Personal revelation and coming home from mission

[johnBob]

The Word of God that comes to my mind regarding this is “Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word, and then shall your tongue be loosed; then, if you desire, you shall have my Spirit and my word, yea, the power of God unto the convincing of men.”

Yeah that's a great Scripture, I really appreciate it-you back me up. Missionaries go to the MTC, spend 6-12 weeks learning the Word, then every day have at least 2 hours of Scripture study learning God's Word, and most likely a lot more-I probably studied at least 3 hours a day on my mission.

But I'm absolutely positive that tyler here now that God has "released him" from the shackles of being a missionary spends more time than he ever would beforehand actually obtaining God's Word?

Right? Since coming home, he has dedicated his life to being a monk-studying 4+ hours a day to know God's Word. Right?

Please, this guy is just using the 2nd baptism as an excuse to come home and live a life of ease, maybe date, maybe work, maybe go to school but actually do what you say, I don't think so. So many people snookered . . .so sad.

So tyler, please do tell us about your current life and how you are (now that you are home) obtaining God's word on a much higher elevated plane than as a missionary.

I'm sure you are really supping from God's Word . . .especially with a username like Tyler Durden:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Narrator_(Fight_Club)

Tyler Durden, the username used at places like Zerohedge (I like zerohedge) as an acroynm for an individual who doesn't exist-a fictitious imaginary person. Tyler Durden didn't actually exist in the movie-just like it's possible this tyler whoever he is doesn't really exist either . . .but people fall for it . . . .

All it takes to snooker so many members is to use the right phrases, the right terms, the right words and that person could sell members a turd sandwhich. "God told me about 2nd baptism and then he told me to marry my same-sex boyfriend". I felt all warm inside when I asked if I should marry him. I clearly heard God say "yes", when I thought about asking for a sign-I felt bad inside. I felt just sooo bad whenever I thought about not marrying my bestest most wonderfulest friend in the world. I know God has blessed my marriage, I've felt His spirit confirm to me by telling me "yes" that what I'm doing is right.
-----------------
Yeap, that's all it takes, nobody knows the Scriptures anymore so they can't see through the utter BS.

[Alexander]

.

[sandman45]

What "false teachings" was your mission teaching?

What hypocrisy did you witness in the church that would cause you to go home?

I agree with a good portion of what you wrote with regards to following the spirit and such, but I'm confused when you wrote these statements as to the prelude to your pondering going home.

Things like baptism of water washes away sins, and the sacrament makes you clean. I heard the leadership including an area 70 teach the missionaries that the number of baptisms was the most important thing. We were teaching that salvation is in the temple, and we were denying the power of God. I saw a lot of pride. We would boast in our success as missionaries. We would boast about how our church was best to other people. Service projects (even the ones done by the mission overall) were done without charity and focused on pushing the name of the church out to others, and not to fully help others. Everything had nothing to do with Christ. I read through the Book of Mormon and saw all of the prophecies come to pass in our day in our church. I saw the missionaries put down others from other faiths and mock and laugh at humble Christians. I saw bickering. I saw missionaries leave the beggars on the street and pass them by as if they were nobody. I saw lessons and discussions without the spirit. I saw class separation. I saw missionaries without the gift of the Holy Ghost. I saw humble repentant sinners denied baptism because they couldn’t abandon smoking. I saw self righteousness. I saw idol worship. Pride and prejudice abounded. I saw the Doctrine of Christ was changed and added upon. “All is well in Zion” was the common theme among the mission.

I took all of this in. I struggled for months of heartbreak, and loneliness, and fear until I asked the lord what I should do, and he told me to come home, and seek the baptism of fire.

I left because the Lord told me to, and I can’t deny that.

A lot of those examples are taught in my ward here in salt lake valley area. I then teach correct doctrine to my kids and point out the errors of the false doctrine being taught.

I’m so sick of false doctrine being taught and ordinances being changed in the temple. Prophecies are for sure coming true and the Latter Day Saints have been slowly losing the truth since they have been rejecting the truth.

Glad you noticed it way earlier than I did. Keep following the spirit and trust in God and NOT in the arm of flesh!

[Rick Grimes]

The Word of God that comes to my mind regarding this is “Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word, and then shall your tongue be loosed; then, if you desire, you shall have my Spirit and my word, yea, the power of God unto the convincing of men.”

Yeah that's a great Scripture, I really appreciate it-you back me up. Missionaries go to the MTC, spend 6-12 weeks learning the Word, then every day have at least 2 hours of Scripture study learning God's Word, and most likely a lot more-I probably studied at least 3 hours a day on my mission.

But I'm absolutely positive that tyler here now that God has "released him" from the shackles of being a missionary spends more time than he ever would beforehand actually obtaining God's Word?

Right? Since coming home, he has dedicated his life to being a monk-studying 4+ hours a day to know God's Word. Right?

Please, this guy is just using the 2nd baptism as an excuse to come home and live a life of ease, maybe date, maybe work, maybe go to school but actually do what you say, I don't think so. So many people snookered . . .so sad.

So tyler, please do tell us about your current life and how you are (now that you are home) obtaining God's word on a much higher elevated plane than as a missionary.

I'm sure you are really supping from God's Word . . .especially with a username like Tyler Durden:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Narrator_(Fight_Club)

Tyler Durden, the username used at places like Zerohedge (I like zerohedge) as an acroynm for an individual who doesn't exist-a fictitious imaginary person. Tyler Durden didn't actually exist in the movie-just like it's possible this tyler whoever he is doesn't really exist either . . .but people fall for it . . . .

All it takes to snooker so many members is to use the right phrases, the right terms, the right words and that person could sell members a turd sandwhich. "God told me about 2nd baptism and then he told me to marry my same-sex boyfriend". I felt all warm inside when I asked if I should marry him. I clearly heard God say "yes", when I thought about asking for a sign-I felt bad inside. I felt just sooo bad whenever I thought about not marrying my bestest most wonderfulest friend in the world. I know God has blessed my marriage, I've felt His spirit confirm to me by telling me "yes" that what I'm doing is right.
-----------------
Yeap, that's all it takes, nobody knows the Scriptures anymore so they can't see through the utter BS.

I may not agree with Taylor's reasonings either, but trying to shame him isnt going to change anything at this point. Serving a mission is tough. Stress, mental illness, homesickness, "mission life", can all take their toll on somebody. None of us where there for this young man's prayer or answer. I'm not saying that he did get his answer from God, but the choice he made wasnt a sin. Sister missionaries go home early all the time because they cant wait to marry their sweetheart back home, and we high five them for making that choice. You can say, "But they're sisters, they dont have to go on missions". However, to follow several people's logic used against this boy, those sisters were also called by a prophet to serve for a specified time in a specified area. Why do they get to pray and say, "God is telling me to go home."? And we dont even bat an eye to it, or call them out for "disobeying the prophet"! I say lay off this boy and let him gain his testimony. I'm sure he has had his fill of opposing viewpoints that might make him rethink his earlier thoughts, and maybe might grow from it. I find the attacks on this young man mean spirited and contrary to the spirit of God.

[johnBob]

The Word of God that comes to my mind regarding this is “Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word, and then shall your tongue be loosed; then, if you desire, you shall have my Spirit and my word, yea, the power of God unto the convincing of men.”

Yeah that's a great Scripture, I really appreciate it-you back me up. Missionaries go to the MTC, spend 6-12 weeks learning the Word, then every day have at least 2 hours of Scripture study learning God's Word, and most likely a lot more-I probably studied at least 3 hours a day on my mission.

But I'm absolutely positive that tyler here now that God has "released him" from the shackles of being a missionary spends more time than he ever would beforehand actually obtaining God's Word?

Right? Since coming home, he has dedicated his life to being a monk-studying 4+ hours a day to know God's Word. Right?

Please, this guy is just using the 2nd baptism as an excuse to come home and live a life of ease, maybe date, maybe work, maybe go to school but actually do what you say, I don't think so. So many people snookered . . .so sad.

So tyler, please do tell us about your current life and how you are (now that you are home) obtaining God's word on a much higher elevated plane than as a missionary.

I'm sure you are really supping from God's Word . . .especially with a username like Tyler Durden:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Narrator_(Fight_Club)

Tyler Durden, the username used at places like Zerohedge (I like zerohedge) as an acroynm for an individual who doesn't exist-a fictitious imaginary person. Tyler Durden didn't actually exist in the movie-just like it's possible this tyler whoever he is doesn't really exist either . . .but people fall for it . . . .

All it takes to snooker so many members is to use the right phrases, the right terms, the right words and that person could sell members a turd sandwhich. "God told me about 2nd baptism and then he told me to marry my same-sex boyfriend". I felt all warm inside when I asked if I should marry him. I clearly heard God say "yes", when I thought about asking for a sign-I felt bad inside. I felt just sooo bad whenever I thought about not marrying my bestest most wonderfulest friend in the world. I know God has blessed my marriage, I've felt His spirit confirm to me by telling me "yes" that what I'm doing is right.
-----------------
Yeap, that's all it takes, nobody knows the Scriptures anymore so they can't see through the utter BS.

My username is specifically based off of the movie Fight Club. Tyler is a symbol of everything the narrator was afraid to do, and everything the narrator wants to be. I chose this name because I am able to freely express my thoughts here, while having a name that reflects who I am. Besides, it was about the message, and not the messenger anyways. hence why I’m anonymous. Through this medium I am expressing what I was afraid to do before, and what I want to be now. I’m showing how I was broken and how I want to become better. I also am having an identity crisis like Tyler. Who am I? What do I believe? Who do I trust? I figured the name fit. But I guess because I’m anonymous, I’m less reliable? Aren’t there many people on this forum who are anonymous? Why target me because of my name? You’re just giving an ad hominem attack.

You’re assuming my action was against God’s word, and are relating it to justifying sexual sin and/or homosexuality. I’m not saying it is right to justify homosexuality.

Why doubt my capacity to receive true revelation from the lord and deny my revelations? If my revelation was confirmed by the Lord, wouldn’t it be true?

“Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually [received] a [revelation]; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually [received]? For I had [received a revelation]; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.”

Now you are being a little more honest.

If you want to claim you are as Joseph Smith you are free to do so, but man that's a pretty egotistical claim don't you think?

Joseph Smith who saw God and translated the Book of Mormon, a man who had actual works to back up his claim of seeing God. Works and evidences and you are like him?

You, who are having an identity crisis are like Joseph Smith?

That's pretty ballsy-hey man have at it. If you can produce a work like the Book of Mormon and your works or evidences after receiving this revelation from God are like unto Joseph, go for it.

[Alaris]

“Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually [received] a [revelation]; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually [received]? For I had [received a revelation]; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.”

"Tyler" - you could make just about any statement about anything here, and there will be those who chime in and tell you how wrong you are. I read your reasoning, and I too felt it's a little suspect but so what? You know whether God answered you. Some day, God will either high five you or say, 'Really?" You know which is coming.

That all said, though I applaud you for the bravery of telling your story here, why are you telling it? Are you trying to help others - and if so how? Or, are you looking for validation? Some other third thing?

Imagine if every single active member of our church each took turn witnessing a modern day version of Nephi slaying Laban. Let's say they don't know either man - they just watch a man walk up to a drunken man and gat him in a dark alley. How would they react by and large? Could they know for themselves that the "murderer" was doing the Lord's will? Should they know? Does it matter? See what I mean?

[johnBob]

The Word of God that comes to my mind regarding this is “Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word, and then shall your tongue be loosed; then, if you desire, you shall have my Spirit and my word, yea, the power of God unto the convincing of men.”

Yeah that's a great Scripture, I really appreciate it-you back me up. Missionaries go to the MTC, spend 6-12 weeks learning the Word, then every day have at least 2 hours of Scripture study learning God's Word, and most likely a lot more-I probably studied at least 3 hours a day on my mission.

But I'm absolutely positive that tyler here now that God has "released him" from the shackles of being a missionary spends more time than he ever would beforehand actually obtaining God's Word?

Right? Since coming home, he has dedicated his life to being a monk-studying 4+ hours a day to know God's Word. Right?

Please, this guy is just using the 2nd baptism as an excuse to come home and live a life of ease, maybe date, maybe work, maybe go to school but actually do what you say, I don't think so. So many people snookered . . .so sad.

So tyler, please do tell us about your current life and how you are (now that you are home) obtaining God's word on a much higher elevated plane than as a missionary.

I'm sure you are really supping from God's Word . . .especially with a username like Tyler Durden:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Narrator_(Fight_Club)

Tyler Durden, the username used at places like Zerohedge (I like zerohedge) as an acroynm for an individual who doesn't exist-a fictitious imaginary person. Tyler Durden didn't actually exist in the movie-just like it's possible this tyler whoever he is doesn't really exist either . . .but people fall for it . . . .

All it takes to snooker so many members is to use the right phrases, the right terms, the right words and that person could sell members a turd sandwhich. "God told me about 2nd baptism and then he told me to marry my same-sex boyfriend". I felt all warm inside when I asked if I should marry him. I clearly heard God say "yes", when I thought about asking for a sign-I felt bad inside. I felt just sooo bad whenever I thought about not marrying my bestest most wonderfulest friend in the world. I know God has blessed my marriage, I've felt His spirit confirm to me by telling me "yes" that what I'm doing is right.
-----------------
Yeap, that's all it takes, nobody knows the Scriptures anymore so they can't see through the utter BS.

I may not agree with Taylor's reasonings either, but trying to shame him isnt going to change anything at this point. Serving a mission is tough. Stress, mental illness, homesickness, "mission life", can all take their toll on somebody. None of us where there for this young man's prayer or answer. I'm not saying that he did get his answer from God, but the choice he made wasnt a sin. Sister missionaries go home early all the time because they cant wait to marry their sweetheart back home, and we high five them for making that choice. You can say, "But they're sisters, they dont have to go on missions". However, to follow several people's logic used against this boy, those sisters were also called by a prophet to serve for a specified time in a specified area. Why do they get to pray and say, "God is telling me to go home."? And we dont even bat an eye to it, or call them out for "disobeying the prophet"! I say lay off this boy and let him gain his testimony. I'm sure he has had his fill of opposing viewpoints that might make him rethink his earlier thoughts, and maybe might grow from it. I find the attacks on this young man mean spirited and contrary to the spirit of God.

I respect your opinion Rick, but I'm not being mean-spirited (that requires assuming intent and you know nothing of my intent).

There is a point which I am making and it's a hard point, but one that needs to be made and it most certainly isn't being made out of an intent to harm or to shame.

I don't blame the young man for what happened, only in the erroneous teaching which has lead him to the conclusion which he has come to. That erroneous conclusion is that as a people-we don't teach people how to actually receive answer from God.

Because we don't actually teach how answers come, but leave it to some idea of "I simply just felt good about it", we open ourselves up as a people to be swayed about by every hairbrained idea that pops into the mind of man.

It's why I keep bringing up the homosexual-because if you want to learn how to fight in these last days, you better learn how to discern between the Spirit of God and the Spirit of the Devil-because if you don't you won't have a clue when it comes time to really discern.

[Thinker]

Yeah that's a great Scripture, I really appreciate it-you back me up. Missionaries go to the MTC, spend 6-12 weeks learning the Word, then every day have at least 2 hours of Scripture study learning God's Word, and most likely a lot more-I probably studied at least 3 hours a day on my mission.

But I'm absolutely positive that tyler here now that God has "released him" from the shackles of being a missionary spends more time than he ever would beforehand actually obtaining God's Word?

Right? Since coming home, he has dedicated his life to being a monk-studying 4+ hours a day to know God's Word. Right?

Please, this guy is just using the 2nd baptism as an excuse...

...Yeap, that's all it takes, nobody knows the Scriptures anymore so they can't see through the utter BS.

JohnBob,
Have you ever read the intro to the Book or Mormon? It states that these writings are by fallible people like you and I...

• “...if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God”

“Word” does not mean scripture - think about it - “Word made flesh.” I’ve come to see words as means of healing - bringing chaos into order.

Don’t have false gods. You’re making scriptures out to be your highest god. Speaking of BS, no wonder Utah led the nation in anti-depressants and mental illness. According to studies in a book by lds authors (Brent & Wendy Topp), it is estimated that up to 80% of mental illness is rooted in dysfunctional interpretations of religious doctrines.

A study sought to discover what, if any, influence religious involvement had on physical health. Of 3 groups, those not religiously involved and those excessively religiously involved did poorest. Those moderately religiously involved did best. Other studies that showed those most involved (pastors, bishops, missionaries etc), had much higher rates of depression & anxiety.

American Family Foundation:

• Characteristics of a cult:
  "The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
  *Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
  *The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth).
  *The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (ie: no financial transparency)."

For several more extensive lists: http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/up ... istics.htm

Based on 100+ questions regarding cult characteristics, it was estimated that the average lds member was subject to cult mentality at the rate of 60%, missionaries: 95%.

Then you add on top of that missionaries required to go along with financial corruption like taking food from starving children - and it’s understandable to not feel right about it - even if “everyone’s doing it.”

[cab]

Boy I see some serious baby getting thrown out with the bathwater here...

Yes the vast majority of the members of the church seem to believe that the Holy Ghost speaks to us through reassuring happy emotions, which happen to usually come when what we either want to, hope to, or already believe is affirmed and confirmed... And and yes I believe this is a gross misunderstanding of how the Holy Ghost speaks, and I reject this... Yet as much as I reject this..... What I reject 100 times more is for anyone to go out and teach that we should stop "listening to the spirit so much", or that "seeking to be guided entirely by the spirit is dangerous"....

What we need is sound doctrine. What we need are teachers who teach by the power of the Holy Ghost... What we need is a full scale return to the Lord... What we need is an understanding of the doctrine of Christ and what he is actually offering us... Gosh, some of the comments that have been made here just break my heart as it makes it so evident how famished we are...

What will it take for us, as a church, to obtain the baptism of fire received in Acts 2, Mosiah 2-5, Helaman 5-6, or 3 Nephi 17-20? I greatly fear that the trajectory we are on leave us very little hope as a people...

[johnBob]

“Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually [received] a [revelation]; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually [received]? For I had [received a revelation]; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.”

"Tyler" - you could make just about any statement about anything here, and there will be those who chime in and tell you how wrong you are. I read your reasoning, and I too felt it's a little suspect but so what? You know whether God answered you. Some day, God will either high five you or say, 'Really?" You know which is coming.

That all said, though I applaud you for the bravery of telling your story here, why are you telling it? Are you trying to help others - and if so how? Or, are you looking for validation? Some other third thing?

Imagine if every single active member of our church each took turn witnessing a modern day version of Nephi slaying Laban. Let's say they don't know either man - they just watch a man walk up to a drunken man and gat him in a dark alley. How would they react by and large? Could they know for themselves that the "murderer" was doing the Lord's will? Should they know? Does it matter? See what I mean?

Bingo.

[johnBob]

Boy I see some serious baby getting thrown out with the bathwater here...

Yes the vast majority of the members of the church seem to believe that the Holy Ghost speaks to us through reassuring happy emotions, which happen to usually come when what we want to believe and hope to believe or already are reaffirmed... And and yes I believe this is a gross misunderstanding of how the Holy Ghost speaks, and I reject this... Yet as much as I reject this..... What I reject 100 times more is for anyone to go out and teach that we should stop "listening to the spirit so much", or that "seeking to be guided entirely by the spirit is dangerous"....

What we need is sound doctrine. What we need are teachers who teach by the power of the Holy Ghost... What we need is a full scale return to the Lord... Gosh, some of the comments that have been made here just break my heart as it makes it so evident how famished we are...

What will it take for us, as a church, to obtain the baptism of fire received in Acts 2, Mosiah 2-5, Helaman 5-6, or 3 Nephi 17-20? I greatly fear that the trajectory we are on leave us very little hope as a people...

I actually agree with you very, very much.

I don't think we should stop listening to the spirit so much or stop seeking to be guided entirely by the spirit. I think those should be the goals. I think that for most people to actually do so in this life is extremely difficult. The scriptures mention men who did live their entire lives by the Spirit-Nephi, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. These men were powerful men of God-we should be like them-but just like we all have different capabilities in this life (some smarter, some taller, some stronger), the actual ability for everyone to be an Isaiah, is a pretty tall order. Maybe when Christ reigns it will be like that.

Maybe in the lead-up to it we will have modern day Jeremiah's-that would be awesome. My only point being is that these guys we read about in the Scriptures they were not some Johnny come lately to God, they had been trained. They either saw visions or angels, or whatever. They didn't just say "welp God told me "yes" and that's that"-they KNEW God's word-they could preach it, they could live it.

There better be evidences to back up the claims and those evidences better conform to, uphold and add to the music, the symphony of God's Word. If it is revealing new things that don't line up with or synchronize with God's Word-then look out!

[johnBob]

Yeah that's a great Scripture, I really appreciate it-you back me up. Missionaries go to the MTC, spend 6-12 weeks learning the Word, then every day have at least 2 hours of Scripture study learning God's Word, and most likely a lot more-I probably studied at least 3 hours a day on my mission.

But I'm absolutely positive that tyler here now that God has "released him" from the shackles of being a missionary spends more time than he ever would beforehand actually obtaining God's Word?

Right? Since coming home, he has dedicated his life to being a monk-studying 4+ hours a day to know God's Word. Right?

Please, this guy is just using the 2nd baptism as an excuse...

...Yeap, that's all it takes, nobody knows the Scriptures anymore so they can't see through the utter BS.

JohnBob,
Have you ever read the intro to the Book or Mormon? It states that these writings are by fallible people like you and I...

• “...if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God”

“Word” does not mean scripture - think about it - “Word made flesh.” I’ve come to see words as means of healing - bringing chaos into order.

Don’t have false gods. You’re making scriptures out to be your highest god. Speaking of BS, no wonder Utah led the nation in anti-depressants and mental illness. According to studies in a book by lds authors (Brent & Wendy Topp), it is estimated that up to 80% of mental illness is rooted in dysfunctional interpretations of religious doctrines.

A study sought to discover what, if any, influence religious involvement had on physical health. Of 3 groups, those not religiously involved and those excessively religiously involved did poorest. Those moderately religiously involved did best. Other studies that showed those most involved (pastors, bishops, missionaries etc), had much higher rates of depression & anxiety.

American Family Foundation:

• Characteristics of a cult:
  "The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
  *Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
  *The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth).
  *The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (ie: no financial transparency)."

For several more extensive lists: http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/up ... istics.htm

Based on 100+ questions regarding cult characteristics, it was estimated that the average lds member was subject to cult mentality at the rate of 60%, missionaries: 95%.

Then you add on top of that missionaries required to go along with financial corruption like taking food from starving children - and it’s understandable to not feel right about it - even if “everyone’s doing it.”

The Word or Logos.

No, you don't understand. It is through God's Word whereby we can understand the proper patterns of Life. Too many people in our Church take the Scriptures too lightly and allow any little thought no matter how bizarre strange to be "from God".

Let's say I stand up and declare that God told me I should divorce my wife and marry a 12 year old girl? Why should I not do that? I can proclaim all day long that God has declared it unto me-yet you would dispute my claims. Why?

You would dispute my claims because my claim does not fit the pattern found in the . . .wait for it . .. .Scriptures.

Unless you proclaim to have seen God and Christ (which I have not), I will gladly take God's Word by men who HAVE proclaimed to see God over my own stupid thoughts, feelings any day of the week. Now if at some point, God grants me the gift of seeing Him, then I might become Scripture-but that hasn't happened yet.

So unless and until a person can stand up and proclaim they have seen God and this is what he says . . .whatever screwy thoughts they have can go sit at the back of the bus-while I study what is actually from God.

[Rick Grimes]

Please make no mistake, I am in the camp that thinks this was a mistake. It is pretty manifestly clear that "Tyler" came here trying to get confirmation from others that he made the right decision. However, he is going to learn, or at least needs to, that some decisions we make we just have to live with. We shouldn't put them out there to recieve a ticker-tape parade celebrating it, especially when it's such a grey area such as this. I agree that 99.9 percent of the time, the Lord will not reveal something that is so contrary to the established word of God. Worthy, able bodied men are commanded to serve a full time mission. His choice for leaving the mission is one he will have to live with. If the Lord did tell him to do this, then hooray for him for having obeyed. My own thoughts, even though he speaks truth in some of these mormondoms being taught, his own murmurings, looking down at imperfect missionaries and members, thinking he knows better than his leadership in almost everything, I'd say this young man is in need of some humility. If any of us didnt realize that our church is full of imperfect people and that includes leaders, well that is big disappointment for you. None of us are perfect, but we should be patient, forgiving, and humble to know that we aren't perfect either. I am not certain that the right spirit told him to leave because of these "false doctrines", but I'm betting it wasnt.

That being said, I wish Tyler well and hope he continues to gain a true testimony of this gospel. I gained the most for myself in my testimony when I was on my mission, and cherish it to this day. I hope he can gain what he was looking for, now that he is at home, just like he felt was right.

[cab]

Boy I see some serious baby getting thrown out with the bathwater here...

Yes the vast majority of the members of the church seem to believe that the Holy Ghost speaks to us through reassuring happy emotions, which happen to usually come when what we want to believe and hope to believe or already are reaffirmed... And and yes I believe this is a gross misunderstanding of how the Holy Ghost speaks, and I reject this... Yet as much as I reject this..... What I reject 100 times more is for anyone to go out and teach that we should stop "listening to the spirit so much", or that "seeking to be guided entirely by the spirit is dangerous"....

What we need is sound doctrine. What we need are teachers who teach by the power of the Holy Ghost... What we need is a full scale return to the Lord... Gosh, some of the comments that have been made here just break my heart as it makes it so evident how famished we are...

What will it take for us, as a church, to obtain the baptism of fire received in Acts 2, Mosiah 2-5, Helaman 5-6, or 3 Nephi 17-20? I greatly fear that the trajectory we are on leave us very little hope as a people...

I actually agree with you very, very much.

I don't think we should stop listening to the spirit so much or stop seeking to be guided entirely by the spirit. I think those should be the goals. I think that for most people to actually do so in this life is extremely difficult. The scriptures mention men who did live their entire lives by the Spirit-Nephi, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. These men were powerful men of God-we should be like them-but just like we all have different capabilities in this life (some smarter, some taller, some stronger), the actual ability for everyone to be an Isaiah, is a pretty tall order. Maybe when Christ reigns it will be like that.

Maybe in the lead-up to it we will have modern day Jeremiah's-that would be awesome. My only point being is that these guys we read about in the Scriptures they were not some Johnny come lately to God, they had been trained. They either saw visions or angels, or whatever. They didn't just say "welp God told me "yes" and that's that"-they KNEW God's word-they could preach it, they could live it.

There better be evidences to back up the claims and those evidences better conform to, uphold and add to the music, the symphony of God's Word. If it is revealing new things that don't line up with or synchronize with God's Word-then look out!

I'll tell you, what has disillusioned me greatly is that I see no one in positions of "authority" even claim to have received visions or to have been visited by angels. In fact, in moments of candor some have even admitted to have not had these experiences... Yet we are expected to follow their counsel as if they have had these experiences - to the point that our temple worthiness is dependant on it... If they have had these experiences, for some reason they seem to choose to categorize them as too sacred too share, which I don't understand coming from those on the "watchtower"...

Conversely, the only people I know who have had the audacity to claim great charismatic experiences, visions, and visitations from God and angels (and then acted on them) soon seem to find their membership in the church to be in great jeopardy...

I have a hard time reconciling this...

[johnBob]

Please make no mistake, I am in the camp that thinks this was a mistake. It is pretty manifestly clear that "Tyler" came here trying to get confirmation from others that he made the right decision. However, he is going to learn, or at least needs to, that some decisions we make we just have to live with. We shouldn't put them out there to recieve a ticker-tape parade celebrating it, especially when it's such a grey area such as this. I agree that 99.9 percent of the time, the Lord will not reveal something that is so contrary to the established word of God. Worthy, able bodied men are commanded to serve a full time mission. His choice for leaving the mission is one he will have to live with. If the Lord did tell him to do this, then hooray for him for having obeyed. My own thoughts, even though he speaks truth in some of these mormondoms being taught, his own murmurings, looking down at imperfect missionaries and members, thinking he knows better than his leadership in almost everything, I'd say this young man is in need of some humility. If any of us didnt realize that our church is full of imperfect people and that includes leaders, well that is big disappointment for you. None of us are perfect, but we should be patient, forgiving, and humble to know that we aren't perfect either. I am not certain that the right spirit told him to leave because of these "false doctrines", but I'm betting it wasnt.

That being said, I wish Tyler well and hope he continues to gain a true testimony of this gospel. I gained the most for myself in my testimony when I was on my mission, and cherish it to this day. I hope he can gain what he was looking for, now that he is at home, just like he felt was right.

Good stuff A+++

[Zathura]

“Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually [received] a [revelation]; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually [received]? For I had [received a revelation]; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.”

"Tyler" - you could make just about any statement about anything here, and there will be those who chime in and tell you how wrong you are. I read your reasoning, and I too felt it's a little suspect but so what? You know whether God answered you. Some day, God will either high five you or say, 'Really?" You know which is coming.

That all said, though I applaud you for the bravery of telling your story here, why are you telling it? Are you trying to help others - and if so how? Or, are you looking for validation? Some other third thing?

Imagine if every single active member of our church each took turn witnessing a modern day version of Nephi slaying Laban. Let's say they don't know either man - they just watch a man walk up to a drunken man and gat him in a dark alley. How would they react by and large? Could they know for themselves that the "murderer" was doing the Lord's will? Should they know? Does it matter? See what I mean?

I'll tell ya this much.

Had Tyler said " I Love Russell M Nelson So so much I love the apostles so much they do so much for me I sustain them with all my heart and pray for them" and followed that with "I felt that I should return home from my mission because the Spirit said so"

All these people saying he's looking for validation or an excuse to leave would be all "oh good job buddy, way to go, way to follow the Spirit you're so courageous".

$2. Next time this happens Alaris, take the bet??

[Thinker]

Just to clarify, again: it’s not all or nothing.
Missions bring about both good and bad. The reason I focused on the bad (cult mentality etc) is because it is usually ignored, yet hurts people. Still, missionaries have no doubt inspired many people to live better than they would have. And, 2 missionaries pretty much helped save my life - & they have no idea, even to this day.

[johnBob]

Boy I see some serious baby getting thrown out with the bathwater here...

Yes the vast majority of the members of the church seem to believe that the Holy Ghost speaks to us through reassuring happy emotions, which happen to usually come when what we want to believe and hope to believe or already are reaffirmed... And and yes I believe this is a gross misunderstanding of how the Holy Ghost speaks, and I reject this... Yet as much as I reject this..... What I reject 100 times more is for anyone to go out and teach that we should stop "listening to the spirit so much", or that "seeking to be guided entirely by the spirit is dangerous"....

What we need is sound doctrine. What we need are teachers who teach by the power of the Holy Ghost... What we need is a full scale return to the Lord... Gosh, some of the comments that have been made here just break my heart as it makes it so evident how famished we are...

What will it take for us, as a church, to obtain the baptism of fire received in Acts 2, Mosiah 2-5, Helaman 5-6, or 3 Nephi 17-20? I greatly fear that the trajectory we are on leave us very little hope as a people...

I actually agree with you very, very much.

I don't think we should stop listening to the spirit so much or stop seeking to be guided entirely by the spirit. I think those should be the goals. I think that for most people to actually do so in this life is extremely difficult. The scriptures mention men who did live their entire lives by the Spirit-Nephi, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. These men were powerful men of God-we should be like them-but just like we all have different capabilities in this life (some smarter, some taller, some stronger), the actual ability for everyone to be an Isaiah, is a pretty tall order. Maybe when Christ reigns it will be like that.

Maybe in the lead-up to it we will have modern day Jeremiah's-that would be awesome. My only point being is that these guys we read about in the Scriptures they were not some Johnny come lately to God, they had been trained. They either saw visions or angels, or whatever. They didn't just say "welp God told me "yes" and that's that"-they KNEW God's word-they could preach it, they could live it.

There better be evidences to back up the claims and those evidences better conform to, uphold and add to the music, the symphony of God's Word. If it is revealing new things that don't line up with or synchronize with God's Word-then look out!

I'll tell you, what has disillusioned me greatly is that I see no one in positions of "authority" even claim to have received visions or been visited by angels, in fact, in moments of candor some have admitted to have not had these experiences... Yet we are supposed to follow their counsel as if they have had these experiences... If they have had these experiences, for some reason, they choose to categorize them as too sacred too share, which I don't understand coming from those on the "watchtower"...

Conversely, the only people I know who have had the audacity to claim great charismatic experiences, visions, and visitations from God and angels (and then acted on them) soon seem to find their membership in the church to be in great jeopardy...

I have a hard time reconciling this...

You and me both . . . .
I'm a member because of Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, DC, PoGP. I'm a member of this branch because no other branch believes in those works of Joseph Smith.

Whether or not we are what we are supposed to be . . . . .that's another question entirely. I wonder sometimes if it's the blind leading the blind.

Yes I sustain the leadership simply because they are the leaders, someone is going to be the President of the Church-it's the way the system is set up. Do I believe everything they say comes directly from God? Nope, some of it yes, some of it no, and some of it a lot of in-between. And the further we get from Joseph Smith, the more things they say which clearly do not line up with Scripture without a corresponding Vision/Revelation from God-so something is seriously wrong.

Can't wait until we really go down the "woke" rabbit-hole-gonna be fun!

[Alaris]

“Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually [received] a [revelation]; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually [received]? For I had [received a revelation]; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.”

"Tyler" - you could make just about any statement about anything here, and there will be those who chime in and tell you how wrong you are. I read your reasoning, and I too felt it's a little suspect but so what? You know whether God answered you. Some day, God will either high five you or say, 'Really?" You know which is coming.

That all said, though I applaud you for the bravery of telling your story here, why are you telling it? Are you trying to help others - and if so how? Or, are you looking for validation? Some other third thing?

Imagine if every single active member of our church each took turn witnessing a modern day version of Nephi slaying Laban. Let's say they don't know either man - they just watch a man walk up to a drunken man and gat him in a dark alley. How would they react by and large? Could they know for themselves that the "murderer" was doing the Lord's will? Should they know? Does it matter? See what I mean?

I'll tell ya this much.

Had Tyler said " I Love Russell M Nelson So so much I love the apostles so much they do so much for them I sustain them with all my heart and pray for them" and followed that with "I felt that I should return home from my mission because the Spirit said so"

All these people saying he's looking for validation or an excuse to leave would be all "oh good job buddy, way to go, way to follow the Spirit you're so courageous".

$2. Next time this happens Alaris, take the bet??

I'm sorry what are betting? If I came off as dismissive or rude to Tyler, that was not my intent. I was trying to convey to him that he knows whether or not the Lord told him to go home. Whether the Lord did or not, I'm sure it's still greatly unsettling, but not as unsettling as witnessing a murder - which I will admit probably wasn't a clear point. In that point, I was trying to convey that it would look very bad and there would probably be very, very few, if any, latter-day Saints who would stop to pray and get a confirmation if that murder was from an advanced soul like Nephi on the Lord's errand - meaning even if something looks bad, it may not be. If the Lord told you to do it - then take comfort in that. (I was also trying to help Tyler by asking him what he's trying to accomplish here)

Despite my good intentions I should probably stop posting at this point as it's been a stressful day and I'm tired - good night my friends

[Zathura]

“Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually [received] a [revelation]; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually [received]? For I had [received a revelation]; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.”

"Tyler" - you could make just about any statement about anything here, and there will be those who chime in and tell you how wrong you are. I read your reasoning, and I too felt it's a little suspect but so what? You know whether God answered you. Some day, God will either high five you or say, 'Really?" You know which is coming.

That all said, though I applaud you for the bravery of telling your story here, why are you telling it? Are you trying to help others - and if so how? Or, are you looking for validation? Some other third thing?

Imagine if every single active member of our church each took turn witnessing a modern day version of Nephi slaying Laban. Let's say they don't know either man - they just watch a man walk up to a drunken man and gat him in a dark alley. How would they react by and large? Could they know for themselves that the "murderer" was doing the Lord's will? Should they know? Does it matter? See what I mean?

I'll tell ya this much.

Had Tyler said " I Love Russell M Nelson So so much I love the apostles so much they do so much for them I sustain them with all my heart and pray for them" and followed that with "I felt that I should return home from my mission because the Spirit said so"

All these people saying he's looking for validation or an excuse to leave would be all "oh good job buddy, way to go, way to follow the Spirit you're so courageous".

$2. Next time this happens Alaris, take the bet??

I'm sorry what are betting? If I came off as dismissive or rude to Tyler, that was not my intent. I was trying to convey to him that he knows whether or not the Lord told him to go home. Whether the Lord did or not, I'm sure it's still greatly unsettling, but not as unsettling as witnessing a murder - which I will admit probably wasn't a clear point. In that point, I was trying to convey that it would look very bad and there would probably be very, very few, if any, latter-day Saints who would stop to pray and get a confirmation if that murder was from an advanced soul like Nephi on the Lord's errand - meaning even if something looks bad, it may not be. If the Lord told you to do it - then take comfort in that. (I was also trying to help Tyler by asking him what he's trying to accomplish here)

Despite my good intentions I should probably stop posting at this point as it's been a stressful day and I'm tired - good night my friends

I know you have good intentions brother

[AZRob]

Don’t have false gods. You’re making scriptures out to be your highest god....

Thinker, you've made this comment before. I believe it to be wrong. Nobody really prays to their quad or their Gospel Library app or whatever. Scriptures are merely a medium through which God's word is relayed to us. Yes, there are other media, such as God's spirit and the prophets, but we have carefully "curated" messages carried through millenia, while most prophets come and go. If God is our highest god, and if we believe the scriptures contain God's word, then we are worshiping God by heeding His word through the scriptures.

Now in the case of Tyler, I can't really judge him but in general terms I'll say that for those for whom personal revelation is in short supply it's a good practice to liken the scriptures unto yourself and take note of the lessons contained therein. I'm sure in many cases particular passages of scripture will jump out at you like they do to me, and I'm happy to take that as God's word. If having that opinion means that I'm making the scriptures my god, I stand proudly guilty.

[Alaris]

"Tyler" - you could make just about any statement about anything here, and there will be those who chime in and tell you how wrong you are. I read your reasoning, and I too felt it's a little suspect but so what? You know whether God answered you. Some day, God will either high five you or say, 'Really?" You know which is coming.

That all said, though I applaud you for the bravery of telling your story here, why are you telling it? Are you trying to help others - and if so how? Or, are you looking for validation? Some other third thing?

Imagine if every single active member of our church each took turn witnessing a modern day version of Nephi slaying Laban. Let's say they don't know either man - they just watch a man walk up to a drunken man and gat him in a dark alley. How would they react by and large? Could they know for themselves that the "murderer" was doing the Lord's will? Should they know? Does it matter? See what I mean?

I'll tell ya this much.

Had Tyler said " I Love Russell M Nelson So so much I love the apostles so much they do so much for them I sustain them with all my heart and pray for them" and followed that with "I felt that I should return home from my mission because the Spirit said so"

All these people saying he's looking for validation or an excuse to leave would be all "oh good job buddy, way to go, way to follow the Spirit you're so courageous".

$2. Next time this happens Alaris, take the bet??

I'm sorry what are betting? If I came off as dismissive or rude to Tyler, that was not my intent. I was trying to convey to him that he knows whether or not the Lord told him to go home. Whether the Lord did or not, I'm sure it's still greatly unsettling, but not as unsettling as witnessing a murder - which I will admit probably wasn't a clear point. In that point, I was trying to convey that it would look very bad and there would probably be very, very few, if any, latter-day Saints who would stop to pray and get a confirmation if that murder was from an advanced soul like Nephi on the Lord's errand - meaning even if something looks bad, it may not be. If the Lord told you to do it - then take comfort in that. (I was also trying to help Tyler by asking him what he's trying to accomplish here)

Despite my good intentions I should probably stop posting at this point as it's been a stressful day and I'm tired - good night my friends

I know you have good intentions brother

I'm also sort of talking to myself with this one. Appreciated - good night

[Bronco73idi]

“Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually [received] a [revelation]; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually [received]? For I had [received a revelation]; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.”

"Tyler" - you could make just about any statement about anything here, and there will be those who chime in and tell you how wrong you are. I read your reasoning, and I too felt it's a little suspect but so what? You know whether God answered you. Some day, God will either high five you or say, 'Really?" You know which is coming.

That all said, though I applaud you for the bravery of telling your story here, why are you telling it? Are you trying to help others - and if so how? Or, are you looking for validation? Some other third thing?

Imagine if every single active member of our church each took turn witnessing a modern day version of Nephi slaying Laban. Let's say they don't know either man - they just watch a man walk up to a drunken man and gat him in a dark alley. How would they react by and large? Could they know for themselves that the "murderer" was doing the Lord's will? Should they know? Does it matter? See what I mean?

I'll tell ya this much.

Had Tyler said " I Love Russell M Nelson So so much I love the apostles so much they do so much for me I sustain them with all my heart and pray for them" and followed that with "I felt that I should return home from my mission because the Spirit said so"

All these people saying he's looking for validation or an excuse to leave would be all "oh good job buddy, way to go, way to follow the Spirit you're so courageous".

$2. Next time this happens Alaris, take the bet??

I would call him for the quitter he is........

Do you think he is woke enough to understand that movies like office space and fight club came out to condition us for 9/11?

[Zathura]

“Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually [received] a [revelation]; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually [received]? For I had [received a revelation]; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.”

"Tyler" - you could make just about any statement about anything here, and there will be those who chime in and tell you how wrong you are. I read your reasoning, and I too felt it's a little suspect but so what? You know whether God answered you. Some day, God will either high five you or say, 'Really?" You know which is coming.

That all said, though I applaud you for the bravery of telling your story here, why are you telling it? Are you trying to help others - and if so how? Or, are you looking for validation? Some other third thing?

Imagine if every single active member of our church each took turn witnessing a modern day version of Nephi slaying Laban. Let's say they don't know either man - they just watch a man walk up to a drunken man and gat him in a dark alley. How would they react by and large? Could they know for themselves that the "murderer" was doing the Lord's will? Should they know? Does it matter? See what I mean?

I'll tell ya this much.

Had Tyler said " I Love Russell M Nelson So so much I love the apostles so much they do so much for me I sustain them with all my heart and pray for them" and followed that with "I felt that I should return home from my mission because the Spirit said so"

All these people saying he's looking for validation or an excuse to leave would be all "oh good job buddy, way to go, way to follow the Spirit you're so courageous".

$2. Next time this happens Alaris, take the bet??

I would call him for the quitter he is........

Do you think he is woke enough to understand that movies like office space and fight club came out to condition us for 9/11?

I just don’t care to talk about him, I’ll answer any questions you have about his message though.

[Bronco73idi]

"Tyler" - you could make just about any statement about anything here, and there will be those who chime in and tell you how wrong you are. I read your reasoning, and I too felt it's a little suspect but so what? You know whether God answered you. Some day, God will either high five you or say, 'Really?" You know which is coming.

That all said, though I applaud you for the bravery of telling your story here, why are you telling it? Are you trying to help others - and if so how? Or, are you looking for validation? Some other third thing?

Imagine if every single active member of our church each took turn witnessing a modern day version of Nephi slaying Laban. Let's say they don't know either man - they just watch a man walk up to a drunken man and gat him in a dark alley. How would they react by and large? Could they know for themselves that the "murderer" was doing the Lord's will? Should they know? Does it matter? See what I mean?

I'll tell ya this much.

Had Tyler said " I Love Russell M Nelson So so much I love the apostles so much they do so much for me I sustain them with all my heart and pray for them" and followed that with "I felt that I should return home from my mission because the Spirit said so"

All these people saying he's looking for validation or an excuse to leave would be all "oh good job buddy, way to go, way to follow the Spirit you're so courageous".

$2. Next time this happens Alaris, take the bet??

I would call him for the quitter he is........

Do you think he is woke enough to understand that movies like office space and fight club came out to condition us for 9/11?

I just don’t care to talk about him, I’ll answer any questions you have about his message though.

Elder S. Dilworth Young said:
“You must work through the Spirit. If that leads you into conflict with the program of the Church, you follow the voice of the Spirit.”

I was on a mission about 5 months ago, and was out about a year. The Lord impressed upon my mind that it was time for me to come home. When does the lord tell people to quit? abusive relationship is justified to divorce (quit), but the lord said "but from the beginning it was not so." the lord let his people live as slaves or burdened with roman rule, a 2 year mission is nothing. The story is a bit complicated, but I was struggling with the mission culture and false teachings we were spreading as missionaries. So instead of calling out the heathen doctrine he cowards down? I was sick of the neglect of the simple doctrine of Christ, and all of the hypocrisy I saw in the church. We are all fallen men, hypocrisy surrounds us, grow up!!!! We were teaching salvation in everything but Christ. I wanted to teach by the spirit and proclaim the gospel. I also fervently dissected the doctrine of Christ in the Book of Mormon. I noticed I had not been born again and received the gift of the Holy Ghost. I was taught by the Lord that most missionaries haven’t either. I wondered about how the lord invited the early church apostles to seek for their “endowment from on High”, the gift of the Holy Ghost, so that they could teach with power. It thought often, Who am I to teach and invite others to receive this gift when I haven’t obtained it myself? There were many other things I was struggling to figure out on my mission. Feel free to ask any questions about it.


After I received the revelation from the Lord to go home early, I prayed for a whole week wrestling with this idea. The lord told me it was for a wise purpose and that I must come home to seek my baptism of fire. I knew in my heart it was right but was troubled of how others would react.

I told my mission President, and it led to me having a discussion with my stake president over phone. My stake president argued that the prophets “say every able bodied young man should serve a FULL time mission”, and he didn’t understand why I would need to go home and that I would not be fulfilling my duty if I didn’t serve full time (but allowed me the choice nonetheless). I ended up coming home early.

I know what the lord told me was true. During the Lord's ministry he never taught us to quit, Matthew 11:28 Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

The math doesn't add up, if he truly understood what he was saying he would be an Ex Mormon.....