Would Nephi, Capt Moroni, Paul, or Esther be welcomed in the church now?

[Trucker]

Think of important, impactful people in the history of God's convenient people, who were righteous and examples to follow. People like:
Nephi (all of them)
Capt Moroni
Paul
Noah
Esther
Mary
or more modern ones, anyone you can think of.

Would they be welcomed at church? Would they find a faith community that embraces them?

Can you imagine them as the Young Women's President in your ward? Or the EQ President? Or as a Sunday school teacher, whatever?

Can you imagine any great mission to further the work of the Lord, or to spread the gospel, except through the existing programs of the church? I really can't.

I think we have a church culture that can be quite stifling. I think it trains people to be docile, pudgy-middle-managers, and subservient, taught to never complain and just do as they're told.

It's been said that the indication of a good society is one that allows good men to to their good deeds. Are we as a church a good church that allows people to do their good works, or does it always have to be as a drone in the colony?

It would be a shame to have God's church act in such a way that noble spirits who come down to earth are relegated to quiet compliance to "the program." I don't mean everyone should be able to do as they please, but can we imagine a situation that the church stifles noble spirits into inaction? Do we look to the cookie-cutter yes-men as the ideal, and anyone not that way are needing to get in line?

[mes5464]

Nope

[cab]

Think of important, impactful people in the history of God's convenient people, who were righteous and examples to follow. People like:
Nephi (all of them)
Capt Moroni
Paul
Noah
Esther
Mary
or more modern ones, anyone you can think of.

Would they be welcomed at church? Would they find a faith community that embraces them?

Can you imagine them as the Young Women's President in your ward? Or the EQ President? Or as a Sunday school teacher, whatever?

Can you imagine any great mission to further the work of the Lord, or to spread the gospel, except through the existing programs of the church? I really can't.

I think we have a church culture that can be quite stifling. I think it trains people to be docile, pudgy-middle-managers, and subservient, taught to never complain and just do as they're told.

It's been said that the indication of a good society is one that allows good men to to their good deeds. Are we as a church a good church that allows people to do their good works, or does it always have to be as a drone in the colony?

It would be a shame to have God's church act in such a way that noble spirits who come down to earth are relegated to quiet compliance to "the program." I don't mean everyone should be able to do as they please, but can we imagine a situation that the church stifles noble spirits into inaction? Do we look to the cookie-cutter yes-men as the ideal, and anyone not that way are needing to get in line?

I imagine they would resort to teaching private lessons or gathering group studies or even blogging or writing books... Then once leadership catches wind of the "mysteries" being taught they would be called in and asked to cease and desist... Then if the Spirit tells them to proceed with their teaching they would be excommunicated for apostasy.

Ever heard of Max Skousen? Mike Stroud? Rob Smith? Avraham Gileadi?

[Chip]

Somebody call the cops. We have a situation here.

[JohnnyL]

Some places would be very welcoming, but not in our ward.

Now, Trucker--would YOU welcome them? The first three were very faithful, very gung-ho, very obedient...

[Trucker]

Some places would be very welcoming, but not in our ward.

Now, Trucker--would YOU welcome them? The first three were very faithful, very gung-ho, very obedient...

Not sure what you are implying. I would like to think I would be welcoming. I'm not requiring anyone to conform to anything. I'm not demanding any behavior, other than letting people alone and using persuasion, not manipulation, shame, or abuse.

And if they are obedient to God, well of course that's good.

[Juliet]

Now Moroni, we believe in being subject to king men over the constitution so long as we get our social security checks in the mail...remember, when there is evil, we don't see it, we don't speak about, and we don't hear about it. Above all else, be positive, even if it means ignoring problems that need to be dealt with.

Martha would be young women's president.

Noah would be emergency prep specialist

Nephi, can you explain the interpretation of Elder Uchtdorf's jet plane parable? How about the cat lady?

Paul, we love you and believe in forgiveness, but we hear you had an alternate identity before you joined our church?

Peter, talk it out with Elder Holland, he'll understand.

Mary, we know you saw the risen Lord first, but can you please give others a chance to comment?

Thomas, stay away from the anti-Mormon literature.

Has anyone got their patriachal blessing from Lehi?

Joseph Smith- we know there are more ancient texts such as the Nag Hammadi, but we have the bible and the book of Mormon, so we will not be accepting anymore literature for scriptural discussion. If you keep this up you are going to have to form your own church and you know how well that usually works.

Sidney Rigdon - hey, we don't practice polygamy anymore! Welcome back!

Alma - is your gospel blog getting lots of likes?

Ammon - you can't change them, brother. Just because you love them doesn't mean you should stay in a bad relationship.

Zeezerom - Ah, I hear you were just called as mission president!

Amalakiah - have you been attending your addiction recovery meetings?

Helaman - please keep your conspiracy stories to yourself. Kishkumen is not operating a secret coven. He is just a regular middle class man. You must not have gotten enough hugs as a child. Just serve as primary chorister and teach the kids the song about building on the rock.

[David13]

I know Porter Rockwell would. At least by me, anyway.

I'd welcome him, I suppose.
dc

[abijah`]

not enoch or elijah. those guys were crazy. a wild man hath come among us.

[Robin Hood]

Think of important, impactful people in the history of God's convenient people, who were righteous and examples to follow. People like:
Nephi (all of them)
Capt Moroni
Paul
Noah
Esther
Mary
or more modern ones, anyone you can think of.

Would they be welcomed at church? Would they find a faith community that embraces them?

Can you imagine them as the Young Women's President in your ward? Or the EQ President? Or as a Sunday school teacher, whatever?

Can you imagine any great mission to further the work of the Lord, or to spread the gospel, except through the existing programs of the church? I really can't.

I think we have a church culture that can be quite stifling. I think it trains people to be docile, pudgy-middle-managers, and subservient, taught to never complain and just do as they're told.

It's been said that the indication of a good society is one that allows good men to to their good deeds. Are we as a church a good church that allows people to do their good works, or does it always have to be as a drone in the colony?

It would be a shame to have God's church act in such a way that noble spirits who come down to earth are relegated to quiet compliance to "the program." I don't mean everyone should be able to do as they please, but can we imagine a situation that the church stifles noble spirits into inaction? Do we look to the cookie-cutter yes-men as the ideal, and anyone not that way are needing to get in line?

I would add John the Baptist to that list.
His appearance was so scruffy that it was mentioned in the gospels; restored the keys of the Aaronic priesthood to the earth.... and yet the average bishop wouldn't permit him to bless the sacrament.

[oneClimbs]

We don't know how they would have responded to our day. Captain Moroni had already been through 2-3 wars by the time he was put at the head of the Nephite armies. It was a smaller society and they were all very close to the wickedness in high places where our federal government is extremely far removed from the people. War was impending and the whole society was extremely fragile. When the same conditions exist, we will see people doing the kinds of things that those in the past did.

Right now we live in relative peace and prosperity. While there is a lot of wickedness there are an awful lot of really good people out there both in and out of the church. Nephi, Moroni, Paul and Esther were a product of their own time and circumstances. Had they been born in our day, they might not look much different than you or I. So to ask if you just plucked them out of their tumultuous lives and placed them in modern-day church to see if they would be accepted is a ridiculous idea.

I've know good and bad members of the church. The church is US and it is a mixed bag as it always has been.

Spencer W. Kimball said: "It is the living Prophet who really upsets the world. Even in the Church, many are prone to garnish the sepulchers of yesterday's prophets and mentally stone the living ones.”

The OP kind of reminds me of that. We look back at these people and assume that we are so much better than other members and think that surely we would not have any problems with them and that others would. If that idea is in your head, you may want to think again and check your pride.

[Art Vandelay]

Those who don't accept the Lord's current Prophets and Apostles probably wouldn't accept Prophets of the past. God calls his Prophets for certain times and circumstances. Russel Nelson is the Prophet God wants today. If Captain Moroni were here today and in charge he'd be preparing the Saints for the 2nd coming just as Nelson is.

Instead of wondering if we'd welcome old Prophets we should be concerned if we welcome today's Prophets.

[MMbelieve]

We don't know how they would have responded to our day. Captain Moroni had already been through 2-3 wars by the time he was put at the head of the Nephite armies. It was a smaller society and they were all very close to the wickedness in high places where our federal government is extremely far removed from the people. War was impending and the whole society was extremely fragile. When the same conditions exist, we will see people doing the kinds of things that those in the past did.

Right now we live in relative peace and prosperity. While there is a lot of wickedness there are an awful lot of really good people out there both in and out of the church. Nephi, Moroni, Paul and Esther were a product of their own time and circumstances. Had they been born in our day, they might not look much different than you or I. So to ask if you just plucked them out of their tumultuous lives and placed them in modern-day church to see if they would be accepted is a ridiculous idea.

I've know good and bad members of the church. The church is US and it is a mixed bag as it always has been.

Spencer W. Kimball said: "It is the living Prophet who really upsets the world. Even in the Church, many are prone to garnish the sepulchers of yesterday's prophets and mentally stone the living ones.”

The OP kind of reminds me of that. We look back at these people and assume that we are so much better than other members and think that surely we would not have any problems with them and that others would. If that idea is in your head, you may want to think again and check your pride.

I will add to your words some of my continuing thoughts.

If all that my descendants knew of me was a few pages of my diary they might think I was a super awesome individual also.

I think all those people named would be just fine in the church today. You never know when you might be sitting next to a Captain Moroni, brave and strong who has won many battles and lead others to victory or an Ester who stands up against all odds and to her own demise to love and sacrifice for others. We seriously need to stop idolizing the scripture characters, it’s as bad as prophet worship today. If these people would not be welcomed in the church today it’s because we haven’t been strong or brave or faithful as they have. Which is simply not true because we all have.

[Trucker]

We don't know how they would have responded to our day. Captain Moroni had already been through 2-3 wars by the time he was put at the head of the Nephite armies. It was a smaller society and they were all very close to the wickedness in high places where our federal government is extremely far removed from the people. War was impending and the whole society was extremely fragile. When the same conditions exist, we will see people doing the kinds of things that those in the past did.

Right now we live in relative peace and prosperity. While there is a lot of wickedness there are an awful lot of really good people out there both in and out of the church. Nephi, Moroni, Paul and Esther were a product of their own time and circumstances. Had they been born in our day, they might not look much different than you or I. So to ask if you just plucked them out of their tumultuous lives and placed them in modern-day church to see if they would be accepted is a ridiculous idea.

I've know good and bad members of the church. The church is US and it is a mixed bag as it always has been.

Spencer W. Kimball said: "It is the living Prophet who really upsets the world. Even in the Church, many are prone to garnish the sepulchers of yesterday's prophets and mentally stone the living ones.”

The OP kind of reminds me of that. We look back at these people and assume that we are so much better than other members and think that surely we would not have any problems with them and that others would. If that idea is in your head, you may want to think again and check your pride.

Lol, this is a great example of trying to shame people to not be critical of anything in the church. There could be no other reason for raising an issue except for pride.

And it's not that people form the past would look different here now. It's that they couldn't do anything but the church program, and be completely busy with that. and they better like it.

[MMbelieve]

We don't know how they would have responded to our day. Captain Moroni had already been through 2-3 wars by the time he was put at the head of the Nephite armies. It was a smaller society and they were all very close to the wickedness in high places where our federal government is extremely far removed from the people. War was impending and the whole society was extremely fragile. When the same conditions exist, we will see people doing the kinds of things that those in the past did.

Right now we live in relative peace and prosperity. While there is a lot of wickedness there are an awful lot of really good people out there both in and out of the church. Nephi, Moroni, Paul and Esther were a product of their own time and circumstances. Had they been born in our day, they might not look much different than you or I. So to ask if you just plucked them out of their tumultuous lives and placed them in modern-day church to see if they would be accepted is a ridiculous idea.

I've know good and bad members of the church. The church is US and it is a mixed bag as it always has been.

Spencer W. Kimball said: "It is the living Prophet who really upsets the world. Even in the Church, many are prone to garnish the sepulchers of yesterday's prophets and mentally stone the living ones.”

The OP kind of reminds me of that. We look back at these people and assume that we are so much better than other members and think that surely we would not have any problems with them and that others would. If that idea is in your head, you may want to think again and check your pride.

Lol, this is a great example of trying to shame people to not be critical of anything in the church. There could be no other reason for raising an issue except for pride.

And it's not that people form the past would look different here now. It's that they couldn't do anything but the church program, and be completely busy with that. and they better like it.

Hmmm...maybe this is the problem. People think they need to fully participate in the churches programs and not do anything else. I sure wish people would lift up their heads and start thinking and doing for themselves and realize the programs are for us if we want to use them but not to limit us on anything. If this is really the problem then I hope we have church at home to help people wake up.

[oneClimbs]

We don't know how they would have responded to our day. Captain Moroni had already been through 2-3 wars by the time he was put at the head of the Nephite armies. It was a smaller society and they were all very close to the wickedness in high places where our federal government is extremely far removed from the people. War was impending and the whole society was extremely fragile. When the same conditions exist, we will see people doing the kinds of things that those in the past did.

Right now we live in relative peace and prosperity. While there is a lot of wickedness there are an awful lot of really good people out there both in and out of the church. Nephi, Moroni, Paul and Esther were a product of their own time and circumstances. Had they been born in our day, they might not look much different than you or I. So to ask if you just plucked them out of their tumultuous lives and placed them in modern-day church to see if they would be accepted is a ridiculous idea.

I've know good and bad members of the church. The church is US and it is a mixed bag as it always has been.

Spencer W. Kimball said: "It is the living Prophet who really upsets the world. Even in the Church, many are prone to garnish the sepulchers of yesterday's prophets and mentally stone the living ones.”

The OP kind of reminds me of that. We look back at these people and assume that we are so much better than other members and think that surely we would not have any problems with them and that others would. If that idea is in your head, you may want to think again and check your pride.

Lol, this is a great example of trying to shame people to not be critical of anything in the church. There could be no other reason for raising an issue except for pride.

And it's not that people form the past would look different here now. It's that they couldn't do anything but the church program, and be completely busy with that. and they better like it.

No, that's not what I was getting at, you're way off. The OP is about certain ancient individuals and if they would be tolerated in church today. The original question and follow up comments implied that they would be rejected perhaps because we are so wicked today as observed by individuals who seem to be "woke" enough to realize this "truth."

You may want to read what I wrote again. There are a number of things to be critical of among our people, because we are made up of fallible mortals. Finding things to be critical of is neither difficult or noble. Pride is not the only reason people are critical, although it is certainly one. People can be critical out of deep and legitimate concern, but we are talking specifically about an OP that casts a collectivist judgment upon the modern membership assuming that they would reject these people.

Now the OP raises some legitimate questions, we should not be a stifling people but in some places, in some wards, with some people we are. And in some places in some wards with some people we are most certainly not.

"The Church" isn't some monolithic being it is a collection of INDIVIDUALS who all act independently. The one thing I hate about collectivism is that it ignores the individual and seeks to categorize people and then judge the category. This is one of the big complaints against the left and I would place it in the logical fallacy department of reasoning.

What I said about pride is that if you think you wouldn't have stoned the prophets and would have accepted them, then you might want to check your pride (no YOU specifically, I am speaking generally and including myself). I think that if Nephi, Capt Moroni, Paul, or Esther walked into random wards today, the reactions would be as mixed as they are now with either you or I. We cannot predict how they would act, they didn't live in the same circumstances or grow up with what we had.

If someone walked into the chapel with armor on and raised a title of liberty and called people to arms then I think that yeah they would probably be kicked out because that is not needed right now. We are not at the point where we are going to take arms and kill people to prepare for an imminent invasion.

It is quite possible that at various times in Nephite history that one of us would be kicked out of the Nephite church for whatever reason and perhaps unjustly so. The Nephites were not always good people, they were severely abusive to other members in ways that astonish us today when we read about it.

So this is kind of a pointless exercise. God doesn't judge us against one another so why are we trying to do the same? I dislike posts that simply seek to throw "the church" under the bus for unprovable things like this. It's really reaching for being critical in an area that is impossible to hold people accountable for. If there is a legitimate criticism, let it be heard, name the individual and the circumstance with all the details and we can discuss.

But holding people accountable for hypothetical criticisms is unfair.

Personally I feel liberated by being a member of the church. I'm alive because of the priesthood, faith, and leaders who acted in faith. I know God, have seen miracles, and have a strong and fulfilling marriage and family all because of my journey with the saints. Sure, some bishops and leaders can be "stifling" but that's why callings expire. You're only stifled if you allow yourself to be, there is nothing stopping you from exercising faith and doing great and wonderful things. I know because that's what I and others have done. I've also seen others just sit around and complain and make excuses. Be the change you wish to see in the world, BE a Nephi, Capt. Moroni, Paul, or Esther and do good.

That good may not be leading armies, it may be teaching a class of kids. It may not be that great thing, but it may be washing in the Jordan river 7 times. One of Satan's greatest deceptions is to make us believe that only great things matter, but the truth is that it is the small and simple things that bring about greatness.