Experiences with Christ and salvation of people outside of the LDS faith

[Durzan]

I have said it once, and I will say it again: Zion will not be established until the day that the members of all the LDS sects are united in power and authority under one banner of their own free will. Only together can we stand against the darkness that is consuming humanity in the lead up to the second coming.

[jmack]

Here are some amazing videos of people becoming witnesses of Jesus Christ, having visions, comin into His presence, or receiving their baptism of fire. All of these people are not LDS yet found God. Truly the lord manifests himself unto all nations and all people who have a broken heart. God is no respecter of persons. Anyone from any faith or denomination can come unto Christ (literally). Anyone can be baptized of fire and the Holy Spirit by the Lord if they repent.

https://youtu.be/uTDM6Ji-fD0

https://youtu.be/-FylmW4TzP4

https://youtu.be/1vd583t4R60

https://youtu.be/tHk2rjL3p94

Isn't this what Denver Snuffer tells people?

[Alexander]

Here are some amazing videos of people becoming witnesses of Jesus Christ, having visions, comin into His presence, or receiving their baptism of fire. All of these people are not LDS yet found God. Truly the lord manifests himself unto all nations and all people who have a broken heart. God is no respecter of persons. Anyone from any faith or denomination can come unto Christ (literally). Anyone can be baptized of fire and the Holy Spirit by the Lord if they repent.

https://youtu.be/uTDM6Ji-fD0

https://youtu.be/-FylmW4TzP4

https://youtu.be/1vd583t4R60

https://youtu.be/tHk2rjL3p94

Isn't this what Denver Snuffer tells people?

Don’t know. I’ve never studied anything he’s taught.

[jmack]

I'm pretty sure a lot on this forum believe you don't need the true gospel or true church or ordinances, that none of that is important. Denver Snuffer used to think it was important, but not anymore. If you believe joseph smith, then being a member of God's true church and receiving ordinances was so important god and jesus christ actually appeared to him. But if you don't believe the church’s claims, then sure, it does not matter.

[jmack]

I have said it once, and I will say it again: Zion will not be established until the day that the members of all the LDS sects are united in power and authority under one banner of their own free will. Only together can we stand against the darkness that is consuming humanity in the lead up to the second coming.

My opinion, that's never going to happen. But the righteous need to stand together.

[Alexander]

I'm pretty sure a lot on this forum believe you don't need the true gospel or true church or ordinances, that none of that is important. Denver Snuffer used to think it was important, but not anymore. If you believe joseph smith, then being a member of God's true church and receiving ordinances was so important god and jesus christ actually appeared to him. But if you don't believe the church’s claims, then sure, it does not matter.

I believe the Gospel (good news) that Christ lives and that he suffered and died for our sins so we can be saved. I believe in the true Doctrine of Christ as taught in the Book of Mormon. The baptism of water and the baptism of fire are essential in becoming saved. I believe to receive eternal life, we must know God in a pure relationship, even to the point where we commune with Christ face to face.

Through my thorough study of ALL of Joseph’s “first vision” accounts, I have learned that Joseph was seeking remission of sins and the path to salvation, not necessarily which church was true. He wanted to know which church was teaching the correct principles of salvation. The Lord appeared and he was forgiven, and Joseph was given intruction.

I hope people here in this forum believe in salvation in Christ, and believe the gospel. This was the intent of my post. I thought these peoples’ experiences and witnesses of Christ would inspire others as it has inspired me.

[Rick Grimes]

Here are some amazing videos of people becoming witnesses of Jesus Christ, having visions, comin into His presence, or receiving their baptism of fire. All of these people are not LDS yet found God. Truly the lord manifests himself unto all nations and all people who have a broken heart. God is no respecter of persons. Anyone from any faith or denomination can come unto Christ (literally). Anyone can be baptized of fire and the Holy Spirit by the Lord if they repent.

https://youtu.be/uTDM6Ji-fD0

https://youtu.be/-FylmW4TzP4

https://youtu.be/1vd583t4R60

https://youtu.be/tHk2rjL3p94

Isn't this what Denver Snuffer tells people?

Don’t know. I’ve never studied anything he’s taught.

It doesnt matter if you have. The author of yours and Denver's "truths" is the same person. Anything that teaches men to come away from the Lords true church is the Church of the Devil.

[SPIRIT]

Here are some amazing videos of people becoming witnesses of Jesus Christ, having visions, comin into His presence, or receiving their baptism of fire. All of these people are not LDS yet found God. Truly the lord manifests himself unto all nations and all people who have a broken heart. God is no respecter of persons. Anyone from any faith or denomination can come unto Christ (literally). Anyone can be baptized of fire and the Holy Spirit by the Lord if they repent.

https://youtu.be/uTDM6Ji-fD0

https://youtu.be/-FylmW4TzP4

https://youtu.be/1vd583t4R60

https://youtu.be/tHk2rjL3p94

Isn't this what Denver Snuffer tells people?

Don’t know. I’ve never studied anything he’s taught.

It doesnt matter if you have. The author of yours and Denver's "truths" is the same person. Anything that teaches men to come away from the Lords true church is the Church of the Devil.

is it STILL the Lord's true church ?
Have you ever even considered, that maybe the true gospel was restored,
but then we lost it , just like the people in the Book of Mormon did;
because, like them, we've done the same things that we were warned not to do ?
and WHY ? all the warnings to us in the Book of Mormon.
(probably not, because, (if you've even read the scriptures) you've probably always thought that the warnings and condemning things in the Book of Mormon didn't apply to you; (a member of the church)
they're just for the other guy.
And why so many scriptures warn us, about - if we do the things we have done,
(repeating their history, (the BoM peoples) then we will suffer the same consequences as they did
when they lost the gospel to us.
That is why the gospel is now going back to them. The House of Israel.
"the first will be last, and last first", and judgments are now coming on us
for going astray and failing to live up to the great responsibility of receiving the restored gospel.;
and on all the Gentiles who live in this "choice land", this land that no longer serves God.

D&C 112:24-26
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

Ether 2:11,12)
11 “And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God – that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.
12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.”

[PickleRick]

Here are some amazing videos of people becoming witnesses of Jesus Christ, having visions, comin into His presence, or receiving their baptism of fire. All of these people are not LDS yet found God. Truly the lord manifests himself unto all nations and all people who have a broken heart. God is no respecter of persons. Anyone from any faith or denomination can come unto Christ (literally). Anyone can be baptized of fire and the Holy Spirit by the Lord if they repent.

https://youtu.be/uTDM6Ji-fD0

https://youtu.be/-FylmW4TzP4

https://youtu.be/1vd583t4R60

https://youtu.be/tHk2rjL3p94

Isn't this what Denver Snuffer tells people?

Don’t know. I’ve never studied anything he’s taught.

It doesnt matter if you have. The author of yours and Denver's "truths" is the same person. Anything that teaches men to come away from the Lords true church is the Church of the Devil.

You are too focused on institutions. It's really much simpler than that - anything that teaches a person to worship anything other than God, is the Church of the Devil. Including if there is any aspect or person in the LDS church that teaches you to worship anything other than God, it is (in that instance) the church of the devil.

The way I read your comment (and I could be reading your intention wrong) is that salvation comes thru church membership. Yes and no. Ultimately the ordinances are necessary. But insufficient.

[Rick Grimes]

Isn't this what Denver Snuffer tells people?

Don’t know. I’ve never studied anything he’s taught.

It doesnt matter if you have. The author of yours and Denver's "truths" is the same person. Anything that teaches men to come away from the Lords true church is the Church of the Devil.

You are too focused on institutions. It's really much simpler than that - anything that teaches a person to worship anything other than God, is the Church of the Devil. Including if there is any aspect or person in the LDS church that teaches you to worship anything other than God, it is (in that instance) the church of the devil.

A distinction without a difference^

Notice how I wrote "anything" can be the church of the devil, and yes, that includes any false teachings even in the church that would take you away from God. Though, I havent seen any such teaching in our church. I have seen plenty of falsehoods taught, again, faults of men not of God, but never anything that could be construed as Church of the Devil.

The way I read your comment (and I could be reading your intention wrong) is that salvation comes thru church membership. Yes and no. Ultimately the ordinances are necessary. But insufficient.

No argument here^. The ordinances are dead if they are not coupled with a broken heart and contrite spirit as well as truly living the gospel in word and deed. However, the opposite is being argued by many here, that righteousness without the ordinances is sufficient for salvation, which is wrong.

[PickleRick]

Don’t know. I’ve never studied anything he’s taught.

It doesnt matter if you have. The author of yours and Denver's "truths" is the same person. Anything that teaches men to come away from the Lords true church is the Church of the Devil.

You are too focused on institutions. It's really much simpler than that - anything that teaches a person to worship anything other than God, is the Church of the Devil. Including if there is any aspect or person in the LDS church that teaches you to worship anything other than God, it is (in that instance) the church of the devil.

A distinction without a difference^

Notice how I wrote "anything" can be the church of the devil, and yes, that includes any false teachings even in the church that would take you away from God. Though, I havent seen any such teaching in our church. I have seen plenty of falsehoods taught, again, faults of men not of God, but never anything that could be construed as Church of the Devil.

The way I read your comment (and I could be reading your intention wrong) is that salvation comes thru church membership. Yes and no. Ultimately the ordinances are necessary. But insufficient.

No argument here^. The ordinances are dead if they are not coupled with a broken heart and contrite spirit as well as truly living the gospel in word and deed. However, the opposite is being argued by many here, that righteousness without the ordinances is sufficient for salvation, which is wrong.

I would say that righteousness will invariably lead to the ordinances. Every time.

[Thinker]

You are too focused on institutions. It's really much simpler than that - anything that teaches a person to worship anything other than God, is the Church of the Devil. Including if there is any aspect or person in the LDS church that teaches you to worship anything other than God, it is (in that instance) the church of the devil.

[Rick Grimes]

It doesnt matter if you have. The author of yours and Denver's "truths" is the same person. Anything that teaches men to come away from the Lords true church is the Church of the Devil.

You are too focused on institutions. It's really much simpler than that - anything that teaches a person to worship anything other than God, is the Church of the Devil. Including if there is any aspect or person in the LDS church that teaches you to worship anything other than God, it is (in that instance) the church of the devil.

A distinction without a difference^

Notice how I wrote "anything" can be the church of the devil, and yes, that includes any false teachings even in the church that would take you away from God. Though, I havent seen any such teaching in our church. I have seen plenty of falsehoods taught, again, faults of men not of God, but never anything that could be construed as Church of the Devil.

The way I read your comment (and I could be reading your intention wrong) is that salvation comes thru church membership. Yes and no. Ultimately the ordinances are necessary. But insufficient.

No argument here^. The ordinances are dead if they are not coupled with a broken heart and contrite spirit as well as truly living the gospel in word and deed. However, the opposite is being argued by many here, that righteousness without the ordinances is sufficient for salvation, which is wrong.

I would say that righteousness will invariably lead to the ordinances. Every time.

Tell that to the worthy millions who lived in the dark ages. They have been waiting, are still waiting for their ordinance to be done in our temples.

[kirtland r.m.]

The Holy Ghost was active upon the earth even during the great apostasy.viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5067 Yet it was not anywhere close to the fullness that the restoration brought. Having a witness that Jesus is the Christ is only a beginning. It is always brought about by beginning to hear at least a part of "the word" and beginning to exercise real faith in him including repentance.Then you must prepare to live in his and the Father's presence. This absolutely cannot be fully done without the saving ordinances and Priesthood of God on the earth, as well as a deep commitment including an understanding of the plan of salvation. Why is that?


Now I take a text. These words were written by Paul to certain ancient Saints. In principle they apply to us:

I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. [1 Corinthians 11:18–19]

Now let me list some axioms (I guess in academic circles we call these caveats):

—There is no salvation in believing a false doctrine.

—Truth, diamond truth, truth unmixed with error, truth alone leads to salvation.

—What we believe determines what we do.

—No man can be saved in ignorance of God and his laws.

—Man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the saving truths of his everlasting gospel.

—Gospel doctrines belong to the Lord, not to men. They are his. He ordained them, he reveals them, and he expects us to believe them.

—The doctrines of salvation are not discovered in a laboratory or on a geological field trip or by accompanying Darwin around the world. They come by revelation and in no other way.

—Our sole concern in seeking truth should be to learn and believe what the Lord knows and believes. Providentially he has set forth some of his views in the holy scriptures.

—Our goal as mortals is to gain the mind of Christ, to believe what he believes, to think what he thinks, to say what he says, to do what he does, and to be as he is.

—We are called upon to reject all heresies and cleave unto all truth. Only then can we progress according to the divine plan. As the Lord has said,

Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. [D&C 130:18–19]

Please note that knowledge is gained by obedience. It comes by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. In the ultimate and full sense it comes only by revelation from the Holy Ghost. There are some things a sinful man does not and cannot know. The Lord’s people are promised: “By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things” (Moroni 10:5). But if they do not seek the Spirit, if they do not accept the revelations God has given, if they cannot distinguish between the revealed word and the theories of men, they have no promise of gaining a fullness of truth by the power of the Holy Ghost.
The Seven Deadly Heresies
Bruce R. McConkie
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles June 1, 1980 • Devotional

[Hosh]

You are too focused on institutions. It's really much simpler than that - anything that teaches a person to worship anything other than God, is the Church of the Devil. Including if there is any aspect or person in the LDS church that teaches you to worship anything other than God, it is (in that instance) the church of the devil.

A distinction without a difference^

Notice how I wrote "anything" can be the church of the devil, and yes, that includes any false teachings even in the church that would take you away from God. Though, I havent seen any such teaching in our church. I have seen plenty of falsehoods taught, again, faults of men not of God, but never anything that could be construed as Church of the Devil.

The way I read your comment (and I could be reading your intention wrong) is that salvation comes thru church membership. Yes and no. Ultimately the ordinances are necessary. But insufficient.

No argument here^. The ordinances are dead if they are not coupled with a broken heart and contrite spirit as well as truly living the gospel in word and deed. However, the opposite is being argued by many here, that righteousness without the ordinances is sufficient for salvation, which is wrong.

I would say that righteousness will invariably lead to the ordinances. Every time.

Tell that to the worthy millions who lived in the dark ages. They have been waiting, are still waiting for their ordinance to be done in our temples.

We, just like ancient Israel, are way to focused on outward ordinances and the letter of the law. It is our great stumbling block that is keeping us from obtaining what we think we've already obtained. Most have not actually RECIEVED the gift of the Holy Ghost, the temporal ordinance was just an invitation. Most have not received the Melchizedek priesthood, the temporal ordinance was an invitation. Most have not been endowed with power from on high, the temple endowment is nothing more than a symbol, pointing towards the the actual spiritual event. The more we focus on these temporal symbols, thinking that they are the real deal, the more we become full of pride, thinking that we have something the rest of the world lacks. We are in the same state of blindness as ancient Israel, walking in darkness at noonday. Funny thing is about Israel, is they too had no idea just how lost and blind they were.

[Rick Grimes]

No argument here^. The ordinances are dead if they are not coupled with a broken heart and contrite spirit as well as truly living the gospel in word and deed. However, the opposite is being argued by many here, that righteousness without the ordinances is sufficient for salvation, which is wrong.

I would say that righteousness will invariably lead to the ordinances. Every time.

Tell that to the worthy millions who lived in the dark ages. They have been waiting, are still waiting for their ordinance to be done in our temples.

We, just like ancient Israel, are way to focused on outward ordinances and the letter of the law. It is our great stumbling block that is keeping us from obtaining what we think we've already obtained. Most have not actually RECIEVED the gift of the Holy Ghost, the temporal ordinance was just an invitation. Most have not received the Melchizedek priesthood, the temporal ordinance was an invitation. Most have not been endowed with power from on high, the temple endowment is nothing more than a symbol, pointing towards the the actual spiritual event. The more we focus on these temporal symbols, thinking that they are the real deal, the more we become full of pride, thinking that we have something the rest of the world lacks. We are in the same state of blindness as ancient Israel, walking in darkness at noonday. Funny thing is about Israel, is they too had no idea just how lost and blind they were.

As opposed to what? Rejecting the ordinances as they have been revealed all in the name of being "more pure"? Give me a break. None of us here is claiming any moral superiority. We cling to the commandment given by Christ and His prophets about the importance of living the gospel as well as receiving the ordinances by those who are in authority. You can claim that you see so much better than us, but you really are being nothing but another Denver Snuffer, or worse, an accuser of the brethren. You can compare us to the Jews, but your downward view point of us reminds me of the pharisees the way they looked down on Christ. Yeah, you know so much more than our leaders and prophets. Where are your fruits of divine leadership so we can pray to the Father if we should follow your lead, as a true messenger of our Heavenly Father?

[Hosh]

I would say that righteousness will invariably lead to the ordinances. Every time.

Tell that to the worthy millions who lived in the dark ages. They have been waiting, are still waiting for their ordinance to be done in our temples.

We, just like ancient Israel, are way to focused on outward ordinances and the letter of the law. It is our great stumbling block that is keeping us from obtaining what we think we've already obtained. Most have not actually RECIEVED the gift of the Holy Ghost, the temporal ordinance was just an invitation. Most have not received the Melchizedek priesthood, the temporal ordinance was an invitation. Most have not been endowed with power from on high, the temple endowment is nothing more than a symbol, pointing towards the the actual spiritual event. The more we focus on these temporal symbols, thinking that they are the real deal, the more we become full of pride, thinking that we have something the rest of the world lacks. We are in the same state of blindness as ancient Israel, walking in darkness at noonday. Funny thing is about Israel, is they too had no idea just how lost and blind they were.

As opposed to what? Rejecting the ordinances as they have been revealed all in the name of being "more pure"? Give me a break. None of us here is claiming any moral superiority. We cling to the commandment given by Christ and His prophets about the importance of living the gospel as well as receiving the ordinances by those who are in authority. You can claim that you see so much better than us, but you really are being nothing but another Denver Snuffer, or worse, an accuser of the brethren. You can compare us to the Jews, but your downward view point of us reminds me of the pharisees the way they looked down on Christ. Yeah, you know so much more than our leaders and prophets. Where are your fruits of divine leadership so we can pray to the Father if we should follow your lead, as a true messenger of our Heavenly Father?

Lol k. I didn't claim any of what you are attacking me for. I Didn't say I was giving up on ordinances in the name of being more pure, i just said we think they are the real deal. They aren't. That's it. And thinking they are has the potential to fill us with pride.

The Jews were also given commandments by God, they just didn't see the intent of why they were given. They looked beyond the mark. My opinion is we are in the same boat. I am in the same boat. I haven't claimed to have had any 2nd baptism or anything of that nature so why are you telling me I'm being pharasiacle. It's better to see our weakness than to think we are something we are not.

The amount of hostility I see in yours and Jonbobs posts surprises me honestly. Other paradigms exist outside your own. It's just a fact of life. Why get so defensive because someone views things different than you do?

[PickleRick]

Hosh4710, I am right there with you. You are accused of "looking down on everyone else" (paraphrase) but the truth is it isn't a downward view at all - I know because I share it.

The feelings I have are more along the lines of "How can Zion be established, when the vast majority believe that we ARE Zion, and not only that but "Zion prospereth!" As you pointed out, how can you seek the baptism of fire when you believe (and in most cases have been taught!) that this occurred at your confirmation? I would say it isn't even a pride issue - a person simply WILL NOT SEEK to obtain something they already believe they have! This isn't a condescending view! It's tragic, and to be mourned. And anyone that tries to drop the least few breadcrumbs to wake people up to OUR awful situation, gets you labelled as a "wannabe prophet" setting yourself up as a light, etc. The last thing I want is followers. Who would seek out that kind of responsibility over other peoples' salvation?

[SPIRIT]

I would say that righteousness will invariably lead to the ordinances. Every time.

Tell that to the worthy millions who lived in the dark ages. They have been waiting, are still waiting for their ordinance to be done in our temples.

We, just like ancient Israel, are way to focused on outward ordinances and the letter of the law. It is our great stumbling block that is keeping us from obtaining what we think we've already obtained. Most have not actually RECIEVED the gift of the Holy Ghost, the temporal ordinance was just an invitation. Most have not received the Melchizedek priesthood, the temporal ordinance was an invitation. Most have not been endowed with power from on high, the temple endowment is nothing more than a symbol, pointing towards the the actual spiritual event. The more we focus on these temporal symbols, thinking that they are the real deal, the more we become full of pride, thinking that we have something the rest of the world lacks. We are in the same state of blindness as ancient Israel, walking in darkness at noonday. Funny thing is about Israel, is they too had no idea just how lost and blind they were.

You can compare us to the Jews, but your downward view point of us reminds me of the pharisees the way they looked down on Christ.

actually, you remind me more of the pharisees (as a proud member) , because of their pride, thinking they were better than everyone, children of Abraham - the Lord's chosen people.

Matthew 3:9 (KJV)
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father:
for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones
to raise up children unto Abraham

*** Remember - "Jesus Christ who himself was sent of God, outside of church hierarchy, from humble and unlikely circumstances, to call people to repentance. The existing establishment of religious authority, most notably the Pharisees, claimed to be the conduit to God.
Thus, when the Conduit himself appeared before them, rebuking them with simplicity and boldness, they, following the pattern, desired to exile him."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

Isaiah’s Ancient Types of End-Time Events
Israel’s ancient apostasy typifies an end-time apostasy, with salvation reserved for some who repent.

Isaiah’s method of prophesying draws on events from ancient times as building blocks for predicting end-time events. Whatever set a precedent in the past may serve as a type of what happens in the future.
Thirty such types show how history repeats itself at the end of the world.

3 The ox knows its owner,
the @#$ its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;
my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,
a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,
perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel,
they have lapsed into apostasy.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state.
Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally. The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him. They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had. The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete. As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses.

[Rick Grimes]

Tell that to the worthy millions who lived in the dark ages. They have been waiting, are still waiting for their ordinance to be done in our temples.

We, just like ancient Israel, are way to focused on outward ordinances and the letter of the law. It is our great stumbling block that is keeping us from obtaining what we think we've already obtained. Most have not actually RECIEVED the gift of the Holy Ghost, the temporal ordinance was just an invitation. Most have not received the Melchizedek priesthood, the temporal ordinance was an invitation. Most have not been endowed with power from on high, the temple endowment is nothing more than a symbol, pointing towards the the actual spiritual event. The more we focus on these temporal symbols, thinking that they are the real deal, the more we become full of pride, thinking that we have something the rest of the world lacks. We are in the same state of blindness as ancient Israel, walking in darkness at noonday. Funny thing is about Israel, is they too had no idea just how lost and blind they were.

You can compare us to the Jews, but your downward view point of us reminds me of the pharisees the way they looked down on Christ.

actually, you remind me more of the pharisees (as a proud member) , because of their pride, thinking they were better than everyone, children of Abraham - the Lord's chosen people.

Matthew 3:9 (KJV)
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father:
for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones
to raise up children unto Abraham

*** Remember - "Jesus Christ who himself was sent of God, outside of church hierarchy, from humble and unlikely circumstances, to call people to repentance. The existing establishment of religious authority, most notably the Pharisees, claimed to be the conduit to God.
Thus, when the Conduit himself appeared before them, rebuking them with simplicity and boldness, they, following the pattern, desired to exile him."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

Isaiah’s Ancient Types of End-Time Events
Israel’s ancient apostasy typifies an end-time apostasy, with salvation reserved for some who repent.

Isaiah’s method of prophesying draws on events from ancient times as building blocks for predicting end-time events. Whatever set a precedent in the past may serve as a type of what happens in the future.
Thirty such types show how history repeats itself at the end of the world.

3 The ox knows its owner,
the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;
my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,
a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,
perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel,
they have lapsed into apostasy.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state.
Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally. The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him. They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had. The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete. As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses.

Hey brother, your random quotations of odd scriptures is not really all that convincing. Please notate scripture and provide your reason for citing it. Otherwise, it remains vague as to why you even cited it.

The pharisees were constantly calling others out for not observing their version of the law. They saw righteous people like John and Christ and still took issue with them. On this forum I notice a fea that take every aim at other members calling them out for "not having recieved the 2nd baptism" or "they dont have the TRUE spirit" or "the church is not true and you guys are so lost". Please spare the self righteous grand standing. I have never extolled any sort of righteousness or achievement that would puff me up. I am a sinner and acknowledge my unworthiness everyday. I am grateful to my Savior for His mercy towards me and my family. That being said, it upsets me when I see wolves in here tearing down people's testimonies for following the Lords' prophet and apostles. I may agree that they do not always make what I consider to be correct decisions, but I do nonetheless accept their stewardship and would never seek to take anybody away from our Lord's gospel. You fellows that speak the way you do, calling into question the veracity of standard works, the worthiness of past prophets, the smear campaign engaged on the church is just down right Judas-like.

[Hosh]

We, just like ancient Israel, are way to focused on outward ordinances and the letter of the law. It is our great stumbling block that is keeping us from obtaining what we think we've already obtained. Most have not actually RECIEVED the gift of the Holy Ghost, the temporal ordinance was just an invitation. Most have not received the Melchizedek priesthood, the temporal ordinance was an invitation. Most have not been endowed with power from on high, the temple endowment is nothing more than a symbol, pointing towards the the actual spiritual event. The more we focus on these temporal symbols, thinking that they are the real deal, the more we become full of pride, thinking that we have something the rest of the world lacks. We are in the same state of blindness as ancient Israel, walking in darkness at noonday. Funny thing is about Israel, is they too had no idea just how lost and blind they were.

You can compare us to the Jews, but your downward view point of us reminds me of the pharisees the way they looked down on Christ.

actually, you remind me more of the pharisees (as a proud member) , because of their pride, thinking they were better than everyone, children of Abraham - the Lord's chosen people.

Matthew 3:9 (KJV)
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father:
for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones
to raise up children unto Abraham

*** Remember - "Jesus Christ who himself was sent of God, outside of church hierarchy, from humble and unlikely circumstances, to call people to repentance. The existing establishment of religious authority, most notably the Pharisees, claimed to be the conduit to God.
Thus, when the Conduit himself appeared before them, rebuking them with simplicity and boldness, they, following the pattern, desired to exile him."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

Isaiah’s Ancient Types of End-Time Events
Israel’s ancient apostasy typifies an end-time apostasy, with salvation reserved for some who repent.

Isaiah’s method of prophesying draws on events from ancient times as building blocks for predicting end-time events. Whatever set a precedent in the past may serve as a type of what happens in the future.
Thirty such types show how history repeats itself at the end of the world.

3 The ox knows its owner,
the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;
my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,
a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,
perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel,
they have lapsed into apostasy.

From addressing his people personally as “Israel . . . my people” (v 3), Jehovah now addresses them impersonally as “a nation,” signifying their alienated state.
Additionally, a regression occurs from his people’s simply going “astray” to their burdening themselves with “sin,” which, over time, ends in outright “wrongdoing.” That occurs collectively and generationally. The “offspring of wrongdoers” turn into “perverse children,” meaning that the rising generation has by now become thoroughly corrupt. “Forsaking” Jehovah and “spurning” him finally become conscious and deliberate acts.

They have lapsed into apostasy. Hebrew nazoru ahor signifies that Jehovah’s people have become entirely “estranged” from him. They have “gone backwards” to what they used to be before they became Jehovah’s covenant people, when they didn’t know their God. In effect, they have become godless again like the world’s heathen nations, but now more so because they have rejected the light they once had. The apostasy into which they began to backslide a generation ago is now complete. As a consequence, instead of enjoying the blessings of the covenant, they must suffer its curses.

Hey brother, your random quotations of odd scriptures is not really all that convincing. Please notate scripture and provide your reason for citing it. Otherwise, it remains vague as to why you even cited it.

The pharisees were constantly calling others out for not observing their version of the law. They saw righteous people like John and Christ and still took issue with them. On this forum I notice a fea that take every aim at other members calling them out for "not having recieved the 2nd baptism" or "they dont have the TRUE spirit" or "the church is not true and you guys are so lost". Please spare the self righteous grand standing. I have never extolled any sort of righteousness or achievement that would puff me up. I am a sinner and acknowledge my unworthiness everyday. I am grateful to my Savior for His mercy towards me and my family. That being said, it upsets me when I see wolves in here tearing down people's testimonies for following the Lords' prophet and apostles. I may agree that they do not always make what I consider to be correct decisions, but I do nonetheless accept their stewardship and would never seek to take anybody away from our Lord's gospel. You fellows that speak the way you do, calling into question the veracity of standard works, the worthiness of past prophets, the smear campaign engaged on the church is just down right Judas-like.

Yeah me saying that the temple endowment is pointing to the actual endowment of power and is not the actual endowment from on high in itself is just down right Judas-like.

Me saying temporal ordinances are pointing us towards the actual spiritual manifestations puts me on the same level as betraying the Savior.

I'm a wolf for saying there is danger in thinking we have received something when we may not have. That maybe... Just maybe... What happened to ancient Israel is a type and shadow of what would happen to the Lord's people (us) in the last days.

Ok

[jmack]

I'm pretty sure a lot on this forum believe you don't need the true gospel or true church or ordinances, that none of that is important. Denver Snuffer used to think it was important, but not anymore. If you believe joseph smith, then being a member of God's true church and receiving ordinances was so important god and jesus christ actually appeared to him. But if you don't believe the church’s claims, then sure, it does not matter.

I believe the Gospel (good news) that Christ lives and that he suffered and died for our sins so we can be saved. I believe in the true Doctrine of Christ as taught in the Book of Mormon. The baptism of water and the baptism of fire are essential in becoming saved. I believe to receive eternal life, we must know God in a pure relationship, even to the point where we commune with Christ face to face.

Through my thorough study of ALL of Joseph’s “first vision” accounts, I have learned that Joseph was seeking remission of sins and the path to salvation, not necessarily which church was true. He wanted to know which church was teaching the correct principles of salvation. The Lord appeared and he was forgiven, and Joseph was given intruction.

I hope people here in this forum believe in salvation in Christ, and believe the gospel. This was the intent of my post. I thought these peoples’ experiences and witnesses of Christ would inspire others as it has inspired me.

Joseph was seeking salvation and a remission of sins and all churches claimed to offer that. What Joseph got from his experience in the sacred Grove was that none of the churches on earth offered it, and that a church was required to bring this power to God's children. You can't deny Joseph Smith organized a church, with Priesthood authority and saving ordinances. I know that's what is popular now and promoted among some here (no church necessary), but fact is, you can't deny that Joseph Smith did teach and claim authority to set up a church and your beliefs contradict his life's mission, what he died for.

[Mindfields]

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple. Faith, repentance and baptism (Water & Fire) Love God and Love your fellowman. No structured church needed, no fancy buildings, no brethren, no temples, no saving billions for the second coming, no lying for the Lord, no abominable beliefs (polygamy, blood atonement, baptism for the dead), treating others as lessors, or following and praising men.

Read the scriptures for what they actually say not what you've been taught. Let the spirit be your guide. The Book of Mormon can be true and the church not be true. Read and follow the words of Jesus. It's okay not to follow men nor defend them when they do and say immoral things. Consider that you might be wrong. Never believe you have all the truth or no need for any more truth.

[Alexander]

I'm pretty sure a lot on this forum believe you don't need the true gospel or true church or ordinances, that none of that is important. Denver Snuffer used to think it was important, but not anymore. If you believe joseph smith, then being a member of God's true church and receiving ordinances was so important god and jesus christ actually appeared to him. But if you don't believe the church’s claims, then sure, it does not matter.

I believe the Gospel (good news) that Christ lives and that he suffered and died for our sins so we can be saved. I believe in the true Doctrine of Christ as taught in the Book of Mormon. The baptism of water and the baptism of fire are essential in becoming saved. I believe to receive eternal life, we must know God in a pure relationship, even to the point where we commune with Christ face to face.

Through my thorough study of ALL of Joseph’s “first vision” accounts, I have learned that Joseph was seeking remission of sins and the path to salvation, not necessarily which church was true. He wanted to know which church was teaching the correct principles of salvation. The Lord appeared and he was forgiven, and Joseph was given intruction.

I hope people here in this forum believe in salvation in Christ, and believe the gospel. This was the intent of my post. I thought these peoples’ experiences and witnesses of Christ would inspire others as it has inspired me.

Joseph was seeking salvation and a remission of sins and all churches claimed to offer that. What Joseph got from his experience in the sacred Grove was that none of the churches on earth offered it, and that a church was required to bring this power to God's children. You can't deny Joseph Smith organized a church, with Priesthood authority and saving ordinances. I know that's what is popular now and promoted among some here (no church necessary), but fact is, you can't deny that Joseph Smith did teach and claim authority to set up a church and your beliefs contradict his life's mission, what he died for.

Yes. Jospeh Smith received authority from God to establish a church in a similar way that Alma established a church. Joseph restored knowledge of the new and everlasting covenant (not of marriage. The new and everlasting covenant =/= celestial marriage). I believe that the essence of the gospel was already there, but it wasn’t plainly laid out. Anyone who was actively learning by the spirit in the Bible, could understand the gospel. This happened to Jospeh. He mourned for his sins and the sins of the world because he noticed nobody among the different sects were abiding by a holy walk with God. He saw that all had apostasized from the true and living faith that was found in the Bible.

That’s why Joseph translated the Book of Mormon. It plainly lays the path we must take to salvation. Salvation is in and through Christ. He is the beginning and the end. Salvation isn’t hindered upon our church activity, our temple ordinances, or other dead works. Salvation comes from the baptism of fire/spirit, because of Christ’s atonement. This even comes as we fully repent and cry out for it in faith. Baptism of repentance (water) is a sign to God we want to come unto him. This is clearly explained in the Book of Mormon. The institution can do nothing of worth but point you to Christ. He is the one who is mighty to save.
The church Joseph established was a group of people with similar beliefs. The Lord led out a righteous group and taught them his ways. Just like Alma’s church. He would preach correct principles, and the people would govern themselves. It wasn’t until later that church hierarchy and authority became important. Not two years after the church was established, it fell under condemnation for not abiding by the teachings in the Book of Mormon, and for not coming unto the lord and partaking of his fullness (D&C 84). Jospeh restored knowledge this fullness of having a relationship with God (Melchizedek priesthood), to become saved and experience the second comforter.
The lord prophesied that the gentiles would sin against the fullness of the gospel, and the fullness would be taken out from among them (3 Nephi 16). These videos I shared are a witness of others who are not of our faith, receiving the fullness of the gospel, which is the testimony of Christ (D&C 76:14). Perhaps we should come out from under condemnation through repentance, and come unto Jesus Christ (literally) and partake of his fullness.

I’m not sure how beliefs don’t contradict what Joseph died for.

[cab]

If they aren't LDS, then they havent accepted the fullness of the gospel. How can post this and still have a testimony of the restoration?

Hate to break it to you, but almost all in the church have not accepted the fullness of the Gospel...

Or in other words, despite having had hands placed on their head during their confirmation, they have not been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost (aka born again, spiritually begotten, mighty change of heart, partaken of the love of God, etc etc etc)