LDS Freedom Forum

TylerDurden wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 5:30 pm I mean if the church meeting thing doesn’t seem a good fit, that’s ok. The important thing is about coming to the lord. The program of the church (recently rebranded but was always supposed to be the same) is family oriented and church supported.

Glad you brought up "Branding & Re-Branding".
Looking at the Corporation of the Church it is obvious that the growth gained momentum after adopting the 1950's marketing tenants on how to grow a business. The whole "Branding" thing came a decade or two later and it was implemented in various ways from "Meet the Mormons" to the yellow shirts required to be worn by members during relief work at various disasters.

Of course the men who developed policy, rules and social mores at church HQ laid out a growth plan via missionary work.

Now it has run it's course. The old guard are passing on, and by the time the last board member called before 1990 passes on, the new guys will have instituted their vision (if they have a clue) of how to keep the business growth on track. I mean, if it wasn't for T.B. Monson being in the first presidency since 1985, various changes would have been quicker.

I'm starting to see President Nelson as something very unique. I'm even thinking his whole push to "de-centralize" the mormom church ward family cultural thing is really a way to wean softer members off the old guards' business plan, and have the members stand on their own two feet with their own personal relationship with the Savior. I applaud these efforts.

I've been taking my vitamins and can't wait for more changes promised by Pres. Nelson.
I just hope the palace guards don't slow him down with worldly arguments and rationalizations.

However, the preservation of personal power is such a strong motivator, that most people don't even realize they are steam rolling the softer whisperings of the Spirit.

I've examined my belief system, and the tenants of my faith, and am pretty confident any man won't dis-sway me from following the Lord.
I mean, look at the Catholic Church... They had Crusades, the Inquisition, lots and lots of man-made policy with failed egregious results, and they are still a viable religion with a lot more adherents than little 'ole us. Meaning, we Mormons better grow a thicker hide against the darts thrown against us.

So what if the history was sanitized and a specific (branded) party-line was proclaimed for the last fifty years. The First Vision is 200 years old. There is bound to be a lot of hiccups along the way.

Just hang on, and ignore those who haven't had the spiritual experiences with getting to know the Savior the way we mostly have had.
Endure faithful to the end.

TylerDurden wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 5:23 pm

Original_Intent wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 4:59 pm

TylerDurden wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 11:52 am

LDS Physician wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 10:59 am

Thanks. I have and do. The answer? The sacrament renews my baptismal covenants and I should listen to and follow the apostles and the prophet.

You can believe what you may, as can I. I’ve been told by the lord the sacrament is merely a symbol.

Same here. An important symbol, though.

Oh yes. A very important symbol

Yes, it's an important symbol... One that seems very little understood... And I suspect it isn't to "renew our covenants"...

Aprhys wrote: ↑January 12th, 2020, 11:50 am I believe I have reached my boredom breaking point at church. I know people will say "you get out what you put into it," but I am tired of the same pablum lesson for the umpteenth time. General Conference talks are just repeats and old quotes and are usually pretty lame. I am repeatedly told to pay my tithing but my chapel is falling apart and the roof is leaking today. So I asked myself "what am I getting out of the church that is worth my time and effort?" The only answer is "not much." I am separating the gospel and the church. I can sit at home and do my own studying and be much more content than sitting in an elders quorum where they spend the first 25 minutes yapping about some ghetto thug who can throw a ball in a hoop. I have put 40 plus years into the church and today I believe I am done.

I'm just putting in my time until the "unforgettable" April 2020 conference. It could be the abomination of desolation for all I know. Wouldn't want to have to go back to heaven with everyone all asking, "Wow! How did you feel to be there at this huge event? What was it like to witness it without knowing the beginning to the end?" and I'm like, "Oh, I must have missed that..." and they're all "What!? He said it would be unforgettable." and I'm like "they said a lot of things" *Blank stares from eons of relatives*

Or else maybe the church will come out with some doctrine (read: future policy) that will show that they have some modicum of truth or light and the church isn't completely lifeless yet.

Given the word choice of President Nelson, I feel like that conference is pretty much do-or-die.

Phantom wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 4:50 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 6:46 pm

Phantom wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 6:14 pm

The Airbender wrote: ↑January 13th, 2020, 7:44 pm

Which covenants, specifically?

Well, if you don't know the answer to that question then I guess you really are done. Peace.

I’d like to know what covenants you refer to as well.
I know of many references to covenants.
Which are most important - and what do they entail on a daily basis?

Nope, not going there. It is clear to me that the spirit of this thread reflects something entirely different than what is worthy of my further discussion within it. I believe what I would share would just be mocked and adversely debated. You all know where I'm going and you're ready to pounce.

Not having it.

Wise choice.

Phantom wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 4:50 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 6:46 pm

Phantom wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 6:14 pm

The Airbender wrote: ↑January 13th, 2020, 7:44 pm Which covenants, specifically?

Well, if you don't know the answer to that question then I guess you really are done. Peace.

I’d like to know what covenants you refer to as well.
I know of many references to covenants.
Which are most important - and what do they entail on a daily basis?

Nope, not going there. It is clear to me that the spirit of this thread reflects something entirely different than what is worthy of my further discussion within it. I believe what I would share would just be mocked and adversely debated. You all know where I'm going and you're ready to pounce.

Not having it.

The reason I ask is because I think many priorities are all mixed up.

This is The Church of Jesus Christ.
And Christ helped us orientate ourselves to what is most important:

• “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
  This is the first and great commandment.
  
  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” - Matthew 22:37-40

On a daily basis, I try to love God/Truth/the least of these, others and myself. I screw up on a regular basis, but I try.

cab wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 5:19 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 6:46 pmI’d like to know what covenants you refer to as well.
I know of many references to covenants.
Which are most important - and what do they entail on a daily basis?

Perhaps he's referring to the fresh from the press, flavor of the month, newly introduced precept of man we call "the covenant path"...

It makes sense as a marketing move. I heard that the church leaders did surveys etc and found that the temple was the way to bring in tithes and keep people active.

The problem is that Christ didn’t like the temple being used to make money. In pursuing these more ritualistic covenant$, the higher covenants/commandments go neglected. Christ even said, “let the dead bury the dead” and urged us to help the LIVING who are suffering now.

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 12:37 pm

LDS Physician wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 10:59 am

TylerDurden wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 8:01 am

LDS Physician wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 7:48 am

Then we know where you stand.

I'll believe the apostles who have taught us that partaking of the sacrament renews our covenants instead of what some guy named TylerDurden says on the internet (and that name, if you think about it, should at least raise some red flags).

Don’t take my word for it or the apostles’ word for it. Seek revelation from God to know if it’s true or not.

Elder D. Todd Christofferson “It should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”

Elder S. Dilworth Young “You must work through the Spirit. If that leads you into conflict with the program of the Church, you follow the voice of the Spirit.”

Thanks. I have and do. The answer? The sacrament renews my baptismal covenants and I should listen to and follow the apostles and the prophet.

You are missing the point. Don't you see the problem if a teaching/doctrine cannot be supported by scripture? It provides us with a litmus test in discerning truth vs falsehoods. On top of that, Joseph Smith taught the saints to NEVER accept any teaching or doctrine that was not in harmony with or that is contradictory to the scriptures. (*LOF were scripture at that time )

Joseph Smith. . .
"If any man preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Doctrine & Covenants, set him down as an imposter... Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or teach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches." -Joseph Smith, Times & Seasons, 5:490-491, April, 1, 1844.

Everywhere you turn there are the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture. Wrest not the scriptures to your destruction.

From one of my favorite posters on the forum.
Is the Sacrament to Renew Baptismal Covenants?
viewtopic.php?t=35892

You're missing my point: I went to the source and got my answer. Read again.

One can renew their end of the covenant by rededicating and recommitting themselves to doing what they previously promised the Lord. Does this not happen when we witness into [God] that they are willing (and that we do) take upon themselves the name of Christ?

I can certainly agree that the reason we partake of the sacrament is because the Lord commanded us. But a renewal of commitment should be a natural part of taking upon us His name, since we do it every 7 days.

LDS Physician wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 6:42 am

Stahura wrote: ↑January 13th, 2020, 10:31 am

LDS Physician wrote: ↑January 13th, 2020, 8:34 am I'm curious about those who don't attend but who say they have a testimony of the restoration, the priesthood, etc. How do you renew your covenants as commanded by way of the sacrament? Temple ordinances?

Where do the scriptures say that partaking of the sacrament “renews your covenants”? Where is it “commanded to renew your covenants”?

Apostle Elder Robert D. Hales:

“Each week in sacrament meeting we promise to remember the atoning sacrifice of our Savior as we renew our baptismal covenant. We promise to do as the Savior did—to be obedient to the Father and always keep His commandments. The blessing we receive in return is to always have His Spirit to be with us.”

Apostle Elder L. Tom Perry:

"The purpose of partaking of the sacrament is, of course, to renew the covenants we have made with the Lord. Elder Delbert L. Stapley instructed us in this when he said this about covenants: 'The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is a covenant between God and His people. When baptized by authorized servants of God, we covenant to do God's will and to obey His commandments. By taking of the sacrament, we renew all covenants entered into with the Lord and pledge ourselves to take upon us the name of the Son, to always remember Him and keep His commandments."'"

The Lord in D&C 1:38:

"38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same."

You forgot one. Of course, he's straddling the fence here because he doesn't want to throw everybody under the bus, but he's right that this doctrine is NOT taught in the scriptures:

Neil L. Anderson wrote:“The title ‘renewing our baptismal covenants’ is not found in the scriptures. It is not inappropriate. Many of you [gesturing to audience of Seventies and Auxiliary leaders] have used it in talks. We [gesturing to other apostles sitting on the stand behind him] have used it in talks, but it is not something that is used in the scriptures. And it can’t be the keynote of what we say about the sacrament. Spirituality is not stagnate and neither are covenants. And hopefully, what we pray, is that all of us as members are moving along a progressive growth both in our spirituality and in our covenants. Covenants bring not only commitments, but they bring spiritual power. We should teach our members that we are moving towards our Heavenly Father. The sacrament is a beautiful time to not just renew our baptismal covenants, but to commit to Him to renew all our covenants, all of our promises, and to approach Him in a spiritual power that we did not have previously as we move forward.”

This is from his talk in the General Conference Leadership Training, April 2015.