LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 11:50 am**

I believe I have reached my boredom breaking point at church. I know people will say "you get out what you put into it," but I am tired of the same pablum lesson for the umpteenth time. General Conference talks are just repeats and old quotes and are usually pretty lame. I am repeatedly told to pay my tithing but my chapel is falling apart and the roof is leaking today. So I asked myself "what am I getting out of the church that is worth my time and effort?" The only answer is "not much." I am separating the gospel and the church. I can sit at home and do my own studying and be much more content than sitting in an elders quorum where they spend the first 25 minutes yapping about some ghetto thug who can throw a ball in a hoop. I have put 40 plus years into the church and today I believe I am done.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:10 pm**

I think enduring to the end is much easier said than done.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:10 pm**

For most of us, one of the important functions of the church is that it gives us a community in which to serve one another. For example, I don't have any old people in my life, my grandparents are all dead. But I have a widow among my ministering families. She is alone and needs contact. I can do that. Similarly, I don't have small kids in my life. But in church I can help parents with kids. There are other venues that could give me similar opportunities to serve and interact with people with different backgrounds. But for me it is the church. Attending the boring weekly meetings is necessary if I wish to stay a member of that community.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:11 pm**

I'm sorry you're feeling so frustrated, Aprhys.

My grandmother, one of the wisest and most Christlike people I have ever known, gave me some advice many years ago that I go back to when I am feeling the way you are today. SI was asking questions similar to yours -- "Why do I bother?" "I'm getting nothing out of it." "Is this really the best use of my time?" She told me that she recognized at some point in her life that church activity and attendance wasn't to benefit her. It was to lift up others. She didn't attend church on Sundays, she said, for her own edification, but with an attitude of seeking out someone who needed her attention, love, support, help with children, a friend to sit next to, or her input in a Sunday School lesson.

Over the years, I have tried to adopt this attitude...that I may not "get anything" out of church for myself, but if I am open to what the Spirit is telling me about how I can serve, I will be able to help someone, even in a small way. Exercising these muscles and forcing myself to look outside of myself and be more in tune with what the Lord would have me do (rather than sit and listen reverently) is all I often get out of church activity, but it is worth it.

I don't mean this in any way to say you aren't doing these things -- I'm sure you are. I only share because it has helped me to focus more on serving and less on my own personal growth. Ironically, I have grown more by spending my efforts this way than by "reverently" listening to the (same old) relief society lesson.

I have also considered many times that Jesus was still an "active" member of his synagogue and the Jewish Law up to the time he began his ministry. I doubt there was a whole lot for him to gain from the shallow understanding of the law and the prideful attitudes of those he attended with, but it seems he still participated.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:14 pm**

Aprhys wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 11:50 amI know people will say "you get out what you put into it,"

This type of comment (i.e. the ones who will say "you get out what you put into it") seems to come most often from extroverts who don't understand introverts.

Aprhys wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 11:50 amI believe I have reached my boredom breaking point at church... I am tired of the same pablum lesson for the umpteenth time. ... I am separating the gospel and the church. I can sit at home and do my own studying and be much more content than sitting in an elders quorum where they spend the first 25 minutes yapping about some ghetto thug who can throw a ball in a hoop.

I can relate. As others have mentioned: community. You just need to decide if there are any community-related reasons for continuing to attend. There's no one right answer to how you should apply the Gospel in your life.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:14 pm**

Davka wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:11 pm I have also considered many times that Jesus was still an "active" member of his synagogue and the Jewish Law up to the time he began his ministry. I doubt there was a whole lot for him to gain from the shallow understanding of the law and the prideful attitudes of those he attended with, but it seems he still participated.

Thanks, I have never thought that.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:21 pm**

Aprhys wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 11:50 am I believe I have reached my boredom breaking point at church. I know people will say "you get out what you put into it," but I am tired of the same pablum lesson for the umpteenth time. General Conference talks are just repeats and old quotes and are usually pretty lame. I am repeatedly told to pay my tithing but my chapel is falling apart and the roof is leaking today. So I asked myself "what am I getting out of the church that is worth my time and effort?" The only answer is "not much." I am separating the gospel and the church. I can sit at home and do my own studying and be much more content than sitting in an elders quorum where they spend the first 25 minutes yapping about some ghetto thug who can throw a ball in a hoop. I have put 40 plus years into the church and today I believe I am done.

Why would someone who sees their people's shortcomings....leave their brothers to their shortcomings?

You go out into the world to take others back home.

If your chapel is full of lost sheep...that is where you are commanded to go.

11Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
--------------
Your home is the ninety and nine

I'm not just saying this to you, brother...I'm saying this to me too. I feel you. I don't fit in at all. I don't like Mormon culture. I'm trying to learn to do this too

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:24 pm**

Brother B. wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:14 pm
Aprhys wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 11:50 amI know people will say "you get out what you put into it,"
This type of comment seems to come most often from extroverts who don't understand introverts.

Aprhys wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 11:50 amI believe I have reached my boredom breaking point at church... I am tired of the same pablum lesson for the umpteenth time. ... I am separating the gospel and the church. I can sit at home and do my own studying and be much more content than sitting in an elders quorum where they spend the first 25 minutes yapping about some ghetto thug who can throw a ball in a hoop.
I can relate. As others have mentioned: community. You just need to decide if there are any community-related reasons for continuing to attend. There's no one right answer to how you should apply the Gospel in your life.

Great advice from the Creator of the forum. However, church is much more comfortable for extroverts - I completely understand the OP.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:26 pm**

Obrien wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:24 pm
Brother B. wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:14 pm
Aprhys wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 11:50 amI know people will say "you get out what you put into it,"
This type of comment seems to come most often from extroverts who don't understand introverts.

Aprhys wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 11:50 amI believe I have reached my boredom breaking point at church... I am tired of the same pablum lesson for the umpteenth time. ... I am separating the gospel and the church. I can sit at home and do my own studying and be much more content than sitting in an elders quorum where they spend the first 25 minutes yapping about some ghetto thug who can throw a ball in a hoop.
I can relate. As others have mentioned: community. You just need to decide if there are any community-related reasons for continuing to attend. There's no one right answer to how you should apply the Gospel in your life.
Great advice from the Creator of the forum. However, church is much more comfortable for extroverts - I completely understand the OP.

I think you are very right. I'm an "introverted extrovert," but my husband is a full blown introvert.

Your observation fits our situation well.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:28 pm**

inho wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:14 pm
Davka wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:11 pm I have also considered many times that Jesus was still an "active" member of his synagogue and the Jewish Law up to the time he began his ministry. I doubt there was a whole lot for him to gain from the shallow understanding of the law and the prideful attitudes of those he attended with, but it seems he still participated.
Thanks, I have never thought that.

Based on the NT, it appears Jesus' agenda at church was to teach truth, offer an alternative perspective, and break false paradigms. I suspect he'd be doing the same at LDSCo, and he'd also be somewhat shunned when he called us out for our untrue sacred cows.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:29 pm**

Obrien wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:24 pmHowever, church is much more comfortable for extroverts - I completely understand the OP.

That's what I was implying. As an introvert, I relate to the OP, and I also don't find much value in going to Church because of that.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:31 pm**

Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:10 pm I think enduring to the end is much easier said than done.

What is your definition of endure to the end?
(This isn't to start a debate, I am genuinely curious as I've seen so many varying definitions for this common phrase.)

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:34 pm**

Brother B. wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:29 pm
Obrien wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:24 pmHowever, church is much more comfortable for extroverts - I completely understand the OP.
That's what I was implying. As an introvert, I relate to the OP, and I also don't find much value in going to Church because of that.

Amen Creator.
I go because my kids like the social aspects of church.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:36 pm**

Hosh4710 wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:31 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:10 pm I think enduring to the end is much easier said than done.
What is your definition of endure to the end?
(This isn't to start a debate, I am genuinely curious as I've seen so many varying definitions for this common phrase.)

The closing prayer at every general conference...

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:42 pm**

I agree with a lot stated here, except for one very important aspect.... Christ commanded us to meet together and to bear each others burdens. This sounds like church attendance. So regardless of what benefit you may or may not be recieving, it was a commandment for us to attend these (dull) meetings.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 12:53 pm**

Aprhys wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 11:50 am I believe I have reached my boredom breaking point at church. I know people will say "you get out what you put into it," but I am tired of the same pablum lesson for the umpteenth time. General Conference talks are just repeats and old quotes and are usually pretty lame. I am repeatedly told to pay my tithing but my chapel is falling apart and the roof is leaking today. So I asked myself "what am I getting out of the church that is worth my time and effort?" The only answer is "not much." I am separating the gospel and the church. I can sit at home and do my own studying and be much more content than sitting in an elders quorum where they spend the first 25 minutes yapping about some ghetto thug who can throw a ball in a hoop. I have put 40 plus years into the church and today I believe I am done.

God bless brother, make sure to continually grow closer to Christ, don’t let that fade!

I hope you get some good study sessions out of that time. I’d be happy to give you ideas from time to time if you find yourself having a hard time finding topic to study Sunday morning .

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 1:04 pm**

Obrien wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:36 pm
Hosh4710 wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:31 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:10 pm I think enduring to the end is much easier said than done.
What is your definition of endure to the end?
(This isn't to start a debate, I am genuinely curious as I've seen so many varying definitions for this common phrase.)
The closing prayer at every general conference...

Bwahahahaha

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 1:05 pm**

I can relate to the OP as well.

As Brother B pointed out, it may just be an introvert/extrovert thing.

Although I am completely inactive, I still pay tithes and offerings, I am not anti. I feel the church is led by good but flawed men. I believe they are led by the Savior. I believe that they are guiding many towards Christ.

Like the OP though, I have felt for some time that I was neither being helped nor helping anyone else. I wish my fellow members well, am open to respectful discussion any time, and hope all can find their path.

However, seeing a solid majority of members posting online in support of war is depressing. And yes, 30 years ago I would have been right there in the thick of it. And it has been a slow painful process that isn't finished yet. I'm not quite a full on pacifist, but I sincerely believe in taking every reasonable step to avoid war, and certainly not committing the provocations that we as a nation have for decades. And seeing the willfull blindness of most in this regard, and also the reviling, and other nasty to unfriendly responses to my anti-war message makes me very sorrowful and also feel that I am not going to get thru to anyone. It's an individual process, not a congregational one. (I think there is some quote by a famous psychologist that people go mad in multitudes but only become sane one at a time. Quite a profound and I believe accurate insight.)

I do feel the need of a group of like minded people that I can have good, respectful, and deep discussions with. Something like the group C.S. Lewis belonged to, The Inklings. Not to be snobby or exclusive, in fact, I think the more the merrier. But I want to associate with people REALLY interested in trying to establish Zion, and not have the "all is well in Zion" attitude. It almost feels that I want to establish another religion, but I say almost because in many ways, the last two things this world needs is another church and another political party. (I'm torn though, because I also feel that all existing of both are insufficient.) President Nelson does kindle a spark of hope, and I am still engaged enough with COJCOLDS to keep an eye on what is happening there.

Love you all, may we all find our peace and path returning to the Savior.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 1:24 pm**

PickleRick wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 1:05 pm I can relate to the OP as well.

As Brother B pointed out, it may just be an introvert/extrovert thing.

Although I am completely inactive, I still pay tithes and offerings, I am not anti. I feel the church is led by good but flawed men. I believe they are led by the Savior. I believe that they are guiding many towards Christ.

Like the OP though, I have felt for some time that I was neither being helped nor helping anyone else. I wish my fellow members well, am open to respectful discussion any time, and hope all can find their path.

However, seeing a solid majority of members posting online in support of war is depressing. And yes, 30 years ago I would have been right there in the thick of it. And it has been a slow painful process that isn't finished yet. I'm not quite a full on pacifist, but I sincerely believe in taking every reasonable step to avoid war, and certainly not committing the provocations that we as a nation have for decades. And seeing the willfull blindness of most in this regard, and also the reviling, and other nasty to unfriendly responses to my anti-war message makes me very sorrowful and also feel that I am not going to get thru to anyone. It's an individual process, not a congregational one. (I think there is some quote by a famous psychologist that people go mad in multitudes but only become sane one at a time. Quite a profound and I believe accurate insight.)

I do feel the need of a group of like minded people that I can have good, respectful, and deep discussions with. Something like the group C.S. Lewis belonged to, The Inklings. Not to be snobby or exclusive, in fact, I think the more the merrier. But I want to associate with people REALLY interested in trying to establish Zion, and not have the "all is well in Zion" attitude. It almost feels that I want to establish another religion, but I say almost because in many ways, the last two things this world needs is another church and another political party. (I'm torn though, because I also feel that all existing of both are insufficient.) President Nelson does kindle a spark of hope, and I am still engaged enough with COJCOLDS to keep an eye on what is happening there.

Love you all, may we all find our peace and path returning to the Savior.

Had similar thoughts myself at times. I don't really like going to church, so half the time I just show up for the sacrament then leave right after the talks. Partaking of the sacrament is literally the only productive thing I've found for attending church on Sundays.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 1:54 pm**

Davka wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:26 pm

I'm an "introverted extrovert"...

Is that just another way of saying you're normal?
Like me saying I'm a lesbian in a man's body.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 2:13 pm**

Aprhys wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 11:50 am I believe I have reached my boredom breaking point at church. I know people will say "you get out what you put into it," but I am tired of the same pablum lesson for the umpteenth time. General Conference talks are just repeats and old quotes and are usually pretty lame. I am repeatedly told to pay my tithing but my chapel is falling apart and the roof is leaking today. So I asked myself "what am I getting out of the church that is worth my time and effort?" The only answer is "not much." I am separating the gospel and the church. I can sit at home and do my own studying and be much more content than sitting in an elders quorum where they spend the first 25 minutes yapping about some ghetto thug who can throw a ball in a hoop. I have put 40 plus years into the church and today I believe I am done.

I recommend this presentation to people in your situation. If you have never studied Fowler’s stages of faith ideas, this is a great crash course by a Seventh Day Adventist group (applicable to any faith though).

It’s about 2 hours but really great stuff, life-changing really. I’d pay attention to when they discuss mentors and mentoring because those are the parts that reminded me of your post.

http://oneclimbs.com/2015/08/13/audio-s ... n-paulien/

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 2:59 pm**

inho wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:10 pm For most of us, one of the important functions of the church is that it gives us a community in which to serve one another. For example, I don't have any old people in my life, my grandparents are all dead. But I have a widow among my ministering families. She is alone and needs contact. I can do that. Similarly, I don't have small kids in my life. But in church I can help parents with kids. There are other venues that could give me similar opportunities to serve and interact with people with different backgrounds. But for me it is the church. Attending the boring weekly meetings is necessary if I wish to stay a member of that community.

On the contrary. You are a member of the community where you live. There are people who have knocked on every single door of every house in their town.

Some of them may be politicians, but anyone can do that, and become a friend to everyone in town.

And if you and others did, perhpas the world and the community would be a better place.

Ministering need never be limited to people in your ward or in the church.
dc

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 3:04 pm**

Today was one of the best experiences I have had in Elders quorum. We went over Elder Oaks talk about the spirit world. Talked of hell and outer darkness being different. Talked about purifying our sins so we can prepare ourselves to meet Christ Christ in this life.

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 3:09 pm**

Rick Grimes wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 12:42 pm I agree with a lot stated here, except for one very important aspect.... Christ commanded us to meet together and to bear each others burdens. This sounds like church attendance. So regardless of what benefit you may or may not be recieving, it was a commandment for us to attend these (dull) meetings.

I agree, but I don't get that out of the dull meetings at all. I get that out of going over to someone's house and sitting down with them and listening to them.

I think that could be the case with some of the others.

But I have found that in my ward NO ONE is willing to do that, most particularly my home teaching companion (former).
dc

Posted: **January 12th, 2020, 3:11 pm**

The East Wind wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 3:04 pm Today was one of the best experiences I have had in Elders quorum. We went over Elder Oaks talk about the spirit world. Talked of hell and outer darkness being different. Talked about purifying our sins so we can prepare ourselves to meet Christ Christ in this life.

Is this from April of last year? That was one amazing talk.

Just go to your bishop Arphys, ask to be the next speaker, and show people how it's done.

One of the problems in our culture, not just the church, is no one feels safe speaking about anything unless it is very bland.

It's like, everyone's originality has been taken out and replaced with a common core!

It's awful. Somehow we need to make conversation great again.

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