Area Authority (Seventy) said Job 38:7 was "sexist!"???

[pho·to·syn·the·sis]

I was recently at a special fireside for the youth in our stake. I took some of the YM from our congregation. During the presentation the Area Authority had them read Job 38:7. After one of the YW read it, he stated emphatically that the phrase "sons of God shouted for joy" was in fact sexist, and the writers of the bible texts were sometimes sexist. He stated it should read "daughters and sons of God". He mentioned the word sexist three times to the youth (ages 11-18) in regard to this scripture phrasing. This seemed off to me. Especially using the word sexist in this context. Have visiting authorities (seventies) used this language in your special meetings?

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Maybe the scripture is saying the girls sang and the boys shouted. My study of "Morning Stars" or reference of Venus deals with the feminine. Christ and Lucifer are referenced by the Morning Star. However, anciently and symbolically, the Morning Star was ascribed to the feminine/ female.

[Rick Grimes]

More Woke speech. I remember hearing that Eve was wiser than Adam and that she wasnt fooled at all by Satan, and that Adam "wisely followed" his wife's leadership and wisdom by partaking of the fruit. Nevermind the scriptures quote Eve stating that she was indeed "beguiled". The first step to reimagining a society is to re-write history so it conforms to the values and beliefs of whatever the controlling agenda is.

[Rick Grimes]

I have always understood the Morning Stars spoken about here, as the daughters of God.

[pho·to·syn·the·sis]

More Woke speech. I remember hearing that Eve was wiser than Adam and that she wasnt fooled at all by Satan, and that Adam "wisely followed" his wife's leadership and wisdom by partaking of the fruit. Nevermind the scriptures quote Eve stating that she was indeed "beguiled". The first step to reimagining a society is to re-write history so it conforms to the values and beliefs of whatever the controlling agenda is.

Crazy you brought this up. Because in a Bishop training meeting the night before, he said this very thing. I am paraphrasing. He said that Eve partaking of the fruit was a revelatory action. Meaning she received revelation from God and Adam followed. He then concluded with "she saved us". I am not making this up.

[mahalanobis]

If true, this is a very sad moment in church history - to throw the authors/writers of the scriptures under the bus without any truly conclusive evidence or knowledge of their hearts.

This is "philosophies of men, mingled with scriptures"... Oh wait, please excuse my sexist reference.

[mahalanobis]

The following is extremely minor compared to the above story (obviously), but this past Sunday a new couple spoke in sacrament meeting. The husband spoke second and did the whole "my wife has better things to say... My wife gives a better talk... Blah blah blah". I rolled my eyes and visibly shook my head in disappointment. It's just not funny any more. We, as a church, need to find a new joke. It's just gotten old.

If you want to "empower" your wife (to use the words the sisters have chosen lately), find a way to do it that isn't so public and virtue-signaling. And better yet, find a way to do it that doesn't put yourself down.

[DesertWonderer2]

This 70 is obviously an idiot.

[DesertWonderer2]

More Woke speech. I remember hearing that Eve was wiser than Adam and that she wasnt fooled at all by Satan, and that Adam "wisely followed" his wife's leadership and wisdom by partaking of the fruit. Nevermind the scriptures quote Eve stating that she was indeed "beguiled". The first step to reimagining a society is to re-write history so it conforms to the values and beliefs of whatever the controlling agenda is.

Crazy you brought this up. Because in a Bishop training meeting the night before, he said this very thing. I am paraphrasing. He said that Eve partaking of the fruit was a revelatory action. Meaning she received revelation from God and Adam followed. He then concluded with "she saved us". I am not making this up.

(face palm)

[Rick Grimes]

The following is extremely minor compared to the above story (obviously), but this past Sunday a new couple spoke in sacrament meeting. The husband spoke second and did the whole "my wife has better things to say... My wife gives a better talk... Blah blah blah". I rolled my eyes and visibly shook my head in disappointment. It's just not funny any more. We, as a church, need to find a new joke. It's just gotten old.

If you want to "empower" your wife (to use the words the sisters have chosen lately), find a way to do it that isn't so public and virtue-signaling. And better yet, find a way to do it that doesn't put yourself down.

It's a cliche at this point, honestly. I roll my eyes when I hear this self deprecating "humor" that is almost expected for us to say.

I think the root of this is feminism and leadership is doing everything they can to contain the rabid feminists within the church. This is a small token gesture but it is scripturally dishonest.

[Sarah]

The following is extremely minor compared to the above story (obviously), but this past Sunday a new couple spoke in sacrament meeting. The husband spoke second and did the whole "my wife has better things to say... My wife gives a better talk... Blah blah blah". I rolled my eyes and visibly shook my head in disappointment. It's just not funny any more. We, as a church, need to find a new joke. It's just gotten old.

If you want to "empower" your wife (to use the words the sisters have chosen lately), find a way to do it that isn't so public and virtue-signaling. And better yet, find a way to do it that doesn't put yourself down.

I think men who say things like this do so for different reasons, and it's not because they want to empower women. Some are doing so to acknowledge their own weakness or to excuse it. Some genuinely want to highlight the strengths of their partner. Others just want to act humble hoping that will impress. I've noticed women praising their husbands for certain things as well and it only bothers me if broad generalizations are made, like saying we know the women are so much more organized than the men for example. I don't like the stereotypes. But it sounds like in the case you described he was self deprecating, to acknowledge that he was the weaker speaker.

[Believing Joseph]

Maybe the scripture is saying the girls sang and the boys shouted. My study of "Morning Stars" or reference of Venus deals with the feminine. Christ and Lucifer are referenced by the Morning Star. However, anciently and symbolically, the Morning Star was ascribed to the feminine/ female.

That man is making mountains out of mole hills.

Sons of God = בני אלהימ = benai Elohim

Hebrew is just like most languages in that the masculine gender is unmarked, i.e. the same word means children or sons depending on the context. The use of sons here is purely a translator's preference. The phrases children of Israel and children of men also use benai in the Hebrew.

[mahalanobis]

The following is extremely minor compared to the above story (obviously), but this past Sunday a new couple spoke in sacrament meeting. The husband spoke second and did the whole "my wife has better things to say... My wife gives a better talk... Blah blah blah". I rolled my eyes and visibly shook my head in disappointment. It's just not funny any more. We, as a church, need to find a new joke. It's just gotten old.

If you want to "empower" your wife (to use the words the sisters have chosen lately), find a way to do it that isn't so public and virtue-signaling. And better yet, find a way to do it that doesn't put yourself down.

It's a cliche at this point, honestly. I roll my eyes when I hear this self deprecating "humor" that is almost expected for us to say.

I think the root of this is feminism and leadership is doing everything they can to contain the rabid feminists within the church. This is a small token gesture but it is scripturally dishonest.

I once had a bishop who, when we moved into the ward, sat us both down and asked me why I loved my wife. Of course I love her, but this was obviously a test (a test that he didn't extend to her, only to me). I gave a sincere answer, but I didn't tear up and I didn't sell it enough. I opted out of the theatrics and drama.

So I got overlooked in the ward.

Until a year later when I had a much better interview (a temple recommend interview) where we had a deep discussion. He suddenly realized that I take the gospel and covenants seriously with a sincere, albeit imperfect testimony. After that interview I was suddenly extended callings etc.

[Sarah]

More Woke speech. I remember hearing that Eve was wiser than Adam and that she wasnt fooled at all by Satan, and that Adam "wisely followed" his wife's leadership and wisdom by partaking of the fruit. Nevermind the scriptures quote Eve stating that she was indeed "beguiled". The first step to reimagining a society is to re-write history so it conforms to the values and beliefs of whatever the controlling agenda is.

Crazy you brought this up. Because in a Bishop training meeting the night before, he said this very thing. I am paraphrasing. He said that Eve partaking of the fruit was a revelatory action. Meaning she received revelation from God and Adam followed. He then concluded with "she saved us". I am not making this up.

I don't know about her receiving revelation but if this scripture is true (what Eve says) than she really did save us from being damned.
"“Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.”

President Eyring said this:
"For instance, it was Eve who received the knowledge that Adam needed to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge for them to keep all of God’s commandments and to form a family. I do not know why it came to Eve first, but Adam and Eve were perfectly united when the knowledge was poured out on Adam.

President Faust said this:
We all owe a great debt of gratitude to Eve. In the Garden of Eden, she and Adam were instructed not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. However, they were also reminded, “Thou mayest choose for thyself.”9 The choice was really between a continuation of their comfortable existence in Eden, where they would never progress, or a momentous exit into mortality with its opposites: pain, trials, and physical death in contrast to joy, growth, and the potential for eternal life. In contemplating this choice, we are told, “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, … and a tree to be desired to make her wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and also gave unto her husband with her, and he did eat.”10 And thus began their earthly probation and parenthood.
After the choice was made, Adam voiced this grateful expression: “Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.”

President Nelson said this:
“We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise.”

[mahalanobis]

More Woke speech. I remember hearing that Eve was wiser than Adam and that she wasnt fooled at all by Satan, and that Adam "wisely followed" his wife's leadership and wisdom by partaking of the fruit. Nevermind the scriptures quote Eve stating that she was indeed "beguiled". The first step to reimagining a society is to re-write history so it conforms to the values and beliefs of whatever the controlling agenda is.

Crazy you brought this up. Because in a Bishop training meeting the night before, he said this very thing. I am paraphrasing. He said that Eve partaking of the fruit was a revelatory action. Meaning she received revelation from God and Adam followed. He then concluded with "she saved us". I am not making this up.

I don't know about her receiving revelation but if this scripture is true (what Eve says) than she really did save us from being damned.
"“Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.”

President Eyring said this:
"For instance, it was Eve who received the knowledge that Adam needed to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge for them to keep all of God’s commandments and to form a family. I do not know why it came to Eve first, but Adam and Eve were perfectly united when the knowledge was poured out on Adam.

President Faust said this:
We all owe a great debt of gratitude to Eve. In the Garden of Eden, she and Adam were instructed not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. However, they were also reminded, “Thou mayest choose for thyself.”9 The choice was really between a continuation of their comfortable existence in Eden, where they would never progress, or a momentous exit into mortality with its opposites: pain, trials, and physical death in contrast to joy, growth, and the potential for eternal life. In contemplating this choice, we are told, “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, … and a tree to be desired to make her wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and also gave unto her husband with her, and he did eat.”10 And thus began their earthly probation and parenthood.
After the choice was made, Adam voiced this grateful expression: “Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.”

President Nelson said this:
“We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise.”

I think this is valid.

But the original overarching point is that we, for some reason, feel a need to apologise for wordings of things in the scriptures for fear of offending.

Rather than nitpicking the non-PC phrasing to relate to everyone in the audience, he should have focused on the core doctrine to relate to everyone in the audience.

[Sarah]

More Woke speech. I remember hearing that Eve was wiser than Adam and that she wasnt fooled at all by Satan, and that Adam "wisely followed" his wife's leadership and wisdom by partaking of the fruit. Nevermind the scriptures quote Eve stating that she was indeed "beguiled". The first step to reimagining a society is to re-write history so it conforms to the values and beliefs of whatever the controlling agenda is.

Crazy you brought this up. Because in a Bishop training meeting the night before, he said this very thing. I am paraphrasing. He said that Eve partaking of the fruit was a revelatory action. Meaning she received revelation from God and Adam followed. He then concluded with "she saved us". I am not making this up.

I don't know about her receiving revelation but if this scripture is true (what Eve says) than she really did save us from being damned.
"“Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.”

President Eyring said this:
"For instance, it was Eve who received the knowledge that Adam needed to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge for them to keep all of God’s commandments and to form a family. I do not know why it came to Eve first, but Adam and Eve were perfectly united when the knowledge was poured out on Adam.

President Faust said this:
We all owe a great debt of gratitude to Eve. In the Garden of Eden, she and Adam were instructed not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. However, they were also reminded, “Thou mayest choose for thyself.”9 The choice was really between a continuation of their comfortable existence in Eden, where they would never progress, or a momentous exit into mortality with its opposites: pain, trials, and physical death in contrast to joy, growth, and the potential for eternal life. In contemplating this choice, we are told, “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, … and a tree to be desired to make her wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and also gave unto her husband with her, and he did eat.”10 And thus began their earthly probation and parenthood.
After the choice was made, Adam voiced this grateful expression: “Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.”

President Nelson said this:
“We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise.”

I think this is valid.

But the original overarching point is that we, for some reason, feel a need to apologise for wordings of things in the scriptures for fear of offending.

Rather than nitpicking the non-PC phrasing to relate to everyone in the audience, he should have focused on the core doctrine to relate to everyone in the audience.

Yeah, I don't agree with what the seventy in the OP was saying or trying to do. I think stuff like that just causes more division and hard feelings. More frequently you'll hear the brethren say stuff like, "that was the custom of the day" to speak like that for instance.

But speaking again of self-deprecating, the most self-deprecating person I know is an older woman who constantly says that she is "too dumb" to figure stuff out that traditionally her husband always did. She, like many women who are used to very defined roles will not even try to do traditional man tasks because they've been taught their whole lives that men are better at doing certain things like math. Sometimes I feel it is an excuse for not even trying.

[Rick Grimes]

[Rick Grimes]

This is precisely the point.^ Leadership has redefined the narrative of the fall pleasing to feminists out there. Both the old and the New testament state that Eve was indeed beguiled or tricked. There is no wisdom in being tricked. It may be lucky, but not wisdom. Best as I can tell the only one who actually displayed true wisdom, loyalty, and compassion was Adam. He was not beguiled, but knowingly fell because he didnt want to let his wife be taken from him. He knew that he was disobeying Father by doing so, but such was his love and commitment to his wife.

The scripture quoted out of Moses is said after the events of being cast out had already happened. Eve is merely saying something out loud that they both must have realized. They already had children and had experienced both joy and sorrow. Eve stating this years after the event had already taken place does not make her "wiser" than Adam. Again, this is not to cut down our glorious mother Eve, but only to keep things honest. She was deceived. And boy are we glad she was because it helped get this world going! However, to make reference that she was somehow wiser than Adam is just not scripturally true.

[Davka]

This is precisely the point.^ Leadership has redefined the narrative of the fall pleasing to feminists out there. Both the old and the New testament state that Eve was indeed beguiled or tricked. There is no wisdom in being tricked. It may be lucky, but not wisdom. Best as I can tell the only one who actually displayed true wisdom, loyalty, and compassion was Adam. He was not beguiled, but knowingly fell because he didnt want to let his wife be taken from him. He knew that he was disobeying Father by doing so, but such was his love and commitment to his wife.

The scripture quoted out of Moses is said after the events of being cast out had already happened. Eve is merely saying something out loud that they both must have realized. They already had children and had experienced both joy and sorrow. Eve stating this years after the event had already taken place does not make her "wiser" than Adam. Again, this is not to cut down our glorious mother Eve, but only to keep things honest. She was deceived. And boy are we glad she was because it helped get this world going! However, to make reference that she was somehow wiser than Adam is just not scripturally true.

“Tricked” is different than “tempted.”

So the question is...what did Eve *think* she was doing?

Women have easily borne their share of the curses of the fall, so I don’t think she (or her daughters) are getting away Scott free with anything.

[mahalanobis]

Crazy you brought this up. Because in a Bishop training meeting the night before, he said this very thing. I am paraphrasing. He said that Eve partaking of the fruit was a revelatory action. Meaning she received revelation from God and Adam followed. He then concluded with "she saved us". I am not making this up.

I don't know about her receiving revelation but if this scripture is true (what Eve says) than she really did save us from being damned.
"“Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.”

President Eyring said this:
"For instance, it was Eve who received the knowledge that Adam needed to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge for them to keep all of God’s commandments and to form a family. I do not know why it came to Eve first, but Adam and Eve were perfectly united when the knowledge was poured out on Adam.

President Faust said this:
We all owe a great debt of gratitude to Eve. In the Garden of Eden, she and Adam were instructed not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. However, they were also reminded, “Thou mayest choose for thyself.”9 The choice was really between a continuation of their comfortable existence in Eden, where they would never progress, or a momentous exit into mortality with its opposites: pain, trials, and physical death in contrast to joy, growth, and the potential for eternal life. In contemplating this choice, we are told, “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, … and a tree to be desired to make her wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and also gave unto her husband with her, and he did eat.”10 And thus began their earthly probation and parenthood.
After the choice was made, Adam voiced this grateful expression: “Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.”

President Nelson said this:
“We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise.”

I think this is valid.

But the original overarching point is that we, for some reason, feel a need to apologise for wordings of things in the scriptures for fear of offending.

Rather than nitpicking the non-PC phrasing to relate to everyone in the audience, he should have focused on the core doctrine to relate to everyone in the audience.

Yeah, I don't agree with what the seventy in the OP was saying or trying to do. I think stuff like that just causes more division and hard feelings. More frequently you'll hear the brethren say stuff like, "that was the custom of the day" to speak like that for instance.

But speaking again of self-deprecating, the most self-deprecating person I know is an older woman who constantly says that she is "too dumb" to figure stuff out that traditionally her husband always did. She, like many women who are used to very defined roles will not even try to do traditional man tasks because they've been taught their whole lives that men are better at doing certain things like math. Sometimes I feel it is an excuse for not even trying.

The case you give of a person thinking they are too dumb and can't figure out a traditionally masculine task - that's a valid problem among some circles of people. But I think the way the world goes about solving such problems is all wrong.

[mahalanobis]

This is precisely the point.^ Leadership has redefined the narrative of the fall pleasing to feminists out there. Both the old and the New testament state that Eve was indeed beguiled or tricked. There is no wisdom in being tricked. It may be lucky, but not wisdom. Best as I can tell the only one who actually displayed true wisdom, loyalty, and compassion was Adam. He was not beguiled, but knowingly fell because he didnt want to let his wife be taken from him. He knew that he was disobeying Father by doing so, but such was his love and commitment to his wife.

The scripture quoted out of Moses is said after the events of being cast out had already happened. Eve is merely saying something out loud that they both must have realized. They already had children and had experienced both joy and sorrow. Eve stating this years after the event had already taken place does not make her "wiser" than Adam. Again, this is not to cut down our glorious mother Eve, but only to keep things honest. She was deceived. And boy are we glad she was because it helped get this world going! However, to make reference that she was somehow wiser than Adam is just not scripturally true.

Nicely summarized. Come speak in my ward please.

And these virtues of Adam don't make me feel proud to be male. I can't take any credit for what he did, just like I won't be judged for Adam's transgression. (Article of faith)

Just like women shouldn't feel empowered or disempowered by this story.

For people who get all offended and 'disempowered' over the scripture wording need a good solid dose of maturity, in my opinion. And if you're still feeling down, treasure up the words of Christ. We're all fallen. He lifts us up.

[Juliet]

This is precisely the point.^ Leadership has redefined the narrative of the fall pleasing to feminists out there. Both the old and the New testament state that Eve was indeed beguiled or tricked. There is no wisdom in being tricked. It may be lucky, but not wisdom. Best as I can tell the only one who actually displayed true wisdom, loyalty, and compassion was Adam. He was not beguiled, but knowingly fell because he didnt want to let his wife be taken from him. He knew that he was disobeying Father by doing so, but such was his love and commitment to his wife.

The scripture quoted out of Moses is said after the events of being cast out had already happened. Eve is merely saying something out loud that they both must have realized. They already had children and had experienced both joy and sorrow. Eve stating this years after the event had already taken place does not make her "wiser" than Adam. Again, this is not to cut down our glorious mother Eve, but only to keep things honest. She was deceived. And boy are we glad she was because it helped get this world going! However, to make reference that she was somehow wiser than Adam is just not scripturally true.

“Tricked” is different than “tempted.”

So the question is...what did Eve *think* she was doing?

Women have easily borne their share of the curses of the fall, so I don’t think she (or her daughters) are getting away Scott free with anything.

I think Eve was tricked into thinking God's love was always available to her even if she disobeyed God. A trick many people continue to fall for, thinking they can get into debt or steal people's labor, or shoot up their kids with chemicals or whatever else goes against the laws of nature and causes death and suffering.

But it's still tricky, because though there is separation and death, hasn't God done His part to prove the separation and death isn't on His end but our own? Maybe you can't fall away from God's grace unless you believe you can? And you would only believe that you can if you disobeyed God...

Pretty tricky.

Eve was tricked long ago but we still struggle with the answers. As long as we can't decide what we believe we will have to continue to use each other as guinea pigs to experiment on whether we believe love actually works full time or not.

[ori]

More Woke speech. I remember hearing that Eve was wiser than Adam and that she wasnt fooled at all by Satan, and that Adam "wisely followed" his wife's leadership and wisdom by partaking of the fruit. Nevermind the scriptures quote Eve stating that she was indeed "beguiled". The first step to reimagining a society is to re-write history so it conforms to the values and beliefs of whatever the controlling agenda is.

Crazy you brought this up. Because in a Bishop training meeting the night before, he said this very thing. I am paraphrasing. He said that Eve partaking of the fruit was a revelatory action. Meaning she received revelation from God and Adam followed. He then concluded with "she saved us". I am not making this up.

This is probably because that’s how they depicted the event in the temple in the versions before the “slideshow” ones. And I personally dislike how it was depicted because it’s not scriptural.

[Alexander]

If true, this is a very sad moment in church history - to throw the authors/writers of the scriptures under the bus without any truly conclusive evidence or knowledge of their hearts.

This is "philosophies of men, mingled with scriptures"... Oh wait, please excuse my sexist reference.

As I understand it, it was the compilers and revisers of the Bible who took out the feminine parts and didn’t include books of prophetesses, not the writers.

[ori]

President Nelson said this:
“We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise.”

Hmm. So is he saying that even though Eve didn’t have knowledge yet (before eating the fruit she had no knowledge, remember?), she somehow had great wisdom?? That does not make sense to me. Being beguiled (her phrasing) doesn’t sound like a wise choice being made to me. Could it be both a wise choice and a beguiled one at the same time? That seems like a stretch.

[mahalanobis]

If true, this is a very sad moment in church history - to throw the authors/writers of the scriptures under the bus without any truly conclusive evidence or knowledge of their hearts.

This is "philosophies of men, mingled with scriptures"... Oh wait, please excuse my sexist reference.

As I understand it, it was the compilers and revisers of the Bible who took out the feminine parts and didn’t include books of prophetesses, not the writers.

If that's the case, then that's how we should phrase it. Rather than throwing around labels.