Multiple mortalities?

[jmack]

Your understanding of baptism for the dead is nothing like what is my understanding or what we teach, it's very odd. I'm certain that's not what you were taught at church. Are these your own thoughts?

Most of that statement is from others. I’ve asked for confirmation on those things and have subscribed those ideas. I don’t credit the idea or words to my own creation. I’ve heard it from others and have sought revelation on the matter

Maybe you need to relearn the basic beliefs of the gospel so that you can discern what isn't compatible with what you already claim to believe. That stuff you shared is not part of why we do temple work, it's strange. I'd say read up on temple work and ordinances on lds.org and books by believing members who aren't trying to tell you they have secret knowledge.

We learn line upon line and precept upon precept. My opinion and beliefs are always subject to change, as long as I’m led by the spirit. If certain things have spiritually been confirmed to me by the lord, I believe Him.

Perhaps my views are strange. But strange doesn’t mean it’s wrong. I also don’t claim to have all truth or state everything I say is completely correct.I’m just a sinner searching for truth and asking as much questions as I can.

I believe temple ordinances symbolically point you to real encounters with God. I believe the true power of God in Jesus Christ saves us, and not temporal rites and rituals.

Tyler, you are welcome to hold any strange beliefs you want to, but here's how I determine if those beliefs are possibly true. They shouldn't contradict established, doctrine. They shouldn't contradict something as basic as temple work and genealogy. They shouldn't undermine the mission and work of the Savior or his atonement on our behalf. They should be compatible with the canon of scripture, in this case, the book of Mormon. And, red flags should go up if people who go off the deep end, start their own churches, have affairs, go inactive, get excommunicated, or start killing people, promote these same strange beliefs. That's kinda the way I look at mmp, because it's been a doctrine shared among these kinds of people who have problems . Before you get offended, I'm not accusing you or alaris or stahura, etc, I'm just saying that ive seen a lot of bad things associated with this particular doctrine. I'd say the fruits of mmp seem to be decaying and debilitating to the soul over time. I think you and others should be careful of its influence on you, your relationships with your family, friends and with your standing in the church. Iyam.

[Believing Joseph]

At some point you are going to have to admit that the church doesn't teach mmp in private. They will make a statement about mmp and say it is reincarnation and false doctrine, I can guarantee that will happen....

It's simply false to make claims that the leaders taught this in secret and still believe it in secret. That's typical gnostic garbage, alluding to having special knowlege, mysteries that the common members can't handle and aren't worthy to recieve....

I have no doubt at all that current LDS leaders do not secretly believe in reincarnation.

On the other hand, you can find plenty of evidence, as other commenters have already pointed out, that among earlier generations of Mormon leaders there were some who believed in it - i.e. Heber C. Kimball and Eliza R. Snow.

Present statements to the effect that reincarnation is a false doctrine will only be convincing to those who accept the maxim that "a living prophet is more important than a dead prophet," and it seems there are very few people on this forum who think that way.

[jmack]

I use the term reincarnation because that's what it's called these days and transmigration isnt really. Does it change my point? No, It's the same thing as what Joseph rejected, the belief that a soul would return to be born in a new body. To pretend like mmp is a valid, established doctrine of the lds church is ludicrous. I'm sure you are aware that people believed different things, but that didn't make it a doctrine of the church. I don't know what you are referring to as mistreatment of alaris, I've disagreed with him and others, but I haven't been disrespectful. I may be short with you, but seriously, you nag others about their tone etc, if they disagree with your friends on the forum, and it's tiring.

You’re but one of dozens of people who have interacted with Alaris on this topic over many different threads and pages , no need to make my post about you.

You also, as usual, disregard the bulk of the post that has very relevant information. Really there’s just no need for you to engage in discussions if you don’t actually want to evaluate what others have to say.

What is your contribution other than to criticize and accuse others?

You’re here criticizing Alaris, criticizing me, you criticize plenty of people.

I’ve seen The contribution that Alaris has made, ive seen many people thank him for leading them to revelations, for opening up their mind. I have no doubt he has received many private messages thanking him.

I personally have received thanks from people for my contribution, I’ve had people create an account literally just to tell me that they appreciate the contribution I made.

I can’t tell you why you don’t see what others see, sorry.

If you'll refer to my last post you'll maybe understand why I wouldn't be so warmed by knowing of the supportive messages and influence alaris has gotten in bringing people to believe mmp. Regardless of what some claim, mmp is not lds doctrine, I'll continue to hammer that point, because it is true. It's a theory that has been around a while, ebbed and flowed in popularity, like other theories and lately has gained notoriety by some who believe in it. Church leaders aren't secretly believing it but not teaching it in public and I guarantee you the leaders will speak out against it, likely in the near future as its becomes more public knowledge. So, I just want to remind anyone on the fence, it is not church doctrine and never was, the quotes people share are their own private interpretations. Which they are free to share and I'm free to disagree, hopefully without the scolding.

[jmack]

If you really want to understand mmp or reincarnation and Mormonism, you need to read this.

http://www.freeread.com/22520/

I just read it.

There was no additional light or knowledge shared in this read. Joseph was a promised messiah as foretold in by the ancient prophets. This is the big "you dont know who I am" meaning to what Joseph was saying. NOT that he was the prophet Mormon or anybody else from antiquity. The scriptures cited do not at all establish reincarnation, but baptism. To deny this is to refute the need for baptism. Joseph didnt seek a rebirth he sought after the priesthood to be able to be baptized and to baptize others. The use of Joseph's statements about trying to convince early church members about the deeper doctrines is hardly appropriate given that he was about to reveal plural marriage, exaltation, pre existence, work for the dead, more scriptures, etc... he never taught reincarnation and it wasnt anything he was struggling to share with others. Given the nature of what he was willing to share like men becoming Gods, it is hard to argue that he chickened out at something like reincarnation, if it were a true doctrine.

Just some food for thought.

Yes, thank your thoughts on this.

[Believing Joseph]

Tyler, you are welcome to hold any strange beliefs you want to, but here's how I determine if those beliefs are possibly true. They shouldn't contradict established, doctrine. They shouldn't contradict something as basic as temple work and genealogy. They shouldn't undermine the mission and work of the Savior or his atonement on our behalf.

You are, of course, totally right to say that reincarnation contradicts the established doctrine of the church especially when it comes to the need for temple work.

But will you please stop accusing people like Davka, Alaris and Tyler Durden of "undermining the mission and work of the Savior and his atonement on our behalf?"

One of the main pointa in favor of their argument is that Jesus and his gospel are sufficiently important that no one will be either saved or damned until they have had an opportunity to become a Christian here on Earth.

[Rick Grimes]

Tyler, you are welcome to hold any strange beliefs you want to, but here's how I determine if those beliefs are possibly true. They shouldn't contradict established, doctrine. They shouldn't contradict something as basic as temple work and genealogy. They shouldn't undermine the mission and work of the Savior or his atonement on our behalf.

You are, of course, totally right to say that reincarnation contradicts the established doctrine of the church especially when it comes to the need for temple work.

But will you please stop accusing people like Davka, Alaris and Tyler Durden of "undermining the mission and work of the Savior and his atonement on our behalf?"

One of the main pointa in favor of their argument is that Jesus and his gospel are sufficiently important that no one will be either saved or damned until they have had an opportunity to become a Christian here on Earth.

Maybe I missed it, but where is the accusation that they "are undermining the mission and work of the Savior or His atonement on our behalf"? I thought Jmack was referring to "beliefs" that do that, not any specific individuals.

As to the correct statement that all will have a chance to recieve the gospel prior to being judged, in what way does that support reincarnation?? I think work for the dead and preaching to the spirits in the spirit world accomplishes that without the need to be reborn a dozen times before you cross paths with a missionary. And more importantly, this is backed by scriptures, where reincarnation is not.

[Zathura]

You’re but one of dozens of people who have interacted with Alaris on this topic over many different threads and pages , no need to make my post about you.

You also, as usual, disregard the bulk of the post that has very relevant information. Really there’s just no need for you to engage in discussions if you don’t actually want to evaluate what others have to say.

What is your contribution other than to criticize and accuse others?

You’re here criticizing Alaris, criticizing me, you criticize plenty of people.

I’ve seen The contribution that Alaris has made, ive seen many people thank him for leading them to revelations, for opening up their mind. I have no doubt he has received many private messages thanking him.

I personally have received thanks from people for my contribution, I’ve had people create an account literally just to tell me that they appreciate the contribution I made.

I can’t tell you why you don’t see what others see, sorry.

If you'll refer to my last post you'll maybe understand why I wouldn't be so warmed by knowing of the supportive messages and influence alaris has gotten in bringing people to believe mmp. Regardless of what some claim, mmp is not lds doctrine, I'll continue to hammer that point, because it is true. It's a theory that has been around a while, ebbed and flowed in popularity, like other theories and lately has gained notoriety by some who believe in it. Church leaders aren't secretly believing it but not teaching it in public and I guarantee you the leaders will speak out against it, likely in the near future as its becomes more public knowledge. So, I just want to remind anyone on the fence, it is not church doctrine and never was, the quotes people share are their own private interpretations. Which they are free to share and I'm free to disagree, hopefully without the scolding.

Cool

[jmack]

Tyler, you are welcome to hold any strange beliefs you want to, but here's how I determine if those beliefs are possibly true. They shouldn't contradict established, doctrine. They shouldn't contradict something as basic as temple work and genealogy. They shouldn't undermine the mission and work of the Savior or his atonement on our behalf.

You are, of course, totally right to say that reincarnation contradicts the established doctrine of the church especially when it comes to the need for temple work.

But will you please stop accusing people like Davka, Alaris and Tyler Durden of "undermining the mission and work of the Savior and his atonement on our behalf?"

One of the main pointa in favor of their argument is that Jesus and his gospel are sufficiently important that no one will be either saved or damned until they have had an opportunity to become a Christian here on Earth.

I didn't accuse any of them, I gave my opinion that mmp undermines the Savior, his mission, work and atonement. But your explanation in support of them ignores the whole reasom lds do temple work for the dead! It's because we each only have 1 life to live on earth, but baptism is necessary for salvation, so we do work on behalf of the dead, since they can't, and they accept it or reject it. Again, if people are going to live countless lives on earth, then theres no reason to do temple work for them. They can get it themselves in one or more of their many lives.

[Art Vandelay]

One of the main pointa in favor of their argument is that Jesus and his gospel are sufficiently important that no one will be either saved or damned until they have had an opportunity to become a Christian here on Earth.

Here on earth including the spirit world, just for clarification.

[Alexander]

Most of that statement is from others. I’ve asked for confirmation on those things and have subscribed those ideas. I don’t credit the idea or words to my own creation. I’ve heard it from others and have sought revelation on the matter

Maybe you need to relearn the basic beliefs of the gospel so that you can discern what isn't compatible with what you already claim to believe. That stuff you shared is not part of why we do temple work, it's strange. I'd say read up on temple work and ordinances on lds.org and books by believing members who aren't trying to tell you they have secret knowledge.

We learn line upon line and precept upon precept. My opinion and beliefs are always subject to change, as long as I’m led by the spirit. If certain things have spiritually been confirmed to me by the lord, I believe Him.

Perhaps my views are strange. But strange doesn’t mean it’s wrong. I also don’t claim to have all truth or state everything I say is completely correct.I’m just a sinner searching for truth and asking as much questions as I can.

I believe temple ordinances symbolically point you to real encounters with God. I believe the true power of God in Jesus Christ saves us, and not temporal rites and rituals.

Tyler, you are welcome to hold any strange beliefs you want to, but here's how I determine if those beliefs are possibly true. They shouldn't contradict established, doctrine. They shouldn't contradict something as basic as temple work and genealogy. They shouldn't undermine the mission and work of the Savior or his atonement on our behalf. They should be compatible with the canon of scripture, in this case, the book of Mormon. And, red flags should go up if people who go off the deep end, start their own churches, have affairs, go inactive, get excommunicated, or start killing people, promote these same strange beliefs. That's kinda the way I look at mmp, because it's been a doctrine shared among these kinds of people who have problems . Before you get offended, I'm not accusing you or alaris or stahura, etc, I'm just saying that ive seen a lot of bad things associated with this particular doctrine. I'd say the fruits of mmp seem to be decaying and debilitating to the soul over time. I think you and others should be careful of its influence on you, your relationships with your family, friends and with your standing in the church. Iyam.

For sure. Yeah I get where you’re coming from and understand the dangers and that all should be cautious. We need to follow the spirit and let the Lord be our guide, wherever he wants us to go. Anyways thanks for sharing your opinion on MMP and the temple and such.

[Original_Intent]

Whether MMP is true doctrine or not, we should live this life as if it is all we have. So from a practical standpoint, MMP is an interesting thought experiment, but if we use it as a reason to procrastinate the day of our repentance, it actually hurts our progress.

My personal leaning is that MMP is true, but is withheld because the majority are not ready for it and it would not aid most in their progress.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Whether MMP is true doctrine or not, we should live this life as if it is all we have. So from a practical standpoint, MMP is an interesting thought experiment, but if we use it as a reason to procrastinate the day of our repentance, it actually hurts our progress.

My personal leaning is that MMP is true, but is withheld because the majority are not ready for it and it would not aid most in their progress.

I agree, it is not for the world! It is for the Elect only.

[MMbelieve]

Whether MMP is true doctrine or not, we should live this life as if it is all we have. So from a practical standpoint, MMP is an interesting thought experiment, but if we use it as a reason to procrastinate the day of our repentance, it actually hurts our progress.

My personal leaning is that MMP is true, but is withheld because the majority are not ready for it and it would not aid most in their progress.

It seems to me that the idea of MMP has different meanings depending on who’s talking so what specifically do you believe is true?

[Original_Intent]

Whether MMP is true doctrine or not, we should live this life as if it is all we have. So from a practical standpoint, MMP is an interesting thought experiment, but if we use it as a reason to procrastinate the day of our repentance, it actually hurts our progress.

My personal leaning is that MMP is true, but is withheld because the majority are not ready for it and it would not aid most in their progress.

It seems to me that the idea of MMP has different meanings depending on who’s talking so what specifically do you believe is true?

I have long stated that I am not sure, but lean towards MMP being true. Not reincarnation, although that may be as well - I could see a framework that reincarnation could be a legitimate learning path for intelligences. But what I typically think of as MMP is multiple HUMAN incarnations. And I am not fervently committed to it, but see it as one possible way that eternal progression could be brought about.

One thing that I am convinced of, is that we don't die, hang out until final judgement, and then get sent to some mansion in some kingdom and progress nevermore. And I realize many consider that basic LDS doctrine. I don't think it is, and if it is it's an area
that I think the church has it wrong.

[Believing Joseph]

As to the correct statement that all will have a chance to recieve the gospel prior to being judged, in what way does that support reincarnation?? I think work for the dead and preaching to the spirits in the spirit world accomplishes that without the need to be reborn a dozen times before you cross paths with a missionary. And more importantly, this is backed by scriptures, where reincarnation is not.

There are several scriptures to the effect that the purpose of our life on Earth is to learn to follow Jesus and choose good over evil. The problem with the traditional LDS understanding of salvation for the dead is that it makes our mortal lives unnecessary: everyone gets born on Earth, but most people who end up getting saved either died as children or only heard the gospel after they were dead; in other words, their mortal experience had nothing to do with it.

To me, that seems very hard to reconcile with some important scriptures regarding the purpose of life:

Abraham 3:24-26
And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

Alma 34:32
For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

In order to accept the standard LDS interpretation of the Plan of Salvation, I would have to believe that those scriptures simply do not apply to the majority of the human race, since for most people, testing will come either in the the world of spirits, or not at all. So this - along with the clear statement in D&C 76 that those who "died without law" will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom, while other scriptures make it clear they also have an opportunity, at some point, to inherit the Celestial Kingdom - clues me in that something big is missing from the way the LDS Church has combined various scriptural passages to assemble its current Plan of Salvation .

I am not, by any means, certain that reincarnation is the answer. There aren't any scriptures clearly supporting it, though it appears that the Jews in Jesus' time believed in it, and he never refuted it, and also some of the companions of the Prophet Joseph believed in it. So it's hard to say one way or the other.

[righteousrepublic]

There is no such thing as Multiple Mortal Probations. The Book of Mormon is very clear on this point. Sure, we don't find an exact paragraph stating this, but upon reading the book several times, one can begin to collect little tidbits, and once they are all put together, we see that this life is all there is. I've posted these findings several times in other threads so I don't feel like doing it again.
However, MMP mocks the atonement and the plan of salvation, of which, is so simple to understand a caveman could grasp it.

Somebody, please, read Alma 40-42 and report point for point what happens to the righteous and the wicked.

Now what does Alma 11:45 reveal?
Revelation 21:4
Doctrine and Covenants 63:49
Doctrine and Covenants 88:116
Mormon 9:28
Helaman 13:38
2 Nephi 33:9
1 Nephi 10:21
2 Nephi 9:27
Doctrine and Covenants 29:43
1 Nephi 15:32
Enos 1:27
Mosiah 18:13
Doctrine and Covenants 88:29-31

Plus more. I'm not going to waste my time explaining all these, so I expect those who believe in MMP to read these and see that it doesn't exist. It is better to read for yourselves, to gain your own witness and testimony rather than take my word for it. Read these verses for what they actually convey, use cross references and pray about what you learn.

[LDSAnon]

Yep. Julie Rowe's own beliefs are heavy into mmp. She's got a long list of women she's been in the past. And disturbing too, Lori vallow is also a believer in mmp and she sounds crazy. I'm certain chad daybell is too. Iyam, it's a disturbing doctrine that may lead to some poor life decisions.

I've never heard or read anything by Julie Rowe. I stick to church sources, including historical documents and Journal of Discourses. LDS doctrine evolves over time. The early saints were seeking contact with God, not to establish a Pharasaical construct of airtight doctrine. People received dreams and visions for their own edification and were taught "doctrine" by revelation. Those teachings were given to them, but not necessarily the whole Church. Hiram Page, whom Joseph Smith corrected for receiving revelation from a personal seer stone, was receiving revelations about the future location of Zion. Joseph Smith revealed the same information shortly thereafter, but Hiram was already in-the-know about it. The problem wasn't with his information, the problem was he was exceeding the authority given him by revealing it to the Church.

Similarly, one of the Brethren told us at a regional leadership conference about a sister who came to Brigham Young. She had seen a vision about the future of Zion and the saints moving to the Salt Lake Valley. BY told her the vision was correct, but that it wasn't time to reveal it to the Church yet. After Joseph was assassinated, the events unfolded much as this sister had seen. Sometimes people of faith pierce the veil and see things they have to hold close until the prophet sees fit to share it with the rest of the Church.

I'm not suggesting that Chad Daybell or Julie Rowe are correct. I'm just saying that we need to be more open to revelation. The Sanhedrin developed in Babylon with the noble purpose of preserving Jewish orthodoxy during the Babylonian Captivity. The problem was that, in codifying doctrine, they "hardened the arteries" insomuch that they could not receive any new revelation. That was the problem Jesus had with them. They rejected the Messiah because they were tied to a specific doctrinal interpretation of a book. History repeats itself. At this point in our development, the trend within the Church is away from revelation toward Pharisee-like defense of an "inerrant" book.

[Hosh]

There is no such thing as Multiple Mortal Probations. The Book of Mormon is very clear on this point. Sure, we don't find an exact paragraph stating this, but upon reading the book several times, one can begin to collect little tidbits, and once they are all put together, we see that this life is all there is. I've posted these findings several times in other threads so I don't feel like doing it again.
However, MMP mocks the atonement and the plan of salvation, of which, is so simple to understand a caveman could grasp it.

Somebody, please, read Alma 40-42 and report point for point what happens to the righteous and the wicked.

Now what does Alma 11:45 reveal?
Revelation 21:4
Doctrine and Covenants 63:49
Doctrine and Covenants 88:116
Mormon 9:28
Helaman 13:38
2 Nephi 33:9
1 Nephi 10:21
2 Nephi 9:27
Doctrine and Covenants 29:43
1 Nephi 15:32
Enos 1:27
Mosiah 18:13
Doctrine and Covenants 88:29-31

Plus more. I'm not going to waste my time explaining all these, so I expect those who believe in MMP to read these and see that it doesn't exist. It is better to read for yourselves, to gain your own witness and testimony rather than take my word for it. Read these verses for what they actually convey, use cross references and pray about what you learn.

Do you understand all the mysteries of Godliness? Have you peered into the heavens? I know your going to ask, "HAVE YOU?!" No I have not. But I don't get on here and claim anything dealing with Gods mysteries to be matter of fact like you do.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many on here talk as if their paradigm is the only paradigm that exists and that they have some perfect knowledge of the heavens based off of their own personal understanding of the scriptures. You really don't know if MMP is true or false more than anyone else here who believes it's true. You might claim God told you, or that you have all the scriptural evidence in the world to back you up. Well, I can say the same thing about MMP being true. Everyone has things they believe they know more than everyone else, but the fact is, we really don't know with a perfect knowledge until we, like the Brother of Jared, recieve a perfect knowledge.

So why talk as if we know Anything perfectly? We dont. All it does is fill us with pride when we think we know any better than anyone else.

[righteousrepublic]

There is no such thing as Multiple Mortal Probations. The Book of Mormon is very clear on this point. Sure, we don't find an exact paragraph stating this, but upon reading the book several times, one can begin to collect little tidbits, and once they are all put together, we see that this life is all there is. I've posted these findings several times in other threads so I don't feel like doing it again.
However, MMP mocks the atonement and the plan of salvation, of which, is so simple to understand a caveman could grasp it.

Somebody, please, read Alma 40-42 and report point for point what happens to the righteous and the wicked.

Now what does Alma 11:45 reveal?
Revelation 21:4
Doctrine and Covenants 63:49
Doctrine and Covenants 88:116
Mormon 9:28
Helaman 13:38
2 Nephi 33:9
1 Nephi 10:21
2 Nephi 9:27
Doctrine and Covenants 29:43
1 Nephi 15:32
Enos 1:27
Mosiah 18:13
Doctrine and Covenants 88:29-31

Plus more. I'm not going to waste my time explaining all these, so I expect those who believe in MMP to read these and see that it doesn't exist. It is better to read for yourselves, to gain your own witness and testimony rather than take my word for it. Read these verses for what they actually convey, use cross references and pray about what you learn.

Do you understand all the mysteries of Godliness? Have you peered into the heavens? I know your going to ask, "HAVE YOU?!" No I have not. But I don't get on here and claim anything dealing with Gods mysteries to be matter of fact like you do.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many on here talk as if their paradigm is the only paradigm that exists and that they have some perfect knowledge of the heavens based off of their own personal understanding of the scriptures. You really don't know if MMP is true or false more than anyone else here who believes it's true. You might claim God told you, or that you have all the scriptural evidence in the world to back you up. Well, I can say the same thing about MMP being true. Everyone has things they believe they know more than everyone else, but the fact is, we really don't know with a perfect knowledge until we, like the Brother of Jared, recieve a perfect knowledge.

So why talk as if we know Anything perfectly? We dont. All it does is fill us with pride when we think we know any better than anyone else.

Did you read all the scriptures amply provided? Or is MMP going to be defended at any cost?

[cab]

There is no such thing as Multiple Mortal Probations. The Book of Mormon is very clear on this point. Sure, we don't find an exact paragraph stating this, but upon reading the book several times, one can begin to collect little tidbits, and once they are all put together, we see that this life is all there is. I've posted these findings several times in other threads so I don't feel like doing it again.
However, MMP mocks the atonement and the plan of salvation, of which, is so simple to understand a caveman could grasp it.

Somebody, please, read Alma 40-42 and report point for point what happens to the righteous and the wicked.

Now what does Alma 11:45 reveal?
Revelation 21:4
Doctrine and Covenants 63:49
Doctrine and Covenants 88:116
Mormon 9:28
Helaman 13:38
2 Nephi 33:9
1 Nephi 10:21
2 Nephi 9:27
Doctrine and Covenants 29:43
1 Nephi 15:32
Enos 1:27
Mosiah 18:13
Doctrine and Covenants 88:29-31

Plus more. I'm not going to waste my time explaining all these, so I expect those who believe in MMP to read these and see that it doesn't exist. It is better to read for yourselves, to gain your own witness and testimony rather than take my word for it. Read these verses for what they actually convey, use cross references and pray about what you learn.

Do you understand all the mysteries of Godliness? Have you peered into the heavens? I know your going to ask, "HAVE YOU?!" No I have not. But I don't get on here and claim anything dealing with Gods mysteries to be matter of fact like you do.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many on here talk as if their paradigm is the only paradigm that exists and that they have some perfect knowledge of the heavens based off of their own personal understanding of the scriptures. You really don't know if MMP is true or false more than anyone else here who believes it's true. You might claim God told you, or that you have all the scriptural evidence in the world to back you up. Well, I can say the same thing about MMP being true. Everyone has things they believe they know more than everyone else, but the fact is, we really don't know with a perfect knowledge until we, like the Brother of Jared, recieve a perfect knowledge.

So why talk as if we know Anything perfectly? We dont. All it does is fill us with pride when we think we know any better than anyone else.

Did you read all the scriptures amply provided? Or is MMP going to be defended at any cost?

So you reject a doctrine like this out of hand cause it's not spelled out in the Book of Mormon, yet cling dearly to Temple worship, Temple sealings, and "Families are Forever"....

Don't you see the irony here?

[righteousrepublic]

There is no such thing as Multiple Mortal Probations. The Book of Mormon is very clear on this point. Sure, we don't find an exact paragraph stating this, but upon reading the book several times, one can begin to collect little tidbits, and once they are all put together, we see that this life is all there is. I've posted these findings several times in other threads so I don't feel like doing it again.
However, MMP mocks the atonement and the plan of salvation, of which, is so simple to understand a caveman could grasp it.

Somebody, please, read Alma 40-42 and report point for point what happens to the righteous and the wicked.

Now what does Alma 11:45 reveal?
Revelation 21:4
Doctrine and Covenants 63:49
Doctrine and Covenants 88:116
Mormon 9:28
Helaman 13:38
2 Nephi 33:9
1 Nephi 10:21
2 Nephi 9:27
Doctrine and Covenants 29:43
1 Nephi 15:32
Enos 1:27
Mosiah 18:13
Doctrine and Covenants 88:29-31

Plus more. I'm not going to waste my time explaining all these, so I expect those who believe in MMP to read these and see that it doesn't exist. It is better to read for yourselves, to gain your own witness and testimony rather than take my word for it. Read these verses for what they actually convey, use cross references and pray about what you learn.

Do you understand all the mysteries of Godliness? Have you peered into the heavens? I know your going to ask, "HAVE YOU?!" No I have not. But I don't get on here and claim anything dealing with Gods mysteries to be matter of fact like you do.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many on here talk as if their paradigm is the only paradigm that exists and that they have some perfect knowledge of the heavens based off of their own personal understanding of the scriptures. You really don't know if MMP is true or false more than anyone else here who believes it's true. You might claim God told you, or that you have all the scriptural evidence in the world to back you up. Well, I can say the same thing about MMP being true. Everyone has things they believe they know more than everyone else, but the fact is, we really don't know with a perfect knowledge until we, like the Brother of Jared, recieve a perfect knowledge.

So why talk as if we know Anything perfectly? We dont. All it does is fill us with pride when we think we know any better than anyone else.

Did you read all the scriptures amply provided? Or is MMP going to be defended at any cost?

So you reject a doctrine like this out of hand cause it's not spelled out in the Book of Mormon, yet cling dearly to Temple worship, Temple sealings, and "Families are Forever"....

Don't you see the irony here?

I see MMP doctrine as a doctrine so full of holes, it looks like Swiss cheese. MMP is not spelled out in any of the four standard works. If it were a true doctrine it would exist in there someplace.
Just because some people want to believe this doctrine so badly until their teeth ache...doesn't make it true one iota.

But, hey, believe want you want. I hear it is a freedom to do so.

MMP = Many Mental Problems. This is what will happen when Multiple Mortal Probations is given too much consideration.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Do you understand all the mysteries of Godliness? Have you peered into the heavens? I know your going to ask, "HAVE YOU?!" No I have not. But I don't get on here and claim anything dealing with Gods mysteries to be matter of fact like you do.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many on here talk as if their paradigm is the only paradigm that exists and that they have some perfect knowledge of the heavens based off of their own personal understanding of the scriptures. You really don't know if MMP is true or false more than anyone else here who believes it's true. You might claim God told you, or that you have all the scriptural evidence in the world to back you up. Well, I can say the same thing about MMP being true. Everyone has things they believe they know more than everyone else, but the fact is, we really don't know with a perfect knowledge until we, like the Brother of Jared, recieve a perfect knowledge.

So why talk as if we know Anything perfectly? We dont. All it does is fill us with pride when we think we know any better than anyone else.

Did you read all the scriptures amply provided? Or is MMP going to be defended at any cost?

So you reject a doctrine like this out of hand cause it's not spelled out in the Book of Mormon, yet cling dearly to Temple worship, Temple sealings, and "Families are Forever"....

Don't you see the irony here?

I see MMP doctrine as a doctrine so full of holes, it looks like Swiss cheese. MMP is not spelled out in any of the four standard works. If it were a true doctrine it would exist in there someplace.
Just because some people want to believe this doctrine so badly until their teeth ache...doesn't make it true one iota.

But, hey, believe want you want. I hear it is a freedom to do so.

MMP = Many Mental Problems. This is what will happen when Multiple Mortal Probations is given too much consideration.

Maybe it is just a "Mormon Mental Problem?" If you have a truth and the adversary twist it into something else, though it is based on a true principle, it is no longer true!

In the garden, satan said he was only doing that what had been done in other creations... but it was not his place or part to play, and he twisted it into an abomination. I see the very same thing happening here... JS had some people who took the doctrine of Plurality of Wives and made it into a spiritual wifery doctrine! Rather than building Father's kingdom, they covered their sins of adultery and whoredoms, all the while thinking they are building their own kingdom. Dilutions are a form of Mental Problems. Jim Harmston started out as a active LDS Member, into believing MMP, and after a while, into thinking he was prominent people in history. Finally he began thinking he was the Messiah and eventually the Eternal Father, and he attempting to deceive many!

What else can I say to warn others of the incorrectness of MMP? I have seen first hand how destructive this false doctrine is verses the true doctrine of Eternal Lives. You see the same principles of apostasy being played out in Christianity, where the doctrine of 'the Rapture', which has a scriptural reality to it, but is then twisted into an abomination of believing in a Pre-Rapture and people sitting on their laurels, thinking they have been saved by grace and when the Tribulations comes, they do not have to worry because they will not be here.

How silly it is to make multiple movies of people vanishing and leaving all their clothing behind neatly folded. Maybe some in Mormonism who believe in MMP should make a movie of how to start cottage meetings, that eventually turns into a church, where they then sets around trying to get revelation on who each other were in history, and how great they think they are.

And when this happens... I have seen how quickly other doctrines show up like 'Spiritual Wifery", though they try to dress it up with different names like, 'Hearts and Flowers'. They say, you or her was my wife who was so an so in history and married to them because they claim they were so an so, and so we are already married and even possibly sealed. Then off they go having sex and breaking their covenants and destroying their families!

So why after seeing this a few times, like watching Roger Billings and his LDS Church in Zion group in Missouri, the Harmstonites in Manti, and even loosing a wife to a man names Craig Tholson, who wrote a few books and preached a slightly different version of this same doctrine... pardon me for getting so angry with those who preach this doctrine that "this life is just another turn of the crank!" and "You will keep coming down here until you get it right"! That there is 'kingdom progression' in the eternities, and that we are already here and you are working on it right now!

I see the very same apostasy trying to rear its ugly head up yet again, with a wholly new generation! Yet agency must be extended to all, even when you know how damning it will be for some!

Shalom

[righteousrepublic]

Did you read all the scriptures amply provided? Or is MMP going to be defended at any cost?

So you reject a doctrine like this out of hand cause it's not spelled out in the Book of Mormon, yet cling dearly to Temple worship, Temple sealings, and "Families are Forever"....

Don't you see the irony here?

I see MMP doctrine as a doctrine so full of holes, it looks like Swiss cheese. MMP is not spelled out in any of the four standard works. If it were a true doctrine it would exist in there someplace.
Just because some people want to believe this doctrine so badly until their teeth ache...doesn't make it true one iota.

But, hey, believe want you want. I hear it is a freedom to do so.

MMP = Many Mental Problems. This is what will happen when Multiple Mortal Probations is given too much consideration.

Maybe it is just a "Mormon Mental Problem?" If you have a truth and the adversary twist it into something else, though it is based on a true principle, it is no longer true!

In the garden, satan said he was only doing that what had been done in other creations... but it was not his place or part to play, and he twisted it into an abomination. I see the very same thing happening here... JS had some people who took the doctrine of Plurality of Wives and made it into a spiritual wifery doctrine! Rather than building Father's kingdom, they covered their sins of adultery and whoredoms, all the while thinking they are building their own kingdom. Dilutions are a form of Mental Problems. Jim Harmston started out as a active LDS Member, into believing MMP, and after a while, into thinking he was prominent people in history. Finally he began thinking he was the Messiah and eventually the Eternal Father, and he attempting to deceive many!

What else can I say to warn others of the incorrectness of MMP? I have seen first hand how destructive this false doctrine is verses the true doctrine of Eternal Lives. You see the same principles of apostasy being played out in Christianity, where the doctrine of 'the Rapture', which has a scriptural reality to it, but is then twisted into an abomination of believing in a Pre-Rapture and people sitting on their laurels, thinking they have been saved by grace and when the Tribulations comes, they do not have to worry because they will not be here.

How silly it is to make multiple movies of people vanishing and leaving all their clothing behind neatly folded. Maybe some in Mormonism who believe in MMP should make a movie of how to start cottage meetings, that eventually turns into a church, where they then sets around trying to get revelation on who each other were in history, and how great they think they are.

And when this happens... I have seen how quickly other doctrines show up like 'Spiritual Wifery", though they try to dress it up with different names like, 'Hearts and Flowers'. They say, you or her was my wife who was so an so in history and married to them because they claim they were so an so, and so we are already married and even possibly sealed. Then off they go having sex and breaking their covenants and destroying their families!

So why after seeing this a few times, like watching Roger Billings and his LDS Church in Zion group in Missouri, the Harmstonites in Manti, and even loosing a wife to a man names Craig Tholson, who wrote a few books and preached a slightly different version of this same doctrine... pardon me for getting so angry with those who preach this doctrine that "this life is just another turn of the crank!" and "You will keep coming down here until you get it right"! That there is 'kingdom progression' in the eternities, and that we are already here and you are working on it right now!

I see the very same apostasy trying to rear its ugly head up yet again, with a wholly new generation! Yet agency must be extended to all, even when you know how damning it will be for some!

Shalom

Even then the doctrine of eternal lives is singular, not plural.

D&C 132
24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Now notice how the term death is used:

D&C 132
25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

Matthew 7:13
13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

So we see that eternal life is singular not plural per individual.

This shows there is no such thing as MMP or bouncing around from one planet to another.

[Believing Joseph]

I see MMP doctrine as a doctrine so full of holes, it looks like Swiss cheese.

The Plan of Salvation as presently taught by the LDS church is also full of holes. Just ask yourself:

1) Why does D&C 76:72 say that "they who died without law" will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom, even though the modern LDS interpretation is that they can inherit the Celestial Kingdom because of temple work?

2) Why do the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham talk about how being tested on Earth is essential to our eternal journey, if most people are going to be tested only in the spirit world, or (for children who died before age 8) not at all?

3) If Jesus was God before his birth, and our progression towars exaltation requires us to have a mortal experience, and all of the Gods became Gods in the same way, then wouldn't that make Jesus a reincarnated being?

4) Why did Jesus claim that Elijah and John the Baptist are the same person?

Some people believe in reincarnation because it makes sense of these problems in something like the following manner:

Choosing to live as Christians in mortality is essential for ressurection into the Celestial Kingdom. Those who die without law (or don't accept the fullness of the gospel for reasons not quite worthy of hell fire) will at best inherit the Terreatrial Kingdom Their state is not oermanent and they are free to be reborn on Earth; only the vilest sinners fall out of the cycle completely.

You are totally right about there being nothing in the Standard Works to support this. At the same time, it's apparent that something big is missing from the picture as it is currently constructed by the LDS church. Hence the rampant speculation about reincarnation.

[ChooseTruth]

I view mmp like the polygamy doctrine. Neither has been fully restored or completely understood. Both doctrines are true but misunderstood and incomplete. People who get in too deep with either can lose perspective and get on the wrong path.

We know that the restored gospel is a preparatory gospel similar to the law of Moses. It’s to prepare us to receive greater light and knowledge when we’re ready for it. It would appear that as a whole, we aren’t ready for either doctrine.

So I try to discern the truths in both and put the rest on the shelf until the Lord chooses to reveal more to me. As for mmp, it’s true. I’ve received a witness of it but lack a complete understanding. As for polygamy, I know the celestial order in no way resembles what Brigham practiced. Either we’re sealed as one family with just couples similar to what it appeared Joseph was restoring or it’s polyamory. I’m content to wait for more answers.