Plates of Laman

[Robin Hood]

"perception is reality"

Is it though?

I'm not trying to attack or defend. Just tossing out a passive question off-the-cuff.

It is to the perceiver.

[mahalanobis]

"perception is reality"

Is it though?

I'm not trying to attack or defend. Just tossing out a passive question off-the-cuff.

It is to the perceiver.

Does each person have a different reality? If so, is there no objective version of what's real?

[JustDan]

I wouldn't say Nephi's view of events was wrong or skewed by his own bias, but I do have some empathy for Laman and Lemuel's position as normal people, and they certainly are not the "bad guys" we portray them to be. Not that they were 'good' either, but to be fair to them, they followed their Father, respected him (mostly), and heeded to the commands that they were given.

That is more than we can say of many lds - perhaps even ourselves - today.

On the contrary, they certainly had enough darkness that they were willing to attack their own brother and do him harm, and ultimately inspired their offspring to go to war with their family i.e. nephites.

In any case, there is no escaping the obvious bias of Nephi (humorous that it is) when we read him frequently refer to himself as being large in stature. Not exactly humble? That's like me writing an account about my brothers and then for no good reason announcing that I am quite muscular... over and over again... ha!!

[JohnnyL]

Lately I have been thinking about the story of Nephi. His vision, his willingness to obey his father, his killing of Laban and obtaining the brass plates, his heroics in making a bow and obtaining food for everyone, his boat building... and so on.
It occured to me that this is all very Nephi-centric. He is clearly the good guy and the hero according to, well.... him!
I wonder what the Plates of Laman would have to say about it.
Does anyone else feel sympathy toward, or empathy with, Laman/Lemuel?

Yes, it is very Nephi-centric: https://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com ... phite-lam/

His writing like that likely convinced the people of Ammon (and others?) of the incorrectness of their fathers' traditions.

[JohnnyL]

It is clear that in a book written by mere mortals and edited by other imperfect humans there are aspects that tell us about the thought process of the authors. A good example is the Nephite propaganda in Mosiah 10:12-17

12 They were a wild, and ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people, believing in the tradition of their fathers, which is this—Believing that they were driven out of the land of Jerusalem because of the iniquities of their fathers, and that they were wronged in the wilderness by their brethren, and they were also wronged while crossing the sea;
13 And again, that they were wronged while in the land of their first inheritance, after they had crossed the sea, and all this because that Nephi was more faithful in keeping the commandments of the Lord—therefore he was favored of the Lord, for the Lord heard his prayers and answered them, and he took the lead of their journey in the wilderness.
14 And his brethren were wroth with him because they understood not the dealings of the Lord; they were also wroth with him upon the waters because they hardened their hearts against the Lord.
15 And again, they were wroth with him when they had arrived in the promised land, because they said that he had taken the ruling of the people out of their hands; and they sought to kill him.
16 And again, they were wroth with him because he departed into the wilderness as the Lord had commanded him, and took the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, for they said that he robbed them.
17 And thus they have taught their children that they should hate them, and that they should murder them, and that they should rob and plunder them, and do all they could to destroy them; therefore they have an eternal hatred towards the children of Nephi.

Verse 13 makes it clear that this is a Nephite view of Lamanites, not an accurate description by an objective observer. Lamanite themself wouldn't talk about Nephi's faith.

Similarly, something of Nephi's views has likely ended up in his writings.

Why is that Nephite propaganda? It's true?

https://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com ... -by-grego/

[JohnnyL]

Does anyone else feel sympathy toward, or empathy with, Laman/Lemuel?

I think if we gave an honest look at Laman, Lemuel, and ourselves, we would identify a lot more with them, than with Nephi. They weren't wicked from the beginning--they were waivering somewhere in the middle, at least for a while. There were times when they were righteous, and times when they weren't. They endured a ton of trials that would probably have broken most of us. Eventually, they spiritually descended, of course, but I think they held out as long as they could, given the circumstances.

From the beginning, they weren't ever really good, and were their own worst curse--their unrighteousness held everyone else back and caused others, and themselves, to suffer.

[h_p]

From the beginning, they weren't ever really good, and were their own worst curse--their unrighteousness held everyone else back and caused others, and themselves, to suffer.

So say we all (or at least, we should be). Which was my point entirely.

[Bronco73idi]

"perception is reality"

Is it though?

I'm not trying to attack or defend. Just tossing out a passive question off-the-cuff.

It is to the perceiver.

I think you guys have missed the boat about Laman and Lemuel, they were lazy freeloaders...... Obedient to move with their father or what would they do without daddy?

Someone needs to kill uncle....... Nephi knew his worthless brothers wouldn’t man up!

Just my opinion.

Real question, is Lehi a prophet to the Jewish people or just a patriarchal man who took action when the spirit told him too? Are we going to be man enough to do the same?

I think Abraham 3:19-23 can show us the difference between someone like Nephi and his older brothers.

[inho]

It is clear that in a book written by mere mortals and edited by other imperfect humans there are aspects that tell us about the thought process of the authors. A good example is the Nephite propaganda in Mosiah 10:12-17

12 They were a wild, and ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people, believing in the tradition of their fathers, which is this—Believing that they were driven out of the land of Jerusalem because of the iniquities of their fathers, and that they were wronged in the wilderness by their brethren, and they were also wronged while crossing the sea;
13 And again, that they were wronged while in the land of their first inheritance, after they had crossed the sea, and all this because that Nephi was more faithful in keeping the commandments of the Lord—therefore he was favored of the Lord, for the Lord heard his prayers and answered them, and he took the lead of their journey in the wilderness.
14 And his brethren were wroth with him because they understood not the dealings of the Lord; they were also wroth with him upon the waters because they hardened their hearts against the Lord.
15 And again, they were wroth with him when they had arrived in the promised land, because they said that he had taken the ruling of the people out of their hands; and they sought to kill him.
16 And again, they were wroth with him because he departed into the wilderness as the Lord had commanded him, and took the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, for they said that he robbed them.
17 And thus they have taught their children that they should hate them, and that they should murder them, and that they should rob and plunder them, and do all they could to destroy them; therefore they have an eternal hatred towards the children of Nephi.

Verse 13 makes it clear that this is a Nephite view of Lamanites, not an accurate description by an objective observer. Lamanite themself wouldn't talk about Nephi's faith.

Similarly, something of Nephi's views has likely ended up in his writings.

Why is that Nephite propaganda? It's true?

https://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com ... -by-grego/

I call it propaganda because in those verses Zeniff portrays Lamanites all bad. This is the same Zeniff who earlier said that "when I saw that which was good among them I was desirous that they should not be destroyed." What is his motivation to talk about the evil nature of Lamanites in first place? In verse 19 we read "And now I, Zeniff, after having told all these things unto my people concerning the Lamanites, I did stimulate them to go to battle with their might". His words were clearly just war propaganda.

[JohnnyL]

It is clear that in a book written by mere mortals and edited by other imperfect humans there are aspects that tell us about the thought process of the authors. A good example is the Nephite propaganda in Mosiah 10:12-17

12 They were a wild, and ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people, believing in the tradition of their fathers, which is this—Believing that they were driven out of the land of Jerusalem because of the iniquities of their fathers, and that they were wronged in the wilderness by their brethren, and they were also wronged while crossing the sea;
13 And again, that they were wronged while in the land of their first inheritance, after they had crossed the sea, and all this because that Nephi was more faithful in keeping the commandments of the Lord—therefore he was favored of the Lord, for the Lord heard his prayers and answered them, and he took the lead of their journey in the wilderness.
14 And his brethren were wroth with him because they understood not the dealings of the Lord; they were also wroth with him upon the waters because they hardened their hearts against the Lord.
15 And again, they were wroth with him when they had arrived in the promised land, because they said that he had taken the ruling of the people out of their hands; and they sought to kill him.
16 And again, they were wroth with him because he departed into the wilderness as the Lord had commanded him, and took the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, for they said that he robbed them.
17 And thus they have taught their children that they should hate them, and that they should murder them, and that they should rob and plunder them, and do all they could to destroy them; therefore they have an eternal hatred towards the children of Nephi.

Verse 13 makes it clear that this is a Nephite view of Lamanites, not an accurate description by an objective observer. Lamanite themself wouldn't talk about Nephi's faith.

Similarly, something of Nephi's views has likely ended up in his writings.

Why is that Nephite propaganda? It's true?

https://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com ... -by-grego/

I call it propaganda because in those verses Zeniff portrays Lamanites all bad. This is the same Zeniff who earlier said that "when I saw that which was good among them I was desirous that they should not be destroyed." What is his motivation to talk about the evil nature of Lamanites in first place? In verse 19 we read "And now I, Zeniff, after having told all these things unto my people concerning the Lamanites, I did stimulate them to go to battle with their might". His words were clearly just war propaganda.

Zeniff admits he was duped. I'm guessing he saw they had a stable society, with much love among the families. He had hoped that would transfer to the Nephites. As he had learned: Not.

Someone also didn't read the articles...

[JohnnyL]

I think if we gave an honest look at Laman, Lemuel, and ourselves, we would identify a lot more with them, than with Nephi. They weren't wicked from the beginning--they were waivering somewhere in the middle, at least for a while. There were times when they were righteous, and times when they weren't. They endured a ton of trials that would probably have broken most of us. Eventually, they spiritually descended, of course, but I think they held out as long as they could, given the circumstances.

From the beginning, they weren't ever really good, and were their own worst curse--their unrighteousness held everyone else back and caused others, and themselves, to suffer.

So say we all (or at least, we should be). Which was my point entirely.

But then, maybe I should have been clearer: they were wicked from the beginning. Dad's a fool, let's kill Nephi, let's kill Dad and Nephi, let's take over, let's kill Nephi, let's kill them all, etc. Murmur, complain, blame, the entire time. Nephi rebukes them, Holy Ghost rebukes them, angel rebukes them, God's voice rebukes them. There were moments of repentance, at best, that didn't last long.

[inho]

Someone also didn't read the articles...

If you are referring the blog post you linked, I didn't find it useful in interpreting the passage I quoted.

[JohnnyL]

Someone also didn't read the articles...

If you are referring the blog post you linked, I didn't find it useful in interpreting the passage I quoted.

I agree, there was something more in your post.

There are four articles about Nephites' bias towards the Lamanites. The articles put your passage (not necessarily your comments) in context with maybe every other "biased" passage about the Lamanites.

Even the Lamanites (people of Ammon) admitted their grossest iniquities and sins.

[sandman45]

Lately I have been thinking about the story of Nephi. His vision, his willingness to obey his father, his killing of Laban and obtaining the brass plates, his heroics in making a bow and obtaining food for everyone, his boat building... and so on.
It occured to me that this is all very Nephi-centric. He is clearly the good guy and the hero according to, well.... him!
I wonder what the Plates of Laman would have to say about it.
Does anyone else feel sympathy toward, or empathy with, Laman/Lemuel?

Definitely especially when they create cartoons and other art depicting Laman and Lemuel as bearded bad guys and Nephi and Sam clean shaven. If anything all the men in that family had beards.

[JohnnyL]

Responding to this and similar posts:

No, I have no sympathy for them. They tried to murder their father and brother. And no, Nephi's account is not a propaganda piece. 2 Nephi 4 suggests Nephi saw himself in real terms.

I'm not sure they really tried to murder Nephi or Lehi. The wording is ambiguous and can be interpreted in more than one way.
The only murdering that actually took place was when Nephi killed Laban.
Prisons are filled with people who say God told them to kill someone.

Yes, they tried.
No, Nephi did not murder Laban. He slew him.
If it were in a USA court of law, yes, he would be up for murder, and very possibly convicted, especially in a corrupted system.
However, he was not in a USA court of law, or under the laws of the USA. This is key.
He was, however, also in a corrupt system.

Here are some articles that give many more arguments for why it was definitely not murder--even if the Spirit had been silent on the matter.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/jbms/vol16/iss1/5/
https://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com ... muel-lehi/

After reading all that (and it's a lot, ha, I don't remember it all, I just remember lots of good and legal reasons)--imagine that you are Nephi. This military leader, who is above the law, especially in a corrupt city ready for destruction, has tried to kill your brother, and you and your brothers. His law says that your life is forfeit because of robbery; then, he robbed you of all your riches. If he sees you again, he will kill you. In fact, his guards might be searching for you and your family right now. If he finds you, there is little doubt you will all die. He likely already killed other prophets. There is very little law in Jerusalem. They are cut off from the Lord; He has decreed their destruction. He has something locked up that you absolutely need ...

[Robin Hood]

I have given more thought to the slaying of Laban in recent days.
Imagine being the poor man, woman or (heaven forbid) child who discovered the body the next day. A headless disrobed torso with the severed head laying nearby. Blood everywhere etc. An horrific scene.
Then the investigation. Everyone with whom Laban had been drinking the night before was under suspicion. What was the motive, and why take his clothing?
Then it is discovered that Laban's servant is nowhere to be found. Is he dead too, or is he the culprit and has skipped town. But if he is the murderer, why kill him in the street?

I think the Jerusalem authorities would have been baffled. Perhaps upon investigation they discovered Laban had recently entertained visitors and had, seemingly coincidently, suddenly become a great deal richer. On the other hand perhaps he had told his drinking buddies about his fortune and how some religious nut jobs had tried to trade him for his family heirloom, but he'd got the better of them.

I find this all quite thought provoking.
Ultimately I suspect Zoram would have been blamed because it would seem he could have no other reason to leave his job and skip town. Strange that he didn't take the treasure with him though. And in a final twist, the heirloom appears to be missing.

[JohnnyL]

I have given more thought to the slaying of Laban in recent days.
Imagine being the poor man, woman or (heaven forbid) child who discovered the body the next day. A headless disrobed torso with the severed head laying nearby. Blood everywhere etc. An horrific scene.
Then the investigation. Everyone with whom Laban had been drinking the night before was under suspicion. What was the motive, and why take his clothing?
Then it is discovered that Laban's servant is nowhere to be found. Is he dead too, or is he the culprit and has skipped town. But if he is the murderer, why kill him in the street?

I think the Jerusalem authorities would have been baffled. Perhaps upon investigation they discovered Laban had recently entertained visitors and had, seemingly coincidently, suddenly become a great deal richer. On the other hand perhaps he had told his drinking buddies about his fortune and how some religious nut jobs had tried to trade him for his family heirloom, but he'd got the better of them.

I find this all quite thought provoking.
Ultimately I suspect Zoram would have been blamed because it would seem he could have no other reason to leave his job and skip town. Strange that he didn't take the treasure with him though. And in a final twist, the heirloom appears to be missing.

If he had gone back he would have been a dead man, even if he had raised an alarm.

[Robin Hood]

I think the slaying of Laban really annoyed Laman and Lemuel. It is after this incident that they got a lot more aggressive towards Nephi, though not apparently towards Sam. Perhaps they realised that because of what Nephi had done, none of them could never go back to Jerusalem. Their was a possibility the authorities would pin the murder on them and they just couldn't risk it.
"Thanks a lot Nephi!".... I can almost hear them say it.

[inho]

I think the slaying of Laban really annoyed Laman and Lemuel. It is after this incident that they got a lot more aggressive towards Nephi, though not apparently towards Sam. Perhaps they realised that because of what Nephi had done, none of them could never go back to Jerusalem. Their was a possibility the authorities would pin the murder on them and they just couldn't risk it.
"Thanks a lot Nephi!".... I can almost hear them say it.

I wonder if they had really grasped that they had left Jerusalem for good. Maybe they thought that Lehi was taking them to wilderness for just a brief period and then they could return. At this point, nobody knew what and where the promised land was. They were still so close to Jerusalem that going back for getting the plates was possible. But as you said, after the death of Laban, that wasn't an option anymore.

[bbsion]

Laman and Lemuel are more of the world (in the great and spacious building). Of course we can identify with them more than Nephi sometimes. When we identify though, that's a red flag. They were evil. They are what we shouldn't be. A warning of what not to do. If you believe Nephi was a murderer and self righteous etc., you are definitely speaking evil of one of God's anointed. The guilty has a hard time digesting truth. The goal is to shed the natural man (the Laman and Lemuel) we identify with, not spin the truth to feel better about being imperfect.

[nightlight]

"The truth is relative" crowd is growing in the church. "What about his feeling!!!!" Blah blah blah blah



30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad

[Robin Hood]

I think the slaying of Laban really annoyed Laman and Lemuel. It is after this incident that they got a lot more aggressive towards Nephi, though not apparently towards Sam. Perhaps they realised that because of what Nephi had done, none of them could never go back to Jerusalem. Their was a possibility the authorities would pin the murder on them and they just couldn't risk it.
"Thanks a lot Nephi!".... I can almost hear them say it.

I wonder if they had really grasped that they had left Jerusalem for good. Maybe they thought that Lehi was taking them to wilderness for just a brief period and then they could return. At this point, nobody knew what and where the promised land was. They were still so close to Jerusalem that going back for getting the plates was possible. But as you said, after the death of Laban, that wasn't an option anymore.

Exactly. You said it much better than me.

[JohnnyL]

Later, Laman and Lemuel were ready to go back with Ishmael's sons.

Maybe when the angel's words came true, they were chagrined. Nephi had beat them. He was mightier, and he was set to become king.