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Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 9:55 pm
by John Tavner
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:47 pm
MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:34 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:20 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:12 pm
We are twisting ourselves sideways trying to appease the more radical elements out there. This is where this "word salad" is coming from. Leadership is using every colorful descriptor imaginable to assure women that they too "have priesthood" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), without actually giving in and having women ordained to the priesthood.
I'll admit, just because somebody is ordained does not make them into any expert or enlightened individual. I have an 11 year old son who is going to be ordained a deacon this year. Does he know more about the gospel, Christ, charity, etc... than my wife or his grandmothers? Absolutely not. He could and should learn from them, just as I do. The fact remains though, no matter how wise, how experienced, how learned anybody is, a true ordination of God's priesthood will still Trump that in authority, even at the deacon level. That is how great God's priesthood is. This is assuming the person in question is a good and honest person, trying to do right. (Before I get jumped on about men not being worthy and other such rot)
I hope you are right because I feel way less stupid under this paradigm.
So can a woman have "priesthood power"? Maybe we need to define what that actually means.
I don’t doubt I could tell a mountain to move some day and it would move. Priesthood power is acting in the name of God. Heavenly mother does whatever it is she does regarding spirit children with priesthood.
But now we're getting into the realm of "The Force" where all things that happen are done by this power. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together. An energy field created by all living things. ...
Okay I took that too far, but
the point I'm trying to make is that if all God's actions are done by this power, I'd think that we'd just call it "the power of God" and be done with it. Where "the priesthood" is "an order" or a group of priests and we claim to be there true order that was instantiated by Christ Himself. under this paradigm, all His children have access to His power through faith. Moving mountains, etc. No need to assign priestly labels to it.
Maybe I'm just simple minded.
Even the idea of priesthood implies relationship. I think that is the key. THe more relationship we have with God, the more "Prieshood" we have. We hear His voice more clearly and know His will. The "hood" we have with him increases - we invite others into the "hood" each becoming priests because as we know Him, He shows us how to administer to others so that they too can know Him. As our "hood" increases so does our authority. THe power remains the same because it is all the power of God. Women, I believe have the same - they have their own "hood" and as their "hood" (relationship) increases the Lord gives them more authority to do in the sphere He has for them. My two cents, take it with a grain of salt.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 9:57 pm
by The East Wind
[email protected] wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 7:04 pm
I generally try to avoid the feminst threads lately because I don't think they're very constructive anymore. But they've got me thinking more about just how drastically the Church has changed in the 15 years since I completed my mission.
As most of you know there is a structured leadership hierarchy with in the mission and I used to try to explain it to non-members in terms of military rank structure. These are loose definitions that don't fit exactly but I generally thought of the structure as something like this:
Mission President (MP) - Colonel
Assistant to the President (AP) - Captain (Senior AP I guess would be like a Major)
Zone Leader (ZL) - Leutenant (Senior ZL - 1st LT, junior ZL - 2nd LT)
District Leader (DL) - Seargent
Senior Companion in non-leadership role - Corporal
Junior Companion - Private First Class
Again, I know it doesn't fit exactly but it's how I would explain it to my non-member Air Force/military freinds.
So the Sisters didn't hold leadership roles other than as senior companions. They didn't serve as District or Zone Leaders nor as Assistants to the President. However a few of them served as something called a "Sister Viajante" in Portuguese which I guess would translate to "Traveling Sister". This role was similar in some ways to the APs but their main tasks were focused on training and assisting Sister missionary pairs specifically, and not really on leadership like the roles of AP, ZL/DL for Elders. Many of you know this already especially if you served a mission.
Anyway I'll get to the point. These titles had a way of going to people's heads, both Elders and Sisters, more so for Elders for obvious reasons. However there was one occasion in a Zone Leader confrence I attended towards the end of my mission where a particularly prideful sister made some comment to one of the newer Zone leaders saying she was a "a Sister Viajante" and "knew the proper ways to teach doctrine and relate to investigators". Or something to that effect. I honestly can't remember what triggered the outburst since I missed the first part of the conversation. Right after that the Mission President called her out in front of everyone and said "Do not ever tell a Melchezidek Preisthood holder you're a Sister Viajate. A 12 year old Deacon has more authority than you." That part I remeber and will never forget. He didn't yell at her but his tone was firm. She was silet and I expected her to start crying any minute and I'm fairly certain she did because later she got up and went to the bathroom for like 10 minites.
Sorry about the wall of text but I wanted to give some context to the comment. It was a harsh comment for sure, and it maybe even wasn't appropriate for the mission president to call her out in front of everyone like that. But his statement was true, I didn't doubt it then and I don't doubt it now. This truth seems to be falling out of favor with our Church today unfortunately and giving way to a new "woke gospel" as I and others have taken to calling it.
If what you say is true then I would say that Mission President is a butt head. Nothing wrong with her relishing her role as a traveling sister. My question is did they also have traveling pants?
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:00 pm
by mahalanobis
John Tavner wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:55 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:47 pm
MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:34 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:20 pm
I hope you are right because I feel way less stupid under this paradigm.
So can a woman have "priesthood power"? Maybe we need to define what that actually means.
I don’t doubt I could tell a mountain to move some day and it would move. Priesthood power is acting in the name of God. Heavenly mother does whatever it is she does regarding spirit children with priesthood.
But now we're getting into the realm of "The Force" where all things that happen are done by this power. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together. An energy field created by all living things. ...
Okay I took that too far, but
the point I'm trying to make is that if all God's actions are done by this power, I'd think that we'd just call it "the power of God" and be done with it. Where "the priesthood" is "an order" or a group of priests and we claim to be there true order that was instantiated by Christ Himself. under this paradigm, all His children have access to His power through faith. Moving mountains, etc. No need to assign priestly labels to it.
Maybe I'm just simple minded.
Even the idea of priesthood implies relationship. I think that is the key. THe more relationship we have with God, the more "Prieshood" we have. We hear His voice more clearly and know His will. The "hood" we have with him increases - we invite others into the "hood" each becoming priests because as we know Him, He shows us how to administer to others so that they too can know Him. As our "hood" increases so does our authority. THe power remains the same because it is all the power of God. Women, I believe have the same - they have their own "hood" and as their "hood" (relationship) increases the Lord gives them more authority to do in the sphere He has for them. My two cents, take it with a grain of salt.
I appreciate your thoughts. I'll think on this.
I still think better words could be chosen. But I'll try to remain open minded. I just think the word 'priest' used to have a clear specific meaning. But we've tacked on so many appendages that it's hard for me to parse what we actually mean when we talk... Even if I agree with the overall core point being made.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:02 pm
by Rick Grimes
Joseph quoted Paul when he was confronted with the prospect of women having priesthood authority.
" Paul told the women of his day, 'to keep silence in the church, and that if they wished to know anything to ask their husbands at home;' he would not suffer a woman 'to rule, ir to usurp authority in the church;' but here, we find a woman the founder of a church, the revelatory and guide, the Alpha and Omega, contrary to all acknowledged rule, principle, and order."
Later Joseph states, "A woman has no right to found or organize a church- God never sent them to do it."
(TotPJS 209 and 212)
Going back to my first point, a woman hold no authority of priesthood. She has rights to priesthood blessings, make no mistake there, but she cannot and does not wield any priesthood here or in the world to come.
This business of left and right side is philosophies of men, mingled with scripture. Women are not the left or right side of any priesthood, just like men are not the left or right side of motherhood. It's not in our design. We compliment each other, but we have different realms of function.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:04 pm
by Rick Grimes
John Tavner wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:45 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:38 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:24 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:39 pm
Hold on, I agree it shouldnt have been public, but you certainly are quick to judge somebody who made a decision in his stewardship. We do not know the circumstances behind this. Maybe this sister was overzealous throwing this title out there and was generating complaints from Elders and members alike. We dont know what else was involved in this, and like was stated, he didnt yell at her. He probably had a follow up conversation with her to show her an increase in love, lest she esteem him as her enemy. Please dont be so hasty as to calling this brother a "scumbag" when you never met him or what he was trying to do in this situation.
Telling a young lady that a 12year old child has "more" than she does is not the way of God. I'm not talking about what she did wrong. I'm talking about what he said to her.
You need to understand women who are baptised with Water&Fire are Priestess of the Most High.
Comparing a priest with a woman of Christ is comparing apple's to oranges, it like comparing the quality of mothers to fathers.
We are the same coin.....BUT different sides
Christ compared the Caananite woman to a dog. Was he also not following the "way of God". Joseph Smith laughed at a man who claimed he could call fire down from Heaven to consume him. He later taunted him with encouragement to "cut himself". Was he also out of line and not following the way of "God". Elijah made fun of the priests and told them to yell louder for Baal, when he wasnt answering their prayers. I could go on. Just because somebody says something kinda mean, doesnt mean it was factually wrong. Again, we dont know the circumstances with this situation, but there are some people here that are quick to Monday morning quarter back this Mission Pres. Maybe the spirit told him to reprove her with sharpness, as the doctrine and covenants state?
As a little clarification Jesus called the woman a small dog or pet dog (the literal translation) It was a play on words because jews called gentiles "wild dogs" or "cur" with unclean being hte meaning. He was saying his duty at the time was to the Jews, not the gentiles.
A distinction without a difference. A dog is a dog, no matter how cute it is.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:09 pm
by Connie561
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:20 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:12 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:48 pm
MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 7:42 pm
By this theory, a 12 year old boy has more authority than heavenly mother.
A 12 year old has not received his endowment thus has less authority than a woman who has. She has a greater priesthood.
I get so confused with all the word padding we've added over the decades.
So a woman can "have" a priesthood, but doesn't "hold" the priesthood. Or maybe it's that she can "hold" it, but she's not "ordained" to an office. Or she has priesthood "power" by virtue of being called and set apart. Then there's "priesthood power" vs. "priesthood authority" vs "priesthood office". Then there's the conference talks that say "Mark my words: the men themselves aren't the priesthood". I don't even disagree per se with these statements. I just can't keep track of them all.
I'm not trying to challenge you. I'm just airing my frustration at the word salad we've created. I'm not even defensive per se. I'm 100% okay with there being "mysteries of God" that I don't understand. However I get rather annoyed when we add to the mysteries by adding 100 definitions and dogmas such that it turns into "mysteries of man".
I'm very open minded to being set straight on this matter btw. I don't care who has more authority than someone else. I simply seek understanding. I'm sure Christ would say (as he did to Nicodemus) "art thou an [Elder] in Israel and knowest not these things?". And I have no answer but to humbly admit that I do not understand.
EDIT: typos
We are twisting ourselves sideways trying to appease the more radical elements out there. This is where this "word salad" is coming from. Leadership is using every colorful descriptor imaginable to assure women that they too "have priesthood" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), without actually giving in and having women ordained to the priesthood.
I'll admit, just because somebody is ordained does not make them into any expert or enlightened individual. I have an 11 year old son who is going to be ordained a deacon this year. Does he know more about the gospel, Christ, charity, etc... than my wife or his grandmothers? Absolutely not. He could and should learn from them, just as I do. The fact remains though, no matter how wise, how experienced, how learned anybody is, a true ordination of God's priesthood will still Trump that in authority, even at the deacon level. That is how great God's priesthood is. This is assuming the person in question is a good and honest person, trying to do right. (Before I get jumped on about men not being worthy and other such rot)
I hope you are right because I feel way less stupid under this paradigm.
So can a woman have "priesthood power"? Maybe we need to define what that actually means.
President Nelson gave a talk about it in general conference in November called, "Spiritual Treasures". He drops a bunch of hints about it in his talk. He says if you read these certain scriptures, fast, go to the temple, you will get it. I know where it is taught in the temple, I will not talk about the subject outside of the temple.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:15 pm
by John Tavner
Alternatively, Bathsheba W. Smith was an original member of the Nauvoo Relief Society, as well as a one of the first women to receive the temple endowment. In 1905, as General President of the Relief Society, she reminded the sisters that Joseph Smith “wanted to make us, as the women were in Paul’s day, ‘A kingdom of priestesses.’
For what it is worth Here is a word for word copy of a Blessing Hyrum Smith gave to an ancestor of mine (Female) .... What i seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven therefore let your mind rest and be a peace concerning this matter henceforth and you shall be blessed also with the administration of the priesthood which holdeth the key of knowledge unto the unfolding of the mysteries of God through the order of God and the administration of His law also by which salvation shall be administered unto you and unto your house and future generations...
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:15 pm
by John Tavner
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:04 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:45 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:38 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:24 pm
Telling a young lady that a 12year old child has "more" than she does is not the way of God. I'm not talking about what she did wrong. I'm talking about what he said to her.
You need to understand women who are baptised with Water&Fire are Priestess of the Most High.
Comparing a priest with a woman of Christ is comparing apple's to oranges, it like comparing the quality of mothers to fathers.
We are the same coin.....BUT different sides
Christ compared the Caananite woman to a dog. Was he also not following the "way of God". Joseph Smith laughed at a man who claimed he could call fire down from Heaven to consume him. He later taunted him with encouragement to "cut himself". Was he also out of line and not following the way of "God". Elijah made fun of the priests and told them to yell louder for Baal, when he wasnt answering their prayers. I could go on. Just because somebody says something kinda mean, doesnt mean it was factually wrong. Again, we dont know the circumstances with this situation, but there are some people here that are quick to Monday morning quarter back this Mission Pres. Maybe the spirit told him to reprove her with sharpness, as the doctrine and covenants state?
As a little clarification Jesus called the woman a small dog or pet dog (the literal translation) It was a play on words because jews called gentiles "wild dogs" or "cur" with unclean being hte meaning. He was saying his duty at the time was to the Jews, not the gentiles.
A distinction without a difference. A dog is a dog, no matter how cute it is.
Dog = gentile in his parlance, not a pejorative. Indeed he didn't even call her an "unclean gentile" just a gentile" There is a distinction.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:18 pm
by Rick Grimes
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:47 pm
MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:34 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:20 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:12 pm
We are twisting ourselves sideways trying to appease the more radical elements out there. This is where this "word salad" is coming from. Leadership is using every colorful descriptor imaginable to assure women that they too "have priesthood" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), without actually giving in and having women ordained to the priesthood.
I'll admit, just because somebody is ordained does not make them into any expert or enlightened individual. I have an 11 year old son who is going to be ordained a deacon this year. Does he know more about the gospel, Christ, charity, etc... than my wife or his grandmothers? Absolutely not. He could and should learn from them, just as I do. The fact remains though, no matter how wise, how experienced, how learned anybody is, a true ordination of God's priesthood will still Trump that in authority, even at the deacon level. That is how great God's priesthood is. This is assuming the person in question is a good and honest person, trying to do right. (Before I get jumped on about men not being worthy and other such rot)
I hope you are right because I feel way less stupid under this paradigm.
So can a woman have "priesthood power"? Maybe we need to define what that actually means.
I don’t doubt I could tell a mountain to move some day and it would move. Priesthood power is acting in the name of God. Heavenly mother does whatever it is she does regarding spirit children with priesthood.
But now we're getting into the realm of "The Force" where all things that happen are done by this power. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together. An energy field created by all living things. ...
Okay I took that too far, but
the point I'm trying to make is that if all God's actions are done by this power, I'd think that we'd just call it "the power of God" and be done with it. Where "the priesthood" is "an order" or a group of priests and we claim to be there true order that was instantiated by Christ Himself. under this paradigm, all His children have access to His power through faith. Moving mountains, etc. No need to assign priestly labels to it.
Maybe I'm just simple minded.
It used to be simple and easy to understand. But then we had to word things so people wont be offended. It's not just priesthood that is being redefined, its truths in the BOM that have been disavowed. Alma states that the lamanites were cursed with dark skin as a mark to distinguish them from nephites so they wouldnt mingle their seed with unbelievers. Yet, the church now "disavows" this truth by simply stating that we dont believe dark skin was ever used to show disfavor with God. What??! The BOM says exactly that is what it was about.
Now we have leaders saying "women also hold priesthood power". So then why even have priesthood blessings? Why not just have them perform ordinances with this power they now have? If there is confusion it is because we are retreating from previously taught truths, that are now being skirted under the rug so we dont offend people who are so easily offended.
I understand that Pres. Nelson is only trying to mitigate the damage and try and keep as many people that he can by appeasing them, if only temporarily. Hopefully, during the interval, they can gain a more sure testimony and not run off when the truth is presented to them as it really is.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:20 pm
by mahalanobis
Connie561 wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:09 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:20 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:12 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 8:48 pm
I get so confused with all the word padding we've added over the decades.
So a woman can "have" a priesthood, but doesn't "hold" the priesthood. Or maybe it's that she can "hold" it, but she's not "ordained" to an office. Or she has priesthood "power" by virtue of being called and set apart. Then there's "priesthood power" vs. "priesthood authority" vs "priesthood office". Then there's the conference talks that say "Mark my words: the men themselves aren't the priesthood". I don't even disagree per se with these statements. I just can't keep track of them all.
I'm not trying to challenge you. I'm just airing my frustration at the word salad we've created. I'm not even defensive per se. I'm 100% okay with there being "mysteries of God" that I don't understand. However I get rather annoyed when we add to the mysteries by adding 100 definitions and dogmas such that it turns into "mysteries of man".
I'm very open minded to being set straight on this matter btw. I don't care who has more authority than someone else. I simply seek understanding. I'm sure Christ would say (as he did to Nicodemus) "art thou an [Elder] in Israel and knowest not these things?". And I have no answer but to humbly admit that I do not understand.
EDIT: typos
We are twisting ourselves sideways trying to appease the more radical elements out there. This is where this "word salad" is coming from. Leadership is using every colorful descriptor imaginable to assure women that they too "have priesthood" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), without actually giving in and having women ordained to the priesthood.
I'll admit, just because somebody is ordained does not make them into any expert or enlightened individual. I have an 11 year old son who is going to be ordained a deacon this year. Does he know more about the gospel, Christ, charity, etc... than my wife or his grandmothers? Absolutely not. He could and should learn from them, just as I do. The fact remains though, no matter how wise, how experienced, how learned anybody is, a true ordination of God's priesthood will still Trump that in authority, even at the deacon level. That is how great God's priesthood is. This is assuming the person in question is a good and honest person, trying to do right. (Before I get jumped on about men not being worthy and other such rot)
I hope you are right because I feel way less stupid under this paradigm.
So can a woman have "priesthood power"? Maybe we need to define what that actually means.
President Nelson gave a talk about it in general conference in November called, "Spiritual Treasures". He drops a bunch of hints about it in his talk. He says if you read these certain scriptures, fast, go to the temple, you will get it. I know where it is taught in the temple, I will not talk about the subject outside of the temple.
I don't doubt that there are hidden treasures of knowledge that I still need to find.
But the core of my question really is why "power" needs the label of priest-group (priesthood). It seems there is a difference between the power of God and "priesthood power", or else we wouldn't have 2 words for them.
But I appreciate your thoughts. I'll read that talk and give it a shot. I'm trying to be a humble learner, but sometimes I'm just not edified when confusing words are used.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:23 pm
by MMbelieve
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:47 pm
MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:34 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:20 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:12 pm
We are twisting ourselves sideways trying to appease the more radical elements out there. This is where this "word salad" is coming from. Leadership is using every colorful descriptor imaginable to assure women that they too "have priesthood" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), without actually giving in and having women ordained to the priesthood.
I'll admit, just because somebody is ordained does not make them into any expert or enlightened individual. I have an 11 year old son who is going to be ordained a deacon this year. Does he know more about the gospel, Christ, charity, etc... than my wife or his grandmothers? Absolutely not. He could and should learn from them, just as I do. The fact remains though, no matter how wise, how experienced, how learned anybody is, a true ordination of God's priesthood will still Trump that in authority, even at the deacon level. That is how great God's priesthood is. This is assuming the person in question is a good and honest person, trying to do right. (Before I get jumped on about men not being worthy and other such rot)
I hope you are right because I feel way less stupid under this paradigm.
So can a woman have "priesthood power"? Maybe we need to define what that actually means.
I don’t doubt I could tell a mountain to move some day and it would move. Priesthood power is acting in the name of God. Heavenly mother does whatever it is she does regarding spirit children with priesthood.
But now we're getting into the realm of "The Force" where all things that happen are done by this power. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together. An energy field created by all living things. ...
Okay I took that too far, but
the point I'm trying to make is that if all God's actions are done by this power, I'd think that we'd just call it "the power of God" and be done with it. Where "the priesthood" is "an order" or a group of priests and we claim to be there true order that was instantiated by Christ Himself. under this paradigm, all His children have access to His power through faith. Moving mountains, etc. No need to assign priestly labels to it.
Maybe I'm just simple minded.
Hey, you have a manual and instructions and a path laid out for you as a man...no real questions that cannot easily be answered regarding your role in the priesthood order with examples found today, in scripture and in Christ and God.
Try having the prophet tell you that you have something but it’s up to you to figure it out because there is no manual nor answer available except through personal revelation. And then told to operate and act in this thing that no one can help you with knowing how to and without any example WITH backlash that by him merely stating this to women that all women have just offended a great deal of men. That’s where the prophet placed women.
My advice to you is to just operate in your role and support your wife in whatever it is she has figured out about this mysterious mission she was given. If the HG is what is to reveal to women what the prophet has told and asked of women then you surely won’t find the answers on a forum to the questions you have
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:24 pm
by Rick Grimes
John Tavner wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:15 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:04 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:45 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:38 pm
Christ compared the Caananite woman to a dog. Was he also not following the "way of God". Joseph Smith laughed at a man who claimed he could call fire down from Heaven to consume him. He later taunted him with encouragement to "cut himself". Was he also out of line and not following the way of "God". Elijah made fun of the priests and told them to yell louder for Baal, when he wasnt answering their prayers. I could go on. Just because somebody says something kinda mean, doesnt mean it was factually wrong. Again, we dont know the circumstances with this situation, but there are some people here that are quick to Monday morning quarter back this Mission Pres. Maybe the spirit told him to reprove her with sharpness, as the doctrine and covenants state?
As a little clarification Jesus called the woman a small dog or pet dog (the literal translation) It was a play on words because jews called gentiles "wild dogs" or "cur" with unclean being hte meaning. He was saying his duty at the time was to the Jews, not the gentiles.
A distinction without a difference. A dog is a dog, no matter how cute it is.
Dog = gentile in his parlance, not a pejorative. Indeed he didn't even call her an "unclean gentile" just a gentile" There is a distinction.
So being called a "poodle" is better than being called a dog? Doesnt make sense, but if that's how you see it.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:27 pm
by MMbelieve
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:20 pm
Connie561 wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:09 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:20 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:12 pm
We are twisting ourselves sideways trying to appease the more radical elements out there. This is where this "word salad" is coming from. Leadership is using every colorful descriptor imaginable to assure women that they too "have priesthood" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), without actually giving in and having women ordained to the priesthood.
I'll admit, just because somebody is ordained does not make them into any expert or enlightened individual. I have an 11 year old son who is going to be ordained a deacon this year. Does he know more about the gospel, Christ, charity, etc... than my wife or his grandmothers? Absolutely not. He could and should learn from them, just as I do. The fact remains though, no matter how wise, how experienced, how learned anybody is, a true ordination of God's priesthood will still Trump that in authority, even at the deacon level. That is how great God's priesthood is. This is assuming the person in question is a good and honest person, trying to do right. (Before I get jumped on about men not being worthy and other such rot)
I hope you are right because I feel way less stupid under this paradigm.
So can a woman have "priesthood power"? Maybe we need to define what that actually means.
President Nelson gave a talk about it in general conference in November called, "Spiritual Treasures". He drops a bunch of hints about it in his talk. He says if you read these certain scriptures, fast, go to the temple, you will get it. I know where it is taught in the temple, I will not talk about the subject outside of the temple.
I don't doubt that there are hidden treasures of knowledge that I still need to find.
But the core of my question really is why "power" needs the label of priest-group (priesthood). It seems there is a difference between the power of God and "priesthood power", or else we wouldn't have 2 words for them.
But I appreciate your thoughts. I'll read that talk and give it a shot. I'm trying to be a humble learner, but sometimes I'm just not edified when confusing words are used.
Maybe your having a stupor of thought? When this happens to me I know I am on the wrong path or paper trail and need to back up because something influential was missed which lead me to basically a dead end in my quest to understand. Or possibly, the answer is waiting you another time?
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:30 pm
by Rick Grimes
MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:23 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:47 pm
MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:34 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:20 pm
I hope you are right because I feel way less stupid under this paradigm.
So can a woman have "priesthood power"? Maybe we need to define what that actually means.
I don’t doubt I could tell a mountain to move some day and it would move. Priesthood power is acting in the name of God. Heavenly mother does whatever it is she does regarding spirit children with priesthood.
But now we're getting into the realm of "The Force" where all things that happen are done by this power. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together. An energy field created by all living things. ...
Okay I took that too far, but
the point I'm trying to make is that if all God's actions are done by this power, I'd think that we'd just call it "the power of God" and be done with it. Where "the priesthood" is "an order" or a group of priests and we claim to be there true order that was instantiated by Christ Himself. under this paradigm, all His children have access to His power through faith. Moving mountains, etc. No need to assign priestly labels to it.
Maybe I'm just simple minded.
Hey, you have a manual and instructions and a path laid out for you as a man...no real questions that cannot easily be answered regarding your role in the priesthood order with examples found today, in scripture and in Christ and God.
Try having the prophet tell you that you have something but it’s up to you to figure it out because there is no manual nor answer available except through personal revelation. And then told to operate and act in this thing that no one can help you with knowing how to and without any example WITH backlash that by him merely stating this to women that all women have just offended a great deal of men. That’s where the prophet placed women.
My advice to you is to just operate in your role and support your wife in whatever it is she has figured out about this mysterious mission she was given. If the HG is what is to reveal to women what the prophet has told and asked of women then you surely won’t find the answers on a forum to the questions you have
The only reason to be "offended" is because it is a play on words to say what they are saying without scripture, or otherwise to back it up. This extends to other recent changes that have been rolled out to appease the radicals out there. That's the offense many of us are seeing, is the watering down of plain and precious truths to satisfy the worldly demand of everyone being the same, which we are clearly not.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:33 pm
by Thinker
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:34 pm
by MMbelieve
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:02 pm
Joseph quoted Paul when he was confronted with the prospect of women having priesthood authority.
" Paul told the women of his day, 'to keep silence in the church, and that if they wished to know anything to ask their husbands at home;' he would not suffer a woman 'to rule, ir to usurp authority in the church;' but here, we find a woman the founder of a church, the revelatory and guide, the Alpha and Omega, contrary to all acknowledged rule, principle, and order."
Later Joseph states, "A woman has no right to found or organize a church- God never sent them to do it."
(TotPJS 209 and 212)
Going back to my first point, a woman hold no authority of priesthood. She has rights to priesthood blessings, make no mistake there, but she cannot and does not wield any priesthood here or in the world to come.
This business of left and right side is philosophies of men, mingled with scripture. Women are not the left or right side of any priesthood, just like men are not the left or right side of motherhood. It's not in our design. We compliment each other, but we have different realms of function.
“We compliment each other, but have different realms of function”
Exactly, the left and right (different realms) of what? The same object (compliment).
Women are most definitely not the right or left of the priesthood, that is absolutely true.
Because if that was the case, the object would be the priesthood and that is incorrect. The object is male/female becoming one with each having their part. There literally is no division of priesthood because it cannot be divided.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:36 pm
by Connie561
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:20 pm
Connie561 wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:09 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:20 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:12 pm
We are twisting ourselves sideways trying to appease the more radical elements out there. This is where this "word salad" is coming from. Leadership is using every colorful descriptor imaginable to assure women that they too "have priesthood" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), without actually giving in and having women ordained to the priesthood.
I'll admit, just because somebody is ordained does not make them into any expert or enlightened individual. I have an 11 year old son who is going to be ordained a deacon this year. Does he know more about the gospel, Christ, charity, etc... than my wife or his grandmothers? Absolutely not. He could and should learn from them, just as I do. The fact remains though, no matter how wise, how experienced, how learned anybody is, a true ordination of God's priesthood will still Trump that in authority, even at the deacon level. That is how great God's priesthood is. This is assuming the person in question is a good and honest person, trying to do right. (Before I get jumped on about men not being worthy and other such rot)
I hope you are right because I feel way less stupid under this paradigm.
So can a woman have "priesthood power"? Maybe we need to define what that actually means.
President Nelson gave a talk about it in general conference in November called, "Spiritual Treasures". He drops a bunch of hints about it in his talk. He says if you read these certain scriptures, fast, go to the temple, you will get it. I know where it is taught in the temple, I will not talk about the subject outside of the temple.
I don't doubt that there are hidden treasures of knowledge that I still need to find.
But the core of my question really is why "power" needs the label of priest-group (priesthood). It seems there is a difference between the power of God and "priesthood power", or else we wouldn't have 2 words for them.
But I appreciate your thoughts. I'll read that talk and give it a shot. I'm trying to be a humble learner, but sometimes I'm just not edified when confusing words are used.
Both men and women are given priesthood power in the temple. Only men are ordained to the priesthood.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:39 pm
by Connie561
John Tavner wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:15 pm
Alternatively, Bathsheba W. Smith was an original member of the Nauvoo Relief Society, as well as a one of the first women to receive the temple endowment. In 1905, as General President of the Relief Society, she reminded the sisters that Joseph Smith “wanted to make us, as the women were in Paul’s day, ‘A kingdom of priestesses.’
For what it is worth Here is a word for word copy of a Blessing Hyrum Smith gave to an ancestor of mine (Female) .... What i seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven therefore let your mind rest and be a peace concerning this matter henceforth and you shall be blessed also with the administration of the priesthood which holdeth the key of knowledge unto the unfolding of the mysteries of God through the order of God and the administration of His law also by which salvation shall be administered unto you and unto your house and future generations...
The blessing sounds like a description of priesthood power.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:45 pm
by John Tavner
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:24 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:15 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:04 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:45 pm
As a little clarification Jesus called the woman a small dog or pet dog (the literal translation) It was a play on words because jews called gentiles "wild dogs" or "cur" with unclean being hte meaning. He was saying his duty at the time was to the Jews, not the gentiles.
A distinction without a difference. A dog is a dog, no matter how cute it is.
Dog = gentile in his parlance, not a pejorative. Indeed he didn't even call her an "unclean gentile" just a gentile" There is a distinction.
So being called a "poodle" is better than being called a dog? Doesnt make sense, but if that's how you see it.
The woman knew she was a gentile and even identified herself a dog. This story is really really fascinating. IT goes even deeper. Especially when you study numbers and the hebrew meaning behind them. She had to overcome self to come to Jesus. the number 3 comes to mind. 1) at first she is ignored - in the world she lives in, as a gentile she is ignored - she must continue to persist despite feeling like she isn't worth anything in her own mind (how she sees self) 2) the Lord finally answers her and as you say calls her a " pet dog" or a gentile who is not wild, but reminds her that all the jews see her as a "wild dog" She persists and recognizes that is how she is viewed by others, but 3) the final step is where she persists in humility calling herself a dog and admitting it, but saying that even pet dogs get crumbs or spiritual blessings from the family. She is then confirmed of who she is in God's eyes. So to recap she had to overcome 3 stages in order to receive fully fromthe Lord 1) overcome view of self 2) overcome view of others 3) Accept her place but also see herself in the Lord's eyes and see how she was truly seen by the Lord.
Likewise in our own journey we must overcome the view of self, the view of others, and then see who we are, but also rejoice in the mercy of the Lord for making us something more.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:47 pm
by Rick Grimes
Connie561 wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:36 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:20 pm
Connie561 wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:09 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:20 pm
I hope you are right because I feel way less stupid under this paradigm.
So can a woman have "priesthood power"? Maybe we need to define what that actually means.
President Nelson gave a talk about it in general conference in November called, "Spiritual Treasures". He drops a bunch of hints about it in his talk. He says if you read these certain scriptures, fast, go to the temple, you will get it. I know where it is taught in the temple, I will not talk about the subject outside of the temple.
I don't doubt that there are hidden treasures of knowledge that I still need to find.
But the core of my question really is why "power" needs the label of priest-group (priesthood). It seems there is a difference between the power of God and "priesthood power", or else we wouldn't have 2 words for them.
But I appreciate your thoughts. I'll read that talk and give it a shot. I'm trying to be a humble learner, but sometimes I'm just not edified when confusing words are used.
Both men and women are given priesthood power in the temple. Only men are ordained to the priesthood.
Ok, I'll bite. What can women do with this power that a worthy woman who hasn't been endowed couldnt do before?
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:54 pm
by MMbelieve
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:30 pm
MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:23 pm
Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:47 pm
MMbelieve wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 9:34 pm
I don’t doubt I could tell a mountain to move some day and it would move. Priesthood power is acting in the name of God. Heavenly mother does whatever it is she does regarding spirit children with priesthood.
But now we're getting into the realm of "The Force" where all things that happen are done by this power. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together. An energy field created by all living things. ...
Okay I took that too far, but
the point I'm trying to make is that if all God's actions are done by this power, I'd think that we'd just call it "the power of God" and be done with it. Where "the priesthood" is "an order" or a group of priests and we claim to be there true order that was instantiated by Christ Himself. under this paradigm, all His children have access to His power through faith. Moving mountains, etc. No need to assign priestly labels to it.
Maybe I'm just simple minded.
Hey, you have a manual and instructions and a path laid out for you as a man...no real questions that cannot easily be answered regarding your role in the priesthood order with examples found today, in scripture and in Christ and God.
Try having the prophet tell you that you have something but it’s up to you to figure it out because there is no manual nor answer available except through personal revelation. And then told to operate and act in this thing that no one can help you with knowing how to and without any example WITH backlash that by him merely stating this to women that all women have just offended a great deal of men. That’s where the prophet placed women.
My advice to you is to just operate in your role and support your wife in whatever it is she has figured out about this mysterious mission she was given. If the HG is what is to reveal to women what the prophet has told and asked of women then you surely won’t find the answers on a forum to the questions you have
The only reason to be "offended" is because it is a play on words to say what they are saying without scripture, or otherwise to back it up. This extends to other recent changes that have been rolled out to appease the radicals out there. That's the offense many of us are seeing, is the watering down of plain and precious truths to satisfy the worldly demand of everyone being the same, which we are clearly not.
Pretty sure the intention is something other than to convince women and men that they are the same thing. No one even believes that anyways. I haven’t run into anyone who believes men and women are the same in anything. Quite the opposite really.
I honestly didn’t find Nelson’s words to be to giving towards any radicals or feminist. Hear me out....I read and listened to both this last talk and the one before it that preluded it. I think there was hype and excitement among women to accompany their confusion and questions. The hype should have calmed already and now women can really begin to think about what was really said.
Some was useful to me, the stuff that helped explain what the endowment is (which is beneficial for everyone endowed).
But when he asked us to read D&C section about Emma...nothing special at all. I actually saw it as reminding women that they need to honor the priesthood as a distinction between men’s callings and authority and women being separate yet able to act in understanding and conveying scriptures. And the other scripture section was completely about understanding the offices and ordinations and the accompanying duties of them all regarding men. If women got they have what men have from those sections they need to get some fresh air and read it again.
So....possibly Nelson used his charm and intelligence and reverse psychology to teach women the order of the priesthood rests on men and women are encouraged to support it and understand it and help their men hold true to their roles. And that nothing about being a woman means she is not allowed to benefit, receive blessings of or call upon God when she needs him. Women did need to hear this.
The information on understanding what endowment is was really the only thing I found so far that is beneficial to me. I don’t feel I gained anything extra at all but more expectation to be stronger and convicted in the gospel. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if this and the sealing, endowment changes are merely to wake women up to be more aware and responsible and better at being women.
Have to be more creative when speaking to women, they do not respond to negative angles or sentiments at all. But I don’t know, I just had the thought come to me during this reply. Again, I think people need to really listen and read again and reevaluate.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 10:56 pm
by MMbelieve
John Tavner wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:45 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:24 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:15 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:04 pm
A distinction without a difference. A dog is a dog, no matter how cute it is.
Dog = gentile in his parlance, not a pejorative. Indeed he didn't even call her an "unclean gentile" just a gentile" There is a distinction.
So being called a "poodle" is better than being called a dog? Doesnt make sense, but if that's how you see it.
The woman knew she was a gentile and even identified herself a dog. This story is really really fascinating. IT goes even deeper. Especially when you study numbers and the hebrew meaning behind them. She had to overcome self to come to Jesus. the number 3 comes to mind. 1) at first she is ignored - in the world she lives in, as a gentile she is ignored - she must continue to persist despite feeling like she isn't worth anything in her own mind (how she sees self) 2) the Lord finally answers her and as you say calls her a " pet dog" or a gentile who is not wild, but reminds her that all the jews see her as a "wild dog" She persists and recognizes that is how she is viewed by others, but 3) the final step is where she persists in humility calling herself a dog and admitting it, but saying that even pet dogs get crumbs or spiritual blessings from the family. She is then confirmed of who she is in God's eyes. So to recap she had to overcome 3 stages in order to receive fully fromthe Lord 1) overcome view of self 2) overcome view of others 3) Accept her place but also see herself in the Lord's eyes and see how she was truly seen by the Lord.
Likewise in our own journey we must overcome the view of self, the view of others, and then see who we are, but also rejoice in the mercy of the Lord for making us something more.
Fascinating insight. Thank you. I will have to go read this with fresh eyes.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 11:08 pm
by mahalanobis
I looked for "priesthood power" in the standard works.
All the results were in D&C or Joseph Smith history. The references mentioning the power of a priesthood (either Aaronic or Melchizedek) were meant all in context of administering ordinances OR having power over offices.
Even in Joseph Smith history: "He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost,"
107: "has power and authority over all the offices in the church"
107: "Melchizedek Priesthood, and has power in administering outward ordinances."
We even have statements saying we are ordained to the power: "provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power"
107: "The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church"
107: "The power and authority of the lesser, or Aaronic Priesthood, is to hold the keys of the ministering of angels, and to administer in outward ordinances, the letter of the gospel, the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins,"
107: "High Priesthood shall have power to call other high priests, even twelve, to assist as counselors; and thus the Presidency of the High Priesthood and its counselors shall have power to decide upon testimony according to the laws of the church."
There are more. These are just the ones from D&C 107 and JS History. There are several that mention "power and keys" together. It even stayes that one is ordained to the power.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 11:15 pm
by Rick Grimes
John Tavner wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:45 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:24 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:15 pm
Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 17th, 2020, 10:04 pm
A distinction without a difference. A dog is a dog, no matter how cute it is.
Dog = gentile in his parlance, not a pejorative. Indeed he didn't even call her an "unclean gentile" just a gentile" There is a distinction.
So being called a "poodle" is better than being called a dog? Doesnt make sense, but if that's how you see it.
The woman knew she was a gentile and even identified herself a dog. This story is really really fascinating. IT goes even deeper. Especially when you study numbers and the hebrew meaning behind them. She had to overcome self to come to Jesus. the number 3 comes to mind. 1) at first she is ignored - in the world she lives in, as a gentile she is ignored - she must continue to persist despite feeling like she isn't worth anything in her own mind (how she sees self) 2) the Lord finally answers her and as you say calls her a " pet dog" or a gentile who is not wild, but reminds her that all the jews see her as a "wild dog" She persists and recognizes that is how she is viewed by others, but 3) the final step is where she persists in humility calling herself a dog and admitting it, but saying that even pet dogs get crumbs or spiritual blessings from the family. She is then confirmed of who she is in God's eyes. So to recap she had to overcome 3 stages in order to receive fully fromthe Lord 1) overcome view of self 2) overcome view of others 3) Accept her place but also see herself in the Lord's eyes and see how she was truly seen by the Lord.
Likewise in our own journey we must overcome the view of self, the view of others, and then see who we are, but also rejoice in the mercy of the Lord for making us something more.
John, it is indeed a fascinating story. I dont know about numbers, but the Caananite woman is somebody to be admired. I taught a lesson this last year about it and I thought it admirable how she took what should have been percieved as an insult and displayed true and genuine humility, when most others would have been outraged. Remember, the Jews didnt care for the Caananites because they worshiped idols and even practiced in child sacrifice. The Lord explaining to her that he was sent only to the Lost sheep of Israel then stating that the gospel should not be taken from the children to feed the dogs(gentiles or other unbelievers) could have been taken very poorly. To the womans credit, she responded most wisely by owning the term "dog" and responding that even the dogs get scraps. To which the Savior then ministered unto her. Wow!! What a great display of humility, perseverance, by the woman and love and mercy by the Savior, to bend His mandate and teach somebody who was not part of His Earthly mission.
It reminds me of the parable of the woman and the unjust judge. (Not that Chriat was unjust) But again, a woman who continues to plea her case to a judge despite the odds of him changing his ruling, and then finally getting him to relent. I think there is something of value in both of these accounts.
Re: "A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"
Posted: January 17th, 2020, 11:21 pm
by Aprhys
And in reality they all have less authority than a drunken, toothless, meth-addicted, inbred, hillbilly who tells then to get the heck off of his property.
