LDS Freedom Forum

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 11:08 pm I looked for "priesthood power" in the standard works.

All the results were in D&C or Joseph Smith history. The references mentioning the power of a priesthood (either Aaronic or Melchizedek) were meant all in context of administering ordinances OR having power over offices.

Even in Joseph Smith history: "He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost,"

107: "has power and authority over all the offices in the church"

107: "Melchizedek Priesthood, and has power in administering outward ordinances."

We even have statements saying we are ordained to the power: "provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power"

107: "The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church"

107: "The power and authority of the lesser, or Aaronic Priesthood, is to hold the keys of the ministering of angels, and to administer in outward ordinances, the letter of the gospel, the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins,"

107: "High Priesthood shall have power to call other high priests, even twelve, to assist as counselors; and thus the Presidency of the High Priesthood and its counselors shall have power to decide upon testimony according to the laws of the church."

There are more. These are just the ones from D&C 107 and JS History. There are several that mention "power and keys" together. It even stayes that one is ordained to the power.

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:47 pm

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:36 pm

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:20 pm

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:09 pm

President Nelson gave a talk about it in general conference in November called, "Spiritual Treasures". He drops a bunch of hints about it in his talk. He says if you read these certain scriptures, fast, go to the temple, you will get it. I know where it is taught in the temple, I will not talk about the subject outside of the temple.

I don't doubt that there are hidden treasures of knowledge that I still need to find.

But the core of my question really is why "power" needs the label of priest-group (priesthood). It seems there is a difference between the power of God and "priesthood power", or else we wouldn't have 2 words for them.

But I appreciate your thoughts. I'll read that talk and give it a shot. I'm trying to be a humble learner, but sometimes I'm just not edified when confusing words are used.

Both men and women are given priesthood power in the temple. Only men are ordained to the priesthood.

Ok, I'll bite. What can women do with this power that a worthy woman who hasn't been endowed couldnt do before?

Aprhys wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 11:21 pm And in reality they all have less authority than a drunken, toothless, meth-addicted, inbred, hillbilly who tells then to get the heck off of his property.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 7:42 pm By this theory, a 12 year old boy has more authority than heavenly mother.

A 12 year old has not received his endowment thus has less authority than a woman who has. She has a greater priesthood.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 1:40 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 7:42 pm By this theory, a 12 year old boy has more authority than heavenly mother.

A 12 year old has not received his endowment thus has less authority than a woman who has. She has a greater priesthood.

Not true.
The endowment does not confer authority.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 2:29 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 1:40 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 7:42 pm By this theory, a 12 year old boy has more authority than heavenly mother.

A 12 year old has not received his endowment thus has less authority than a woman who has. She has a greater priesthood.

Not true.
The endowment does not confer authority.

Fine...we can say all day 12 year olds have more authority than grown women but when those 12 year old boys start exercising their “dominion” will the grown men step in and help us weak women from our own children? Or will they sit there and actually tell them they are correct and go about your business.

I’m so glad I didn’t live in the olden days....I would have been stoned.

This is ridiculous. Even comparing men or boys and women...zero at all respect for women.

And no, this was not directed at you, your words just happened to be the umpteenth annoyance for me today over such silly dramatics from men....

No 12 year old boy trumps any endowed member in this church. And 12 year olds wouldn’t ever believe they did.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 7:42 pm By this theory, a 12 year old boy has more authority than heavenly mother.

A 12 year old has not received his endowment thus has less authority than a woman who has. She has a greater priesthood.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 12:50 am

Aprhys wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 11:21 pm And in reality they all have less authority than a drunken, toothless, meth-addicted, inbred, hillbilly who tells then to get the heck off of his property.

Right, maybe because it’s his property, lol.

Stahura wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 3:30 am This whole conversation shows everything that’s wrong with the church today.

What good is this deacons authority and power if even the “greatest” among us don’t work mighty works?

I promise there are women who do work and will work mightier works than this 12 year old deacon , and even more than this sad Mission President. If flaunting your power and authority makes you feel better, go for it.

All of this again just shows how little we value and focus on the doctrine of Christ, how little we understand grace, and faith, and the Spirit. We emphasize our actions, our ordinances, our own authority and power. It gets us nowhere, and the lack of spiritual manifestations is proof of it.

Look at the scriptures. They worked mighty works, saved souls and lives because of faith. They didn’t brag and argue over ordinations and priesthood power. They exercised faith and sacrificed what was required. Do what they did. We have nothing to be proud of, nothing worth flaunting. This conversation is silly .

You can have your authority and power and hang it over women’s heads. As for me, Ill take my ordination at the hands of man, and continue onward patiently seeking the things I know the Lord expects and wants from me. I can tell you this much, the path is a lot more difficult than being born Mormon and having your papi ordain you at 12 years old.

I won’t be responding to the inevitable vitriol, but have at it. Just speaking my mind and dipping.

Sarah wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:00 pm

[email protected] wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 7:04 pm I generally try to avoid the feminst threads lately because I don't think they're very constructive anymore. But they've got me thinking more about just how drastically the Church has changed in the 15 years since I completed my mission.

As most of you know there is a structured leadership hierarchy with in the mission and I used to try to explain it to non-members in terms of military rank structure. These are loose definitions that don't fit exactly but I generally thought of the structure as something like this:

Mission President (MP) - Colonel
Assistant to the President (AP) - Captain (Senior AP I guess would be like a Major)
Zone Leader (ZL) - Leutenant (Senior ZL - 1st LT, junior ZL - 2nd LT)
District Leader (DL) - Seargent
Senior Companion in non-leadership role - Corporal
Junior Companion - Private First Class

Again, I know it doesn't fit exactly but it's how I would explain it to my non-member Air Force/military freinds.

So the Sisters didn't hold leadership roles other than as senior companions. They didn't serve as District or Zone Leaders nor as Assistants to the President. However a few of them served as something called a "Sister Viajante" in Portuguese which I guess would translate to "Traveling Sister". This role was similar in some ways to the APs but their main tasks were focused on training and assisting Sister missionary pairs specifically, and not really on leadership like the roles of AP, ZL/DL for Elders. Many of you know this already especially if you served a mission.

Anyway I'll get to the point. These titles had a way of going to people's heads, both Elders and Sisters, more so for Elders for obvious reasons. However there was one occasion in a Zone Leader confrence I attended towards the end of my mission where a particularly prideful sister made some comment to one of the newer Zone leaders saying she was a "a Sister Viajante" and "knew the proper ways to teach doctrine and relate to investigators". Or something to that effect. I honestly can't remember what triggered the outburst since I missed the first part of the conversation. Right after that the Mission President called her out in front of everyone and said "Do not ever tell a Melchezidek Preisthood holder you're a Sister Viajate. A 12 year old Deacon has more authority than you." That part I remeber and will never forget. He didn't yell at her but his tone was firm. She was silet and I expected her to start crying any minute and I'm fairly certain she did because later she got up and went to the bathroom for like 10 minites.

Sorry about the wall of text but I wanted to give some context to the comment. It was a harsh comment for sure, and it maybe even wasn't appropriate for the mission president to call her out in front of everyone like that. But his statement was true, I didn't doubt it then and I don't doubt it now. This truth seems to be falling out of favor with our Church today unfortunately and giving way to a new "woke gospel" as I and others have taken to calling it.

While she was undoubtedly overconfident in her abilities, I think the Mission President's comment was totally inappropriate. What was wrong with telling the new zone leader that she was a Sister Viajate? I can just see the Mission President telling his wife to stand down and know her place as lower in "authority." This is why this idea of presiding should be taught correctly, that it is not about telling other people what to do.

gkearney wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 5:10 am A 12-year-olds mother clearly has authority over him.

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 7:31 am

Sarah wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:00 pm

[email protected] wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 7:04 pm I generally try to avoid the feminst threads lately because I don't think they're very constructive anymore. But they've got me thinking more about just how drastically the Church has changed in the 15 years since I completed my mission.

As most of you know there is a structured leadership hierarchy with in the mission and I used to try to explain it to non-members in terms of military rank structure. These are loose definitions that don't fit exactly but I generally thought of the structure as something like this:

Mission President (MP) - Colonel
Assistant to the President (AP) - Captain (Senior AP I guess would be like a Major)
Zone Leader (ZL) - Leutenant (Senior ZL - 1st LT, junior ZL - 2nd LT)
District Leader (DL) - Seargent
Senior Companion in non-leadership role - Corporal
Junior Companion - Private First Class

Again, I know it doesn't fit exactly but it's how I would explain it to my non-member Air Force/military freinds.

So the Sisters didn't hold leadership roles other than as senior companions. They didn't serve as District or Zone Leaders nor as Assistants to the President. However a few of them served as something called a "Sister Viajante" in Portuguese which I guess would translate to "Traveling Sister". This role was similar in some ways to the APs but their main tasks were focused on training and assisting Sister missionary pairs specifically, and not really on leadership like the roles of AP, ZL/DL for Elders. Many of you know this already especially if you served a mission.

Anyway I'll get to the point. These titles had a way of going to people's heads, both Elders and Sisters, more so for Elders for obvious reasons. However there was one occasion in a Zone Leader confrence I attended towards the end of my mission where a particularly prideful sister made some comment to one of the newer Zone leaders saying she was a "a Sister Viajante" and "knew the proper ways to teach doctrine and relate to investigators". Or something to that effect. I honestly can't remember what triggered the outburst since I missed the first part of the conversation. Right after that the Mission President called her out in front of everyone and said "Do not ever tell a Melchezidek Preisthood holder you're a Sister Viajate. A 12 year old Deacon has more authority than you." That part I remeber and will never forget. He didn't yell at her but his tone was firm. She was silet and I expected her to start crying any minute and I'm fairly certain she did because later she got up and went to the bathroom for like 10 minites.

Sorry about the wall of text but I wanted to give some context to the comment. It was a harsh comment for sure, and it maybe even wasn't appropriate for the mission president to call her out in front of everyone like that. But his statement was true, I didn't doubt it then and I don't doubt it now. This truth seems to be falling out of favor with our Church today unfortunately and giving way to a new "woke gospel" as I and others have taken to calling it.

While she was undoubtedly overconfident in her abilities, I think the Mission President's comment was totally inappropriate. What was wrong with telling the new zone leader that she was a Sister Viajate? I can just see the Mission President telling his wife to stand down and know her place as lower in "authority." This is why this idea of presiding should be taught correctly, that it is not about telling other people what to do.

There is a phrase called poisoning the well, which is what this sister was doing. A good leader does not allow that to happen so that is why she was corrected. I think the Sister Missionary took the information well but, man that is going to hurt! The Mission President gave her the authority to be a Sister Viajate and she was overstepping her bounds. I really doubt that your example of the mission President telling his wife to know her place is applicable .

johnBob wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 7:50 am

gkearney wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 5:10 am A 12-year-olds mother clearly has authority over him.

Well part of the problem is the we give kids the priesthood. No where in any founding church documents does it specify what we are doing.

Making a 12 year old a deacon simply because of an age marker is an abomination and makes a mockery of the seriousness of priesthood responsibilities and duties.

Sarah wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:18 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 7:31 am

Sarah wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:00 pm

[email protected] wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 7:04 pm I generally try to avoid the feminst threads lately because I don't think they're very constructive anymore. But they've got me thinking more about just how drastically the Church has changed in the 15 years since I completed my mission.

As most of you know there is a structured leadership hierarchy with in the mission and I used to try to explain it to non-members in terms of military rank structure. These are loose definitions that don't fit exactly but I generally thought of the structure as something like this:

Mission President (MP) - Colonel
Assistant to the President (AP) - Captain (Senior AP I guess would be like a Major)
Zone Leader (ZL) - Leutenant (Senior ZL - 1st LT, junior ZL - 2nd LT)
District Leader (DL) - Seargent
Senior Companion in non-leadership role - Corporal
Junior Companion - Private First Class

Again, I know it doesn't fit exactly but it's how I would explain it to my non-member Air Force/military freinds.

So the Sisters didn't hold leadership roles other than as senior companions. They didn't serve as District or Zone Leaders nor as Assistants to the President. However a few of them served as something called a "Sister Viajante" in Portuguese which I guess would translate to "Traveling Sister". This role was similar in some ways to the APs but their main tasks were focused on training and assisting Sister missionary pairs specifically, and not really on leadership like the roles of AP, ZL/DL for Elders. Many of you know this already especially if you served a mission.

Anyway I'll get to the point. These titles had a way of going to people's heads, both Elders and Sisters, more so for Elders for obvious reasons. However there was one occasion in a Zone Leader confrence I attended towards the end of my mission where a particularly prideful sister made some comment to one of the newer Zone leaders saying she was a "a Sister Viajante" and "knew the proper ways to teach doctrine and relate to investigators". Or something to that effect. I honestly can't remember what triggered the outburst since I missed the first part of the conversation. Right after that the Mission President called her out in front of everyone and said "Do not ever tell a Melchezidek Preisthood holder you're a Sister Viajate. A 12 year old Deacon has more authority than you." That part I remeber and will never forget. He didn't yell at her but his tone was firm. She was silet and I expected her to start crying any minute and I'm fairly certain she did because later she got up and went to the bathroom for like 10 minites.

Sorry about the wall of text but I wanted to give some context to the comment. It was a harsh comment for sure, and it maybe even wasn't appropriate for the mission president to call her out in front of everyone like that. But his statement was true, I didn't doubt it then and I don't doubt it now. This truth seems to be falling out of favor with our Church today unfortunately and giving way to a new "woke gospel" as I and others have taken to calling it.

While she was undoubtedly overconfident in her abilities, I think the Mission President's comment was totally inappropriate. What was wrong with telling the new zone leader that she was a Sister Viajate? I can just see the Mission President telling his wife to stand down and know her place as lower in "authority." This is why this idea of presiding should be taught correctly, that it is not about telling other people what to do.

There is a phrase called poisoning the well, which is what this sister was doing. A good leader does not allow that to happen so that is why she was corrected. I think the Sister Missionary took the information well but, man that is going to hurt! The Mission President gave her the authority to be a Sister Viajate and she was overstepping her bounds. I really doubt that your example of the mission President telling his wife to know her place is applicable .

We don't the details of the story and how this sister came across.
I does sound like she was prideful, but there could have been other ways to handle it other than telling her a deacon has authority to tell her what to do. I bet ya if another male zone leader said the same thing to that new zone leader, the MP would have ignored it and reminded him later that he shouldn't feel like he knew more than others just because of his appointment.

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:29 am

Sarah wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:18 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 7:31 am

Sarah wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:00 pm

While she was undoubtedly overconfident in her abilities, I think the Mission President's comment was totally inappropriate. What was wrong with telling the new zone leader that she was a Sister Viajate? I can just see the Mission President telling his wife to stand down and know her place as lower in "authority." This is why this idea of presiding should be taught correctly, that it is not about telling other people what to do.

There is a phrase called poisoning the well, which is what this sister was doing. A good leader does not allow that to happen so that is why she was corrected. I think the Sister Missionary took the information well but, man that is going to hurt! The Mission President gave her the authority to be a Sister Viajate and she was overstepping her bounds. I really doubt that your example of the mission President telling his wife to know her place is applicable .

We don't the details of the story and how this sister came across.
I does sound like she was prideful, but there could have been other ways to handle it other than telling her a deacon has authority to tell her what to do. I bet ya if another male zone leader said the same thing to that new zone leader, the MP would have ignored it and reminded him later that he shouldn't feel like he knew more than others just because of his appointment.

We get enough of the details to know what is going on in the story. For Example the Elders Quorum President can not tell a Primary President how to do her calling. He does not have authority to do so. A Bishop or a member of the Bishopric over Primary does. The Elders are not over the Sisters in the mission field except for the Mission President. So she was overstepping her authority when she was over the Sisters missionaries to correct the Elders.

Sarah wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:44 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:29 am

Sarah wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:18 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 7:31 am

There is a phrase called poisoning the well, which is what this sister was doing. A good leader does not allow that to happen so that is why she was corrected. I think the Sister Missionary took the information well but, man that is going to hurt! The Mission President gave her the authority to be a Sister Viajate and she was overstepping her bounds. I really doubt that your example of the mission President telling his wife to know her place is applicable .

We don't the details of the story and how this sister came across.
I does sound like she was prideful, but there could have been other ways to handle it other than telling her a deacon has authority to tell her what to do. I bet ya if another male zone leader said the same thing to that new zone leader, the MP would have ignored it and reminded him later that he shouldn't feel like he knew more than others just because of his appointment.

We get enough of the details to know what is going on in the story. For Example the Elders Quorum President can not tell a Primary President how to do her calling. He does not have authority to do so. A Bishop or a member of the Bishopric over Primary does. The Elders are not over the Sisters in the mission field except for the Mission President. So she was overstepping her authority when she was over the Sisters missionaries to correct the Elders.

If this is true why in the world would the MP use the example of a deacon having more authority than her when that is not true. The deacon has no authority over her.

And how do we not know that in her mind she was being helpful and it got interrpreted the wrong way. It would be like if my husband got called to be the Elders quorum president, and I told him that as the RS pres I knew how to help people in their temporal and spiritual needs.

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:48 pm

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:38 pm

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:30 pm

[email protected] wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 7:04 pm I generally try to avoid the feminst threads lately because I don't think they're very constructive anymore. But they've got me thinking more about just how drastically the Church has changed in the 15 years since I completed my mission.

As most of you know there is a structured leadership hierarchy with in the mission and I used to try to explain it to non-members in terms of military rank structure. These are loose definitions that don't fit exactly but I generally thought of the structure as something like this:

Mission President (MP) - Colonel
Assistant to the President (AP) - Captain (Senior AP I guess would be like a Major)
Zone Leader (ZL) - Leutenant (Senior ZL - 1st LT, junior ZL - 2nd LT)
District Leader (DL) - Seargent
Senior Companion in non-leadership role - Corporal
Junior Companion - Private First Class

Again, I know it doesn't fit exactly but it's how I would explain it to my non-member Air Force/military freinds.

So the Sisters didn't hold leadership roles other than as senior companions. They didn't serve as District or Zone Leaders nor as Assistants to the President. However a few of them served as something called a "Sister Viajante" in Portuguese which I guess would translate to "Traveling Sister". This role was similar in some ways to the APs but their main tasks were focused on training and assisting Sister missionary pairs specifically, and not really on leadership like the roles of AP, ZL/DL for Elders. Many of you know this already especially if you served a mission.

Anyway I'll get to the point. These titles had a way of going to people's heads, both Elders and Sisters, more so for Elders for obvious reasons. However there was one occasion in a Zone Leader confrence I attended towards the end of my mission where a particularly prideful sister made some comment to one of the newer Zone leaders saying she was a "a Sister Viajante" and "knew the proper ways to teach doctrine and relate to investigators". Or something to that effect. I honestly can't remember what triggered the outburst since I missed the first part of the conversation. Right after that the Mission President called her out in front of everyone and said "Do not ever tell a Melchezidek Preisthood holder you're a Sister Viajate. A 12 year old Deacon has more authority than you." That part I remeber and will never forget. He didn't yell at her but his tone was firm. She was silet and I expected her to start crying any minute and I'm fairly certain she did because later she got up and went to the bathroom for like 10 minites.

Sorry about the wall of text but I wanted to give some context to the comment. It was a harsh comment for sure, and it maybe even wasn't appropriate for the mission president to call her out in front of everyone like that. But his statement was true, I didn't doubt it then and I don't doubt it now. This truth seems to be falling out of favor with our Church today unfortunately and giving way to a new "woke gospel" as I and others have taken to calling it.

God bless that Mission president for telling her the truth. I agree, maybe he should not have said it in public like that, but it remains true.

And no, endowments do not equal priesthood. So please do not make silly claims like that. Priesthood comes by ordination only.

Women receive priesthood in the temple endowment. Priesthood OFFICES come by ordination, but priesthood POWER comes from God alone. Priesthood power is the power to know what God wants you to do, and then to do it. Ordination to a priesthood office is not the same.

President Nelson recently tried to teach this to the women of the church.

No, they dont. They recieve access to priesthood blessings by going through the temple, but they dont recieve any priesthood or power other than the blessings (which are indeed numerous) for temple attendance. President Nelson is in full "appease rabid feminist" mode. You can see the changes made to the endowment were 100.percent for these angry women who dont like to even "hearken to the council of their husbands" mentioned to them. You can spin it all you want, women do not hold priesthood. While it is true that ultimate power comes from God, and many priesthood holders for unworthy reasons will not have it when they want it, it is still impossible for an unordained person, Male or female, to wield priesthood power without having been properly ordained. As the scripture state, "no man taketh this honor upon himself". (That includes sisters)

Again, I am not advocating public shaming, but his statement remains true. A 12 year old deacon holds more authority than the Pope of Rome, a Baptist minister, Jimmy Swaggart or any other tele-evangelist out there. The truth is, they have more authority than any sister in the church as well. You may nor like it, but there you have it. It is an unfortunate truth of how Lord establishes His Kingdom.

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 8:57 amSome are mixing up godly priesthood authority with social hierarchical status.

Yes, the dude with a gun is at the top of the hierarchy of power (at that instance in time in that environment). Yes the mom tells her 12-year-old what to do. In my mind that's a complete different discussion that invokes Jordan Peterson and some game theory experts.

... Joseph Smith said "silence ye fiends of the infernal pit!" against guys who had guns. And they listened. But even then, Joseph wasn't administering saving ordinances. EDIT: Joseph did that rebuking in the name of Jesus Christ. I believe a woman could do the same...

gradles21 wrote: ↑January 18th, 2020, 9:14 am Satan is really good at his job. He has beguiled a lot of women in the church, convincing them more and more to care about this very topic, which really boils down to pride and trying to compete with men. Convincing women in general to ignore their true purpose and to be obsessed with things they don't have, and will never have, has to be one of the serpents greatest accomplishments.