Jesus was considered apostate from the jewish church

[Alexander]

It has never before occured to me entirely, until now, that Jesus was apostate. This was the entire reason for His death (other than that he must complete the atonement, but it was a fulfillment of prophesy), as Jesus called out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and Sadduceees and taught things against the teachings of the church.


Edit: This isn't justification to go against the commandments of God

[Durzan]

So, what's new then? Martin Luther was considered an apostate as well.

This thought occurred to me ages ago.

[Believing Joseph]

I never really thought about it that way until about a year or two ago, though it is of course true.

It makes you understand why so many people, even after they had seen Jesus' miracles, were afraid to follow him. They would be apostates too.

To be "cast out if the synogogue" (a more literal translation from the Greek would be "excommunicated") meant losing your entire social circle and status in the community. Their religion was even more tight-knit amd essential to their identity than for Mormons today, so no wonder they would do almost anything to stay in.

[Alexander]

So, what's new then? Martin Luther was considered an apostate as well.

This thought occurred to me ages ago.

Not sure. I guess It was just a reminder for me that Christ knows how I feel when things I believe aren't really agreed on by the church, or how it is to be labeled as apostate. I had a rough time on my mission, but the hardest was with one of my companions. He called me out and said I was going astray, pointing out every detail of how I was wrong, and that I was apostate. in that moment I felt so hopeless and useless and dumb. It was so difficult because the Lord had been teaching me many things, at it was rough to be treated like I was of the devil or something because what the lord told me was not in agreement with the "bretheren". It kinda amazed me how much persecution the Lord suffered through. I'm thankful for Christ and his example, and his saving power. Whatever he leads me to understand, I will believe.

But Kudos to you for figuring this out a long time ago.

[Original_Intent]

So, what's new then? Martin Luther was considered an apostate as well.

This thought occurred to me ages ago.

Yeah, this attitude is why I think libertarianism and constitutionalism has a hard time growing.

We don't play well with others, when someone else finally gets it, we are sure to establish our place in the pecking order because what they only just now see, we knew "ages ago".

Kudos to TylerDurden for the civil response.

And Durzan, I'm not trying to call you out or put you down. But I am calling out and putting down a behavior that we have got to outgrow if Zion is ever going to be a thing.

[mahalanobis]

Isn't the church's definition of apostasy "turning away from and rebelling against God" or something like that?

I'm sure the definition can be debated. But if this definition is true, a more accurate statement is that Jesus was considered to be apostate by those in power at that time.

Even if you reject this definition and cite Webster's to say that apostasy means to commit heresy against a specific church, then you can just cite Nephi's "there are save two churches only". From this perspective, Jesus was apostate from Satan's church.

Like many things, it's a matter of definition. In my opinion, the blanket statement "Jesus was apostate" (without any clarification on definitions) is a subtle way of justifying/encouraging the act of turning away from the church. I prefer that people just come right out and say it rather than trying to gradually lull opinions away into rebellion. (And for the record, I've been plenty critical of some church actions.)

[Durzan]

So, what's new then? Martin Luther was considered an apostate as well.

This thought occurred to me ages ago.

Not sure. I guess It was just a reminder for me that Christ knows how I feel when things I believe aren't really agreed on by the church, or how it is to be labeled as apostate. I had a rough time on my mission, but the hardest was with one of my companions. He called me out and said I was going astray, pointing out every detail of how I was wrong, and that I was apostate. in that moment I felt so hopeless and useless and dumb. It was so difficult because the Lord had been teaching me many things, at it was rough to be treated like I was of the devil or something because what the lord told me was not in agreement with the "bretheren". It kinda amazed me how much persecution the Lord suffered through. I'm thankful for Christ and his example, and his saving power. Whatever he leads me to understand, I will believe.

But Kudos to you for figuring this out a long time ago.

Thanks for the insights. Realizations like this don't really change anything about the gospel, but they do provide an opportunity to examine it from a new angle or perspective... and that causes us to grow. Hence why these realizations and experiences are valuable.

[ChooseTruth]

Isn't the church's definition of apostasy "turning away from and rebelling against God" or something like that?

I'm sure the definition can be debated. But if this definition is true, a more accurate statement is that Jesus was considered to be apostate by those in power at that time.

Even if you reject this definition and cite Webster's to say that apostasy means to commit heresy against a specific church, then you can just cite Nephi's "there are save two churches only". From this perspective, Jesus was apostate from Satan's church.

Like many things, it's a matter of definition. In my opinion, the blanket statement "Jesus was apostate" (without any clarification on definitions) is a subtle way of justifying/encouraging the act of turning away from the church. I prefer that people just come right out and say it rather than trying to gradually lull opinions away into rebellion. (And for the record, I've been plenty critical of some church actions.)

Church’s definition of apostasy

“repeatedly act in clear, open and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders; or persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after being corrected by their bishops or higher authority; or continue to follow the teachings of apostate cults (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishops or higher authority”

It really looks like it all about obedience to authority

[mahalanobis]

Isn't the church's definition of apostasy "turning away from and rebelling against God" or something like that?

I'm sure the definition can be debated. But if this definition is true, a more accurate statement is that Jesus was considered to be apostate by those in power at that time.

Even if you reject this definition and cite Webster's to say that apostasy means to commit heresy against a specific church, then you can just cite Nephi's "there are save two churches only". From this perspective, Jesus was apostate from Satan's church.

Like many things, it's a matter of definition. In my opinion, the blanket statement "Jesus was apostate" (without any clarification on definitions) is a subtle way of justifying/encouraging the act of turning away from the church. I prefer that people just come right out and say it rather than trying to gradually lull opinions away into rebellion. (And for the record, I've been plenty critical of some church actions.)

Church’s definition of apostasy

“repeatedly act in clear, open and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders; or persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after being corrected by their bishops or higher authority; or continue to follow the teachings of apostate cults (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishops or higher authority”

It really looks like it all about obedience to authority

I thought they changed it in a public statement or something. Related to the previous statements about gay parents being in apostasy.

If not, then I can stand corrected. I wonder where I remember that from then...

[Alexander]

Isn't the church's definition of apostasy "turning away from and rebelling against God" or something like that?

I'm sure the definition can be debated. But if this definition is true, a more accurate statement is that Jesus was considered to be apostate by those in power at that time.

Even if you reject this definition and cite Webster's to say that apostasy means to commit heresy against a specific church, then you can just cite Nephi's "there are save two churches only". From this perspective, Jesus was apostate from Satan's church.

Like many things, it's a matter of definition. In my opinion, the blanket statement "Jesus was apostate" (without any clarification on definitions) is a subtle way of justifying/encouraging the act of turning away from the church. I prefer that people just come right out and say it rather than trying to gradually lull opinions away into rebellion. (And for the record, I've been plenty critical of some church actions.)

Church’s definition of apostasy

“repeatedly act in clear, open and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders; or persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after being corrected by their bishops or higher authority; or continue to follow the teachings of apostate cults (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishops or higher authority”

It really looks like it all about obedience to authority

I thought they changed it in a public statement or something. Related to the previous statements about gay parents being in apostasy.

If not, then I can stand corrected. I wonder where I remember that from then...

The change in definition of apostasy was only that they included members who "are in a same-gender marriage" as being apostate (because of their actions and beliefs being against the views of the church)
https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church- ... d-apostasy

[ChooseTruth]

Isn't the church's definition of apostasy "turning away from and rebelling against God" or something like that?

I'm sure the definition can be debated. But if this definition is true, a more accurate statement is that Jesus was considered to be apostate by those in power at that time.

Even if you reject this definition and cite Webster's to say that apostasy means to commit heresy against a specific church, then you can just cite Nephi's "there are save two churches only". From this perspective, Jesus was apostate from Satan's church.

Like many things, it's a matter of definition. In my opinion, the blanket statement "Jesus was apostate" (without any clarification on definitions) is a subtle way of justifying/encouraging the act of turning away from the church. I prefer that people just come right out and say it rather than trying to gradually lull opinions away into rebellion. (And for the record, I've been plenty critical of some church actions.)

Church’s definition of apostasy

“repeatedly act in clear, open and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders; or persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after being corrected by their bishops or higher authority; or continue to follow the teachings of apostate cults (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishops or higher authority”

It really looks like it all about obedience to authority

I thought they changed it in a public statement or something. Related to the previous statements about gay parents being in apostasy.

If not, then I can stand corrected. I wonder where I remember that from then...

I think the way gay marriage was considered to be apostasy was that it was clear and open opposition to the church. I’m just got my by memory. So, I could be wrong on that.

[mahalanobis]

"Apostasy is a conscious act of rebellion against God by deliberately attempting to change divinely appointed doctrine and practice and by opposing God’s chosen leaders."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=eng

[mahalanobis]

"Apostasy is a conscious act of rebellion against God by deliberately attempting to change divinely appointed doctrine and practice and by opposing God’s chosen leaders."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=eng

So it's true that the Jewish leaders (seeing themselves as God's chosen leaders), would have viewed Jesus as apostate.

I don't think this is a big revelation nor is a controversial claim.

[Alexander]

"Apostasy is a conscious act of rebellion against God by deliberately attempting to change divinely appointed doctrine and practice and by opposing God’s chosen leaders."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=eng

So it's true that the Jewish leaders (seeing themselves as God's chosen leaders), would have viewed Jesus as apostate.

I don't think this is a big revelation nor is a controversial claim.

Right. You can see what I meant in my title. If anything, this post was just a thought in my head. No big revelation really. I just thought it was interesting.

[JohnnyL]

Satan was excommunicated, too.

[Thinker]

Church’s definition of apostasy

“repeatedly act in clear, open and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders...

...after being corrected by their bishops or higher authority”

It really looks like it all about obedience to authority.

Yes, obedience to authority and NOT exercising your free speech or freedom of religion.

Earlier in the church, members were encouraged to question things more - to explore and discover truths even if the truth was contrary to the church leaders’ teachings.

• “Searching for truth is an obligation.” - RL Evans

• “If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” - J Reuben Clark

• “I do not know a worse kind of slavery than to be afraid to think for yourself and speak what you believe.” - George Teasdale

• “Any open-minded search for truth requires courage, constancy & humility.” - HB Brown

• “If we value house, if we value lands, if we value good name, if we value even life itself more than we do the truth, we are unworthy of the truth.” - GQ Canon

• “No man can hope to find out the truth without investigation.” - George F Richards

[Thinker]

Jesus was considered to be apostate by those in power at that time.

Exactly!
It seems the lesson TylerDurden is pointing out, at least in part, is that what others consider you is not as important as what God knows of you.

[Alexander]

Jesus was considered to be apostate by those in power at that time.

Exactly!
It seems the lesson TylerDurden is pointing out, at least in part, is that what others consider you is not as important as what God knows of you.

Yes, I probably didn’t fully explain my thoughts, so forgive me. What you said is perfect. God looks upon our hearts, and I really came to that realization as I pondered on Jesus and his life and his example.

[Thinker]

Jesus was considered to be apostate by those in power at that time.

Exactly!
It seems the lesson TylerDurden is pointing out, at least in part, is that what others consider you is not as important as what God knows of you.

Yes, I probably didn’t fully explain my thoughts, so forgive me. What you said is perfect. God looks upon our hearts, and I really came to that realization as I pondered on Jesus and his life and his example.

You brought up a great point! Thank you!

Christ is an inspiring example. During hard times in my life, I’ve thought about what Christ went through. To his dying day, he was betrayed by those he loved and who loved him. He was hurt emotionally, physically and spiritually.

In the following clip, (about 8:00) Jordan Peterson talks about Christ as as a archetype or symbol for the pain and sense of unfairness we experience. (FYI: A bit of cussing)

[righteousrepublic]

Does this sound like the words and works of an apostate? Jesus never adopted the teachings, so how can he become an apostate? Just another pot stirring thread, huh?

Luke 2
40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day’s journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?
50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

John 4:34
34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

John 6:38–39
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Does this sound like the words and works of an apostate? Jesus never adopted the teachings, so how can he become an apostate? Just another pot stirring thread, huh?

Luke 2
40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day’s journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?
50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

John 4:34
34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

John 6:38–39
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

In kindness, the OP states that Jesus Christ was considered an apostate by His own people because He failed to follow the Jewish traditions & the leaders of the church of His time. The OP doesn't say Christ was an "apostate", rather the Jews (the Lord's covenant people) perceived Christ to be an apostate (as it was was with most of the prophets of old) and therefore they imprisoned, tortured, and crucified Christ accordingly. This is an indisputable fact. Christ and John the Baptist were in fact heretics, not apostates.

Who was responsible for the death of Christ and Why? Because Our Lord was perceived as an evil apostate. He condemned their beloved righteous leaders and false traditions. Of course, Christ wasn't an apostate.

Who killed the prophet Isaiah? It is interesting to note that the very people who killed Isaiah decided to include his very words in scripture. Why? For the very same exact reason Nephi quoted Isaiah extensively. Go figure. Both saw our day, or at least the days proceeding the 2nd coming. The people realized Isaiah was spot on prophetically and that he accurately predicted the downfall of the Lord's covenant people and he was killed for it When the jews realized how profound and accurate Isaiah's apostate writings were (his words were fulfilled. . . PAST, PRESENT, & to be FUTURE)) they knew his words were imperative to be included in scripture because they recognized the repeated patterns throughout history. They didn't want us to make the same mistakes. But [false] traditions don't even allow us to consider the implications of Isaiah's words. False beliefs exempt us from Isaiah's condemnation. Therefore there is never room for any progression.

"As Isaiah informs us, God, "foretells the end from the beginning, from ancient times things yet not done." (Isa. 46:10) That may seem an obvious statement, coming from a prophet. But we already know it doesn't just mean that God predicts the future in plain terms. God's revelation is multi-dimensional. He also foretells the end by orchestrating history itself, so that what happened in the beginning will happen again at the end. The "end" - that is, the end of the world-is thus foretold "from the beginning" in Israel's own history." -Avraham Gileadi

If we seriously consider current LDS traditions we can literally throw most of Isaiah's writings down the disposal, they are worthless in our day regardless of what Our Lord says regarding Isaiah's writings. Isaiah flat out condemns Israel proceeding His second coming (WO UNTO ISRAEL! pretty clear), he condemns the Lord's covenant people, he doesn't glorify us like you and current church traditional teachings. Isaiah condemns the Lord's covenant people of his time and therefore future saints. Mind-blowing to think the all evil Muslims have as good of an understanding of Isaiah's writings as the LDS church. Muslims traditionally and rightfully maintain that the unrighteousness of Israel (the Lord's covenant people) led to their anger and provoked their anger to kill Isaiah. (Thankfully we are more righteous and have been promised that our prophets can never lead us astray.) Regardless of what has happened in the past (Isaiah writings tell all), they have no application to our day. But who here actually believes that Christ lied to the Nephites and Nephi had no clue why he was including Isaiah's writings (have nothing to do with us). I completely refuse to believe such nonsense. Nephi and Isaiah's writings have everything to do with our day.

A good majority of prophets in scripture were in fact heretics, they were not apostates. The Lord's people perceived many prophets of old to be in fact apostates and thus they were persecuted and many killed.

Doctrine and Covenants 52:14 And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations—

It sucks, but current church traditions make us blind to the patterns laid out in scripture. ALL ancient records make it clear that the concept of recurrent dispensations of light and darkness, restoration and apostasy, prosperous and annihilation, is valid for every age in recorded history. Nowhere is this pattern set forth more clearly than in the epic sweep of the Pearl of Great Price. But if current traditions hold, we can also throw out the POGP. Got to love false traditions.

[The Airbender]

So, what's new then? Martin Luther was considered an apostate as well.

This thought occurred to me ages ago.

Not sure. I guess It was just a reminder for me that Christ knows how I feel when things I believe aren't really agreed on by the church, or how it is to be labeled as apostate. I had a rough time on my mission, but the hardest was with one of my companions. He called me out and said I was going astray, pointing out every detail of how I was wrong, and that I was apostate. in that moment I felt so hopeless and useless and dumb. It was so difficult because the Lord had been teaching me many things, at it was rough to be treated like I was of the devil or something because what the lord told me was not in agreement with the "bretheren". It kinda amazed me how much persecution the Lord suffered through. I'm thankful for Christ and his example, and his saving power. Whatever he leads me to understand, I will believe.

But Kudos to you for figuring this out a long time ago.

That is the reason the most precious truths Father reserves to teach to us directly. There are many things that are true but will send the run-of-the-mill member off the rails and so only those who knock and seek will have it opened and find.