Area Authority (Seventy) said Job 38:7 was "sexist!"???

[Bronco73idi]

The scriptures is sexist and racist to modern day standards. I don’t have a problem with that, the older I get the more I understand this.

[Trucker]

Maybe not us here in this forum, but some of the more vocal activists out there that wrote letters to SLC and were able to influence our leaders with these teachings? This was the thought I had as I pondered this question. How much are WE, collectively speaking, responsible for this reality we find ourselves in?

You cannot lobby church leaders and remain in good standing. You may sit and count the cost and still decide to do it, but there is no bottom-up influence in the church. And the leaders will not change from any action of church members unless the press or police get involved.

But now it cuts both ways: since members have no say in how the church is run, or what the doctrines or policies are, the members have no responsibility for them. Meaning, since the leaders can control and set everything, then the members have no collective responsibility and can't be held responsible except for in their individual lives.

So the leaders can't have all decision-making power, and yet blame the members for those decisions.

And a sort of "the members made us do it" excuse wouldn't fly either, because the members can't make the GA's give a particular message or teach a particular doctrine. That's on them.

There are plenty of examples of leaders shaming members for not doing something, only to shame them some years later for doing something, claiming they never taught it. Caffeinated sodas in vending machine at BYU is an easy example. As if the members dreamt up caffeine cola restrictions and imposed that on church leadership, but that's exactly what they claimed.

It's a sign of abusive leadership, actually.

Now you know what it feels like to be a woman. Women have had to deal with this throughout all of history - feeling like they have no control and no voice. That the men make all the decisions for them. If you want women to keep their traditional role, then you certainly can accept the traditional role of members having Presiding authorities rule over you and make decisions that affect you. But I wouldn't complain too much. These are such minor decisions compared with what a wife must submit to with a husband who wants the final say.

I completely agree. 100%. That's why I think the solution isn't to put women in charge, but to stop the abuse. Men do it to men, too. We need to get serious about bad behavior in the church, particularly from leaders to members. We need to have some better means of dealing with abuse, and we need to stop reinforcing patterns of weakening members and forcing them to have to do mental gymnastics to keep it all together.

We worship power and authority in the church, but leaders should be servants. Those that preside should be a little scared of being damned for exercising unrighteousness dominion. The Priesthood should be about serving others, not being in charge of others. If men didn't use Priesthood as a scepter of power, then a lot fewer women would feel marginalized and want the priesthood to to balance the scales.

[Rick Grimes]

Mormon feminists on liberal-leaning LDS blogs said they received surveys from the Church asking what things about the temple ceremonies bothered them. They claim that most of their peeves were eliminated in the Jan 2019 temple redo.

Maybe our leaders are making efforts to have "common consent." Maybe some of the things that bother women have been prayed about, and like with Africans, the curse is beginning to be lifted because of revelation.

What "curse" are you referring to? I'm curious.

22 Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

I'm not sure that's so much a curse as it is a permanent condition. "Curse" has the feel that it can and will be lifted. Priesthood "curse" on blacks was eventually lifted, but I'm not certain women will ever be reprieved from having to bear the souls of men. That and by virtue of the men wielding the priesthood, they should always be the leader of the family or to "rule" over their family. (I dont like the feel of that word too, but there you have it.) So I'm not sure this is a "curse" that women will ever be able to escape from.

[The East Wind]

More Woke speech. I remember hearing that Eve was wiser than Adam and that she wasnt fooled at all by Satan, and that Adam "wisely followed" his wife's leadership and wisdom by partaking of the fruit. Nevermind the scriptures quote Eve stating that she was indeed "beguiled". The first step to reimagining a society is to re-write history so it conforms to the values and beliefs of whatever the controlling agenda is.

Crazy you brought this up. Because in a Bishop training meeting the night before, he said this very thing. I am paraphrasing. He said that Eve partaking of the fruit was a revelatory action. Meaning she received revelation from God and Adam followed. He then concluded with "she saved us". I am not making this up.

And these people are supposed to be our leaders!

Just because someone comes on here and says they heard so and so say this doesn't mean it's true.

[Sarah]

Maybe our leaders are making efforts to have "common consent." Maybe some of the things that bother women have been prayed about, and like with Africans, the curse is beginning to be lifted because of revelation.

What "curse" are you referring to? I'm curious.

22 Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

I'm not sure that's so much a curse as it is a permanent condition. "Curse" has the feel that it can and will be lifted. Priesthood "curse" on blacks was eventually lifted, but I'm not certain women will ever be reprieved from having to bear the souls of men. That and by virtue of the men wielding the priesthood, they should always be the leader of the family or to "rule" over their family. (I dont like the feel of that word too, but there you have it.) So I'm not sure this is a "curse" that women will ever be able to escape from.

Well I invite you to rethink that notion. Men were cursed with a cursed earth to work with. That will be lifted and they will no longer have to work so hard by the sweat of their brow. In fact it's already being lifted. Most men don't do manual labor all day anymore. Women will no longer have their sorrow multiplied and have cursed bodies that make them dependent on men who take advantage of their weakness. Rather than men ruling over them, women will rule with men. Some of our early saints and leaders taught this.

Helen Mar Kimball
"To enter this much talked of order...is the first and grandest step towards advancement in that great and purifying plan laid down by the Almighty, and I know that it is a divine institution, and that it places women as well as men upon a higher plane, and will more quickly free her from that bondage and curse which fell upon her through transgression, than any other, and that the ones who practice and advocate it will be the first to stand again as man’s equal, as did our first mother, Eve, in the garden of Eden."

Brigham Young -
and I will here say a word to the ladies—Do not marvel, do not wonder at it,do not complain at Providence, do not find fault with mother Eve because your desire is to your husbands. Bear this with patience and fortitude! Be reconciled to it, meet your afflictions and the little—well, we might say, not very trifling, but still they are wants, for if we desire only that that is necessary, and can govern and control ourselves to be satisfied with that, it is a great deal better than to want a thousand things that are unnecessary, and especially to the female portion of the inhabitants of the earth. But there is a curse upon them, and I cannot take it off, can you? No, you cannot—it never will be taken from the human family until the mission is fulfilled, and our Master and our Lord is perfectly satisfied with our work. It will then be taken from this portion of the community, and will afflict them no more; but for the present it will afflict them.

George Q Cannon - 1869

If there were no books in existence, if the revelation itself were blotted out, and there was nothing written in its favor, extant among men, still I could bear testimony for myself that I know this is a principle which, if practiced in purity and virtue, as it should be, will result in the exaltation and benefit of the human family; and that it will exalt woman until she is redeemed from the effects of the Fall, and from that curse pronounced upon her in the beginning. I believe the correct practice of this principle will redeem woman from the effects of that curse—namely, “Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”

Joseph F. Smith -1878 (regarding plural marriage)
Joseph Smith, on the day it was written, expressly declared that there was a great deal more connected with the doctrine which would be revealed in due time, but this was sufficient for the occasion, and was made to suffice for the time. And, indeed, I think it much more than many are prepared to live up to even now.

[The East Wind]

I was recently at a special fireside for the youth in our stake. I took some of the YM from our congregation. During the presentation the Area Authority had them read Job 38:7. After one of the YW read it, he stated emphatically that the phrase "sons of God shouted for joy" was in fact sexist, and the writers of the bible texts were sometimes sexist. He stated it should read "daughters and sons of God". He mentioned the word sexist three times to the youth (ages 11-18) in regard to this scripture phrasing. This seemed off to me. Especially using the word sexist in this context. Have visiting authorities (seventies) used this language in your special meetings?

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Maybe the scripture is saying the girls sang and the boys shouted. My study of "Morning Stars" or reference of Venus deals with the feminine. Christ and Lucifer are referenced by the Morning Star. However, anciently and symbolically, the Morning Star was ascribed to the feminine/ female.

Who is this area authority seventy? Could we get a name here please?

Not going to happen. You can say anything you want on the internet about anyone and people will believe it. People will even believe it when a source is not given of that person.

[pho·to·syn·the·sis]

I was recently at a special fireside for the youth in our stake. I took some of the YM from our congregation. During the presentation the Area Authority had them read Job 38:7. After one of the YW read it, he stated emphatically that the phrase "sons of God shouted for joy" was in fact sexist, and the writers of the bible texts were sometimes sexist. He stated it should read "daughters and sons of God". He mentioned the word sexist three times to the youth (ages 11-18) in regard to this scripture phrasing. This seemed off to me. Especially using the word sexist in this context. Have visiting authorities (seventies) used this language in your special meetings?

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Maybe the scripture is saying the girls sang and the boys shouted. My study of "Morning Stars" or reference of Venus deals with the feminine. Christ and Lucifer are referenced by the Morning Star. However, anciently and symbolically, the Morning Star was ascribed to the feminine/ female.

Who is this area authority seventy? Could we get a name here please?

Not going to happen. You can say anything you want on the internet about anyone and people will believe it. People will even believe it when a source is not given of that person.

I sent him a PM

[Sarah]

More quotes:

Brigham Young:
"The female portion of the human family have blessings promised to
them if they are faithful.  I do not know what the Lord could have
put upon women worse than he did upon Mother Eve, where he told her:
"Thy desire shall be to thy husband."  Continually wanting the
husband.  "If you go to work my eyes follow you; if you go away in
the carriage, my eyes follow you, and I desire you should have
nobody else."  I do not know that the Lord could have put upon women
anything worse than this, I do not blame them for having these
feelings.  I would be glad if it were otherwise.  Says a woman of
faith and knowledge, "I will make the best of it; it is a law that
man shall rule over me; his word is my law, and I must obey him; he
must rule over me; this is upon me and I will submit to it," and by
so doing she has promises that others do not have."

Hugh Nibley:
"There is no patriarchy or matriarchy in the Garden; the two
supervise each other.  Adam is given no arbitrary power.  Eve is to
heed him only insofar as he obeys their Father--and who decides
that?  She must keep check on him as much as he does on her.  It is,
if you will, a system of checks and balances in which each party is
as distinct and independent in its sphere as are the departments of
government under the Constitution and just as dependent on each
other."

These next three quotes are from Eliza R. Snow:

"Inasmuch as we continue to be faithful, we shall be those that will
be crowned in the presence of God and the Lamb.  You, my sisters, if
you are faithful, will become Queens of Queens, and Priestesses unto
the Most High God.  These are your callings.  We have only to
discharge our duties."

"What we experience here, is but a school wherein the ruled will be
prepared to rule.  And thru' obedience, Woman will obtain the power
of reigning, and the right to reign."

"The Lord has placed the means in our hands, in the Gospel,
whereby we can regain our lost position.  But how?  Can it be done
by rising, as women are doing in the world, to clamor for our
rights?  No.  It was through disobedience that woman came into her
present position, and it is only by obedience, honoring God in all
the institutions he has revealed to us, that we can come out from
under that curse, regain the position originally occupied by Eve,
and attain to a fullness of exaltation in the presence of God.

Brigham Young
"I believe the correct practice of this principle (plurality of wives) will redeem woman from the effects of that curse -- namely, "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he
shall rule over thee."  All the evils connected with jealousy have
their origin in this.  It is natural for woman to cleave to man; it
was pronounced upon her in the beginning, seemingly as a punishment.
I believe the time will come when, by the practice of the virtuous
principles which God has revealed, woman will be emancipated from
that punishment and that feeling.  Will she cease to love man?  No,
it is not necessary for her to cease to love."

Bruce R McKonkie
"Under conditions of full gospel equality, perfect fairness and equity would prevail in every sphere of life. All persons similarly situated would be treated exactly the same as all other such persons; all would enjoy and possess the same things. Perfect impartiality would reign, for "there should be an equality among all men." (Mosiah 27:3; Alma 1:26) .....Perfect equality does not now prevail, either in the world or in the Church. But when life is perfected among the saints and when the highest gospel law is lived, then both temporal and spiritual equality will prevail....." 

James E. Talmage, "The Eternity of Sex", Young Woman's Journal, Oct. 1914: 602-3 page 138:
"In the restored Church of Jesus Christ the Holy Priesthood is conferred, as an individual bestowal, upon men only, and this in accordance with Divine requirement. It is not given to woman to exercise the authority of the Priesthood independently; nevertheless, in the sacred endowments associated with the ordinances pertaining to the House of the Lord, woman shares with man the blessings of the Priesthood. When the frailities and imperfections of mortality are left behind, in the glorified state of the blessed hereafter, husband and wife will administer in their respective stations, seeing and understanding alike, and cooperating to the full in the government of their family kingdom.
"Then shall woman be recompensed in rich measure for all the injustice that womanhood has endured in mortality. Then shall woman reign by Divine right, a queen in the resplendent realm of her glorified state, even as exalted man shall stand, priest and king unto the Most High God. Mortal eye cannot see nor mind comprehend the beauty, glory, and majesty of the righteous woman made perfect in the celestial kingdom of God."

Brigham Young
Conference, April 6th 1862 "I have had visions and revelations instructing me how to organize this people so that they can live like the family of heaven, but I cannot do it while so much selfishness and wickedness reign in the Elders of Israel. Many would make of the greatest blessings a curse to them, as they do now the plurality of wives—the abuse of that principle will send thousands to hell. There are many great and glorious privileges for the people, which they are not prepared to receive. How long it will be before they are prepared to enjoy the blessings God has in store for them, I know not—it has not been revealed to me. I know the Lord wants to pour blessings upon this people, but were he to do so in their present ignorance, they would not know what to do with them. They can receive only a very little and that must be administered to them with great care.

[Alaris]

More quotes:

Brigham Young:
"The female portion of the human family have blessings promised to
them if they are faithful.  I do not know what the Lord could have
put upon women worse than he did upon Mother Eve, where he told her:
"Thy desire shall be to thy husband."  Continually wanting the
husband.  "If you go to work my eyes follow you; if you go away in
the carriage, my eyes follow you, and I desire you should have
nobody else."  I do not know that the Lord could have put upon women
anything worse than this, I do not blame them for having these
feelings.  I would be glad if it were otherwise.  Says a woman of
faith and knowledge, "I will make the best of it; it is a law that
man shall rule over me; his word is my law, and I must obey him; he
must rule over me; this is upon me and I will submit to it," and by
so doing she has promises that others do not have."

Hugh Nibley:
"There is no patriarchy or matriarchy in the Garden; the two
supervise each other.  Adam is given no arbitrary power.  Eve is to
heed him only insofar as he obeys their Father--and who decides
that?  She must keep check on him as much as he does on her.  It is,
if you will, a system of checks and balances in which each party is
as distinct and independent in its sphere as are the departments of
government under the Constitution and just as dependent on each
other."

These next three quotes are from Eliza R. Snow:

"Inasmuch as we continue to be faithful, we shall be those that will
be crowned in the presence of God and the Lamb.  You, my sisters, if
you are faithful, will become Queens of Queens, and Priestesses unto
the Most High God.  These are your callings.  We have only to
discharge our duties."

"What we experience here, is but a school wherein the ruled will be
prepared to rule.  And thru' obedience, Woman will obtain the power
of reigning, and the right to reign."

"The Lord has placed the means in our hands, in the Gospel,
whereby we can regain our lost position.  But how?  Can it be done
by rising, as women are doing in the world, to clamor for our
rights?  No.  It was through disobedience that woman came into her
present position, and it is only by obedience, honoring God in all
the institutions he has revealed to us, that we can come out from
under that curse, regain the position originally occupied by Eve,
and attain to a fullness of exaltation in the presence of God.

Brigham Young
"I believe the correct practice of this principle (plurality of wives) will redeem woman from the effects of that curse -- namely, "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he
shall rule over thee."  All the evils connected with jealousy have
their origin in this.  It is natural for woman to cleave to man; it
was pronounced upon her in the beginning, seemingly as a punishment.
I believe the time will come when, by the practice of the virtuous
principles which God has revealed, woman will be emancipated from
that punishment and that feeling.  Will she cease to love man?  No,
it is not necessary for her to cease to love."

Bruce R McKonkie
"Under conditions of full gospel equality, perfect fairness and equity would prevail in every sphere of life. All persons similarly situated would be treated exactly the same as all other such persons; all would enjoy and possess the same things. Perfect impartiality would reign, for "there should be an equality among all men." (Mosiah 27:3; Alma 1:26) .....Perfect equality does not now prevail, either in the world or in the Church. But when life is perfected among the saints and when the highest gospel law is lived, then both temporal and spiritual equality will prevail....." 

James E. Talmage, "The Eternity of Sex", Young Woman's Journal, Oct. 1914: 602-3 page 138:
"In the restored Church of Jesus Christ the Holy Priesthood is conferred, as an individual bestowal, upon men only, and this in accordance with Divine requirement. It is not given to woman to exercise the authority of the Priesthood independently; nevertheless, in the sacred endowments associated with the ordinances pertaining to the House of the Lord, woman shares with man the blessings of the Priesthood. When the frailities and imperfections of mortality are left behind, in the glorified state of the blessed hereafter, husband and wife will administer in their respective stations, seeing and understanding alike, and cooperating to the full in the government of their family kingdom.
"Then shall woman be recompensed in rich measure for all the injustice that womanhood has endured in mortality. Then shall woman reign by Divine right, a queen in the resplendent realm of her glorified state, even as exalted man shall stand, priest and king unto the Most High God. Mortal eye cannot see nor mind comprehend the beauty, glory, and majesty of the righteous woman made perfect in the celestial kingdom of God."

Brigham Young
Conference, April 6th 1862 "I have had visions and revelations instructing me how to organize this people so that they can live like the family of heaven, but I cannot do it while so much selfishness and wickedness reign in the Elders of Israel. Many would make of the greatest blessings a curse to them, as they do now the plurality of wives—the abuse of that principle will send thousands to hell. There are many great and glorious privileges for the people, which they are not prepared to receive. How long it will be before they are prepared to enjoy the blessings God has in store for them, I know not—it has not been revealed to me. I know the Lord wants to pour blessings upon this people, but were he to do so in their present ignorance, they would not know what to do with them. They can receive only a very little and that must be administered to them with great care.

First of all Sarah, I have no idea what this thread is about, but these quotes are incredible and should be in an independent thread about the curse of Eve or the curses of the fall! How insightful is that first quote - in a (terrestrial) world where a woman no longer needs a man's protection ... or a man's providing .... wow!

That James E. Talmage quote is incredibly insightful as well. He contrasts a woman's reliance on her husband's priesthood with the promises of the temple. I believe we are transition from the time of the Law of the Gospel / Time of the Gentiles to the Gathering of Israel / Law of Chastity / Time of the Priest & Priestess - from the fifth spiritual level to the sixth. The time of seeing, hearing, and understanding. Of course the Law of Chastity isn't new, but to truly live the higher law of chastity means to master our thoughts and to establish ZION we must be of one heart and one mind. The above adds a new layer of understanding for me. To truly live the law of chastity there can be no element of compulsion. If a woman can hold her power and protection independently of men .... wow.

"Then shall woman be recompensed in rich measure for all the injustice that womanhood has endured in mortality. Then shall woman reign by Divine right, a queen in the resplendent realm of her glorified state, even as exalted man shall stand, priest and king unto the Most High God. Mortal eye cannot see nor mind comprehend the beauty, glory, and majesty of the righteous woman made perfect in the celestial kingdom of God."

(This looks like a quote within the James E Talmage quote - what is he quoting here?)

This certainly adds a new layer of "Without compulsory means" from D&C 121. When a man calls his wife to resurrect, she indeed cannot be compelled to answer just as he cannot be compelled to call. Celestial marriage is built on a desire for each other free from the pressures of mortality which we could never learn to be free of without enduring them.

Can you imagine if President Nelson announces something along these lines? "The church isn't fully restored" in indeed - There can be no restoration of all things without the removal of the curses of the fall.

I agree with your comments too Sarah about how we're already witnessing this with both men and women. Not long ago women could not vote. Men are more free to work with their minds rather than by the sweat of their body. Yet the adversary seems to try to preempt what's coming with counterfeits, such as the feminist "empowerment" movement. Anyway - much to ponder here thank you.

[Rick Grimes]

That's a lot of quotes Sarah. Impressive.

If one wants to look at "work" and "child bearing" as curses, well I guess you can equate them as curses. I choose not to look at it this way. Many women enjoy the process and bonding that takes place between a mother and child while she is carrying them. It maybe painful, but many women deal with it and enjoy the blessings that come from the unique relationship she will always have with their child as a result of this "curse". In the same token, even though work can sometimes not be fun, a lot of people find it rewarding and a way to serve their fellow men in some small way. Studies have shown that people who retire earlier tend to die sooner, while those that stay busy, usually with a work of some kind, tend to live longer as well. I think both of these situations will only better serve us in the eternities to come as we will understand and appreciate not having to endure these physical discomforts.
As to your point of these curses being lifted, I couldn't disagree more with you. Men still have to work to provide. The labor maybe different, but the work and effort are still the same. Without work, one would be unable to provide for their family. Just the same, women are still getting pregnant and are still bearing children. Physical pregnancy will nm ot end until the work is done entirely, so I guess we can look forward to that.

One key point that I thought was interesting was the quote from Brigham that indicated that women would only free themselves from the "curse" when they lived the law of plural marriage with humility and patience. Last I checked, we aren't living that law right now and many sisters are absolutely opposed to it. So, by Brighams reasoning, this "curse" may never be taken away because the sisters are not living by this law anymore, nor do they want to.

[JK4Woods]

This 70 is obviously an idiot.

Aren’t most of them...??
(Referring to the non visible “area seventies”.

[Sarah]

That's a lot of quotes Sarah. Impressive.

If one wants to look at "work" and "child bearing" as curses, well I guess you can equate them as curses. I choose not to look at it this way. Many women enjoy the process and bonding that takes place between a mother and child while she is carrying them. It maybe painful, but many women deal with it and enjoy the blessings that come from the unique relationship she will always have with their child as a result of this "curse". In the same token, even though work can sometimes not be fun, a lot of people find it rewarding and a way to serve their fellow men in some small way. Studies have shown that people who retire earlier tend to die sooner, while those that stay busy, usually with a work of some kind, tend to live longer as well. I think both of these situations will only better serve us in the eternities to come as we will understand and appreciate not having to endure these physical discomforts.
As to your point of these curses being lifted, I couldn't disagree more with you. Men still have to work to provide. The labor maybe different, but the work and effort are still the same. Without work, one would be unable to provide for their family. Just the same, women are still getting pregnant and are still bearing children. Physical pregnancy will nm ot end until the work is done entirely, so I guess we can look forward to that.

One key point that I thought was interesting was the quote from Brigham that indicated that women would only free themselves from the "curse" when they lived the law of plural marriage with humility and patience. Last I checked, we aren't living that law right now and many sisters are absolutely opposed to it. So, by Brighams reasoning, this "curse" may never be taken away because the sisters are not living by this law anymore, nor do they want to.

The concept of work and child bearing or creating is not the curse, it is all the pain and suffering that a telestial mortality brings with these things that is the curse for transgressing. I love having children, but I don't like the physical problems and trials that come with pregnancy and caring for a newborn. Yes, that sacrifice creates an unbreakable bond of love between mother and child, but I sure hope that in the next life the sacrifices are different in that we don't have all the pain and suffering we have in this life. We will have learned from it!
Women have a unique curse in that they cannot take care of themselves and their children when they are pregnant or caring for a baby. We are weak, and dependent upon others - men particularly to provide food and shelter. This weakness and dependency causes many a man to take advantage of this weakness, because a woman has no other choice than to comply and obey. Woman are in a situation where they are forced to be humble and submissive, or they starve, or get beaten or whatever else. So this dependency being lifted will allow women to not be forced into this situation. In fact, there is a village in Africa where the women are so fed up with the men abusing them that they have banded together to take care of one another and have sworn off men. All men need to do is to treat women with the same dignity and respect that they receive themselves, and given the same freedoms, and we wouldn't have "feminism"

Your point about plural marriage being the cause of the curse to be lifted - the fact is, is that many women in our church, if preached the same sermons as yonder and received the same revelations as many of these women, would indeed practice it if it was offered to them. But our early sisters did practice it, and it was supposed to teach the men a thing or two about love and sacrifice, but it did not, and the men did not unite, and so it was taken away because the men did not progress. I wouldn't be surprised either way - the women may first be asked to give their husbands to another before the full Law is revealed or allowed, but I rather think that we will try to live the United Order first this time, sharing our temporal things, and then the Law will be introduced in full, so that women can have the same freedoms as the men. I think these women who practiced it in the beginning fulfilled the curse, and perhaps more than anything they would want their sacrifice to mean something for their posterity and not be wasted. They would want this curse to be fulfilled in them, and indeed I think it has.

[Sarah]

More quotes:

Brigham Young:
"The female portion of the human family have blessings promised to
them if they are faithful.  I do not know what the Lord could have
put upon women worse than he did upon Mother Eve, where he told her:
"Thy desire shall be to thy husband."  Continually wanting the
husband.  "If you go to work my eyes follow you; if you go away in
the carriage, my eyes follow you, and I desire you should have
nobody else."  I do not know that the Lord could have put upon women
anything worse than this, I do not blame them for having these
feelings.  I would be glad if it were otherwise.  Says a woman of
faith and knowledge, "I will make the best of it; it is a law that
man shall rule over me; his word is my law, and I must obey him; he
must rule over me; this is upon me and I will submit to it," and by
so doing she has promises that others do not have."

Hugh Nibley:
"There is no patriarchy or matriarchy in the Garden; the two
supervise each other.  Adam is given no arbitrary power.  Eve is to
heed him only insofar as he obeys their Father--and who decides
that?  She must keep check on him as much as he does on her.  It is,
if you will, a system of checks and balances in which each party is
as distinct and independent in its sphere as are the departments of
government under the Constitution and just as dependent on each
other."

These next three quotes are from Eliza R. Snow:

"Inasmuch as we continue to be faithful, we shall be those that will
be crowned in the presence of God and the Lamb.  You, my sisters, if
you are faithful, will become Queens of Queens, and Priestesses unto
the Most High God.  These are your callings.  We have only to
discharge our duties."

"What we experience here, is but a school wherein the ruled will be
prepared to rule.  And thru' obedience, Woman will obtain the power
of reigning, and the right to reign."

"The Lord has placed the means in our hands, in the Gospel,
whereby we can regain our lost position.  But how?  Can it be done
by rising, as women are doing in the world, to clamor for our
rights?  No.  It was through disobedience that woman came into her
present position, and it is only by obedience, honoring God in all
the institutions he has revealed to us, that we can come out from
under that curse, regain the position originally occupied by Eve,
and attain to a fullness of exaltation in the presence of God.

Brigham Young
"I believe the correct practice of this principle (plurality of wives) will redeem woman from the effects of that curse -- namely, "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he
shall rule over thee."  All the evils connected with jealousy have
their origin in this.  It is natural for woman to cleave to man; it
was pronounced upon her in the beginning, seemingly as a punishment.
I believe the time will come when, by the practice of the virtuous
principles which God has revealed, woman will be emancipated from
that punishment and that feeling.  Will she cease to love man?  No,
it is not necessary for her to cease to love."

Bruce R McKonkie
"Under conditions of full gospel equality, perfect fairness and equity would prevail in every sphere of life. All persons similarly situated would be treated exactly the same as all other such persons; all would enjoy and possess the same things. Perfect impartiality would reign, for "there should be an equality among all men." (Mosiah 27:3; Alma 1:26) .....Perfect equality does not now prevail, either in the world or in the Church. But when life is perfected among the saints and when the highest gospel law is lived, then both temporal and spiritual equality will prevail....." 

James E. Talmage, "The Eternity of Sex", Young Woman's Journal, Oct. 1914: 602-3 page 138:
"In the restored Church of Jesus Christ the Holy Priesthood is conferred, as an individual bestowal, upon men only, and this in accordance with Divine requirement. It is not given to woman to exercise the authority of the Priesthood independently; nevertheless, in the sacred endowments associated with the ordinances pertaining to the House of the Lord, woman shares with man the blessings of the Priesthood. When the frailities and imperfections of mortality are left behind, in the glorified state of the blessed hereafter, husband and wife will administer in their respective stations, seeing and understanding alike, and cooperating to the full in the government of their family kingdom.
"Then shall woman be recompensed in rich measure for all the injustice that womanhood has endured in mortality. Then shall woman reign by Divine right, a queen in the resplendent realm of her glorified state, even as exalted man shall stand, priest and king unto the Most High God. Mortal eye cannot see nor mind comprehend the beauty, glory, and majesty of the righteous woman made perfect in the celestial kingdom of God."

Brigham Young
Conference, April 6th 1862 "I have had visions and revelations instructing me how to organize this people so that they can live like the family of heaven, but I cannot do it while so much selfishness and wickedness reign in the Elders of Israel. Many would make of the greatest blessings a curse to them, as they do now the plurality of wives—the abuse of that principle will send thousands to hell. There are many great and glorious privileges for the people, which they are not prepared to receive. How long it will be before they are prepared to enjoy the blessings God has in store for them, I know not—it has not been revealed to me. I know the Lord wants to pour blessings upon this people, but were he to do so in their present ignorance, they would not know what to do with them. They can receive only a very little and that must be administered to them with great care.

First of all Sarah, I have no idea what this thread is about, but these quotes are incredible and should be in an independent thread about the curse of Eve or the curses of the fall! How insightful is that first quote - in a (terrestrial) world where a woman no longer needs a man's protection ... or a man's providing .... wow!

That James E. Talmage quote is incredibly insightful as well. He contrasts a woman's reliance on her husband's priesthood with the promises of the temple. I believe we are transition from the time of the Law of the Gospel / Time of the Gentiles to the Gathering of Israel / Law of Chastity / Time of the Priest & Priestess - from the fifth spiritual level to the sixth. The time of seeing, hearing, and understanding. Of course the Law of Chastity isn't new, but to truly live the higher law of chastity means to master our thoughts and to establish ZION we must be of one heart and one mind. The above adds a new layer of understanding for me. To truly live the law of chastity there can be no element of compulsion. If a woman can hold her power and protection independently of men .... wow.

"Then shall woman be recompensed in rich measure for all the injustice that womanhood has endured in mortality. Then shall woman reign by Divine right, a queen in the resplendent realm of her glorified state, even as exalted man shall stand, priest and king unto the Most High God. Mortal eye cannot see nor mind comprehend the beauty, glory, and majesty of the righteous woman made perfect in the celestial kingdom of God."

(This looks like a quote within the James E Talmage quote - what is he quoting here?)

This certainly adds a new layer of "Without compulsory means" from D&C 121. When a man calls his wife to resurrect, she indeed cannot be compelled to answer just as he cannot be compelled to call. Celestial marriage is built on a desire for each other free from the pressures of mortality which we could never learn to be free of without enduring them.

Can you imagine if President Nelson announces something along these lines? "The church isn't fully restored" in indeed - There can be no restoration of all things without the removal of the curses of the fall.

I agree with your comments too Sarah about how we're already witnessing this with both men and women. Not long ago women could not vote. Men are more free to work with their minds rather than by the sweat of their body. Yet the adversary seems to try to preempt what's coming with counterfeits, such as the feminist "empowerment" movement. Anyway - much to ponder here thank you.

Thanks Alaris. You make some great points about what we are seeing take place. We do live in exciting times and it does seem that we are transitioning to a new level of existence and testing. I look forward to all the curses being lifted.

I looked for that particular Talmage quote and found it here http://signaturebookslibrary.org/catego ... essential/

It was preceded by these words:
"The status of woman in the world is a subject of present-day discussion and an element of current social unrest; it is, however, by no means a new topic. The female sex is not infrequently referred to as the weaker of the two. As gauged by physical standards this classification may be essentially correct. And be it said to the discredit and shame of the stronger sex, man through the centuries gone has been prone to use his superior strength to the oppression of woman. She has suffered the greatest humiliation during periods of spiritual darkness, when the Gospel of Christ was forgotten. Woman occupies a position all her own in the eternal economy of the Creator; and in that position she is as truly superior to man as is he to her in his appointed place. Woman shall yet come to her own, exercising her rights and her privileges as a sanctified investiture which none shall dare profane.

It is part of woman’s mission in this life to occupy a secondary position of authority in the activities of the world, both in the home and in the affairs of public concern. Of this condition, explanation and justification may be found in the fact that in every organization, however simple or complex, there must needs be a centralization of authority, in short, a head. The secular law recognizes the husband as the head of the household, and theoretically at least holds hi[m] accountable for his administration. That many men fail in their station, that some are weak and unfit, that in particular instances the wife may be the more capable and in divers ways the better of the pair, should not be considered as evidencing impropriety or unrighteousness in the established order as a general condition. Woman should be regarded, not in the sense of privilege but of right, as the associate of man in the community of the home, and they two should form the governing head of the family institution, while to each separately pertain duties and functions which the other is less qualified to discharge. Weakness or inefficiency on the part of either in specified instances must not be taken to impugn the wisdom by which the organization of the home and of society has been planned."

[Sirius]

Well if we go from the scriptures and not a video from the temple, we see in Moses 3, that Adam was the only one whom received the commandment to not eat of the forbidden fruit, directly from God. Eve, had not yet been brought forth. We can deduce from Moses 4, that she received this information later from her husband, Adam (God's established pattern). Satan doesn't even try to tempt Adam, but goes straight to Eve. We can see in the Lord God's response to Adam and Eve, that Satan had gotten them outside His established pattern, as Adam was hearkening to his wife. God restores His set pattern before removing them from the Garden.

22 Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

23 And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

29 Therefore I, the Lord God, will send him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken;

30 For as I, the Lord God, liveth, even so my words cannot return void, for as they go forth out of my mouth they must be fulfilled.

31 So I drove out the man, and I placed at the east of the Garden of Eden, cherubim and a flaming sword, which turned every way to keep the way of the tree of life.

[Rick Grimes]

Quotes from nice talks given by GAs do not at all indicate doctrine. True doctrine lines up with the established words in the standard works. The GAs know their audience and will tailor their words to be acceptable and pleasing by their audience. I happen to think very highly of Pres. Faust and do believe his talk is laden with good doctrine. However, I think some feminists are taking things out of context and reading too much into talks and infer that priesthood will be eventually bestowed to them. That man will not always be "ruling over them". They mistake the words "ruling" and "presiding". In our current free society, we infer "rule" with tyranny and unrighteousness. However, true priesthood holders do not lead this way. If we can agree that a man, although imperfect, but worthy to bear the priesthood, should preside over his family, then we are not far from the Kingdom of Heaven. The government of heaven is through the priesthood. Women will benefit from it and will resplendently rule with their husbands, but the government and authority will always be centered on righteous priesthood. Those that think otherwise are denying God's instruction to our first parents. Changes to the temple oaths due to this unrighteous and prideful demand by feminists do not alter the decree that men should lead in the home.

Those that point to abuse as being reasons why all patriarchy is wrong and should be avoided, are using poor examples to judge the entire God given system. I repeat, it is a God given system to how a family unit should be. Feminism robs women of their husbands and children of their fathers, by emasculating and minimizing the husband and the divine role he plays in the governance of the family. We are already seeing the downfall of the family unit because of this breakdown. Single parent households (only a mom) see children with a higher number of issues with the law, teenage promiscuity, teenage pregnancy, increased odds of childhood mortality, increased odds of childhood molestation,etc... (the last two due to single moms bringing their boyfriends around their kids that are either a good used or molested by them) Feminism, although useful in spreading awareness of abuse and tyranny, has done all the good that it was capable of doing and is now actively seeking to destroy the family by targeting anything masculine and patriarchal. The proclamation to the world confirms this and warns nations of calamities and destruction if these God given instructions are not adhered to.

[Sarah]

Well if we go from the scriptures and not a video from the temple, we see in Moses 3, that Adam was the only one whom received the commandment to not eat of the forbidden fruit, directly from God. Eve, had not yet been brought forth. We can deduce from Moses 4, that she received this information later from her husband, Adam (God's established pattern). Satan doesn't even try to tempt Adam, but goes straight to Eve. We can see in the Lord God's response to Adam and Eve, that Satan had gotten them outside His established pattern, as Adam was hearkening to his wife. God restores His set pattern before removing them from the Garden.

22 Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

23 And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

29 Therefore I, the Lord God, will send him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken;

30 For as I, the Lord God, liveth, even so my words cannot return void, for as they go forth out of my mouth they must be fulfilled.

31 So I drove out the man, and I placed at the east of the Garden of Eden, cherubim and a flaming sword, which turned every way to keep the way of the tree of life.

The Moses version is just like Genesis, and also has a serpent rather than Satan speaking, so was it really a serpent that spoke with Adam and Eve?
With this assumption that Eve was created after the commandments given to Adam, it would seem that Adam was the only one responsible for obeying the commandment, since he was the only one who heard the Lord declare it. There is no commandment to Adam to relay the commandments to Eve. There is no commandment to even command Eve, but to simply cleave unto her. Eve would not of heard the commandment, nor does it say that Adam communicated those commandments to her, so you're making a huge assumption. But we do see in Chapter 4, Eve telling the serpent that "God hath said - Ye shall not eat of it" She doesn't say Adam communicated that message to her after the fact and that she simply trusted him. I think Eve received the commandment from God, and the Genesis/Moses version is the story passed down that might not reflect every detail of what really happened. We know that the part of the story where Eve was created from Adam's rib is not really how it happened, so why do we believe everything else is literal.

[Sirius]

Well if we go from the scriptures and not a video from the temple, we see in Moses 3, that Adam was the only one whom received the commandment to not eat of the forbidden fruit, directly from God. Eve, had not yet been brought forth. We can deduce from Moses 4, that she received this information later from her husband, Adam (God's established pattern). Satan doesn't even try to tempt Adam, but goes straight to Eve. We can see in the Lord God's response to Adam and Eve, that Satan had gotten them outside His established pattern, as Adam was hearkening to his wife. God restores His set pattern before removing them from the Garden.

22 Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

23 And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

29 Therefore I, the Lord God, will send him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken;

30 For as I, the Lord God, liveth, even so my words cannot return void, for as they go forth out of my mouth they must be fulfilled.

31 So I drove out the man, and I placed at the east of the Garden of Eden, cherubim and a flaming sword, which turned every way to keep the way of the tree of life.

The Moses version is just like Genesis, and also has a serpent rather than Satan speaking, so was it really a serpent that spoke with Adam and Eve?
With this assumption that Eve was created after the commandments given to Adam, it would seem that Adam was the only one responsible for obeying the commandment, since he was the only one who heard the Lord declare it. There is no commandment to Adam to relay the commandments to Eve. There is no commandment to even command Eve, but to simply cleave unto her. Eve would not of heard the commandment, nor does it say that Adam communicated those commandments to her, so you're making a huge assumption. But we do see in Chapter 4, Eve telling the serpent that "God hath said - Ye shall not eat of it" She doesn't say Adam communicated that message to her after the fact and that she simply trusted him. I think Eve received the commandment from God, and the Genesis/Moses version is the story passed down that might not reflect every detail of what really happened. We know that the part of the story where Eve was created from Adam's rib is not really how it happened, so why do we believe everything else is literal.

Now you're seeing the wisdom of God Perfect Plan.

[Sarah]

Quotes from nice talks given by GAs do not at all indicate doctrine. True doctrine lines up with the established words in the standard works. The GAs know their audience and will tailor their words to be acceptable and pleasing by their audience. I happen to think very highly of Pres. Faust and do believe his talk is laden with good doctrine. However, I think some feminists are taking things out of context and reading too much into talks and infer that priesthood will be eventually bestowed to them. That man will not always be "ruling over them". They mistake the words "ruling" and "presiding". In our current free society, we infer "rule" with tyranny and unrighteousness. However, true priesthood holders do not lead this way. If we can agree that a man, although imperfect, but worthy to bear the priesthood, should preside over his family, then we are not far from the Kingdom of Heaven. The government of heaven is through the priesthood. Women will benefit from it and will resplendently rule with their husbands, but the government and authority will always be centered on righteous priesthood. Those that think otherwise are denying God's instruction to our first parents. Changes to the temple oaths due to this unrighteous and prideful demand by feminists do not alter the decree that men should lead in the home.

Those that point to abuse as being reasons why all patriarchy is wrong and should be avoided, are using poor examples to judge the entire God given system. I repeat, it is a God given system to how a family unit should be. Feminism robs women of their husbands and children of their fathers, by emasculating and minimizing the husband and the divine role he plays in the governance of the family. We are already seeing the downfall of the family unit because of this breakdown. Single parent households (only a mom) see children with a higher number of issues with the law, teenage promiscuity, teenage pregnancy, increased odds of childhood mortality, increased odds of childhood molestation,etc... (the last two due to single moms bringing their boyfriends around their kids that are either a good used or molested by them) Feminism, although useful in spreading awareness of abuse and tyranny, has done all the good that it was capable of doing and is now actively seeking to destroy the family by targeting anything masculine and patriarchal. The proclamation to the world confirms this and warns nations of calamities and destruction if these God given instructions are not adhered to.

Just because God has given a system of laws and governance doesn't mean it is the ideal. We don't live the Law of Moses anymore, we know that Enoch's people live a different system than we do. We know that the marriage system can include plurality. So God's systems are given in stages and be different at different times. I'm totally fine with living within our current system of men having authority to preside here and now, allowing men to lead, and learn from it. They need that to be tested and to grow. But if they don't learn from it and make a mess of leading their families, then there's no harm in reassuring women that they do not have to endure this type of system - where men decide everything - forever. Do you not believe that women will some day be Priestesses? Does that not infer that we will someday hold and exercise priesthood authority?

The wickedness of men has had a much larger impact on families than women demanding equal rights. If men were righteous and kind and fair leaders, we would not have feminism. Single moms are created how? Men leaving them on their own. How is this women's fault? Where are the Dads? Yes there are lots of women who sleep around, but where are the Fathers? Where is the leadership and commitment to Fatherhood?

[Rick Grimes]

Quotes from nice talks given by GAs do not at all indicate doctrine. True doctrine lines up with the established words in the standard works. The GAs know their audience and will tailor their words to be acceptable and pleasing by their audience. I happen to think very highly of Pres. Faust and do believe his talk is laden with good doctrine. However, I think some feminists are taking things out of context and reading too much into talks and infer that priesthood will be eventually bestowed to them. That man will not always be "ruling over them". They mistake the words "ruling" and "presiding". In our current free society, we infer "rule" with tyranny and unrighteousness. However, true priesthood holders do not lead this way. If we can agree that a man, although imperfect, but worthy to bear the priesthood, should preside over his family, then we are not far from the Kingdom of Heaven. The government of heaven is through the priesthood. Women will benefit from it and will resplendently rule with their husbands, but the government and authority will always be centered on righteous priesthood. Those that think otherwise are denying God's instruction to our first parents. Changes to the temple oaths due to this unrighteous and prideful demand by feminists do not alter the decree that men should lead in the home.

Those that point to abuse as being reasons why all patriarchy is wrong and should be avoided, are using poor examples to judge the entire God given system. I repeat, it is a God given system to how a family unit should be. Feminism robs women of their husbands and children of their fathers, by emasculating and minimizing the husband and the divine role he plays in the governance of the family. We are already seeing the downfall of the family unit because of this breakdown. Single parent households (only a mom) see children with a higher number of issues with the law, teenage promiscuity, teenage pregnancy, increased odds of childhood mortality, increased odds of childhood molestation,etc... (the last two due to single moms bringing their boyfriends around their kids that are either a good used or molested by them) Feminism, although useful in spreading awareness of abuse and tyranny, has done all the good that it was capable of doing and is now actively seeking to destroy the family by targeting anything masculine and patriarchal. The proclamation to the world confirms this and warns nations of calamities and destruction if these God given instructions are not adhered to.

Just because God has given a system of laws and governance doesn't mean it is the ideal. We don't live the Law of Moses anymore, we know that Enoch's people live a different system than we do. We know that the marriage system can include plurality. So God's systems are given in stages and be different at different times. I'm totally fine with living within our current system of men having authority to preside here and now, allowing men to lead, and learn from it. They need that to be tested and to grow. But if they don't learn from it and make a mess of leading their families, then there's no harm in reassuring women that they do not have to endure this type of system - where men decide everything - forever. Do you not believe that women will some day be Priestesses? Does that not infer that we will someday hold and exercise priesthood authority?

The wickedness of men has had a much larger impact on families than women demanding equal rights. If men were righteous and kind and fair leaders, we would not have feminism. Single moms are created how? Men leaving them on their own. How is this women's fault? Where are the Dads? Yes there are lots of women who sleep around, but where are the Fathers? Where is the leadership and commitment to Fatherhood?

Sarah,
I dont disagree with you on the fact that there has been much wickedness and abuse from men towards women. It is a crime against nature the abuses that women who have had their bodies taken against their will due to the wickedness of men. The number of women who have been murdered by serial killers thru out time is astounding. There will truly be some men who have to answer to an angry God who had this done to His daughters. That being said, it does not negate the system of family government that God authored for us. The wickedness of people does not and never does make what God instituted as invalid.

On the same token, did you know that the vast majority of children being murdered in childhood are from their own mothers instead of their fathers? You can pawn it off on mental illness or whatever, but the fact remains, more mothers kill their own kids than fathers do. That does not mean that all women are a danger to their children. The same way that all men are not rapists, abusers, or walking out on their families. Unfortunately, because of the wickedness of some men, all men are accused of the same crimes, at least according to feminism.

Last of all, although women will one day be priestesses, it does not infer that they will hold priesthood. Rather, it connotes that they will be the wife of a priest. If you remember the promise given in the endowment is subtly different than the one given to men. Where men will be "kings and priests to rule and reign" women are promised to be "queens and priestesses unto your husband". Add to that, that during the endowment and temple work done for the dead, women are not ordained to any priesthood nor have they ever been ordained. This shows that they do not need it in the heavens because they cannot have it, it's not their design, anymore than it is a man's design to bear children. We were made different to compliment each other. This in no way demeans women as they are essential to the plan of salvation to work. Again, feminism would seek to erase these divine distinctions that make both genders beautiful and created to be a part of a whole. For neither Male nor female is complete before God without the other.

[Rick Grimes]

PS, the majority of divorces are filed by women. This indicates that they are the ones quitting in greater numbers than men are. Add to that, both genders are choosing to cohabitate instead of marry and Satan is truly winning this war on families because he has destroyed it before they can even form, and if they do, divorce is a nice escape whenever any problems arise.

[Sarah]

Quotes from nice talks given by GAs do not at all indicate doctrine. True doctrine lines up with the established words in the standard works. The GAs know their audience and will tailor their words to be acceptable and pleasing by their audience. I happen to think very highly of Pres. Faust and do believe his talk is laden with good doctrine. However, I think some feminists are taking things out of context and reading too much into talks and infer that priesthood will be eventually bestowed to them. That man will not always be "ruling over them". They mistake the words "ruling" and "presiding". In our current free society, we infer "rule" with tyranny and unrighteousness. However, true priesthood holders do not lead this way. If we can agree that a man, although imperfect, but worthy to bear the priesthood, should preside over his family, then we are not far from the Kingdom of Heaven. The government of heaven is through the priesthood. Women will benefit from it and will resplendently rule with their husbands, but the government and authority will always be centered on righteous priesthood. Those that think otherwise are denying God's instruction to our first parents. Changes to the temple oaths due to this unrighteous and prideful demand by feminists do not alter the decree that men should lead in the home.

Those that point to abuse as being reasons why all patriarchy is wrong and should be avoided, are using poor examples to judge the entire God given system. I repeat, it is a God given system to how a family unit should be. Feminism robs women of their husbands and children of their fathers, by emasculating and minimizing the husband and the divine role he plays in the governance of the family. We are already seeing the downfall of the family unit because of this breakdown. Single parent households (only a mom) see children with a higher number of issues with the law, teenage promiscuity, teenage pregnancy, increased odds of childhood mortality, increased odds of childhood molestation,etc... (the last two due to single moms bringing their boyfriends around their kids that are either a good used or molested by them) Feminism, although useful in spreading awareness of abuse and tyranny, has done all the good that it was capable of doing and is now actively seeking to destroy the family by targeting anything masculine and patriarchal. The proclamation to the world confirms this and warns nations of calamities and destruction if these God given instructions are not adhered to.

Just because God has given a system of laws and governance doesn't mean it is the ideal. We don't live the Law of Moses anymore, we know that Enoch's people live a different system than we do. We know that the marriage system can include plurality. So God's systems are given in stages and be different at different times. I'm totally fine with living within our current system of men having authority to preside here and now, allowing men to lead, and learn from it. They need that to be tested and to grow. But if they don't learn from it and make a mess of leading their families, then there's no harm in reassuring women that they do not have to endure this type of system - where men decide everything - forever. Do you not believe that women will some day be Priestesses? Does that not infer that we will someday hold and exercise priesthood authority?

The wickedness of men has had a much larger impact on families than women demanding equal rights. If men were righteous and kind and fair leaders, we would not have feminism. Single moms are created how? Men leaving them on their own. How is this women's fault? Where are the Dads? Yes there are lots of women who sleep around, but where are the Fathers? Where is the leadership and commitment to Fatherhood?

Sarah,
I dont disagree with you on the fact that there has been much wickedness and abuse from men towards women. It is a crime against nature the abuses that women who have had their bodies taken against their will due to the wickedness of men. The number of women who have been murdered by serial killers thru out time is astounding. There will truly be some men who have to answer to an angry God who had this done to His daughters. That being said, it does not negate the system of family government that God authored for us. The wickedness of people does not and never does make what God instituted as invalid.

On the same token, did you know that the vast majority of children being murdered in childhood are from their own mothers instead of their fathers? You can pawn it off on mental illness or whatever, but the fact remains, more mothers kill their own kids than fathers do. That does not mean that all women are a danger to their children. The same way that all men are not rapists, abusers, or walking out on their families. Unfortunately, because of the wickedness of some men, all men are accused of the same crimes, at least according to feminism.

Last of all, although women will one day be priestesses, it does not infer that they will hold priesthood. Rather, it connotes that they will be the wife of a priest. If you remember the promise given in the endowment is subtly different than the one given to men. Where men will be "kings and priests to rule and reign" women are promised to be "queens and priestesses unto your husband". Add to that, that during the endowment and temple work done for the dead, women are not ordained to any priesthood nor have they ever been ordained. This shows that they do not need it in the heavens because they cannot have it, it's not their design, anymore than it is a man's design to bear children. We were made different to compliment each other. This in no way demeans women as they are essential to the plan of salvation to work. Again, feminism would seek to erase these divine distinctions that make both genders beautiful and created to be a part of a whole. For neither Male nor female is complete before God without the other.

So a priestess by your definition is the wife of a priest? I guess I am already a priestess then because I am married to a high priest.

I remember the old language, but husband and wife will both rule and reign in the house of Israel, together. It is possible to rule together and not have one above another. It is possible for all to be ONE. The traditional system which is patriarchal does not stress the importance of oneness, it stresses the importance of obedience of one person to another. What men are to learn as the ones who preside is that the one that is greatest should be the servant. The one that is greatest should make sure everyone is one and united in feeling and purpose and united under God. So I am not arguing against the system as you seem to think, I'm simply pointing out that there are many statements indicating that God and his servants recognize the weaknesses of our current system, in that it has been a curse for women because of man's weakness in wanting to literally rule over her rather than help and lift her up, that someday that curse will be lifted, and woman can look forward to equality and not this huge imbalance of power.

Sec. 132
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

I look at all these promised blessings and only see equality here. We are both gods equal in power and authority. We have "all power" together. No mention of the man having more than his wife.

[Sarah]

PS, the majority of divorces are filed by women. This indicates that they are the ones quitting in greater numbers than men are. Add to that, both genders are choosing to cohabitate instead of marry and Satan is truly winning this war on families because he has destroyed it before they can even form, and if they do, divorce is a nice escape whenever any problems arise.

Of course they are, it shows that the women are unhappy with the marriage. More men abuse women and children more than men. More men pick up an addiction to one thing or another. It's because men are more likely to go off the deep end. Lot's of messed up women as well, but not as many as men.

[Rick Grimes]

Sarah, I think women will absolutely be exalted and will indeed be goddesses. However, the government and rule is not theirs. They rule through their husband. If what you say is true, and they are "co-rulers", why do we only pray to the Father? Please do not state "sexism" either because goddesses were worshipped in antiquity in numerous cultures. So it isnt about "we couldn't handle it" or such rot. Surely Christ would have spoken to us about having to pray to Heavenly mother since they are indeed co-equal in ruling in heaven?

You can believe what you will, it wont effect your salvation. However, please be wary of latching your belief system on feminism as it is not of God.

[NewEliza]

Sarah, I think women will absolutely be exalted and will indeed be goddesses. However, the government and rule is not theirs. They rule through their husband. If what you say is true, and they are "co-rulers", why do we only pray to the Father? Please do not state "sexism" either because goddesses were worshipped in antiquity in numerous cultures. So it isnt about "we couldn't handle it" or such rot. Surely Christ would have spoken to us about having to pray to Heavenly mother since they are indeed co-equal in ruling in heaven?

You can believe what you will, it wont effect your salvation. However, please be wary of latching your belief system on feminism as it is not of God.

I agree with you that the order is a patriarchal one.

I also like to think that just like on earth, the heavenly women are keepers of the home kingdom and the men go out and return.

[mahalanobis]

Well if we go from the scriptures and not a video from the temple, we see in Moses 3, that Adam was the only one whom received the commandment to not eat of the forbidden fruit, directly from God. Eve, had not yet been brought forth. We can deduce from Moses 4, that she received this information later from her husband, Adam (God's established pattern). Satan doesn't even try to tempt Adam, but goes straight to Eve. We can see in the Lord God's response to Adam and Eve, that Satan had gotten them outside His established pattern, as Adam was hearkening to his wife. God restores His set pattern before removing them from the Garden.

22 Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

23 And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

29 Therefore I, the Lord God, will send him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken;

30 For as I, the Lord God, liveth, even so my words cannot return void, for as they go forth out of my mouth they must be fulfilled.

31 So I drove out the man, and I placed at the east of the Garden of Eden, cherubim and a flaming sword, which turned every way to keep the way of the tree of life.

Hmm. I'd never noticed the pattern reversal that Satan manipulated them into. Speaks volumes about fallen human nature.

Thanks for sharing.