Multiple mortalities?

[kirtland r.m.]

I haven't read all of the posts on this subject, so sorry if this has been addressed, but along the scripture I have posted earlier against m.m.'s, it defies logic. The only way this would even be beneficial is if you retained memories of past lives to help not make similar mistakes in the future, just as we remember our mistakes throughout mortality, even if we repent, and remember the sting of sin and it's result. This m.m. makes no sense to me.

[Durzan]

Bump.

Also cleared out a couple duplicate posts.

[righteousrepublic]

I see MMP doctrine as a doctrine so full of holes, it looks like Swiss cheese.

The Plan of Salvation as presently taught by the LDS church is also full of holes. Just ask yourself:

1) Why does D&C 76:72 say that "they who died without law" will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom, even though the modern LDS interpretation is that they can inherit the Celestial Kingdom because of temple work?

D&C 137:7-10
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

2) Why do the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham talk about how being tested on Earth is essential to our eternal journey, if most people are going to be tested only in the spirit world, or (for children who died before age 8) not at all? God will try, prove and test all the righteous on earth to see who will remain faithful in keeping the commandments and continue to seek God.

Hebrews 4:15
15 For we have not an high priest (Jesus) which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Doctrine and Covenants 58:2
2 For verily I say unto you, blessed is he that keepeth my commandments, whether in life or in death; and he that is faithful in tribulation, the reward of the same is greater in the kingdom of heaven.

3) If Jesus was God before his birth, and our progression towars exaltation requires us to have a mortal experience, and all of the Gods became Gods in the same way, then wouldn't that make Jesus a reincarnated being? No! Each God has their own dominion, principalities and portion of space. Elohim and his firstborn Son are the only Gods in their own sphere. When any of us become a God, we will have our own portion of space to run our own worlds.

4) Why did Jesus claim that Elijah and John the Baptist are the same person?

Elias

There are several uses of this word in the scriptures. (1) It is the New Testament (Greek) form of Elijah (Hebrew), as in Luke 4:25–26, James 5:17, and Matt. 17:1–4. Elias in these instances can only be the ancient prophet Elijah whose ministry is recorded in 1 and 2 Kings. The curious wording of JST Mark 9:3 does not imply that the Elias at the Transfiguration was John the Baptist, but that in addition to Elijah the prophet, John the Baptist was present (see Mark 9:4 note a).

(2) Elias is also a title for one who is a forerunner; for example, John the Baptist, as in JST Matt. 11:13–15, JST Matt. 17:10–14, and JST John 1:20–28 (Appendix). These passages are sufficiently clarified to show that anciently two Eliases were spoken of, one as a preparer and the other a restorer. John was sent to prepare the way for Jesus, Jesus Himself being the Restorer who brought back the gospel and the Melchizedek Priesthood to the Jews in His day (see JST John 1:20–28 [Appendix]). In this particular instance there is reflected also the comparative functions of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods.

(3) The title Elias has also been applied to many others for specific missions or restorative functions that they are to fulfill; for example, John the Revelator (D&C 77:14) and Noah or Gabriel (Luke 1:11–20; D&C 27:6–7).

(4) A man called Elias apparently lived in mortality in the days of Abraham, who committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland (Ohio) Temple on April 3, 1836 (D&C 110:12). We have no specific information as to the details of his mortal life or ministry.

Thus the word Elias has many applications and has been placed upon many persons as a title pertaining to both preparatory and restorative functions. It is evident from the questions they asked that both the Jewish leaders and the disciples of Jesus knew something about the doctrine of Elias, but the fragmentary information in our current Bibles is not sufficient to give an adequate understanding of what was involved in use of the term. Only by divine revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith is this topic brought into focus for us who live in the last days.

Some people believe in reincarnation because it makes sense of these problems in something like the following manner:

Choosing to live as Christians in mortality is essential for ressurection into the Celestial Kingdom. Those who die without law (or don't accept the fullness of the gospel for reasons not quite worthy of hell fire) will at best inherit the Terreatrial Kingdom Their state is not oermanent and they are free to be reborn on Earth; only the vilest sinners fall out of the cycle completely. MMP is false doctrine. The rest has been explained.

You are totally right about there being nothing in the Standard Works to support this. At the same time, it's apparent that something big is missing from the picture as it is currently constructed by the LDS church. Hence the rampant speculation about reincarnation. Scriptures prove there is no such thing as reincarnation. This life is the time to prepare to meet God.

[jmack]

I haven't read all of the posts on this subject, so sorry if this has been addressed, but along the scripture I have posted earlier against m.m.'s, it defies logic. The only way this would even be beneficial is if you retained memories of past lives to help not make similar mistakes in the future, just as we remember our mistakes throughout mortality, even if we repent, and remember the sting of sin and it's result. This m.m. makes no sense to me.

Excellent observation. It was many pages ago, but I think the question was why some claim to remember an event they think was from another life a long time ago and thought this was because they lived it. I believe they had a memory of watching someone else, who they were a guardian over or loved and cared about. We were in spirit form before we came and we had relationships and responsibilities. But this is our time on earth and we shouldn't waste it wishing we could have a do over. If this life sucks, fix it by fixing yourself. Stop wishing you were somebody else. Iyam.

[Zathura]

I haven't read all of the posts on this subject, so sorry if this has been addressed, but along the scripture I have posted earlier against m.m.'s, it defies logic. The only way this would even be beneficial is if you retained memories of past lives to help not make similar mistakes in the future, just as we remember our mistakes throughout mortality, even if we repent, and remember the sting of sin and it's result. This m.m. makes no sense to me.

Not necessarily .

I think, in the hypothetical case that this is a true doctrine, that if you went through life and made positive steps following the light of Christ to choose good, that in the next life the spirit within you would have that tendency to choose good over evil, even if you don’t have a memory of prior events. Think of it like the google cloud, or iCloud. You have a new phone, but the cloud is backed up, the assistant still knows your tendencies that changed over time that will be present on the new phone from the moment you get it.

In the event that you are born of God in this life, your glory is literally added upon and multiplied, and you are sealed to Christ, becoming is Son or Daughter. In the hypothetical situation that this is a true doctrine, those are the people that are pre-ordained for the next “cycle”, and having already chosen good over evil and been sealed by God, this next cycle the spirit within you would choose good over evil because it’s no longer a “telestial” body or a “terrestrial “ state and would have a greater.. mastery? Over the body, perhaps.

That’s the idea that I see anyway.

[Alexander]

I haven't read all of the posts on this subject, so sorry if this has been addressed, but along the scripture I have posted earlier against m.m.'s, it defies logic. The only way this would even be beneficial is if you retained memories of past lives to help not make similar mistakes in the future, just as we remember our mistakes throughout mortality, even if we repent, and remember the sting of sin and it's result. This m.m. makes no sense to me.

Not necessarily .

I think, in the hypothetical case that this is a true doctrine, that if you went through life and made positive steps following the light of Christ to choose good, that in the next life the spirit within you would have that tendency to choose good over evil, even if you don’t have a memory of prior events.

In the event that you are born of God in this life, your glory is literally added upon and multiplied, and you are sealed to Christ, becoming is Son or Daughter. In the hypothetical situation that this is a true doctrine, those are the people that are pre-ordained for the next “cycle”, and having already chosen good over evil and been sealed by God, this next cycle the spirit within you would choose good over evil because it’s no longer a “telestial” body or a “terrestrial “ state and would have a greater.. mastery? Over the body, perhaps.

That’s the idea that I see anyway.

I could see it that way

[The Airbender]

I haven't read all of the posts on this subject, so sorry if this has been addressed, but along the scripture I have posted earlier against m.m.'s, it defies logic. The only way this would even be beneficial is if you retained memories of past lives to help not make similar mistakes in the future, just as we remember our mistakes throughout mortality, even if we repent, and remember the sting of sin and it's result. This m.m. makes no sense to me.

Not necessarily .

I think, in the hypothetical case that this is a true doctrine, that if you went through life and made positive steps following the light of Christ to choose good, that in the next life the spirit within you would have that tendency to choose good over evil, even if you don’t have a memory of prior events. Think of it like the google cloud, or iCloud. You have a new phone, but the cloud is backed up, the assistant still knows your tendencies that changed over time that will be present on the new phone from the moment you get it.

In the event that you are born of God in this life, your glory is literally added upon and multiplied, and you are sealed to Christ, becoming is Son or Daughter. In the hypothetical situation that this is a true doctrine, those are the people that are pre-ordained for the next “cycle”, and having already chosen good over evil and been sealed by God, this next cycle the spirit within you would choose good over evil because it’s no longer a “telestial” body or a “terrestrial “ state and would have a greater.. mastery? Over the body, perhaps.

That’s the idea that I see anyway.

Exactly. It's like we are Iron Man, getting new suits. We are always Tony Stark, but our suits change. Each life we grow more. It is not, try try try until we succeed. If Tony failed, he had to deal with it. There was no rebooting the consequences and effects of his choices, but he could build a new suit.

[jmack]

I see MMP doctrine as a doctrine so full of holes, it looks like Swiss cheese.

The Plan of Salvation as presently taught by the LDS church is also full of holes. Just ask yourself:

1) Why does D&C 76:72 say that "they who died without law" will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom, even though the modern LDS interpretation is that they can inherit the Celestial Kingdom because of temple work?
because the book of Mormon says so and the d&c is describing those who die without law and don't accept christ, they don't contradict
2) Why do the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham talk about how being tested on Earth is essential to our eternal journey, if most people are going to be tested only in the spirit world, or (for children who died before age 8) not at all?
thats easy, but answers in scriptures. We are all different and require different tests and some will live in the millennium for their time of testing because all they received was mortal body and tests are individual to each.
3) If Jesus was God before his birth, and our progression towars exaltation requires us to have a mortal experience, and all of the Gods became Gods in the same way, then wouldn't that make Jesus a reincarnated being?There are other answers but with our limited knowledge we aren't capable of comprehending. Jesus is not reincarnated, that's mortal thinking to try to understand what you can't understand at this time.

4) Why did Jesus claim that Elijah and John the Baptist are the same person?he didn't say that. He said elijah or elias is a forerunner and john the baptist was an elias, a forerunner, they were the same in their mission on earth, not the same person. Easy peasy

Some people believe in reincarnation because it makes sense of these problems in something like the following manner:some people are stuck in the philosophies of men mingled with scriptures they've mangled. Don't listen to those who know less than you do.

Choosing to live as Christians in mortality is essential for ressurection into the Celestial Kingdom. Those who die without law (or don't accept the fullness of the gospel for reasons not quite worthy of hell fire) will at best inherit the Terreatrial Kingdom Their state is not oermanent and they are free to be reborn on Earth; only the vilest sinners fall out of the cycle completely.as i said, a wrong understanding of that scripture.

You are totally right about there being nothing in the Standard Works to support this. At the same time, it's apparent that something big is missing from the picture as it is currently constructed by the LDS church. Hence the rampant speculation about reincarnation.

Rampant speculation is because too many are searching unprotected by a sound faith and being deceived by satan. Too many will listen to any tom dick or harry who tells them smooth things that they like to hear. Too many ignore the true prophet's voice and get lost in neo gnosticism that will possibly take them into forbidden paths.You said it yourself, it's not in the scriptures and the scriptures even reject reincarnation. The gospel of Jesus Christ includes temple work for the dead who can't do it for themselves. Jesus wouldn't have set up a doctrine and waste our time by insisting on dead works, because he's not satan! But satan would sure do that, so if you want to believe in reincarnation you'll have to concede that satan is the founder of the lds church. I know what I know, and it's that Jesus is the founder of his church and satan desires to sift it's members as wheat. Pray to not be deceived and stay grounded in scriptures, the word of living prophets and faith in what christ gave us.

[Zathura]

The more you know, the more you know you don’t know. If you think you know what you know, you’ll eventually know you know relatively nothing at all.

[Believing Joseph]

I see MMP doctrine as a doctrine so full of holes, it looks like Swiss cheese.

The Plan of Salvation as presently taught by the LDS church is also full of holes. Just ask yourself:

1) Why does D&C 76:72 say that "they who died without law" will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom, even though the modern LDS interpretation is that they can inherit the Celestial Kingdom because of temple work?

D&C 137:7-10
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

2) Why do the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham talk about how being tested on Earth is essential to our eternal journey, if most people are going to be tested only in the spirit world, or (for children who died before age 8) not at all? God will try, prove and test all the righteous on earth to see who will remain faithful in keeping the commandments and continue to seek God.

Hebrews 4:15
15 For we have not an high priest (Jesus) which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Doctrine and Covenants 58:2
2 For verily I say unto you, blessed is he that keepeth my commandments, whether in life or in death; and he that is faithful in tribulation, the reward of the same is greater in the kingdom of heaven.

3) If Jesus was God before his birth, and our progression towars exaltation requires us to have a mortal experience, and all of the Gods became Gods in the same way, then wouldn't that make Jesus a reincarnated being? No! Each God has their own dominion, principalities and portion of space. Elohim and his firstborn Son are the only Gods in their own sphere. When any of us become a God, we will have our own portion of space to run our own worlds.

4) Why did Jesus claim that Elijah and John the Baptist are the same person?

Elias

There are several uses of this word in the scriptures. (1) It is the New Testament (Greek) form of Elijah (Hebrew), as in Luke 4:25–26, James 5:17, and Matt. 17:1–4. Elias in these instances can only be the ancient prophet Elijah whose ministry is recorded in 1 and 2 Kings. The curious wording of JST Mark 9:3 does not imply that the Elias at the Transfiguration was John the Baptist, but that in addition to Elijah the prophet, John the Baptist was present (see Mark 9:4 note a).

(2) Elias is also a title for one who is a forerunner; for example, John the Baptist, as in JST Matt. 11:13–15, JST Matt. 17:10–14, and JST John 1:20–28 (Appendix). These passages are sufficiently clarified to show that anciently two Eliases were spoken of, one as a preparer and the other a restorer. John was sent to prepare the way for Jesus, Jesus Himself being the Restorer who brought back the gospel and the Melchizedek Priesthood to the Jews in His day (see JST John 1:20–28 [Appendix]). In this particular instance there is reflected also the comparative functions of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods.

(3) The title Elias has also been applied to many others for specific missions or restorative functions that they are to fulfill; for example, John the Revelator (D&C 77:14) and Noah or Gabriel (Luke 1:11–20; D&C 27:6–7).

(4) A man called Elias apparently lived in mortality in the days of Abraham, who committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland (Ohio) Temple on April 3, 1836 (D&C 110:12). We have no specific information as to the details of his mortal life or ministry.

Thus the word Elias has many applications and has been placed upon many persons as a title pertaining to both preparatory and restorative functions. It is evident from the questions they asked that both the Jewish leaders and the disciples of Jesus knew something about the doctrine of Elias, but the fragmentary information in our current Bibles is not sufficient to give an adequate understanding of what was involved in use of the term. Only by divine revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith is this topic brought into focus for us who live in the last days.

Some people believe in reincarnation because it makes sense of these problems in something like the following manner:

Choosing to live as Christians in mortality is essential for ressurection into the Celestial Kingdom. Those who die without law (or don't accept the fullness of the gospel for reasons not quite worthy of hell fire) will at best inherit the Terreatrial Kingdom Their state is not oermanent and they are free to be reborn on Earth; only the vilest sinners fall out of the cycle completely. MMP is false doctrine. The rest has been explained.

You are totally right about there being nothing in the Standard Works to support this. At the same time, it's apparent that something big is missing from the picture as it is currently constructed by the LDS church. Hence the rampant speculation about reincarnation. Scriptures prove there is no such thing as reincarnation. This life is the time to prepare to meet God.

You quote D&C 137 in opposition to my quote from D&C 76, but you never actually explaimed why D&C 76:72 is there at all if it is just meant to be ignored. Seriously, no one who holds to the standard LDS plan of salvation has ever explained that one, as far as I am aware.

Also, you continue to mischaracterize believers in reincarnation as people who think that their current lifetime is unimportant because they will get unlimited tries to do things right. The thing is, I have never supported this view. People have varying degrees of accountability, that is all. Standard LDS doctrine accepts this anyway; they just locate the second chances (for those who get them) in the spirit world rather than in another lifetime on Earth. It's not as different as you like to think.

[Alaris]

In case this hasn't been suggested in this thread - pray ... plant the seed ... study...ponder...pray throughout. Submit your will to God's. Ask the Lord for help in recognizing truth as you study and pray to confirm those truths.

[righteousrepublic]

I see MMP doctrine as a doctrine so full of holes, it looks like Swiss cheese.

The Plan of Salvation as presently taught by the LDS church is also full of holes. Just ask yourself:

1) Why does D&C 76:72 say that "they who died without law" will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom, even though the modern LDS interpretation is that they can inherit the Celestial Kingdom because of temple work?

D&C 137:7-10
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

2) Why do the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham talk about how being tested on Earth is essential to our eternal journey, if most people are going to be tested only in the spirit world, or (for children who died before age 8) not at all? God will try, prove and test all the righteous on earth to see who will remain faithful in keeping the commandments and continue to seek God.

Hebrews 4:15
15 For we have not an high priest (Jesus) which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Doctrine and Covenants 58:2
2 For verily I say unto you, blessed is he that keepeth my commandments, whether in life or in death; and he that is faithful in tribulation, the reward of the same is greater in the kingdom of heaven.

3) If Jesus was God before his birth, and our progression towars exaltation requires us to have a mortal experience, and all of the Gods became Gods in the same way, then wouldn't that make Jesus a reincarnated being? No! Each God has their own dominion, principalities and portion of space. Elohim and his firstborn Son are the only Gods in their own sphere. When any of us become a God, we will have our own portion of space to run our own worlds.

4) Why did Jesus claim that Elijah and John the Baptist are the same person?

Elias

There are several uses of this word in the scriptures. (1) It is the New Testament (Greek) form of Elijah (Hebrew), as in Luke 4:25–26, James 5:17, and Matt. 17:1–4. Elias in these instances can only be the ancient prophet Elijah whose ministry is recorded in 1 and 2 Kings. The curious wording of JST Mark 9:3 does not imply that the Elias at the Transfiguration was John the Baptist, but that in addition to Elijah the prophet, John the Baptist was present (see Mark 9:4 note a).

(2) Elias is also a title for one who is a forerunner; for example, John the Baptist, as in JST Matt. 11:13–15, JST Matt. 17:10–14, and JST John 1:20–28 (Appendix). These passages are sufficiently clarified to show that anciently two Eliases were spoken of, one as a preparer and the other a restorer. John was sent to prepare the way for Jesus, Jesus Himself being the Restorer who brought back the gospel and the Melchizedek Priesthood to the Jews in His day (see JST John 1:20–28 [Appendix]). In this particular instance there is reflected also the comparative functions of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods.

(3) The title Elias has also been applied to many others for specific missions or restorative functions that they are to fulfill; for example, John the Revelator (D&C 77:14) and Noah or Gabriel (Luke 1:11–20; D&C 27:6–7).

(4) A man called Elias apparently lived in mortality in the days of Abraham, who committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland (Ohio) Temple on April 3, 1836 (D&C 110:12). We have no specific information as to the details of his mortal life or ministry.

Thus the word Elias has many applications and has been placed upon many persons as a title pertaining to both preparatory and restorative functions. It is evident from the questions they asked that both the Jewish leaders and the disciples of Jesus knew something about the doctrine of Elias, but the fragmentary information in our current Bibles is not sufficient to give an adequate understanding of what was involved in use of the term. Only by divine revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith is this topic brought into focus for us who live in the last days.

Some people believe in reincarnation because it makes sense of these problems in something like the following manner:

Choosing to live as Christians in mortality is essential for ressurection into the Celestial Kingdom. Those who die without law (or don't accept the fullness of the gospel for reasons not quite worthy of hell fire) will at best inherit the Terreatrial Kingdom Their state is not oermanent and they are free to be reborn on Earth; only the vilest sinners fall out of the cycle completely. MMP is false doctrine. The rest has been explained.

You are totally right about there being nothing in the Standard Works to support this. At the same time, it's apparent that something big is missing from the picture as it is currently constructed by the LDS church. Hence the rampant speculation about reincarnation. Scriptures prove there is no such thing as reincarnation. This life is the time to prepare to meet God.

You quote D&C 137 in opposition to my quote from D&C 76, but you never actually explaimed why D&C 76:72 is there at all if it is just meant to be ignored. Seriously, no one who holds to the standard LDS plan of salvation has ever explained that one, as far as I am aware.

Also, you continue to mischaracterize believers in reincarnation as people who think that their current lifetime is unimportant because they will get unlimited tries to do things right. The thing is, I have never supported this view. People have varying degrees of accountability, that is all. Standard LDS doctrine accepts this anyway; they just locate the second chances (for those who get them) in the spirit world rather than in another lifetime on Earth. It's not as different as you like to think.

I didn't write 76:72 so I have no answer for you. I provided a different scripture that could help you understand what actually happens to those who have lived without the knowledge of the gospel, yet would have accepted it had their heard it.

[Hosh]

There is no such thing as Multiple Mortal Probations. The Book of Mormon is very clear on this point. Sure, we don't find an exact paragraph stating this, but upon reading the book several times, one can begin to collect little tidbits, and once they are all put together, we see that this life is all there is. I've posted these findings several times in other threads so I don't feel like doing it again.
However, MMP mocks the atonement and the plan of salvation, of which, is so simple to understand a caveman could grasp it.

Somebody, please, read Alma 40-42 and report point for point what happens to the righteous and the wicked.

Now what does Alma 11:45 reveal?
Revelation 21:4
Doctrine and Covenants 63:49
Doctrine and Covenants 88:116
Mormon 9:28
Helaman 13:38
2 Nephi 33:9
1 Nephi 10:21
2 Nephi 9:27
Doctrine and Covenants 29:43
1 Nephi 15:32
Enos 1:27
Mosiah 18:13
Doctrine and Covenants 88:29-31

Plus more. I'm not going to waste my time explaining all these, so I expect those who believe in MMP to read these and see that it doesn't exist. It is better to read for yourselves, to gain your own witness and testimony rather than take my word for it. Read these verses for what they actually convey, use cross references and pray about what you learn.

Do you understand all the mysteries of Godliness? Have you peered into the heavens? I know your going to ask, "HAVE YOU?!" No I have not. But I don't get on here and claim anything dealing with Gods mysteries to be matter of fact like you do.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many on here talk as if their paradigm is the only paradigm that exists and that they have some perfect knowledge of the heavens based off of their own personal understanding of the scriptures. You really don't know if MMP is true or false more than anyone else here who believes it's true. You might claim God told you, or that you have all the scriptural evidence in the world to back you up. Well, I can say the same thing about MMP being true. Everyone has things they believe they know more than everyone else, but the fact is, we really don't know with a perfect knowledge until we, like the Brother of Jared, recieve a perfect knowledge.

So why talk as if we know Anything perfectly? We dont. All it does is fill us with pride when we think we know any better than anyone else.

Did you read all the scriptures amply provided? Or is MMP going to be defended at any cost?

Yes I read the scriptures you posted. Believe it or not people who believe in mmp actually read the scriptures and feel that the scriptures support their paradigm just as much as you feel that they support yours. Have you not realized that the Gospel is full of paradoxes? The scriptures are not to be taken at face value. What you see on the surface level is not always the full iceberg, it's only the tip. I don't claim to understand all of the he mysteries, but you sure seem confident enough to slam others for their beliefs.

Why didnt you answer my question? Do you understand the whole bredth and depth of all of our standard works? Have you gazed into the heavens? Do you understand all of the mysteries of the kingdom? I don't, and until I do I will not get on here and tear others down for a belief that may very well be true. Or maybe not. You have no idea save your limited knowledge only, which is not a perfect knowledge. Why pretend you know anything for certain?

[righteousrepublic]

There is no such thing as Multiple Mortal Probations. The Book of Mormon is very clear on this point. Sure, we don't find an exact paragraph stating this, but upon reading the book several times, one can begin to collect little tidbits, and once they are all put together, we see that this life is all there is. I've posted these findings several times in other threads so I don't feel like doing it again.
However, MMP mocks the atonement and the plan of salvation, of which, is so simple to understand a caveman could grasp it.

Somebody, please, read Alma 40-42 and report point for point what happens to the righteous and the wicked.

Now what does Alma 11:45 reveal?
Revelation 21:4
Doctrine and Covenants 63:49
Doctrine and Covenants 88:116
Mormon 9:28
Helaman 13:38
2 Nephi 33:9
1 Nephi 10:21
2 Nephi 9:27
Doctrine and Covenants 29:43
1 Nephi 15:32
Enos 1:27
Mosiah 18:13
Doctrine and Covenants 88:29-31

Plus more. I'm not going to waste my time explaining all these, so I expect those who believe in MMP to read these and see that it doesn't exist. It is better to read for yourselves, to gain your own witness and testimony rather than take my word for it. Read these verses for what they actually convey, use cross references and pray about what you learn.

Do you understand all the mysteries of Godliness? Have you peered into the heavens? I know your going to ask, "HAVE YOU?!" No I have not. But I don't get on here and claim anything dealing with Gods mysteries to be matter of fact like you do.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many on here talk as if their paradigm is the only paradigm that exists and that they have some perfect knowledge of the heavens based off of their own personal understanding of the scriptures. You really don't know if MMP is true or false more than anyone else here who believes it's true. You might claim God told you, or that you have all the scriptural evidence in the world to back you up. Well, I can say the same thing about MMP being true. Everyone has things they believe they know more than everyone else, but the fact is, we really don't know with a perfect knowledge until we, like the Brother of Jared, recieve a perfect knowledge.

So why talk as if we know Anything perfectly? We dont. All it does is fill us with pride when we think we know any better than anyone else.

Did you read all the scriptures amply provided? Or is MMP going to be defended at any cost?

Yes I read the scriptures you posted. Believe it or not people who believe in mmp actually read the scriptures and feel that the scriptures support their paradigm just as much as you feel that they support yours. They have their agency. Have you not realized that the Gospel is full of paradoxes? Then why claim MMP is true? The scriptures are not to be taken at face value. Then read 2 Nephi 31:20 and 2 Nephi 32:3 and then tell me to not take scripture at face value. Besides, if you don't take scripture at face value, then why try to make them prove MMP? What you see on the surface level is not always the full iceberg, it's only the tip. I don't claim to understand all of the he mysteries, but you sure seem confident enough to slam others for their beliefs. I use the scriptures to slam beliefs not in line with scripture, this is the major difference. Why shouldn't I have confidence in them having been feasting on them?

Why didnt you answer my question? Do you understand the whole bredth and depth of all of our standard works? If I did that would be a sign of saying I have enough. Yet, by way of the Holy Ghost, I have a great understanding, yes. Have you gazed into the heavens? Absolutely, and often. Do you understand all of the mysteries of the kingdom? Well, I haven't been translated. I don't, and until I do I will not get on here and tear others down for a belief that may very well be true. I tear down the doctrine, not the messenger. Scripture does not support false doctrine. Or maybe not. You have no idea save your limited knowledge only, which is not a perfect knowledge. Why pretend you know anything for certain? Why pretend to know what I know, or don't know? You don't take scripture at face value, do you?

[Serragon]

I do not believe in MMP.

However, I would not have believed in 3 kingdoms of heaven prior to the revelation given to Joseph.

I am fully aware that our understanding of the pre-mortal and post-mortal existence is extremely limited.

[Hosh]

Do you understand all the mysteries of Godliness? Have you peered into the heavens? I know your going to ask, "HAVE YOU?!" No I have not. But I don't get on here and claim anything dealing with Gods mysteries to be matter of fact like you do.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many on here talk as if their paradigm is the only paradigm that exists and that they have some perfect knowledge of the heavens based off of their own personal understanding of the scriptures. You really don't know if MMP is true or false more than anyone else here who believes it's true. You might claim God told you, or that you have all the scriptural evidence in the world to back you up. Well, I can say the same thing about MMP being true. Everyone has things they believe they know more than everyone else, but the fact is, we really don't know with a perfect knowledge until we, like the Brother of Jared, recieve a perfect knowledge.

So why talk as if we know Anything perfectly? We dont. All it does is fill us with pride when we think we know any better than anyone else.

Did you read all the scriptures amply provided? Or is MMP going to be defended at any cost?

Yes I read the scriptures you posted. Believe it or not people who believe in mmp actually read the scriptures and feel that the scriptures support their paradigm just as much as you feel that they support yours. They have their agency. Have you not realized that the Gospel is full of paradoxes? Then why claim MMP is true? The scriptures are not to be taken at face value. Then read 2 Nephi 31:20 and 2 Nephi 32:3 and then tell me to not take scripture at face value. Besides, if you don't take scripture at face value, then why try to make them prove MMP? What you see on the surface level is not always the full iceberg, it's only the tip. I don't claim to understand all of the he mysteries, but you sure seem confident enough to slam others for their beliefs. I use the scriptures to slam beliefs not in line with scripture, this is the major difference. Why shouldn't I have confidence in them having been feasting on them?

Why didnt you answer my question? Do you understand the whole bredth and depth of all of our standard works? If I did that would be a sign of saying I have enough. Yet, by way of the Holy Ghost, I have a great understanding, yes. Have you gazed into the heavens? Absolutely, and often. Do you understand all of the mysteries of the kingdom? Well, I haven't been translated. I don't, and until I do I will not get on here and tear others down for a belief that may very well be true. I tear down the doctrine, not the messenger. Scripture does not support false doctrine. Or maybe not. You have no idea save your limited knowledge only, which is not a perfect knowledge. Why pretend you know anything for certain? Why pretend to know what I know, or don't know? You don't take scripture at face value, do you?

Well ok then. You seem to be very confident in your own learning and wisdom. No reason to go back and forth with someone who knows (or thinks they know) almost all there is to know.

[righteousrepublic]

Did you read all the scriptures amply provided? Or is MMP going to be defended at any cost?

Yes I read the scriptures you posted. Believe it or not people who believe in mmp actually read the scriptures and feel that the scriptures support their paradigm just as much as you feel that they support yours. They have their agency. Have you not realized that the Gospel is full of paradoxes? Then why claim MMP is true? The scriptures are not to be taken at face value. Then read 2 Nephi 31:20 and 2 Nephi 32:3 and then tell me to not take scripture at face value. Besides, if you don't take scripture at face value, then why try to make them prove MMP? What you see on the surface level is not always the full iceberg, it's only the tip. I don't claim to understand all of the he mysteries, but you sure seem confident enough to slam others for their beliefs. I use the scriptures to slam beliefs not in line with scripture, this is the major difference. Why shouldn't I have confidence in them having been feasting on them?

Why didnt you answer my question? Do you understand the whole bredth and depth of all of our standard works? If I did that would be a sign of saying I have enough. Yet, by way of the Holy Ghost, I have a great understanding, yes. Have you gazed into the heavens? Absolutely, and often. Do you understand all of the mysteries of the kingdom? Well, I haven't been translated. I don't, and until I do I will not get on here and tear others down for a belief that may very well be true. I tear down the doctrine, not the messenger. Scripture does not support false doctrine. Or maybe not. You have no idea save your limited knowledge only, which is not a perfect knowledge. Why pretend you know anything for certain? Why pretend to know what I know, or don't know? You don't take scripture at face value, do you?

Well ok then. You seem to be very confident in your own learning and wisdom. No reason to go back and forth with someone who knows (or thinks they know) almost all there is to know.

If it weren't for the Holy Ghost I would be lost and not know much of anything. But by the Holy Ghost I know the truth of many things.

Do you know what faith is? Faith is the assurance and evidence of things not seen. I don't see God but by faith I know he exists. I see in my minds eye, God sitting on his majestic throne and Jesus sitting at his right hand. I hope I can see myself one day standing before them and having them welcome me into their presence forever.

Do you know where hope comes from? It comes from faith.

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

Also, by feasting on the word of God we soon grow in confidence having his word permeating our mind and body. This is the promise.

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

This is what it takes to speak with confidence. There are times, however, that I have had to apologize for being off a little. I'm not beyond admitting when I err.

[Hosh]

Yes I read the scriptures you posted. Believe it or not people who believe in mmp actually read the scriptures and feel that the scriptures support their paradigm just as much as you feel that they support yours. They have their agency. Have you not realized that the Gospel is full of paradoxes? Then why claim MMP is true? The scriptures are not to be taken at face value. Then read 2 Nephi 31:20 and 2 Nephi 32:3 and then tell me to not take scripture at face value. Besides, if you don't take scripture at face value, then why try to make them prove MMP? What you see on the surface level is not always the full iceberg, it's only the tip. I don't claim to understand all of the he mysteries, but you sure seem confident enough to slam others for their beliefs. I use the scriptures to slam beliefs not in line with scripture, this is the major difference. Why shouldn't I have confidence in them having been feasting on them?

Why didnt you answer my question? Do you understand the whole bredth and depth of all of our standard works? If I did that would be a sign of saying I have enough. Yet, by way of the Holy Ghost, I have a great understanding, yes. Have you gazed into the heavens? Absolutely, and often. Do you understand all of the mysteries of the kingdom? Well, I haven't been translated. I don't, and until I do I will not get on here and tear others down for a belief that may very well be true. I tear down the doctrine, not the messenger. Scripture does not support false doctrine. Or maybe not. You have no idea save your limited knowledge only, which is not a perfect knowledge. Why pretend you know anything for certain? Why pretend to know what I know, or don't know? You don't take scripture at face value, do you?

Well ok then. You seem to be very confident in your own learning and wisdom. No reason to go back and forth with someone who knows (or thinks they know) almost all there is to know.

If it weren't for the Holy Ghost I would be lost and not know much of anything. But by the Holy Ghost I know the truth of many things.

Do you know what faith is? Faith is the assurance and evidence of things not seen. I don't see God but by faith I know he exists. I see in my minds eye, God sitting on his majestic throne and Jesus sitting at his right hand. I hope I can see myself one day standing before them and having them welcome me into their presence forever.

Do you know where hope comes from? It comes from faith.

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

Also, by feasting on the word of God we soon grow in confidence having his word permeating our mind and body. This is the promise.

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

This is what it takes to speak with confidence. There are times, however, that I have had to apologize for being off a little. I'm not beyond admitting when I err.

Just don't know if youve realized yet that your not the only one claiming these experiences with God. There are others that have claimed the same and more and have very different views from yours, and from their paradigm, the scriptures back up their views and prove yours wrong. It's better to recognize how little we know than to think we know so much. But like I said, your stuck in your own paradigm, thinking you know more than everyone else so I'm done. It's just not worth it. The Jews thought they knew the scriptures better than anyone and thought they were highly favored of God. Just worth considering that maybe were not so different.

[righteousrepublic]

Well ok then. You seem to be very confident in your own learning and wisdom. No reason to go back and forth with someone who knows (or thinks they know) almost all there is to know.

If it weren't for the Holy Ghost I would be lost and not know much of anything. But by the Holy Ghost I know the truth of many things.

Do you know what faith is? Faith is the assurance and evidence of things not seen. I don't see God but by faith I know he exists. I see in my minds eye, God sitting on his majestic throne and Jesus sitting at his right hand. I hope I can see myself one day standing before them and having them welcome me into their presence forever.

Do you know where hope comes from? It comes from faith.

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

Also, by feasting on the word of God we soon grow in confidence having his word permeating our mind and body. This is the promise.

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

This is what it takes to speak with confidence. There are times, however, that I have had to apologize for being off a little. I'm not beyond admitting when I err.

Just don't know if youve realized yet that your not the only one claiming these experiences with God. There are others that have claimed the same and more and have very different views from yours, and from their paradigm, the scriptures back up their views and prove yours wrong. It's better to recognize how little we know than to think we know so much. But like I said, your stuck in your own paradigm, thinking you know more than everyone else so I'm done. It's just not worth it. The Jews thought they knew the scriptures better than anyone and thought they were highly favored of God. Just worth considering that maybe were not so different.

I never once said I knew more than anyone else. These are your words, not mine. I am still learning but I know enough to not believe in MMP. Let me ask you this...how many times have you read the Book of Mormon cover to cover?

Did you know that knowing scripture is of no private interpretation, or private will of man?

JST 2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scriptures is given of any private will of man.

[Hosh]

Well ok then. You seem to be very confident in your own learning and wisdom. No reason to go back and forth with someone who knows (or thinks they know) almost all there is to know.

If it weren't for the Holy Ghost I would be lost and not know much of anything. But by the Holy Ghost I know the truth of many things.

Do you know what faith is? Faith is the assurance and evidence of things not seen. I don't see God but by faith I know he exists. I see in my minds eye, God sitting on his majestic throne and Jesus sitting at his right hand. I hope I can see myself one day standing before them and having them welcome me into their presence forever.

Do you know where hope comes from? It comes from faith.

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

Also, by feasting on the word of God we soon grow in confidence having his word permeating our mind and body. This is the promise.

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

This is what it takes to speak with confidence. There are times, however, that I have had to apologize for being off a little. I'm not beyond admitting when I err.

Just don't know if youve realized yet that your not the only one claiming these experiences with God. There are others that have claimed the same and more and have very different views from yours, and from their paradigm, the scriptures back up their views and prove yours wrong. It's better to recognize how little we know than to think we know so much. But like I said, your stuck in your own paradigm, thinking you know more than everyone else so I'm done. It's just not worth it. The Jews thought they knew the scriptures better than anyone and thought they were highly favored of God. Just worth considering that maybe were not so different.

I never once said I knew more than anyone else. These are your words, not mine. I am still learning but I know enough to not believe in MMP. Let me ask you this...how many times have you read the Book of Mormon cover to cover?

Did you know that knowing scripture is of no private interpretation, or private will of man?

JST 2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scriptures is given of any private will of man.

I know they are not your words, but I'm guessing I'm not alone in thinking this. The way you speak to others who don't share your views on this forum speaks for itself.

Answering that question (How many times have you read the BoM?) does nothing but feed ones pride. I've read it enough times and have a close enough relationship with God to know that I know nothing and that everything I think I know is either incorrect or incomplete. We have not even scratched the surface. I know people who've read it over 100 times and still don't know God any better than a homeless man on the street who has never heard of the Book of Mormon.

[righteousrepublic]

If it weren't for the Holy Ghost I would be lost and not know much of anything. But by the Holy Ghost I know the truth of many things.

Do you know what faith is? Faith is the assurance and evidence of things not seen. I don't see God but by faith I know he exists. I see in my minds eye, God sitting on his majestic throne and Jesus sitting at his right hand. I hope I can see myself one day standing before them and having them welcome me into their presence forever.

Do you know where hope comes from? It comes from faith.

Ether 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

Also, by feasting on the word of God we soon grow in confidence having his word permeating our mind and body. This is the promise.

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

This is what it takes to speak with confidence. There are times, however, that I have had to apologize for being off a little. I'm not beyond admitting when I err.

Just don't know if youve realized yet that your not the only one claiming these experiences with God. There are others that have claimed the same and more and have very different views from yours, and from their paradigm, the scriptures back up their views and prove yours wrong. It's better to recognize how little we know than to think we know so much. But like I said, your stuck in your own paradigm, thinking you know more than everyone else so I'm done. It's just not worth it. The Jews thought they knew the scriptures better than anyone and thought they were highly favored of God. Just worth considering that maybe were not so different.

I never once said I knew more than anyone else. These are your words, not mine. I am still learning but I know enough to not believe in MMP. Let me ask you this...how many times have you read the Book of Mormon cover to cover?

Did you know that knowing scripture is of no private interpretation, or private will of man?

JST 2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scriptures is given of any private will of man.

I know they are not your words, but I'm guessing I'm not alone in thinking this. The way you speak to others who don't share your views on this forum speaks for itself.

Answering that question (How many times have you read the BoM?) does nothing but feed ones pride. I've read it enough times and have a close enough relationship with God to know that I know nothing and that everything I think I know is either incorrect or incomplete. We have not even scratched the surface. I know people who've read it over 100 times and still don't know God any better than a homeless man on the street who has never heard of the Book of Mormon.

Okay!

[Silver Pie]

Did you read all the scriptures amply provided?

I've read scriptures after scriptures, trying to make sense of this doctrine. I have come to the conclusion that, for me, the best thing to do is to take the scriptures at face value that say this is the time to prepare, and that reassure me that if I am faithful to Christ, I will be saved in the kingdom of God. I find that ever so much more comforting than the threat of going into hell over and over again (either on this planet or some other one), always with the chance of losing whatever good level(s) I had previously attained.

So, for me, I will believe that this life is it. I will do my best to follow Christ and do his will for me, totally believing the doctrine in Alma that after this life I will literally be resurrected, my body and spirit never to be separated again.

[righteousrepublic]

Did you read all the scriptures amply provided?

I've read scriptures after scriptures, trying to make sense of this doctrine. I have come to the conclusion that, for me, the best thing to do is to take the scriptures at face value that say this is the time to prepare, and that reassure me that if I am faithful to Christ, I will be saved in the kingdom of God. I find that ever so much more comforting than the threat of going into hell over and over again (either on this planet or some other one), always with the chance of losing whatever good level(s) I had previously attained.

So, for me, I will believe that this life is it. I will do my best to follow Christ and do his will for me, totally believing the doctrine in Alma that after this life I will literally be resurrected, my body and spirit never to be separated again.

+1