"A 12 year old deacon has more authority than you do!"

[[email protected]]

I generally try to avoid the feminst threads lately because I don't think they're very constructive anymore. But they've got me thinking more about just how drastically the Church has changed in the 15 years since I completed my mission.

As most of you know there is a structured leadership hierarchy with in the mission and I used to try to explain it to non-members in terms of military rank structure. These are loose definitions that don't fit exactly but I generally thought of the structure as something like this:

Mission President (MP) - Colonel
Assistant to the President (AP) - Captain (Senior AP I guess would be like a Major)
Zone Leader (ZL) - Leutenant (Senior ZL - 1st LT, junior ZL - 2nd LT)
District Leader (DL) - Seargent
Senior Companion in non-leadership role - Corporal
Junior Companion - Private First Class

Again, I know it doesn't fit exactly but it's how I would explain it to my non-member Air Force/military freinds.

So the Sisters didn't hold leadership roles other than as senior companions. They didn't serve as District or Zone Leaders nor as Assistants to the President. However a few of them served as something called a "Sister Viajante" in Portuguese which I guess would translate to "Traveling Sister". This role was similar in some ways to the APs but their main tasks were focused on training and assisting Sister missionary pairs specifically, and not really on leadership like the roles of AP, ZL/DL for Elders. Many of you know this already especially if you served a mission.

Anyway I'll get to the point. These titles had a way of going to people's heads, both Elders and Sisters, more so for Elders for obvious reasons. However there was one occasion in a Zone Leader confrence I attended towards the end of my mission where a particularly prideful sister made some comment to one of the newer Zone leaders saying she was a "a Sister Viajante" and "knew the proper ways to teach doctrine and relate to investigators". Or something to that effect. I honestly can't remember what triggered the outburst since I missed the first part of the conversation. Right after that the Mission President called her out in front of everyone and said "Do not ever tell a Melchezidek Preisthood holder you're a Sister Viajate. A 12 year old Deacon has more authority than you." That part I remeber and will never forget. He didn't yell at her but his tone was firm. She was silet and I expected her to start crying any minute and I'm fairly certain she did because later she got up and went to the bathroom for like 10 minites.

Sorry about the wall of text but I wanted to give some context to the comment. It was a harsh comment for sure, and it maybe even wasn't appropriate for the mission president to call her out in front of everyone like that. But his statement was true, I didn't doubt it then and I don't doubt it now. This truth seems to be falling out of favor with our Church today unfortunately and giving way to a new "woke gospel" as I and others have taken to calling it.

[MMbelieve]

By this theory, a 12 year old boy has more authority than heavenly mother.

A 12 year old has not received his endowment thus has less authority than a woman who has. She has a greater priesthood.

[Sarah]

I generally try to avoid the feminst threads lately because I don't think they're very constructive anymore. But they've got me thinking more about just how drastically the Church has changed in the 15 years since I completed my mission.

As most of you know there is a structured leadership hierarchy with in the mission and I used to try to explain it to non-members in terms of military rank structure. These are loose definitions that don't fit exactly but I generally thought of the structure as something like this:

Mission President (MP) - Colonel
Assistant to the President (AP) - Captain (Senior AP I guess would be like a Major)
Zone Leader (ZL) - Leutenant (Senior ZL - 1st LT, junior ZL - 2nd LT)
District Leader (DL) - Seargent
Senior Companion in non-leadership role - Corporal
Junior Companion - Private First Class

Again, I know it doesn't fit exactly but it's how I would explain it to my non-member Air Force/military freinds.

So the Sisters didn't hold leadership roles other than as senior companions. They didn't serve as District or Zone Leaders nor as Assistants to the President. However a few of them served as something called a "Sister Viajante" in Portuguese which I guess would translate to "Traveling Sister". This role was similar in some ways to the APs but their main tasks were focused on training and assisting Sister missionary pairs specifically, and not really on leadership like the roles of AP, ZL/DL for Elders. Many of you know this already especially if you served a mission.

Anyway I'll get to the point. These titles had a way of going to people's heads, both Elders and Sisters, more so for Elders for obvious reasons. However there was one occasion in a Zone Leader confrence I attended towards the end of my mission where a particularly prideful sister made some comment to one of the newer Zone leaders saying she was a "a Sister Viajante" and "knew the proper ways to teach doctrine and relate to investigators". Or something to that effect. I honestly can't remember what triggered the outburst since I missed the first part of the conversation. Right after that the Mission President called her out in front of everyone and said "Do not ever tell a Melchezidek Preisthood holder you're a Sister Viajate. A 12 year old Deacon has more authority than you." That part I remeber and will never forget. He didn't yell at her but his tone was firm. She was silet and I expected her to start crying any minute and I'm fairly certain she did because later she got up and went to the bathroom for like 10 minites.

Sorry about the wall of text but I wanted to give some context to the comment. It was a harsh comment for sure, and it maybe even wasn't appropriate for the mission president to call her out in front of everyone like that. But his statement was true, I didn't doubt it then and I don't doubt it now. This truth seems to be falling out of favor with our Church today unfortunately and giving way to a new "woke gospel" as I and others have taken to calling it.

While she was undoubtedly overconfident in her abilities, I think the Mission President's comment was totally inappropriate. What was wrong with telling the new zone leader that she was a Sister Viajate? I can just see the Mission President telling his wife to stand down and know her place as lower in "authority." This is why this idea of presiding should be taught correctly, that it is not about telling other people what to do.

[h_p]

Right after that the Mission President called her out in front of everyone and said "Do not ever tell a Melchezidek Preisthood holder you're a Sister Viajate. A 12 year old Deacon has more authority than you."

With that kind of attitude, while this MP may have had authority because of his office, he surely no priesthood power.

[Juliet]

Maybe he has keys to be mission president but he certainly lost the keys to his brain.

A deacon has the authority to do some administrations in the church a sister has not been given by the laying on of hands. But this authority is not a hierarchy, it is a key for a purpose.

Saying someone has more authority than someone else doesn't make them worth more as the mission president assumed. We are all created equally and we all have a divine birthright.

Heavenly Father has promised me blessings as much as he has any other person. Authority has nothing to do with someone's value.

[Rick Grimes]

I generally try to avoid the feminst threads lately because I don't think they're very constructive anymore. But they've got me thinking more about just how drastically the Church has changed in the 15 years since I completed my mission.

As most of you know there is a structured leadership hierarchy with in the mission and I used to try to explain it to non-members in terms of military rank structure. These are loose definitions that don't fit exactly but I generally thought of the structure as something like this:

Mission President (MP) - Colonel
Assistant to the President (AP) - Captain (Senior AP I guess would be like a Major)
Zone Leader (ZL) - Leutenant (Senior ZL - 1st LT, junior ZL - 2nd LT)
District Leader (DL) - Seargent
Senior Companion in non-leadership role - Corporal
Junior Companion - Private First Class

Again, I know it doesn't fit exactly but it's how I would explain it to my non-member Air Force/military freinds.

So the Sisters didn't hold leadership roles other than as senior companions. They didn't serve as District or Zone Leaders nor as Assistants to the President. However a few of them served as something called a "Sister Viajante" in Portuguese which I guess would translate to "Traveling Sister". This role was similar in some ways to the APs but their main tasks were focused on training and assisting Sister missionary pairs specifically, and not really on leadership like the roles of AP, ZL/DL for Elders. Many of you know this already especially if you served a mission.

Anyway I'll get to the point. These titles had a way of going to people's heads, both Elders and Sisters, more so for Elders for obvious reasons. However there was one occasion in a Zone Leader confrence I attended towards the end of my mission where a particularly prideful sister made some comment to one of the newer Zone leaders saying she was a "a Sister Viajante" and "knew the proper ways to teach doctrine and relate to investigators". Or something to that effect. I honestly can't remember what triggered the outburst since I missed the first part of the conversation. Right after that the Mission President called her out in front of everyone and said "Do not ever tell a Melchezidek Preisthood holder you're a Sister Viajate. A 12 year old Deacon has more authority than you." That part I remeber and will never forget. He didn't yell at her but his tone was firm. She was silet and I expected her to start crying any minute and I'm fairly certain she did because later she got up and went to the bathroom for like 10 minites.

Sorry about the wall of text but I wanted to give some context to the comment. It was a harsh comment for sure, and it maybe even wasn't appropriate for the mission president to call her out in front of everyone like that. But his statement was true, I didn't doubt it then and I don't doubt it now. This truth seems to be falling out of favor with our Church today unfortunately and giving way to a new "woke gospel" as I and others have taken to calling it.

God bless that Mission president for telling her the truth. I agree, maybe he should not have said it in public like that, but it remains true.

And no, endowments do not equal priesthood. So please do not make silly claims like that. Priesthood comes by ordination only.

[Lizzy60]

Any grown man who would publicly humiliate a young woman he has stewardship over is a complete and total scumbag.

It doesn't matter if he was correct, or if he just believed he was correct, public humiliation, NO MATTER WHAT, is a shameful act. He is no better than a tyrant.

[Lizzy60]

I generally try to avoid the feminst threads lately because I don't think they're very constructive anymore. But they've got me thinking more about just how drastically the Church has changed in the 15 years since I completed my mission.

As most of you know there is a structured leadership hierarchy with in the mission and I used to try to explain it to non-members in terms of military rank structure. These are loose definitions that don't fit exactly but I generally thought of the structure as something like this:

Mission President (MP) - Colonel
Assistant to the President (AP) - Captain (Senior AP I guess would be like a Major)
Zone Leader (ZL) - Leutenant (Senior ZL - 1st LT, junior ZL - 2nd LT)
District Leader (DL) - Seargent
Senior Companion in non-leadership role - Corporal
Junior Companion - Private First Class

Again, I know it doesn't fit exactly but it's how I would explain it to my non-member Air Force/military freinds.

So the Sisters didn't hold leadership roles other than as senior companions. They didn't serve as District or Zone Leaders nor as Assistants to the President. However a few of them served as something called a "Sister Viajante" in Portuguese which I guess would translate to "Traveling Sister". This role was similar in some ways to the APs but their main tasks were focused on training and assisting Sister missionary pairs specifically, and not really on leadership like the roles of AP, ZL/DL for Elders. Many of you know this already especially if you served a mission.

Anyway I'll get to the point. These titles had a way of going to people's heads, both Elders and Sisters, more so for Elders for obvious reasons. However there was one occasion in a Zone Leader confrence I attended towards the end of my mission where a particularly prideful sister made some comment to one of the newer Zone leaders saying she was a "a Sister Viajante" and "knew the proper ways to teach doctrine and relate to investigators". Or something to that effect. I honestly can't remember what triggered the outburst since I missed the first part of the conversation. Right after that the Mission President called her out in front of everyone and said "Do not ever tell a Melchezidek Preisthood holder you're a Sister Viajate. A 12 year old Deacon has more authority than you." That part I remeber and will never forget. He didn't yell at her but his tone was firm. She was silet and I expected her to start crying any minute and I'm fairly certain she did because later she got up and went to the bathroom for like 10 minites.

Sorry about the wall of text but I wanted to give some context to the comment. It was a harsh comment for sure, and it maybe even wasn't appropriate for the mission president to call her out in front of everyone like that. But his statement was true, I didn't doubt it then and I don't doubt it now. This truth seems to be falling out of favor with our Church today unfortunately and giving way to a new "woke gospel" as I and others have taken to calling it.

God bless that Mission president for telling her the truth. I agree, maybe he should not have said it in public like that, but it remains true.

And no, endowments do not equal priesthood. So please do not make silly claims like that. Priesthood comes by ordination only.

Women receive priesthood in the temple endowment. Priesthood OFFICES come by ordination, but priesthood POWER comes from God alone. Priesthood power is the power to know what God wants you to do, and then to do it. Ordination to a priesthood office is not the same.

President Nelson recently tried to teach this to the women of the church.

[Rick Grimes]

Any grown man who would publicly humiliate a young woman he has stewardship over is a complete and total scumbag.

It doesn't matter if he was correct, or if he just believed he was correct, public humiliation, NO MATTER WHAT, is a shameful act. He is no better than a tyrant.

Hold on, I agree it shouldnt have been public, but you certainly are quick to judge somebody who made a decision in his stewardship. We do not know the circumstances behind this. Maybe this sister was overzealous throwing this title out there and was generating complaints from Elders and members alike. We dont know what else was involved in this, and like was stated, he didnt yell at her. He probably had a follow up conversation with her to show her an increase in love, lest she esteem him as her enemy. Please dont be so hasty as to calling this brother a "scumbag" when you never met him or what he was trying to do in this situation.

[nightlight]

Sounds like the mission president was a clown.

Perfect example of unrighteous dominion.
A 12 year old boy? He sure showed her!!!! lol
I hope she learned how to laugh his clownish ways off.

Mormons love to compel by virtue of their "authority" . lol the irony is......once this thought enters your head............you lose what you hold

We are to lead by our example. Instead of reminding people about your "authority"....show them the changing power that should go hand in hand with your authority.

Lol I hear the word "priesthood authority" soooooooo much in our culture. The men talk about this to compensate for their lack of priesthood power & to keep the subject...subjected

[mahalanobis]

By this theory, a 12 year old boy has more authority than heavenly mother.

A 12 year old has not received his endowment thus has less authority than a woman who has. She has a greater priesthood.

I get so confused with all the word padding we've added over the decades.

So a woman can "have" a priesthood, but doesn't "hold" the priesthood. Or maybe it's that she can "hold" it, but she's not "ordained" to an office. Or she has priesthood "power" by virtue of being called and set apart. Then there's "priesthood power" vs. "priesthood authority" vs "priesthood office". Then there's the conference talks that say "Mark my words: the men themselves aren't the priesthood". I don't even disagree per se with these statements. I just can't keep track of them all.

I'm not trying to challenge you. I'm just airing my frustration at the word salad we've created. I'm not even defensive per se. I'm 100% okay with there being "mysteries of God" that I don't understand. However I get rather annoyed when we add to the mysteries by adding 100 definitions and dogmas such that it turns into "mysteries of man".

I'm very open minded to being set straight on this matter btw. I don't care who has more authority than someone else. I simply seek understanding. I'm sure Christ would say (as he did to Nicodemus) "art thou an [Elder] in Israel and knowest not these things?". And I have no answer but to humbly admit that I do not understand.

EDIT: typos

[Rick Grimes]

I generally try to avoid the feminst threads lately because I don't think they're very constructive anymore. But they've got me thinking more about just how drastically the Church has changed in the 15 years since I completed my mission.

As most of you know there is a structured leadership hierarchy with in the mission and I used to try to explain it to non-members in terms of military rank structure. These are loose definitions that don't fit exactly but I generally thought of the structure as something like this:

Mission President (MP) - Colonel
Assistant to the President (AP) - Captain (Senior AP I guess would be like a Major)
Zone Leader (ZL) - Leutenant (Senior ZL - 1st LT, junior ZL - 2nd LT)
District Leader (DL) - Seargent
Senior Companion in non-leadership role - Corporal
Junior Companion - Private First Class

Again, I know it doesn't fit exactly but it's how I would explain it to my non-member Air Force/military freinds.

So the Sisters didn't hold leadership roles other than as senior companions. They didn't serve as District or Zone Leaders nor as Assistants to the President. However a few of them served as something called a "Sister Viajante" in Portuguese which I guess would translate to "Traveling Sister". This role was similar in some ways to the APs but their main tasks were focused on training and assisting Sister missionary pairs specifically, and not really on leadership like the roles of AP, ZL/DL for Elders. Many of you know this already especially if you served a mission.

Anyway I'll get to the point. These titles had a way of going to people's heads, both Elders and Sisters, more so for Elders for obvious reasons. However there was one occasion in a Zone Leader confrence I attended towards the end of my mission where a particularly prideful sister made some comment to one of the newer Zone leaders saying she was a "a Sister Viajante" and "knew the proper ways to teach doctrine and relate to investigators". Or something to that effect. I honestly can't remember what triggered the outburst since I missed the first part of the conversation. Right after that the Mission President called her out in front of everyone and said "Do not ever tell a Melchezidek Preisthood holder you're a Sister Viajate. A 12 year old Deacon has more authority than you." That part I remeber and will never forget. He didn't yell at her but his tone was firm. She was silet and I expected her to start crying any minute and I'm fairly certain she did because later she got up and went to the bathroom for like 10 minites.

Sorry about the wall of text but I wanted to give some context to the comment. It was a harsh comment for sure, and it maybe even wasn't appropriate for the mission president to call her out in front of everyone like that. But his statement was true, I didn't doubt it then and I don't doubt it now. This truth seems to be falling out of favor with our Church today unfortunately and giving way to a new "woke gospel" as I and others have taken to calling it.

God bless that Mission president for telling her the truth. I agree, maybe he should not have said it in public like that, but it remains true.

And no, endowments do not equal priesthood. So please do not make silly claims like that. Priesthood comes by ordination only.

Women receive priesthood in the temple endowment. Priesthood OFFICES come by ordination, but priesthood POWER comes from God alone. Priesthood power is the power to know what God wants you to do, and then to do it. Ordination to a priesthood office is not the same.

President Nelson recently tried to teach this to the women of the church.

No, they dont. They recieve access to priesthood blessings by going through the temple, but they dont recieve any priesthood or power other than the blessings (which are indeed numerous) for temple attendance. President Nelson is in full "appease rabid feminist" mode. You can see the changes made to the endowment were 100.percent for these angry women who dont like to even "hearken to the council of their husbands" mentioned to them. You can spin it all you want, women do not hold priesthood. While it is true that ultimate power comes from God, and many priesthood holders for unworthy reasons will not have it when they want it, it is still impossible for an unordained person, Male or female, to wield priesthood power without having been properly ordained. As the scripture state, "no man taketh this honor upon himself". (That includes sisters)

Again, I am not advocating public shaming, but his statement remains true. A 12 year old deacon holds more authority than the Pope of Rome, a Baptist minister, Jimmy Swaggart or any other tele-evangelist out there. The truth is, they have more authority than any sister in the church as well. You may nor like it, but there you have it. It is an unfortunate truth of how Lord establishes His Kingdom.

[[email protected]]

Any grown man who would publicly humiliate a young woman he has stewardship over is a complete and total scumbag.

It doesn't matter if he was correct, or if he just believed he was correct, public humiliation, NO MATTER WHAT, is a shameful act. He is no better than a tyrant.

Oh I didn't agree with many of his methods or his attitude at times. The man was a lot of things. But a scumbag was not one of them. I found out several years later from one of my freinds who was his AP why the President was the way he was. If it makes you feel better I had a missionary that was transferred to my zone that had been demoted to junior companion for telling this mission president to shut up over the phone.

[Sarah]

I generally try to avoid the feminst threads lately because I don't think they're very constructive anymore. But they've got me thinking more about just how drastically the Church has changed in the 15 years since I completed my mission.

As most of you know there is a structured leadership hierarchy with in the mission and I used to try to explain it to non-members in terms of military rank structure. These are loose definitions that don't fit exactly but I generally thought of the structure as something like this:

Mission President (MP) - Colonel
Assistant to the President (AP) - Captain (Senior AP I guess would be like a Major)
Zone Leader (ZL) - Leutenant (Senior ZL - 1st LT, junior ZL - 2nd LT)
District Leader (DL) - Seargent
Senior Companion in non-leadership role - Corporal
Junior Companion - Private First Class

Again, I know it doesn't fit exactly but it's how I would explain it to my non-member Air Force/military freinds.

So the Sisters didn't hold leadership roles other than as senior companions. They didn't serve as District or Zone Leaders nor as Assistants to the President. However a few of them served as something called a "Sister Viajante" in Portuguese which I guess would translate to "Traveling Sister". This role was similar in some ways to the APs but their main tasks were focused on training and assisting Sister missionary pairs specifically, and not really on leadership like the roles of AP, ZL/DL for Elders. Many of you know this already especially if you served a mission.

Anyway I'll get to the point. These titles had a way of going to people's heads, both Elders and Sisters, more so for Elders for obvious reasons. However there was one occasion in a Zone Leader confrence I attended towards the end of my mission where a particularly prideful sister made some comment to one of the newer Zone leaders saying she was a "a Sister Viajante" and "knew the proper ways to teach doctrine and relate to investigators". Or something to that effect. I honestly can't remember what triggered the outburst since I missed the first part of the conversation. Right after that the Mission President called her out in front of everyone and said "Do not ever tell a Melchezidek Preisthood holder you're a Sister Viajate. A 12 year old Deacon has more authority than you." That part I remeber and will never forget. He didn't yell at her but his tone was firm. She was silet and I expected her to start crying any minute and I'm fairly certain she did because later she got up and went to the bathroom for like 10 minites.

Sorry about the wall of text but I wanted to give some context to the comment. It was a harsh comment for sure, and it maybe even wasn't appropriate for the mission president to call her out in front of everyone like that. But his statement was true, I didn't doubt it then and I don't doubt it now. This truth seems to be falling out of favor with our Church today unfortunately and giving way to a new "woke gospel" as I and others have taken to calling it.

God bless that Mission president for telling her the truth. I agree, maybe he should not have said it in public like that, but it remains true.

And no, endowments do not equal priesthood. So please do not make silly claims like that. Priesthood comes by ordination only.

Women receive priesthood in the temple endowment. Priesthood OFFICES come by ordination, but priesthood POWER comes from God alone. Priesthood power is the power to know what God wants you to do, and then to do it. Ordination to a priesthood office is not the same.

President Nelson recently tried to teach this to the women of the church.

No, they dont. They recieve access to priesthood blessings by going through the temple, but they dont recieve any priesthood or power other than the blessings (which are indeed numerous) for temple attendance. President Nelson is in full "appease rabid feminist" mode. You can see the changes made to the endowment were 100.percent for these angry women who dont like to even "hearken to the council of their husbands" mentioned to them. You can spin it all you want, women do not hold priesthood. While it is true that ultimate power comes from God, and many priesthood holders for unworthy reasons will not have it when they want it, it is still impossible for an unordained person, Male or female, to wield priesthood power without having been properly ordained. As the scripture state, "no man taketh this honor upon himself". (That includes sisters)

Again, I am not advocating public shaming, but his statement remains true. A 12 year old deacon holds more authority than the Pope of Rome, a Baptist minister, Jimmy Swaggart or any other tele-evangelist out there. The truth is, they have more authority than any sister in the church as well. You may nor like it, but there you have it. It is an unfortunate truth of how Lord establishes His Kingdom.

We are wearing robes of the priesthood that allow us to officiate in the ordinances of certain orders of the priesthood, so we are given authority to do that.

[Rick Grimes]

[/quote]

Women receive priesthood in the temple endowment. Priesthood OFFICES come by ordination, but priesthood POWER comes from God alone. Priesthood power is the power to know what God wants you to do, and then to do it. Ordination to a priesthood office is not the same.

President Nelson recently tried to teach this to the women of the church.
[/quote]

No, they dont. They recieve access to priesthood blessings by going through the temple, but they dont recieve any priesthood or power other than the blessings (which are indeed numerous) for temple attendance. President Nelson is in full "appease rabid feminist" mode. You can see the changes made to the endowment were 100.percent for these angry women who dont like to even "hearken to the council of their husbands" mentioned to them. You can spin it all you want, women do not hold priesthood. While it is true that ultimate power comes from God, and many priesthood holders for unworthy reasons will not have it when they want it, it is still impossible for an unordained person, Male or female, to wield priesthood power without having been properly ordained. As the scripture state, "no man taketh this honor upon himself". (That includes sisters)

Again, I am not advocating public shaming, but his statement remains true. A 12 year old deacon holds more authority than the Pope of Rome, a Baptist minister, Jimmy Swaggart or any other tele-evangelist out there. The truth is, they have more authority than any sister in the church as well. You may nor like it, but there you have it. It is an "unfortunate" truth of how Lord establishes His Kingdom.
[/quote]

[Rick Grimes]

By this theory, a 12 year old boy has more authority than heavenly mother.

A 12 year old has not received his endowment thus has less authority than a woman who has. She has a greater priesthood.

I get so confused with all the word padding we've added over the decades.

So a woman can "have" a priesthood, but doesn't "hold" the priesthood. Or maybe it's that she can "hold" it, but she's not "ordained" to an office. Or she has priesthood "power" by virtue of being called and set apart. Then there's "priesthood power" vs. "priesthood authority" vs "priesthood office". Then there's the conference talks that say "Mark my words: the men themselves aren't the priesthood". I don't even disagree per se with these statements. I just can't keep track of them all.

I'm not trying to challenge you. I'm just airing my frustration at the word salad we've created. I'm not even defensive per se. I'm 100% okay with there being "mysteries of God" that I don't understand. However I get rather annoyed when we add to the mysteries by adding 100 definitions and dogmas such that it turns into "mysteries of man".

I'm very open minded to being set straight on this matter btw. I don't care who has more authority than someone else. I simply seek understanding. I'm sure Christ would say (as he did to Nicodemus) "art thou an [Elder] in Israel and knowest not these things?". And I have no answer but to humbly admit that I do not understand.

EDIT: typos

We are twisting ourselves sideways trying to appease the more radical elements out there. This is where this "word salad" is coming from. Leadership is using every colorful descriptor imaginable to assure women that they too "have priesthood" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), without actually giving in and having women ordained to the priesthood.

I'll admit, just because somebody is ordained does not make them into any expert or enlightened individual. I have an 11 year old son who is going to be ordained a deacon this year. Does he know more about the gospel, Christ, charity, etc... than my wife or his grandmothers? Absolutely not. He could and should learn from them, just as I do. The fact remains though, no matter how wise, how experienced, how learned anybody is, a true ordination of God's priesthood will still Trump that in authority, even at the deacon level. That is how great God's priesthood is. This is assuming the person in question is a good and honest person, trying to do right. (Before I get jumped on about men not being worthy and other such rot)

[mahalanobis]

By this theory, a 12 year old boy has more authority than heavenly mother.

A 12 year old has not received his endowment thus has less authority than a woman who has. She has a greater priesthood.

I get so confused with all the word padding we've added over the decades.

So a woman can "have" a priesthood, but doesn't "hold" the priesthood. Or maybe it's that she can "hold" it, but she's not "ordained" to an office. Or she has priesthood "power" by virtue of being called and set apart. Then there's "priesthood power" vs. "priesthood authority" vs "priesthood office". Then there's the conference talks that say "Mark my words: the men themselves aren't the priesthood". I don't even disagree per se with these statements. I just can't keep track of them all.

I'm not trying to challenge you. I'm just airing my frustration at the word salad we've created. I'm not even defensive per se. I'm 100% okay with there being "mysteries of God" that I don't understand. However I get rather annoyed when we add to the mysteries by adding 100 definitions and dogmas such that it turns into "mysteries of man".

I'm very open minded to being set straight on this matter btw. I don't care who has more authority than someone else. I simply seek understanding. I'm sure Christ would say (as he did to Nicodemus) "art thou an [Elder] in Israel and knowest not these things?". And I have no answer but to humbly admit that I do not understand.

EDIT: typos

We are twisting ourselves sideways trying to appease the more radical elements out there. This is where this "word salad" is coming from. Leadership is using every colorful descriptor imaginable to assure women that they too "have priesthood" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), without actually giving in and having women ordained to the priesthood.

I'll admit, just because somebody is ordained does not make them into any expert or enlightened individual. I have an 11 year old son who is going to be ordained a deacon this year. Does he know more about the gospel, Christ, charity, etc... than my wife or his grandmothers? Absolutely not. He could and should learn from them, just as I do. The fact remains though, no matter how wise, how experienced, how learned anybody is, a true ordination of God's priesthood will still Trump that in authority, even at the deacon level. That is how great God's priesthood is. This is assuming the person in question is a good and honest person, trying to do right. (Before I get jumped on about men not being worthy and other such rot)

I hope you are right because I feel way less stupid under this paradigm.

So can a woman have "priesthood power"? Maybe we need to define what that actually means.

[nightlight]

Any grown man who would publicly humiliate a young woman he has stewardship over is a complete and total scumbag.

It doesn't matter if he was correct, or if he just believed he was correct, public humiliation, NO MATTER WHAT, is a shameful act. He is no better than a tyrant.

Hold on, I agree it shouldnt have been public, but you certainly are quick to judge somebody who made a decision in his stewardship. We do not know the circumstances behind this. Maybe this sister was overzealous throwing this title out there and was generating complaints from Elders and members alike. We dont know what else was involved in this, and like was stated, he didnt yell at her. He probably had a follow up conversation with her to show her an increase in love, lest she esteem him as her enemy. Please dont be so hasty as to calling this brother a "scumbag" when you never met him or what he was trying to do in this situation.

Telling a young lady that a 12year old child has "more" than she does is not the way of God. I'm not talking about what she did wrong. I'm talking about what he said to her.

You need to understand women who are baptised with Water&Fire are Priestess of the Most High.
Comparing a priest with a woman of Christ is comparing apple's to oranges, it like comparing the quality of mothers to fathers.
We are the same coin.....BUT different sides

[MMbelieve]

By this theory, a 12 year old boy has more authority than heavenly mother.

A 12 year old has not received his endowment thus has less authority than a woman who has. She has a greater priesthood.

I get so confused with all the word padding we've added over the decades.

So a woman can "have" a priesthood, but doesn't "hold" the priesthood. Or maybe it's that she can "hold" it, but she's not "ordained" to an office. Or she has priesthood "power" by virtue of being called and set apart. Then there's "priesthood power" vs. "priesthood authority" vs "priesthood office". Then there's the conference talks that say "Mark my words: the men themselves aren't the priesthood". I don't even disagree per se with these statements. I just can't keep track of them all.

I'm not trying to challenge you. I'm just airing my frustration at the word salad we've created. I'm not even defensive per se. I'm 100% okay with there being "mysteries of God" that I don't understand. However I get rather annoyed when we add to the mysteries by adding 100 definitions and dogmas such that it turns into "mysteries of man".

I'm very open minded to being set straight on this matter btw. I don't care who has more authority than someone else. I simply seek understanding. I'm sure Christ would say (as he did to Nicodemus) "art thou an [Elder] in Israel and knowest not these things?". And I have no answer but to humbly admit that I do not understand.

EDIT: typos

The best thing to do is define authority. Authority in what? Authority to act in the realm you have been designated. A 12 year old operates in his minor role, his role does not extend very far nor is it over anybody but other 12 year olds. He is given duties and assignments of passing sacrament and collecting tithing (still done is some places).

The sister missionary in the example was the unfortunate casualty of male pecking order. This is why I don’t care for women entering the mission field or the military or a number of other things. A woman needs a place in what she is doing outside of the pecking order of men and how they operate. The rules of men together do not carry over to apply to women. The mission President was wrong 100% in what he did. If she was out of line then he had the duty of confronting her privately, not publicly shaming or humiliating her in front of other young men. It was poor form and a very bad example to the most disrespectful lows.

Regarding the priesthood, women wear and are given robes of the priesthood in the temple and wear the sacred clothing forever afterwards. Anciently with Solomons temple and even Moses tent temple, the priests had to go through a washing, clothing and anointing once. So women going through this exact same ritual are set apart as a priestess.
Nelson’s words are still being digested and understood by me and everyone else it seems so there is much to learn still. He did state that women have every ability, right and blessing of the priesthood that men have if they are endowed. They are not ordained to an office of the priesthood because that is for men. It’s likely causing confusion to try to interject women into the male order because it’s not correct to do so. We need to think of men and women as 2 equal forces one being, for example, the left and the other being the right. The left operates on the left side and the right on the right side, they cannot ever operate on the opposite side because they do not have the ability or privilege of doing so. I hope I’m making sense.

Women have the priestess right to the power and blessings of God which comes with its set of expectations. Men have the same thing but also within the rank and file of priesthood offices. Women and men really need to view the genders as rightful heirs to their side of things all under the authority of God who gave it to them. Then we need to learn to become one once we are paired off while still remaining in our designated roles.

[MMbelieve]

Any grown man who would publicly humiliate a young woman he has stewardship over is a complete and total scumbag.

It doesn't matter if he was correct, or if he just believed he was correct, public humiliation, NO MATTER WHAT, is a shameful act. He is no better than a tyrant.

Hold on, I agree it shouldnt have been public, but you certainly are quick to judge somebody who made a decision in his stewardship. We do not know the circumstances behind this. Maybe this sister was overzealous throwing this title out there and was generating complaints from Elders and members alike. We dont know what else was involved in this, and like was stated, he didnt yell at her. He probably had a follow up conversation with her to show her an increase in love, lest she esteem him as her enemy. Please dont be so hasty as to calling this brother a "scumbag" when you never met him or what he was trying to do in this situation.

Telling a young lady that a 12year old child has "more" than she does is not the way of God. I'm not talking about what she did wrong. I'm talking about what he said to her.

You need to understand women who are baptised with Water&Fire are Priestess of the Most High.
Comparing a priest with a woman of Christ is comparing apple's to oranges, it like comparing the quality of mothers to fathers.
We are the same coin.....BUT different sides

Exactly what I was just posting. We’re not comparable...ever! And there is zero ever need to compete.

[MMbelieve]

By this theory, a 12 year old boy has more authority than heavenly mother.

A 12 year old has not received his endowment thus has less authority than a woman who has. She has a greater priesthood.

I get so confused with all the word padding we've added over the decades.

So a woman can "have" a priesthood, but doesn't "hold" the priesthood. Or maybe it's that she can "hold" it, but she's not "ordained" to an office. Or she has priesthood "power" by virtue of being called and set apart. Then there's "priesthood power" vs. "priesthood authority" vs "priesthood office". Then there's the conference talks that say "Mark my words: the men themselves aren't the priesthood". I don't even disagree per se with these statements. I just can't keep track of them all.

I'm not trying to challenge you. I'm just airing my frustration at the word salad we've created. I'm not even defensive per se. I'm 100% okay with there being "mysteries of God" that I don't understand. However I get rather annoyed when we add to the mysteries by adding 100 definitions and dogmas such that it turns into "mysteries of man".

I'm very open minded to being set straight on this matter btw. I don't care who has more authority than someone else. I simply seek understanding. I'm sure Christ would say (as he did to Nicodemus) "art thou an [Elder] in Israel and knowest not these things?". And I have no answer but to humbly admit that I do not understand.

EDIT: typos

We are twisting ourselves sideways trying to appease the more radical elements out there. This is where this "word salad" is coming from. Leadership is using every colorful descriptor imaginable to assure women that they too "have priesthood" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), without actually giving in and having women ordained to the priesthood.

I'll admit, just because somebody is ordained does not make them into any expert or enlightened individual. I have an 11 year old son who is going to be ordained a deacon this year. Does he know more about the gospel, Christ, charity, etc... than my wife or his grandmothers? Absolutely not. He could and should learn from them, just as I do. The fact remains though, no matter how wise, how experienced, how learned anybody is, a true ordination of God's priesthood will still Trump that in authority, even at the deacon level. That is how great God's priesthood is. This is assuming the person in question is a good and honest person, trying to do right. (Before I get jumped on about men not being worthy and other such rot)

I hope you are right because I feel way less stupid under this paradigm.

So can a woman have "priesthood power"? Maybe we need to define what that actually means.

I don’t doubt I could tell a mountain to move some day and it would move. Priesthood power is acting in the name of God. Heavenly mother does whatever it is she does regarding spirit children with priesthood.

[Rick Grimes]

Any grown man who would publicly humiliate a young woman he has stewardship over is a complete and total scumbag.

It doesn't matter if he was correct, or if he just believed he was correct, public humiliation, NO MATTER WHAT, is a shameful act. He is no better than a tyrant.

Hold on, I agree it shouldnt have been public, but you certainly are quick to judge somebody who made a decision in his stewardship. We do not know the circumstances behind this. Maybe this sister was overzealous throwing this title out there and was generating complaints from Elders and members alike. We dont know what else was involved in this, and like was stated, he didnt yell at her. He probably had a follow up conversation with her to show her an increase in love, lest she esteem him as her enemy. Please dont be so hasty as to calling this brother a "scumbag" when you never met him or what he was trying to do in this situation.

Telling a young lady that a 12year old child has "more" than she does is not the way of God. I'm not talking about what she did wrong. I'm talking about what he said to her.

You need to understand women who are baptised with Water&Fire are Priestess of the Most High.
Comparing a priest with a woman of Christ is comparing apple's to oranges, it like comparing the quality of mothers to fathers.
We are the same coin.....BUT different sides

Christ compared the Caananite woman to a dog. Was he also not following the "way of God". Joseph Smith laughed at a man who claimed he could call fire down from Heaven to consume him. He later taunted him with encouragement to "cut himself". Was he also out of line and not following the way of "God". Elijah made fun of the priests and told them to yell louder for Baal, when he wasnt answering their prayers. I could go on. Just because somebody says something kinda mean, doesnt mean it was factually wrong. Again, we dont know the circumstances with this situation, but there are some people here that are quick to Monday morning quarter back this Mission Pres. Maybe the spirit told him to reprove her with sharpness, as the doctrine and covenants state?

[Sarah]

This is a little off topic, but I think this story demonstrates the respect men in heaven have for women.
Joseph, Hyrum, and Heber C. bow to Mary Elizabeth a dozen times.

Mary Elizabeth Rollins - 1905
I want to say to you as I said before that Joseph said if I was faithful, I should see greater things than the angel. Since then I have seen other persons, three came together and stood before me just as the sun went down — Joseph, Hyrum and Heber C. Kimball. It was prophesied that I should see Joseph before I died. Still, I was not thinking about that. I was thinking about a sermon I had heard. All at once I looked up and they stood before me. Joseph stood in the middle in a circle like the new moon and he stood with his arms over their shoulders. They bowed to me about a dozen times or more. I pinched myself to be sure I was awake, and I looked around the room to see where I had placed things. I thought I would shake hands with them. They saw my confusion and understood it and they laughed, and I thought Brother Kimball would almost kill himself laughing. I had no fear. As I went to shake hands with them, they bowed, smiled and began to fade. They went like the sun sinks behind a mountain or a cloud. It gave me more courage and hope than I ever had before.

[John Tavner]

Any grown man who would publicly humiliate a young woman he has stewardship over is a complete and total scumbag.

It doesn't matter if he was correct, or if he just believed he was correct, public humiliation, NO MATTER WHAT, is a shameful act. He is no better than a tyrant.

Hold on, I agree it shouldnt have been public, but you certainly are quick to judge somebody who made a decision in his stewardship. We do not know the circumstances behind this. Maybe this sister was overzealous throwing this title out there and was generating complaints from Elders and members alike. We dont know what else was involved in this, and like was stated, he didnt yell at her. He probably had a follow up conversation with her to show her an increase in love, lest she esteem him as her enemy. Please dont be so hasty as to calling this brother a "scumbag" when you never met him or what he was trying to do in this situation.

Telling a young lady that a 12year old child has "more" than she does is not the way of God. I'm not talking about what she did wrong. I'm talking about what he said to her.

You need to understand women who are baptised with Water&Fire are Priestess of the Most High.
Comparing a priest with a woman of Christ is comparing apple's to oranges, it like comparing the quality of mothers to fathers.
We are the same coin.....BUT different sides

Christ compared the Caananite woman to a dog. Was he also not following the "way of God". Joseph Smith laughed at a man who claimed he could call fire down from Heaven to consume him. He later taunted him with encouragement to "cut himself". Was he also out of line and not following the way of "God". Elijah made fun of the priests and told them to yell louder for Baal, when he wasnt answering their prayers. I could go on. Just because somebody says something kinda mean, doesnt mean it was factually wrong. Again, we dont know the circumstances with this situation, but there are some people here that are quick to Monday morning quarter back this Mission Pres. Maybe the spirit told him to reprove her with sharpness, as the doctrine and covenants state?

As a little clarification Jesus called the woman a small dog or pet dog (the literal translation) It was a play on words because jews called gentiles "wild dogs" or "cur" with unclean being hte meaning. He was saying his duty at the time was to the Jews, not the gentiles.

[mahalanobis]

I get so confused with all the word padding we've added over the decades.

So a woman can "have" a priesthood, but doesn't "hold" the priesthood. Or maybe it's that she can "hold" it, but she's not "ordained" to an office. Or she has priesthood "power" by virtue of being called and set apart. Then there's "priesthood power" vs. "priesthood authority" vs "priesthood office". Then there's the conference talks that say "Mark my words: the men themselves aren't the priesthood". I don't even disagree per se with these statements. I just can't keep track of them all.

I'm not trying to challenge you. I'm just airing my frustration at the word salad we've created. I'm not even defensive per se. I'm 100% okay with there being "mysteries of God" that I don't understand. However I get rather annoyed when we add to the mysteries by adding 100 definitions and dogmas such that it turns into "mysteries of man".

I'm very open minded to being set straight on this matter btw. I don't care who has more authority than someone else. I simply seek understanding. I'm sure Christ would say (as he did to Nicodemus) "art thou an [Elder] in Israel and knowest not these things?". And I have no answer but to humbly admit that I do not understand.

EDIT: typos

We are twisting ourselves sideways trying to appease the more radical elements out there. This is where this "word salad" is coming from. Leadership is using every colorful descriptor imaginable to assure women that they too "have priesthood" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), without actually giving in and having women ordained to the priesthood.

I'll admit, just because somebody is ordained does not make them into any expert or enlightened individual. I have an 11 year old son who is going to be ordained a deacon this year. Does he know more about the gospel, Christ, charity, etc... than my wife or his grandmothers? Absolutely not. He could and should learn from them, just as I do. The fact remains though, no matter how wise, how experienced, how learned anybody is, a true ordination of God's priesthood will still Trump that in authority, even at the deacon level. That is how great God's priesthood is. This is assuming the person in question is a good and honest person, trying to do right. (Before I get jumped on about men not being worthy and other such rot)

I hope you are right because I feel way less stupid under this paradigm.

So can a woman have "priesthood power"? Maybe we need to define what that actually means.

I don’t doubt I could tell a mountain to move some day and it would move. Priesthood power is acting in the name of God. Heavenly mother does whatever it is she does regarding spirit children with priesthood.

But now we're getting into the realm of "The Force" where all things that happen are done by this power. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together. An energy field created by all living things. ...

Okay I took that too far, but the point I'm trying to make is that if all God's actions are done by this power, I'd think that we'd just call it "the power of God" and be done with it. Where "the priesthood" is "an order" or a group of priests and we claim to be there true order that was instantiated by Christ Himself. under this paradigm, all His children have access to His power through faith. Moving mountains, etc. No need to assign priestly labels to it.

Maybe I'm just simple minded.