Multiple mortalities?

[Believing Joseph]

Sure we’re tested but the Creation and the Plan and the whole design is also being tested or showed or proved. God is being proven by us being here, so is Christ. Does this plan actually work? Well, let’s make an earth and send them there to prove them. That we (the Gods) can make this work and create intelligences that make correct choices when they are presented and to form loving bonds with one another and such and such then we can bring them back home. To show that our creations can do what we ask of them...means that we are definitely going to be helped in this endeavor.

I am a bit confused by this. It seems to me that the plain meaning of "we will prove them herewith" is that the spirits are going to be proven; the Book of Mormon is saying the same thing, as "probation" is from the Latin probare meaning to try, test or prove.

I understand the point of view of people who are bothered by reincarnation since it's dangerous to believe that we're going to get a do-over or that we don't need to rely on the atonement of Christ. That's why I always qualify my statements in threads like these with my belief that, if you treat your fellow men badly enough or knowingly rebel against God, you are going to be thrust down to hell.

The reason I defend the belief - even though I'm not entirely certain of it - is because it seems to me that to "make correct choices when they are presented and to form loving bonds with one another," as you put it, is essential to the purpose of life, and that it's not something everybody gets much of an opportunity to do.

So faced with the choice between:

1) Not everybody will have a chance at salvation
2) Choosing good over evil, forming loving bonds with our fellow men, and getting to know God while in mortality is often unnecessary for a man's salvation, or
3) Reincarnation is possible for at least some of those who inherit neither the highest nor the lowest degree of glory.

It seems to me that the third option is the most likely. Number two goes against a lot of important scriptures, and also against my intuitive belief that those things are kind of important.

[nightlight]

"So where did you live?"

"Oh, I was 440 AD, in Asia. I only made it to like 15 years old though. Attila the Hun slaughtered our town."

"Really? That's too bad. I know how you feel though, I only made it to age 10 myself, but was sacrificed by the local priest. Mesoamerica, 700AD."

"Sorry to hear that. Yeah, this life thing was pretty random. Remember all that talk about God and Jesus and stuff before we left, learning to obey them, gaining experience, learning the gospel?"

"Yeah, I remember. But I never heard any of that stuff. My life was pretty short and horrible, you know what I mean?"

"Same here. I never got to do any of the things I wanted to do before we left."

"But I was talking to some of those missionaries that keep walking around. They say we can go to the CK if we accept the ordinances of the church."

"I heard about that too. But holy crap thats gonna be a long wait. It will be forever until they get to our names"

"Ha ha. We should be considered lucky. See that dude over there? Tower of babel era. Waaaay back in time."

"See that group of people over there? I wonder why they are always so happy?

"I was thinking that myself and went over and talked to them the other day. Turns out, they get a free pass. Straight to the CK."

"What? How did they swing that?

"They all died as children. They don't have to wait."

"Really?"

"Yep. I'm sort of pissed. I missed out by like a year and half. I sort of wish the priest in our village would have picked me sooner. I might of had a free pass myself."

"Yeah, that sucks. So you think you are ready for the CK? You think you learned enough on earth for that?"

"You know, its kind of weird. When I think on what I learned, I'm not sure it translates into CK material. All I really did was work, look for food, and try to stay alive. I'm not sure what the point of going down was, other than I needed to get body."

"Same here. Like I said before, I didn't know anything about real the real God. We worshipped nature or something like that. It seemed reasonable at the time, but we never knew why these Gods seems mad all the time, cursing our weather and such. Seems a little foolish now thinking back."

Both your protagonists were born without the Law....meaning they both qualify for the first resurrection

[Davka]

Not in the way some think. The roles we play when we next come to an earth will be Adam and Eve and Saviour type roles. We won't have another life where we come not knowing anything about the Gospel.

Same problem here^. Adam and Eve died on this Earth. If they had been resurrected beings who had lived their full mortality in another world and then were resurrected, they could not have died again. The scriptures speak plainly to this fact. Once resurrection happens, death has no power over us any longer.

Unless one chooses "for themselves" to allow death to have power over them once again for the benefit of their posterity, and by extension, their own progression.

"Nevertheless, the must choose for themselves..."

The temple is very clear on this fact.

The people who chose to reject the Savior in the pre-existence were essentially punished for their rebellion or at the very least denied the blessings. So if people choose to deny their perfected bodies and caste it off, how are they not doing the same thing?

That’s assuming that the gift that was rejected by the 1/3 was a body, which it doesn’t say in the scriptures. We make the assumption that what they rejected was a body, when what the scriptures say is that they rejected the Chosen One.

In addition, because a redemption was already prepared and a Savior provided, they weren’t really “casting off” their bodies. They would be resurrected again. That’s the beauty of the plan! What a blessing that God’s children can continue to progress in a mortal sphere (the best condition in which to develop and learn) without the inevitable “death and hell” that Nephi spoke of, and still be saved.

From one grace to another.

There’s also the question of what it means to “go no more out,” which is all over scripture. There’s evidence that it refers to a point that certain (likely a very, very select few) individuals can take upon themselves mortality, but without the risk of falling from their station. If so, Adam and Eve were probably part of that group. But that’s a discussion for a later time

[Rick Grimes]

Not in the way some think. The roles we play when we next come to an earth will be Adam and Eve and Saviour type roles. We won't have another life where we come not knowing anything about the Gospel.

Same problem here^. Adam and Eve died on this Earth. If they had been resurrected beings who had lived their full mortality in another world and then were resurrected, they could not have died again. The scriptures speak plainly to this fact. Once resurrection happens, death has no power over us any longer.

Adam was Michael and brought his wife down with him, according to Brigham Young. They fell by sinning, thus became mortal again. BY said we would have to be Adams and Eves.

Plus Joseph Smith explained that we would also have to be Holy Ghosts and Saviours, 'going from grace to grace, exaltation to exaltation until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and can sit in everlasting burnings'. (see King Follett Discourse)

Adam and Eve were immortal, but they had never died before. When resurrected, death has no power over you. You cant "fall again" and have to work out your mortality again. This life was Adam and Eve's go, not before. They hadn't lived their life and died before this world. What's keeping HF and JC from "falling again" and having to work it out again? Its ludicrous to even think this.

Joseph and Brighams quotes dont mean what you are trying to say they do, btw.

[Believing Joseph]

"So where did you live?"

"Oh, I was 440 AD, in Asia. I only made it to like 15 years old though. Attila the Hun slaughtered our town....

Both your protagonists were born without the Law....meaning they both qualify for the first resurrection

According to a literal reading of D&C 76, they'll inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom.

If you interpret the Terrestrial Kingdom the way most LDS do, as a place of permanent seperation from God the Father, that looks pretty bleak. Hence the tendency of many thinking Mormons to see the ressurection and the degrees of glory differently.

[Luke]

Not in the way some think. The roles we play when we next come to an earth will be Adam and Eve and Saviour type roles. We won't have another life where we come not knowing anything about the Gospel.

Same problem here^. Adam and Eve died on this Earth. If they had been resurrected beings who had lived their full mortality in another world and then were resurrected, they could not have died again. The scriptures speak plainly to this fact. Once resurrection happens, death has no power over us any longer.

Adam was Michael and brought his wife down with him, according to Brigham Young. They fell by sinning, thus became mortal again. BY said we would have to be Adams and Eves.

Plus Joseph Smith explained that we would also have to be Holy Ghosts and Saviours, 'going from grace to grace, exaltation to exaltation until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and can sit in everlasting burnings'. (see King Follett Discourse)

Adam and Eve were immortal, but they had never died before. We don't know that, both Joseph and Brigham seemed to disagree with that thesis.


When resurrected, death has no power over you. You cant "fall again" and have to work out your mortality again. Adam and Eve would have guaranteed their place back in Exaltation because of their role, just like Christ, who condescended

This life was Adam and Eve's go, not before. They hadn't lived their life and died before this world. Brigham et al. disagreed.


What's keeping HF and JC from "falling again" and having to work it out again? They are past that stage.

Its ludicrous to even think this. Brigham et al. didn't think so.

Joseph and Brighams quotes dont mean what you are trying to say they do, btw. "You have to be Adam and Eve's yourselves." - Brigham Young. That seems to agree.

My comments in Green.

[nightlight]

Not in the way some think. The roles we play when we next come to an earth will be Adam and Eve and Saviour type roles. We won't have another life where we come not knowing anything about the Gospel.

Same problem here^. Adam and Eve died on this Earth. If they had been resurrected beings who had lived their full mortality in another world and then were resurrected, they could not have died again. The scriptures speak plainly to this fact. Once resurrection happens, death has no power over us any longer.

Adam was Michael and brought his wife down with him, according to Brigham Young. They fell by sinning, thus became mortal again. BY said we would have to be Adams and Eves.

Plus Joseph Smith explained that we would also have to be Holy Ghosts and Saviours, 'going from grace to grace, exaltation to exaltation until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and can sit in everlasting burnings'. (see King Follett Discourse)

BY said a lot of things. His words are not doctrine.

"until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and can sit in everlasting burnings'. (see King Follett Discourse)"
^^^^^so that kinda throws a wrench at what you are saying, it contradicts everything you are implying ....
Think about what JS was saying in a nonMMP context...

[Luke]

Not in the way some think. The roles we play when we next come to an earth will be Adam and Eve and Saviour type roles. We won't have another life where we come not knowing anything about the Gospel.

Same problem here^. Adam and Eve died on this Earth. If they had been resurrected beings who had lived their full mortality in another world and then were resurrected, they could not have died again. The scriptures speak plainly to this fact. Once resurrection happens, death has no power over us any longer.

Adam was Michael and brought his wife down with him, according to Brigham Young. They fell by sinning, thus became mortal again. BY said we would have to be Adams and Eves.

Plus Joseph Smith explained that we would also have to be Holy Ghosts and Saviours, 'going from grace to grace, exaltation to exaltation until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and can sit in everlasting burnings'. (see King Follett Discourse)

BY said a lot of things. His words are not doctrine.

True, but nonetheless this is pretty significant.

"until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and can sit in everlasting burnings'. (see King Follett Discourse)"
^^^^^so that kinda throws a wrench at what you are saying, it contradicts everything you are implying ....
Think about what JS was saying in a nonMMP context...

Going from exaltation to exaltation clearly means going from one stage to another. Jesus passed his final test by attaining to resurrection of the dead by way of working out the Atonement. Thus he is now at the stage of the Father, and can now sit in everlasting burnings.

[MMbelieve]

Sure we’re tested but the Creation and the Plan and the whole design is also being tested or showed or proved. God is being proven by us being here, so is Christ. Does this plan actually work? Well, let’s make an earth and send them there to prove them. That we (the Gods) can make this work and create intelligences that make correct choices when they are presented and to form loving bonds with one another and such and such then we can bring them back home. To show that our creations can do what we ask of them...means that we are definitely going to be helped in this endeavor.

I am a bit confused by this. It seems to me that the plain meaning of "we will prove them herewith" is that the spirits are going to be proven; the Book of Mormon is saying the same thing, as "probation" is from the Latin probare meaning to try, test or prove.

I understand the point of view of people who are bothered by reincarnation since it's dangerous to believe that we're going to get a do-over or that we don't need to rely on the atonement of Christ. That's why I always qualify my statements in threads like these with my belief that, if you treat your fellow men badly enough or knowingly rebel against God, you are going to be thrust down to hell.

The reason I defend the belief - even though I'm not entirely certain of it - is because it seems to me that to "make correct choices when they are presented and to form loving bonds with one another," as you put it, is essential to the purpose of life, and that it's not something everybody gets much of an opportunity to do.

So faced with the choice between:

1) Not everybody will have a chance at salvation
2) Choosing good over evil, forming loving bonds with our fellow men, and getting to know God while in mortality is often unnecessary for a man's salvation, or
3) Reincarnation is possible for at least some of those who inherit neither the highest nor the lowest degree of glory.

It seems to me that the third option is the most likely. Number two goes against a lot of important scriptures, and also against my intuitive belief that those things are kind of important.

My first suggestion to you is to not take my words as anything but my thoughts at this time. I have no answers, no one really does. We’re here in this estate and have a veil so unless God comes here and tells us what it’s all about then we’re only giving our opinions. The scriptures are useful but also unclear on many things that come up as deeper questions.

The people who were able to experience the savior in the flesh while he was here was a very small number. The people who have lived after the gospel restoration began with Jospeh is also very small in comparison. The members of this church are tiny compared to the worlds population. Looking at the small number of people who actually are given the full gospel in their lives and then the even smaller amount of people who take it seriously and live it it’s quite surprising really. This leads me to way more questions than can be answered here.
It really doesn’t make any sense to our human minds. I believe this is why MMP is considered. It’s a way for our limited minds to make sense. Uncertainty is scary and results in less confidence so it’s human nature to try our best to make sense to regain that stable sense of our stability for our lives. But the scriptures do not elevate the need for us to have confidence but to have faith. We just need to trust Gods plan even though it makes no sense or seems unfair or even biased.
God knows everything, we know little.

I’m not in opposition to the scriptures you posted.

And for the record, this stuff gets very confusing for me too more the I dive into trying to understand all these details. And to be honest, your questions encouraged me to even look into this stuff that I hadn’t given much thought to before.

I heard this idea from a preacher and it has stuck with me over the years. The idea that Christ is a potter and we are a pot...when a pot is placed in a kiln it turns bright red and becomes purified or cured and the way to tell it is finished is when he pulls it out and flicks the rip of it and it sings. So if we want out of the fire then learn to sing, lol. If we get flicked and don’t sing then we’re thrown back in until we do. If this is what our life experience is summed up to be then I get it.

[Rick Grimes]

Same problem here^. Adam and Eve died on this Earth. If they had been resurrected beings who had lived their full mortality in another world and then were resurrected, they could not have died again. The scriptures speak plainly to this fact. Once resurrection happens, death has no power over us any longer.

Adam was Michael and brought his wife down with him, according to Brigham Young. They fell by sinning, thus became mortal again. BY said we would have to be Adams and Eves.

Plus Joseph Smith explained that we would also have to be Holy Ghosts and Saviours, 'going from grace to grace, exaltation to exaltation until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and can sit in everlasting burnings'. (see King Follett Discourse)

Adam and Eve were immortal, but they had never died before. We don't know that, both Joseph and Brigham seemed to disagree with that thesis.


When resurrected, death has no power over you. You cant "fall again" and have to work out your mortality again. Adam and Eve would have guaranteed their place back in Exaltation because of their role, just like Christ, who condescended

This life was Adam and Eve's go, not before. They hadn't lived their life and died before this world. Brigham et al. disagreed.


What's keeping HF and JC from "falling again" and having to work it out again? They are past that stage.

Its ludicrous to even think this. Brigham et al. didn't think so.

Joseph and Brighams quotes dont mean what you are trying to say they do, btw. "You have to be Adam and Eve's yourselves." - Brigham Young. That seems to agree.

My comments in Green.

Again, you keep writing that "Brigham disagrees" but that's your own private interpretation from a 3rd party like J of D. I believe there is a lot of truth from this resource, just like there is a lot of truth from the old and new testament apocrypha, however, just like the apocrypha, J of D has some misquotes or straight up fallacies that werent corrected by the source. Your own reasoning doesnt line up. In one line you state Adam and Eve "fell" even though they were resurrected beings, but then you state that Christ and the Father can't fall again because they "are past this"?? So only certain individuals can fall and reincarnated again?? This is what I call strange and deluded doctrine.

[MMbelieve]

Same problem here^. Adam and Eve died on this Earth. If they had been resurrected beings who had lived their full mortality in another world and then were resurrected, they could not have died again. The scriptures speak plainly to this fact. Once resurrection happens, death has no power over us any longer.

Unless one chooses "for themselves" to allow death to have power over them once again for the benefit of their posterity, and by extension, their own progression.

"Nevertheless, the must choose for themselves..."

The temple is very clear on this fact.

The people who chose to reject the Savior in the pre-existence were essentially punished for their rebellion or at the very least denied the blessings. So if people choose to deny their perfected bodies and caste it off, how are they not doing the same thing?

That’s assuming that the gift that was rejected by the 1/3 was a body, which it doesn’t say in the scriptures. We make the assumption that what they rejected was a body, when what the scriptures say is that they rejected the Chosen One.

In addition, because a redemption was already prepared and a Savior provided, they weren’t really “casting off” their bodies. They would be resurrected again. That’s the beauty of the plan! What a blessing that God’s children can continue to progress in a mortal sphere (the best condition in which to develop and learn) without the inevitable “death and hell” that Nephi spoke of, and still be saved.

From one grace to another.

There’s also the question of what it means to “go no more out,” which is all over scripture. There’s evidence that it refers to a point that certain (likely a very, very select few) individuals can take upon themselves mortality, but without the risk of falling from their station. If so, Adam and Eve were probably part of that group. But that’s a discussion for a later time

But if the third part rejected to participate in the plan of God (though they are still playing a role according to our teachings) then they are not part of the redemption and resurrection that His plan provides for those who choose Him.

Yes, we assume it’s a body they were rejected. Because that’s what we gain by being born. It’s also what we are reunited with after death and separation. If they were sent to earth (which the scriptures state) then they were sent here by a different means and in a different state than we have been sent here. This is obvious and I believe agreed upon.

Will they ever get a body? It’s believed they will not.

I simply do not believe in MMP as I understand it to be.
Multiple mortal probations means many of this same life or mortality and being in a state of probation. If we come back after being perfected as a Adam or Eve or Savior then it’s most certainly not the same life as this one. The belief of MMP is simply reincarnation and this is false. It has to be or the gospel we teach and preach is not correct. And if I knew I would come back here again to live another life then I wouldn’t be sitting here wasting my time debating the cosmos, I would be out enjoying it with no pressure to be any particular way or have any particular belief system. It would actually be very depressing to know that I would have to do this all over again, lol. To me, it’s not worth it at all. I want one life, not many. I want to be me and no one else. I want to just become my best self as myself. I don’t want to be an Eve or a Mary.

[Luke]

Adam was Michael and brought his wife down with him, according to Brigham Young. They fell by sinning, thus became mortal again. BY said we would have to be Adams and Eves.

Plus Joseph Smith explained that we would also have to be Holy Ghosts and Saviours, 'going from grace to grace, exaltation to exaltation until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and can sit in everlasting burnings'. (see King Follett Discourse)

Adam and Eve were immortal, but they had never died before. We don't know that, both Joseph and Brigham seemed to disagree with that thesis.


When resurrected, death has no power over you. You cant "fall again" and have to work out your mortality again. Adam and Eve would have guaranteed their place back in Exaltation because of their role, just like Christ, who condescended

This life was Adam and Eve's go, not before. They hadn't lived their life and died before this world. Brigham et al. disagreed.


What's keeping HF and JC from "falling again" and having to work it out again? They are past that stage.

Its ludicrous to even think this. Brigham et al. didn't think so.

Joseph and Brighams quotes dont mean what you are trying to say they do, btw. "You have to be Adam and Eve's yourselves." - Brigham Young. That seems to agree.

My comments in Green.

Again, you keep writing that "Brigham disagrees" but that's your own private interpretation from a 3rd party like J of D.

Not just Brigham either. Heber C. Kimball and many others also taught this.

I believe there is a lot of truth from this resource, just like there is a lot of truth from the old and new testament apocrypha, however, just like the apocrypha, J of D has some misquotes or straight up fallacies that werent corrected by the source.

I happen to agree.

Your own reasoning doesnt line up. In one line you state Adam and Eve "fell" even though they were resurrected beings, but then you state that Christ and the Father can't fall again because they "are past this"?? So only certain individuals can fall and reincarnated again?? This is what I call strange and deluded doctrine.

No. Adam and Eve fell because that was their role, to begin mankind. The Father could fall if he wanted to but then he would cease to be God - which is what happened to Adam and Eve. They ceased to be Gods so they could begin mankind.

[nightlight]

Same problem here^. Adam and Eve died on this Earth. If they had been resurrected beings who had lived their full mortality in another world and then were resurrected, they could not have died again. The scriptures speak plainly to this fact. Once resurrection happens, death has no power over us any longer.

Adam was Michael and brought his wife down with him, according to Brigham Young. They fell by sinning, thus became mortal again. BY said we would have to be Adams and Eves.

Plus Joseph Smith explained that we would also have to be Holy Ghosts and Saviours, 'going from grace to grace, exaltation to exaltation until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and can sit in everlasting burnings'. (see King Follett Discourse)

BY said a lot of things. His words are not doctrine.

True, but nonetheless this is pretty significant.

"until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and can sit in everlasting burnings'. (see King Follett Discourse)"
^^^^^so that kinda throws a wrench at what you are saying, it contradicts everything you are implying ....
Think about what JS was saying in a nonMMP context...

Going from exaltation to exaltation clearly means going from one stage to another. Jesus passed his final test by attaining to resurrection of the dead by way of working out the Atonement. Thus he is now at the stage of the Father, and can now sit in everlasting burnings.

The Resurrection has been happening since Christ was killed on the cross.
In "The Resurrection" ....all who qualify. ........WILL ATTAIN THEIR RESURRECTION.

You will get the same resurrection Jesus got...this is the point of Him.
We get what He has...what the Father has.

[Luke]

Adam was Michael and brought his wife down with him, according to Brigham Young. They fell by sinning, thus became mortal again. BY said we would have to be Adams and Eves.

Plus Joseph Smith explained that we would also have to be Holy Ghosts and Saviours, 'going from grace to grace, exaltation to exaltation until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and can sit in everlasting burnings'. (see King Follett Discourse)

BY said a lot of things. His words are not doctrine.

True, but nonetheless this is pretty significant.

"until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and can sit in everlasting burnings'. (see King Follett Discourse)"
^^^^^so that kinda throws a wrench at what you are saying, it contradicts everything you are implying ....
Think about what JS was saying in a nonMMP context...

Going from exaltation to exaltation clearly means going from one stage to another. Jesus passed his final test by attaining to resurrection of the dead by way of working out the Atonement. Thus he is now at the stage of the Father, and can now sit in everlasting burnings.

The Resurrection has been happening since Christ was killed on the cross.
In "The Resurrection" ....all who qualify. ........WILL ATTAIN THEIR RESURRECTION.

You will get the same resurrection Jesus got...this is the point of Him.
We get what He has...what the Father has.

He meant the ability to resurrect others... if your thesis was true we wouldn't be going from 'exaltation to exaltation'.

[Davka]

Unless one chooses "for themselves" to allow death to have power over them once again for the benefit of their posterity, and by extension, their own progression.

"Nevertheless, the must choose for themselves..."

The temple is very clear on this fact.

The people who chose to reject the Savior in the pre-existence were essentially punished for their rebellion or at the very least denied the blessings. So if people choose to deny their perfected bodies and caste it off, how are they not doing the same thing?

That’s assuming that the gift that was rejected by the 1/3 was a body, which it doesn’t say in the scriptures. We make the assumption that what they rejected was a body, when what the scriptures say is that they rejected the Chosen One.

In addition, because a redemption was already prepared and a Savior provided, they weren’t really “casting off” their bodies. They would be resurrected again. That’s the beauty of the plan! What a blessing that God’s children can continue to progress in a mortal sphere (the best condition in which to develop and learn) without the inevitable “death and hell” that Nephi spoke of, and still be saved.

From one grace to another.

There’s also the question of what it means to “go no more out,” which is all over scripture. There’s evidence that it refers to a point that certain (likely a very, very select few) individuals can take upon themselves mortality, but without the risk of falling from their station. If so, Adam and Eve were probably part of that group. But that’s a discussion for a later time

But if the third part rejected to participate in the plan of God (though they are still playing a role according to our teachings) then they are not part of the redemption and resurrection that His plan provides for those who choose Him.

Yes, we assume it’s a body they were rejected. Because that’s what we gain by being born. It’s also what we are reunited with after death and separation. If they were sent to earth (which the scriptures state) then they were sent here by a different means and in a different state than we have been sent here. This is obvious and I believe agreed upon.

Will they ever get a body? It’s believed they will not.

I simply do not believe in MMP as I understand it to be.
Multiple mortal probations means many of this same life or mortality and being in a state of probation. If we come back after being perfected as a Adam or Eve or Savior then it’s most certainly not the same life as this one. The belief of MMP is simply reincarnation and this is false. It has to be or the gospel we teach and preach is not correct. And if I knew I would come back here again to live another life then I wouldn’t be sitting here wasting my time debating the cosmos, I would be out enjoying it with no pressure to be any particular way or have any particular belief system. It would actually be very depressing to know that I would have to do this all over again, lol. To me, it’s not worth it at all. I want one life, not many. I want to be me and no one else. I want to just become my best self as myself. I don’t want to be an Eve or a Mary.

I wouldn't worry about it, friend. If there's another life (or many) ahead for you, you'll be totally up to the task.

And, hey, if I'm totally wrong, and get to the other side to find out that this was it, well, I am doing my darndest to live in such a way that I won't have any regrets and will honestly be able say I did the best I could and will breathe a huge sigh of relief that it's over. Then I'll come find you and admit that you were right and I was wrong.

But if you suspend your beliefs for just a moment and assume there is more than one round of lives, can't you see why it wouldn't be taught openly as part of the doctrine of salvation? Because it *does* matter what we do in this life. Just like it matters that we make good choices each and every day. If we don't, it's harder to play catch up later and we usually end up regretting our short-sightedness.

Also, just to clarify, while I am convinced that we live more than one life, I suspect the vast majority only live one life per round, meaning they wouldn't be born again to this Earth. Also, I don't know how if it's possible to get back on the ladder if you fall off, if you can climb up and down or only up, if there's 3 lives or 10 or a million...I trust I'll learn all those details as I need to know them.

[nightlight]

"So where did you live?"

"Oh, I was 440 AD, in Asia. I only made it to like 15 years old though. Attila the Hun slaughtered our town....

Both your protagonists were born without the Law....meaning they both qualify for the first resurrection

According to a literal reading of D&C 76, they'll inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom.

If you interpret the Terrestrial Kingdom the way most LDS do, as a place of permanent seperation from God the Father, that looks pretty bleak. Hence the tendency of many thinking Mormons to see the ressurection and the degrees of glory differently.

According to 76...Alvin would be relegated to Terrestrial, but he gets Celestial.... Obviously D&C doesn't give whole picture...hence your hence.

[Believing Joseph]

According to 76...Alvin would be relegated to Terrestrial, but he gets Celestial.... Obviously D&C doesn't give whole picture...hence your hence.

Then what do you make of 76:72 "These are they who died without law?"

Is it just a mistake, something to be ignored because it's contradicted by continuing revelation? Or is there more to the picture?

Obviously this doesn't have much to do with reincarnation per se, it's just the thing that makes the "Plan of Salvation," as presently understood by the folks who write the correlated manuals, unravel messily upon serious examination. Which led me to thinking about other ways to fit the pieces together.

[nightlight]

BY said a lot of things. His words are not doctrine.

True, but nonetheless this is pretty significant.

"until you attain to the resurrection of the dead and can sit in everlasting burnings'. (see King Follett Discourse)"
^^^^^so that kinda throws a wrench at what you are saying, it contradicts everything you are implying ....
Think about what JS was saying in a nonMMP context...

Going from exaltation to exaltation clearly means going from one stage to another. Jesus passed his final test by attaining to resurrection of the dead by way of working out the Atonement. Thus he is now at the stage of the Father, and can now sit in everlasting burnings.

The Resurrection has been happening since Christ was killed on the cross.
In "The Resurrection" ....all who qualify. ........WILL ATTAIN THEIR RESURRECTION.

You will get the same resurrection Jesus got...this is the point of Him.
We get what He has...what the Father has.

He meant the ability to resurrect others... if your thesis was true we wouldn't be going from 'exaltation to exaltation'.

No...thats what YOU think he meant.

You are not resurrected with a Celestial body...your body becomes Celestial when the Earth becomes Celestial(after the 1000 years)....exaltation to exaltation.

Or you can assume you will be Jesus...and that you will separated from your EXALTED BODY.
Don't try to use the scriptures to further this doctrine though...they stand in opposition to your "thesis"


45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

[nightlight]

According to 76...Alvin would be relegated to Terrestrial, but he gets Celestial.... Obviously D&C doesn't give whole picture...hence your hence.

Then what do you make of 76:72 "These are they who died without law?"

Is it just a mistake, something to be ignored because it's contradicted by continuing revelation? Or is there more to the picture?

Obviously this doesn't have much to do with reincarnation per se, it's just the thing that makes the "Plan of Salvation," as presently understood by the folks who write the correlated manuals, unravel messily upon serious examination. Which led me to thinking about other ways to fit the pieces together.

Honestly....these contradictions do appear in D&C. Maybe JS made mistakes,maybe they were changed. IDK.

I do know JS said that BoM was the most correct. Lol meaning the others were LESS correct

[Alexander]

Unless one chooses "for themselves" to allow death to have power over them once again for the benefit of their posterity, and by extension, their own progression.

"Nevertheless, the must choose for themselves..."

The temple is very clear on this fact.

The people who chose to reject the Savior in the pre-existence were essentially punished for their rebellion or at the very least denied the blessings. So if people choose to deny their perfected bodies and caste it off, how are they not doing the same thing?

That’s assuming that the gift that was rejected by the 1/3 was a body, which it doesn’t say in the scriptures. We make the assumption that what they rejected was a body, when what the scriptures say is that they rejected the Chosen One.

In addition, because a redemption was already prepared and a Savior provided, they weren’t really “casting off” their bodies. They would be resurrected again. That’s the beauty of the plan! What a blessing that God’s children can continue to progress in a mortal sphere (the best condition in which to develop and learn) without the inevitable “death and hell” that Nephi spoke of, and still be saved.

From one grace to another.

There’s also the question of what it means to “go no more out,” which is all over scripture. There’s evidence that it refers to a point that certain (likely a very, very select few) individuals can take upon themselves mortality, but without the risk of falling from their station. If so, Adam and Eve were probably part of that group. But that’s a discussion for a later time

But if the third part rejected to participate in the plan of God (though they are still playing a role according to our teachings) then they are not part of the redemption and resurrection that His plan provides for those who choose Him.

Yes, we assume it’s a body they were rejected. Because that’s what we gain by being born. It’s also what we are reunited with after death and separation. If they were sent to earth (which the scriptures state) then they were sent here by a different means and in a different state than we have been sent here. This is obvious and I believe agreed upon.

Will they ever get a body? It’s believed they will not.

I simply do not believe in MMP as I understand it to be.
Multiple mortal probations means many of this same life or mortality and being in a state of probation. If we come back after being perfected as a Adam or Eve or Savior then it’s most certainly not the same life as this one. The belief of MMP is simply reincarnation and this is false. It has to be or the gospel we teach and preach is not correct. And if I knew I would come back here again to live another life then I wouldn’t be sitting here wasting my time debating the cosmos, I would be out enjoying it with no pressure to be any particular way or have any particular belief system. It would actually be very depressing to know that I would have to do this all over again, lol. To me, it’s not worth it at all. I want one life, not many. I want to be me and no one else. I want to just become my best self as myself. I don’t want to be an Eve or a Mary.

Can’t sons of perdition receive bodies?

[MMbelieve]

The people who chose to reject the Savior in the pre-existence were essentially punished for their rebellion or at the very least denied the blessings. So if people choose to deny their perfected bodies and caste it off, how are they not doing the same thing?

That’s assuming that the gift that was rejected by the 1/3 was a body, which it doesn’t say in the scriptures. We make the assumption that what they rejected was a body, when what the scriptures say is that they rejected the Chosen One.

In addition, because a redemption was already prepared and a Savior provided, they weren’t really “casting off” their bodies. They would be resurrected again. That’s the beauty of the plan! What a blessing that God’s children can continue to progress in a mortal sphere (the best condition in which to develop and learn) without the inevitable “death and hell” that Nephi spoke of, and still be saved.

From one grace to another.

There’s also the question of what it means to “go no more out,” which is all over scripture. There’s evidence that it refers to a point that certain (likely a very, very select few) individuals can take upon themselves mortality, but without the risk of falling from their station. If so, Adam and Eve were probably part of that group. But that’s a discussion for a later time

But if the third part rejected to participate in the plan of God (though they are still playing a role according to our teachings) then they are not part of the redemption and resurrection that His plan provides for those who choose Him.

Yes, we assume it’s a body they were rejected. Because that’s what we gain by being born. It’s also what we are reunited with after death and separation. If they were sent to earth (which the scriptures state) then they were sent here by a different means and in a different state than we have been sent here. This is obvious and I believe agreed upon.

Will they ever get a body? It’s believed they will not.

I simply do not believe in MMP as I understand it to be.
Multiple mortal probations means many of this same life or mortality and being in a state of probation. If we come back after being perfected as a Adam or Eve or Savior then it’s most certainly not the same life as this one. The belief of MMP is simply reincarnation and this is false. It has to be or the gospel we teach and preach is not correct. And if I knew I would come back here again to live another life then I wouldn’t be sitting here wasting my time debating the cosmos, I would be out enjoying it with no pressure to be any particular way or have any particular belief system. It would actually be very depressing to know that I would have to do this all over again, lol. To me, it’s not worth it at all. I want one life, not many. I want to be me and no one else. I want to just become my best self as myself. I don’t want to be an Eve or a Mary.

Can’t sons of perdition receive bodies?

If they were born into one of course.

[nightlight]

The people who chose to reject the Savior in the pre-existence were essentially punished for their rebellion or at the very least denied the blessings. So if people choose to deny their perfected bodies and caste it off, how are they not doing the same thing?

That’s assuming that the gift that was rejected by the 1/3 was a body, which it doesn’t say in the scriptures. We make the assumption that what they rejected was a body, when what the scriptures say is that they rejected the Chosen One.

In addition, because a redemption was already prepared and a Savior provided, they weren’t really “casting off” their bodies. They would be resurrected again. That’s the beauty of the plan! What a blessing that God’s children can continue to progress in a mortal sphere (the best condition in which to develop and learn) without the inevitable “death and hell” that Nephi spoke of, and still be saved.

From one grace to another.

There’s also the question of what it means to “go no more out,” which is all over scripture. There’s evidence that it refers to a point that certain (likely a very, very select few) individuals can take upon themselves mortality, but without the risk of falling from their station. If so, Adam and Eve were probably part of that group. But that’s a discussion for a later time

But if the third part rejected to participate in the plan of God (though they are still playing a role according to our teachings) then they are not part of the redemption and resurrection that His plan provides for those who choose Him.

Yes, we assume it’s a body they were rejected. Because that’s what we gain by being born. It’s also what we are reunited with after death and separation. If they were sent to earth (which the scriptures state) then they were sent here by a different means and in a different state than we have been sent here. This is obvious and I believe agreed upon.

Will they ever get a body? It’s believed they will not.

I simply do not believe in MMP as I understand it to be.
Multiple mortal probations means many of this same life or mortality and being in a state of probation. If we come back after being perfected as a Adam or Eve or Savior then it’s most certainly not the same life as this one. The belief of MMP is simply reincarnation and this is false. It has to be or the gospel we teach and preach is not correct. And if I knew I would come back here again to live another life then I wouldn’t be sitting here wasting my time debating the cosmos, I would be out enjoying it with no pressure to be any particular way or have any particular belief system. It would actually be very depressing to know that I would have to do this all over again, lol. To me, it’s not worth it at all. I want one life, not many. I want to be me and no one else. I want to just become my best self as myself. I don’t want to be an Eve or a Mary.

Can’t sons of perdition receive bodies?

No...they rejected the Plan. Will Satan receive a body??? No. The same goes for all who followed his plan. Those who commit the One Sin end up with them.

All people are born with the Light of Christ...Satan has no part in this. Their role is temptation/opposition. Hence their insanity&hate

[Jamescm]

I disagree with the concept of multiple mortal probations. I'm less certain about living again to fulfill a special role, such as Adam and Eve did or Jesus Christ. I still doubt that they lived in mortality prior to their actions in the scriptures, but it doesn't seem as "obviously not true" as MMP. In an even less mortality-centric paradigm, it may be that there are different "lives" that we ascend to, or work out different "days" or periods between them, as immortal beings.

Baptism for the dead is necessary because, save specifically for children, baptism is a requirement for exaltation, whether or not a given man or woman is aware of that requirement.

There is a vast world of spirits post-mortality that is also a place where we will hear the gospel and have the opportunity to accept and, to whatever extent possible, live it.

Was it not also stated that the Telestial Kingdom exceeded the joy and glory of mortality such that, could we view it, many would end their lives and settle for it? That doesn't sound like any possible repeat of normal mortality.

[nightlight]

And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the aLord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his bfinger. And the cveil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared dfell down before the Lord, for he was struck with efear.

7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should asmite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me aflesh and blood; and never has man come before me with bsuch exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, ashow thyself unto me.

11 And the Lord said unto him: aBelievest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and acanst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord ashowed himself unto him, and said: bBecause thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my cpresence; therefore I dshow myself unto you.

14 Behold, I am he who was aprepared from the foundation of the world to bredeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the cFather and the Son. In me shall all mankind have dlife, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my esons and my daughters.

15 And never have I ashowed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man bbelieved in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own cimage? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this abody, which ye now bbehold, is the cbody of my dspirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could anot make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he bshowed himself unto the Nephites.

18 And he ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites; and all this, that this man might know that he was God, because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him.

19 And because of the aknowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the bveil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had cfaith no longer, for he knew, nothing ddoubting.

20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could anot be kept from within the veil; therefore he bsaw Jesus; and he did minister unto him.

21 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard to go forth unto the world, until the atime cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall btreasure up the things which ye have seen and heard, and show it to no man.

22 And behold, when ye shall come unto me, ye shall write them and shall seal them up, that no one can interpret them; for ye shall write them in a alanguage that they cannot be read.

23 And behold, these atwo stones will I give unto thee, and ye shall seal them up also with the things which ye shall write.

24 For behold, the alanguage which ye shall write I have confounded; wherefore I will cause in my own due time that these stones shall magnify to the eyes of men these things which ye shall write.

25 And when the Lord had said these words, he ashowed unto the brother of Jared ball the inhabitants of the earth which had been, and also all that would be; and he cwithheld them not from his sight, even unto the ends of the earth.

26 For he had said unto him in times before, that aif he would bbelieve in him that he could show unto him call things—it should be shown unto him; therefore the Lord could not withhold anything from him, for he knew that the Lord could show him all things.

27 And the Lord said unto him: Write these things and aseal them up; and I will show them in mine own due time unto the children of men.

28 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded him that he should seal up the two astones which he had received, and show them not, until the Lord should show them unto the children of bmen.

[Art Vandelay]

Multiple mortal probation or mortality's is a false teaching that smacks the sealing powers of the Priesthood and the atonement of Christ in the face. But if it's true then I'm glad Elvis gets another life to die another way.

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