Multiple mortalities?

[nightlight]

The KFD is very, very well documented, as there were thousands of people present, and several taking copious notes. Historians have been able to compare some of those notes and they match very well, so it's unlikely that someone wrote it down wrong.

There are many things that aren't part of LDS canon, but it doesn't mean they aren't true.

It's hard for me to see how someone can brush off *Joseph Smith's* own teachings....either he is THE prophet of the dispensation, or he's not. If we can't accept this, how can we accept anything else he said? I understand that certain statements were written down second or third hand and therefore may not be exactly what he said, but this is not the case with the things he taught at Brother Follet's funeral.

I can see why he didn't teach it openly very often if the reaction he got was anything like what we see on this forum. My guess is that isn't necessary for everyone to know/understand the principle in order to live the gospel in this life, anymore than it was necessary for the Children of Israel to know about/understand the temple endowment.

I agree that the KFD is pretty solid doctrine. However, your reading of it is flawed. "Grace to grace" and "everlasting burnings" do not equate to reincarnation. It doesnt line up with Holy writ, none of it. We have a few lines from a talk by Brigham and Joseph that have been taken out of context and now we have a whole new doctrine of reincarnation.

Will I come back as a women in my next life? What happens if I die in infancy in my next life? Do I get another do over? Can i come back as a horse next time? I'm serious. Why be constrained to being a human if we can shed bodies like a pair of cloths?

But the KFD DOES specifically say that Jesus' father did what Jesus did.

"The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again."

So if Jesus had to do what his Father did to become like his father and dwell where his father dwells ("everlasting burnings"), what makes you the exception? I'm assuming you believe as most members do that you have the potential to become like your Heavenly Father...but you think you are going to get there a different way than Jesus did and Father did? That's a bigger stretch to me than the idea than that this life isn't a one off.

In answer to your (serious?) questions...if you're asking those, you're missing the point. Multiple probations are not random...they are progressive. Line upon line. To "come back" (which, by the way, assumes that all our lives are one the same world, which I don't necessarily believe) as a horse doesn't seem to serve a purpose of learning more or proving yourself further. But "coming back" in, say, the role of an Adam, and surely as a Savior certainly does. So I would say no, you will probably "come back" in a role that will help you learn to use your priesthood to serve others and get you closer to being a Savior, which would be as a man in a greater capacity than the one you’re currently in. Just my thoughts, of course.

One thing you have to try to dodge, though, is that if you believe this life is the only one, then you must admit that you are superior, or at least much more lucky, than your brothers and sisters born in other eras and circumstances, indicated by the fact that unlike 99.99999 percent of the world's population throughout history, you have knowledge and access to the latter-day gospel of Jesus Christ. "More valiant" is the euphemism we often use in the church. But really would should just come out and say it..."we think we are better than them, just as Michael, Joseph Smith or Jesus are better than us."

"More progressed" is much more in line with the teachings of the of the worth and potential of each child of God, imo.

What is meant by everlasting burnings? Does that mean hell or something else?

A Celestial Earth doesn't need a sun.


22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof

[Davka]

Not just Brigham either. Heber C. Kimball and many others also taught this.



I happen to agree.



No. Adam and Eve fell because that was their role, to begin mankind. The Father could fall if he wanted to but then he would cease to be God - which is what happened to Adam and Eve. They ceased to be Gods so they could begin mankind.

Some converts will bring past beliefs with them when they join the church. Early saints may have been influenced by spiritualism, which was popular in the 19th century. I think some were trying to understand and flesh out certain things, like the eternities and making the common mistake of mixing in philosophies of men with doctrines they learned in the church.

But we are totally beyond that. Totally.

Heber c Kimball, eliza snow et all were not totally beyond that, they were converts in the 19th century and would likely have known about spiritualism and maybe believed some of it. That's my point. People like to use them to claim mmp is doctrine, it isn't.

So you’re saying they were lying about what JS taught them abd just making stuff up based on their previously held beliefs?

Coincidentally (or not), several early Christian writers believed in various sorts of reincarnation too.

[MMbelieve]

I agree that the KFD is pretty solid doctrine. However, your reading of it is flawed. "Grace to grace" and "everlasting burnings" do not equate to reincarnation. It doesnt line up with Holy writ, none of it. We have a few lines from a talk by Brigham and Joseph that have been taken out of context and now we have a whole new doctrine of reincarnation.

Will I come back as a women in my next life? What happens if I die in infancy in my next life? Do I get another do over? Can i come back as a horse next time? I'm serious. Why be constrained to being a human if we can shed bodies like a pair of cloths?

But the KFD DOES specifically say that Jesus' father did what Jesus did.

"The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again."

So if Jesus had to do what his Father did to become like his father and dwell where his father dwells ("everlasting burnings"), what makes you the exception? I'm assuming you believe as most members do that you have the potential to become like your Heavenly Father...but you think you are going to get there a different way than Jesus did and Father did? That's a bigger stretch to me than the idea than that this life isn't a one off.

In answer to your (serious?) questions...if you're asking those, you're missing the point. Multiple probations are not random...they are progressive. Line upon line. To "come back" (which, by the way, assumes that all our lives are one the same world, which I don't necessarily believe) as a horse doesn't seem to serve a purpose of learning more or proving yourself further. But "coming back" in, say, the role of an Adam, and surely as a Savior certainly does. So I would say no, you will probably "come back" in a role that will help you learn to use your priesthood to serve others and get you closer to being a Savior, which would be as a man in a greater capacity than the one you’re currently in. Just my thoughts, of course.

One thing you have to try to dodge, though, is that if you believe this life is the only one, then you must admit that you are superior, or at least much more lucky, than your brothers and sisters born in other eras and circumstances, indicated by the fact that unlike 99.99999 percent of the world's population throughout history, you have knowledge and access to the latter-day gospel of Jesus Christ. "More valiant" is the euphemism we often use in the church. But really would should just come out and say it..."we think we are better than them, just as Michael, Joseph Smith or Jesus are better than us."

"More progressed" is much more in line with the teachings of the of the worth and potential of each child of God, imo.

What is meant by everlasting burnings? Does that mean hell or something else?

A Celestial Earth doesn't need a sun.


22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof

I guess I’m just not getting the connection on a practical level. Everlasting burnings? Like a fire? Is heaven a bunch of fires? Like hell? I know I sound foolish, this burnings word has never been associated with heaven in my mind. The HG is said to be a burning in the bosom so maybe it’s nit to do with light or sun but with truth?

[Alexander]

I agree that the KFD is pretty solid doctrine. However, your reading of it is flawed. "Grace to grace" and "everlasting burnings" do not equate to reincarnation. It doesnt line up with Holy writ, none of it. We have a few lines from a talk by Brigham and Joseph that have been taken out of context and now we have a whole new doctrine of reincarnation.

Will I come back as a women in my next life? What happens if I die in infancy in my next life? Do I get another do over? Can i come back as a horse next time? I'm serious. Why be constrained to being a human if we can shed bodies like a pair of cloths?

But the KFD DOES specifically say that Jesus' father did what Jesus did.

"The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again."

So if Jesus had to do what his Father did to become like his father and dwell where his father dwells ("everlasting burnings"), what makes you the exception? I'm assuming you believe as most members do that you have the potential to become like your Heavenly Father...but you think you are going to get there a different way than Jesus did and Father did? That's a bigger stretch to me than the idea than that this life isn't a one off.

In answer to your (serious?) questions...if you're asking those, you're missing the point. Multiple probations are not random...they are progressive. Line upon line. To "come back" (which, by the way, assumes that all our lives are one the same world, which I don't necessarily believe) as a horse doesn't seem to serve a purpose of learning more or proving yourself further. But "coming back" in, say, the role of an Adam, and surely as a Savior certainly does. So I would say no, you will probably "come back" in a role that will help you learn to use your priesthood to serve others and get you closer to being a Savior, which would be as a man in a greater capacity than the one you’re currently in. Just my thoughts, of course.

One thing you have to try to dodge, though, is that if you believe this life is the only one, then you must admit that you are superior, or at least much more lucky, than your brothers and sisters born in other eras and circumstances, indicated by the fact that unlike 99.99999 percent of the world's population throughout history, you have knowledge and access to the latter-day gospel of Jesus Christ. "More valiant" is the euphemism we often use in the church. But really would should just come out and say it..."we think we are better than them, just as Michael, Joseph Smith or Jesus are better than us."

"More progressed" is much more in line with the teachings of the of the worth and potential of each child of God, imo.

What is meant by everlasting burnings? Does that mean hell or something else?

it means to continually dwell in the glory of god. God's glory has a cleansing ability, hence the term baptism of fire and holy ghost. God's glory and spirt purify and burn.

[nightlight]

But the KFD DOES specifically say that Jesus' father did what Jesus did.

"The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again."

So if Jesus had to do what his Father did to become like his father and dwell where his father dwells ("everlasting burnings"), what makes you the exception? I'm assuming you believe as most members do that you have the potential to become like your Heavenly Father...but you think you are going to get there a different way than Jesus did and Father did? That's a bigger stretch to me than the idea than that this life isn't a one off.

In answer to your (serious?) questions...if you're asking those, you're missing the point. Multiple probations are not random...they are progressive. Line upon line. To "come back" (which, by the way, assumes that all our lives are one the same world, which I don't necessarily believe) as a horse doesn't seem to serve a purpose of learning more or proving yourself further. But "coming back" in, say, the role of an Adam, and surely as a Savior certainly does. So I would say no, you will probably "come back" in a role that will help you learn to use your priesthood to serve others and get you closer to being a Savior, which would be as a man in a greater capacity than the one you’re currently in. Just my thoughts, of course.

One thing you have to try to dodge, though, is that if you believe this life is the only one, then you must admit that you are superior, or at least much more lucky, than your brothers and sisters born in other eras and circumstances, indicated by the fact that unlike 99.99999 percent of the world's population throughout history, you have knowledge and access to the latter-day gospel of Jesus Christ. "More valiant" is the euphemism we often use in the church. But really would should just come out and say it..."we think we are better than them, just as Michael, Joseph Smith or Jesus are better than us."

"More progressed" is much more in line with the teachings of the of the worth and potential of each child of God, imo.

What is meant by everlasting burnings? Does that mean hell or something else?

A Celestial Earth doesn't need a sun.


22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof

I guess I’m just not getting the connection on a practical level. Everlasting burnings? Like a fire? Is heaven a bunch of fires? Like hell? I know I sound foolish, this burnings word has never been associated with heaven in my mind. The HG is said to be a burning in the bosom so maybe it’s nit to do with light or sun but with truth?

If you and I entered into the presence of the Father, our bodies would be burnt to ash. Don't think about it in a metaphorical/spiritual sense, think about in a literal/scientific sense... He exists at a higher vibration. Your body would be consumed by heat...

And now it came to pass that when I had spoken these words they were angry with me, and were desirous to throw me into the depths of the sea; and as they came forth to lay their hands upon me I spake unto them, saying: In the name of the Almighty God, I command you that ye atouch me not, for I am filled with the bpower of God, even unto the consuming of my flesh; and whoso shall lay his hands upon me shall cwither even as a dried reed; and he shall be as naught before the power of God, for God shall smite him.

[Rick Grimes]

I'm not understanding how the temperature of being around God had to do with reincarnation? I've read people quote the "everlasting burnings" and such, but I'm not making the connection of this to being born on multiple worlds.

[Alexander]

I'm not understanding how the temperature of being around God had to do with reincarnation? I've read people quote the "everlasting burnings" and such, but I'm not making the connection of this to being born on multiple worlds.

Everlasting burnings are for those who receive celestial glory. I was talking about the telestial and terrestrial glory specifically. I was saying perhaps those who inherit the telestial kingdom are given another mortal life on another telestial world. Perhaps to enter into another MMP could be a type of resurrection.

[nightlight]

I'm not understanding how the temperature of being around God had to do with reincarnation? I've read people quote the "everlasting burnings" and such, but I'm not making the connection of this to being born on multiple worlds.

They equate "everlasting burnings " as something only those who preformed the Atonement can achieve ..lol the irony is.....THIS IS THE POINT OF THE ATONMENT......

This is what is happening with MMP imo:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them." 3Ne 11:39-40

[Davka]

I'm not understanding how the temperature of being around God had to do with reincarnation? I've read people quote the "everlasting burnings" and such, but I'm not making the connection of this to being born on multiple worlds.

They equate "everlasting burnings " as something only those who preformed the Atonement can achieve ..lol the irony is.....THIS IS THE POINT OF THE ATONMENT......

This is what is happening with MMP imo:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them." 3Ne 11:39-40

Okay. A. Who is “they”? It’s not like there’s an organized pro-MMP group.

B. The KFD is about exaltation, not salvation. Two different things. The atonement saves man from death and hell. There is nothing, however, that says is *exalts* us. This is, IMO, one of the major disconnects between LDS theology and mainstream Christianity. They are talking about salvation, but unaware of exaltation. Are they correct? Yes! The atonement absolutely saves us. But to what end? What is the difference between a terrestrial kingdom-ite and a celestial kingdom-ite?

Being able to endure the presence of the father is dwelling in “Everlasting burnings,” and, IMO, is a matter of exaltation more than the salvation extended to all mankind.

What do you think “grace to grace” means? I’m really curious.

To me, it is clear that “Grace” is synonymous with atonement. “From atonement to atonement.”

The Atonement is incredible, remarkable, amazing...how is it any less great if it saves us from falling so we can continue progressing versus “poof! You’re a god!” What is the difference between what you believe about the atonement and what our mainstream Christian brothers and sisters believe?

[Kingdom of ZION]

But the KFD DOES specifically say that Jesus' father did what Jesus did.

"The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again."

So if Jesus had to do what his Father did to become like his father and dwell where his father dwells ("everlasting burnings"), what makes you the exception? I'm assuming you believe as most members do that you have the potential to become like your Heavenly Father...but you think you are going to get there a different way than Jesus did and Father did? That's a bigger stretch to me than the idea than that this life isn't a one off.

In answer to your (serious?) questions...if you're asking those, you're missing the point. Multiple probations are not random...they are progressive. Line upon line. To "come back" (which, by the way, assumes that all our lives are one the same world, which I don't necessarily believe) as a horse doesn't seem to serve a purpose of learning more or proving yourself further. But "coming back" in, say, the role of an Adam, and surely as a Savior certainly does. So I would say no, you will probably "come back" in a role that will help you learn to use your priesthood to serve others and get you closer to being a Savior, which would be as a man in a greater capacity than the one you’re currently in. Just my thoughts, of course.

One thing you have to try to dodge, though, is that if you believe this life is the only one, then you must admit that you are superior, or at least much more lucky, than your brothers and sisters born in other eras and circumstances, indicated by the fact that unlike 99.99999 percent of the world's population throughout history, you have knowledge and access to the latter-day gospel of Jesus Christ. "More valiant" is the euphemism we often use in the church. But really would should just come out and say it..."we think we are better than them, just as Michael, Joseph Smith or Jesus are better than us."

"More progressed" is much more in line with the teachings of the of the worth and potential of each child of God, imo.

What is meant by everlasting burnings? Does that mean hell or something else?

A Celestial Earth doesn't need a sun.


22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof

I guess I’m just not getting the connection on a practical level. Everlasting burnings? Like a fire? Is heaven a bunch of fires? Like hell? I know I sound foolish, this burnings word has never been associated with heaven in my mind. The HG is said to be a burning in the bosom so maybe it’s nit to do with light or sun but with truth?

Outer Darkness is a very cold place, without light, truth, freedom of movement. The fire they speak of is the anguish of spirit. This also happens to those cast down to hell, the Telestial Kingdom, but again it is not actual fire, but the pain of loss.

Heaven in a Celestial world is a super nova, or eternal burnings. To stand upon such a world, your garments (Body) must be pure, no stains of sin upon them, that the light might not light upon you. It looks like a sea of glass, amber in color, and has been likened unto gold. When you read about the Messiah appearance to JS and OC in the Kirkland Temple, it describes how they saw Him in a Celestial world, and NO His eyes were not on fire or orange and red! It was the reflection of the eternal burnings in His eyes.

[nightlight]

I'm not understanding how the temperature of being around God had to do with reincarnation? I've read people quote the "everlasting burnings" and such, but I'm not making the connection of this to being born on multiple worlds.

They equate "everlasting burnings " as something only those who preformed the Atonement can achieve ..lol the irony is.....THIS IS THE POINT OF THE ATONMENT......

This is what is happening with MMP imo:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them." 3Ne 11:39-40

Okay. A. Who is “they”? It’s not like there’s an organized pro-MMP group.

B. The KFD is about exaltation, not salvation. Two different things. The atonement saves man from death and hell. There is nothing, however, that says is *exalts* us. This is, IMO, one of the major disconnects between LDS theology and mainstream Christianity. They are talking about salvation, but unaware of exaltation. Are they correct? Yes! The atonement absolutely saves us. But to what end? What is the difference between a terrestrial kingdom-ite and a celestial kingdom-ite?

Being able to endure the presence of the father is dwelling in “Everlasting burnings,” and, IMO, is a matter of exaltation more than the salvation extended to all mankind.

What do you think “grace to grace” means? I’m really curious.

To me, it is clear that “Grace” is synonymous with atonement. “From atonement to atonement.”

The Atonement is incredible, remarkable, amazing...how is it any less great if it saves us from falling so we can continue progressing versus “poof! You’re a god!” What is the difference between what you believe about the atonement and what our mainstream Christian brothers and sisters believe?

I'll go into detail of what I believe about exaltation&salvation when I get home tonight....LIKE YOU...my views are little bit different from mainstream mormons.

Lol as to the modern christian comparison lol I believe in D&C.... so........

[jmack]

Read the Book of Abraham. When God picked a spirit to be Christ....he didn't say "first I'll choose you....then I'll choose you.....then I'll choose that guy over there....etc" Jesus is Christ to all who come from the Father.

Your spirit children will need a Christ...it will be one of your Sons

And will that Christ be able to say, as Jesus did, I only do what I saw my father do?

We are to overcome the world...and to become one with the the Father.

One most do this to inherit the Kingdom.
Our Sons will see this in us and do it.

If you found out our Father wasn't the Christ for His brothers....would you think less of Him?

If I found out The Father never fulfilled the role of Christ himself, I would have doubts in the power of the atonement and the gospel. I would have doubts that I could become like Christ, because I could never obtain what he has obtained, or experience what he has experienced. How would Jesus know the atonement was possible if the Father never showed the way before him? How could I believe I can become like Him if I can’t do what He has done?

Plenty of Christians have faith in the atonement without having to believe god did the same thing. Catholics, protestants, evangelicals, mainstream lds all exercise faith without doubting the power of the atonement, so I'm not sure why you are making demands of god when you really have little understanding of his ways. Faith means trusting god, and being humble.

[Art Vandelay]

"The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again."

Meaning he attained the keys of resurrection. Christ also gave those keys to others.

51 These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life,

[jmack]

This is not lds doctrine, it is speculation and likely misunderstood when someone wrote it down. The king Follett talk is not part of lds canon. People who believe in mmp should not be presenting it here as sound doctrine and teaching.

The KFD is very, very well documented, as there were thousands of people present, and several taking copious notes. Historians have been able to compare some of those notes and they match very well, so it's unlikely that someone wrote it down wrong.

There are many things that aren't part of LDS canon, but it doesn't mean they aren't true.

It's hard for me to see how someone can brush off *Joseph Smith's* own teachings....either he is THE prophet of the dispensation, or he's not. If we can't accept this, how can we accept anything else he said? I understand that certain statements were written down second or third hand and therefore may not be exactly what he said, but this is not the case with the things he taught at Brother Follet's funeral.

I can see why he didn't teach it openly very often if the reaction he got was anything like what we see on this forum. My guess is that isn't necessary for everyone to know/understand the principle in order to live the gospel in this life, anymore than it was necessary for the Children of Israel to know about/understand the temple endowment.

I agree that the KFD is pretty solid doctrine. However, your reading of it is flawed. "Grace to grace" and "everlasting burnings" do not equate to reincarnation. It doesnt line up with Holy writ, none of it. We have a few lines from a talk by Brigham and Joseph that have been taken out of context and now we have a whole new doctrine of reincarnation.

Will I come back as a women in my next life? What happens if I die in infancy in my next life? Do I get another do over? Can i come back as a horse next time? I'm serious. Why be constrained to being a human if we can shed bodies like a pair of cloths?

But the KFD DOES specifically say that Jesus' father did what Jesus did.

"The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again."

So if Jesus had to do what his Father did to become like his father and dwell where his father dwells ("everlasting burnings"), what makes you the exception? I'm assuming you believe as most members do that you have the potential to become like your Heavenly Father...but you think you are going to get there a different way than Jesus did and Father did? That's a bigger stretch to me than the idea than that this life isn't a one off.

In answer to your (serious?) questions...if you're asking those, you're missing the point. Multiple probations are not random...they are progressive. Line upon line. To "come back" (which, by the way, assumes that all our lives are one the same world, which I don't necessarily believe) as a horse doesn't seem to serve a purpose of learning more or proving yourself further. But "coming back" in, say, the role of an Adam, and surely as a Savior certainly does. So I would say no, you will probably "come back" in a role that will help you learn to use your priesthood to serve others and get you closer to being a Savior, which would be as a man in a greater capacity than the one you’re currently in. Just my thoughts, of course.

One thing you have to try to dodge, though, is that if you believe this life is the only one, then you must admit that you are superior, or at least much more lucky, than your brothers and sisters born in other eras and circumstances, indicated by the fact that unlike 99.99999 percent of the world's population throughout history, you have knowledge and access to the latter-day gospel of Jesus Christ. "More valiant" is the euphemism we often use in the church. But really would should just come out and say it..."we think we are better than them, just as Michael, Joseph Smith or Jesus are better than us."

"More progressed" is much more in line with the teachings of the of the worth and potential of each child of God, imo.

We are told we have one life, this life is the one that we need to concern ourselves with. You can't deny the book of Mormon teaches that, people have posted the scriptures saying this many times, I know you are aware of them. People who believe in mmp read into the words of others to push this belief in reincarnation which Joseph Smith never believed or taught, and we know it wasn't doctrine or it would have been a doctrine of the church. It's not, no matter what individuals here say. It's even been associated with those who've been excommunicated or left the church.

[jmack]

I’ve been looking into what the telestial kingdom is since this world is telestial, if those who inherit the telestial kingdom will enter another mortality (you may be aware from my last post here https://tinyurl.com/ttjuk3c).
Here are some interesting videos about people remembering their past lives.

https://youtu.be/nhGX1YCsvAM

https://youtu.be/La8vG4mA0is

Tell me what you think

Edit: I didn’t know there were other threads on this subject. I searched up “multiple mortalities” and nothing came up. It wasn’t til after that I became aware of the term MMP and the many other threads on this subject

I've got no horse in this race, I don't personally feel a need to determine the truth of this doctrine, but Alaris certainly has me intrigued. Here is a list of Pro/Anti/Neutral statements on the idea of progression between Kingdoms(Which is a way you could describe MMP)


In 1952, the secretary to the First Presidency was directed to say the following, it was cited again in 1965:

No Official Church Doctrine:

Secretary to the First Presidency (Joseph Anderson)

“The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.” (In a 1952 letter; and again in 1965 (cited in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol. XV, No. 1, Spring 1982, p.181-183)

Statements That There Is, or Could Be, Progression Between Kingdoms

Franklin D. Richards (Later called to the Twelve in 1849)

Hiram [Smith] said Aug 1st [18]43 Those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or recede to the Telestial [or] else the moon could not be a type [viz. a symbol of that kingdom]. [for] it [the moon] "waxes & wanes." (From a sermon transcribed by Franklin D. Richards in Words of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 24, 1 August 1843)

Wilford Woodruff (Quorum of the Twelve)

In conversing upon various principles President [Brigham] Young said none would inherit this Earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods and able to endure the fullness of the presence of God, except they would be permitted to take with them some servants for whom they would be held responsible. All others would have to inherit another kingdom, even that kingdom agreeing with the law which they had kept. He said they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom, but it would be a slow progress. (Journal of Wilford Woodruff, 5 Aug 1855)

Franklin D. Richards (Quorum of the Twelve)

The Savior tells us that the terrestrial glory, or kingdom, is likened unto the glory of the moon, which is not of the brightness of the sun, neither of the smallness nor dimness of the stars. But those others who have no part in marrying or giving of marriage in the last resurrection, they become as stars, and even differ from each other in glory; but those in the terrestrial kingdom are those who will come forth at the time when Enoch comes back, when the Savior comes again to dwell upon the earth; when Father Abraham will be there with the Urim and Thummim to look after every son and daughter of his race; to make known all things that are needed to be known, and with them enter into their promised inheritance. Thus the people of God will go forward. They will go forward, like unto the new moon, increasing in knowledge and brightness and glory, until they come to a fullness of celestial glory. (Journal of Discourses Vol. 25:236, 17 May 1884)

Joseph F. Smith (President)

Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for. (Improvement Era 14:87, November 1910)

J. Reuben Clark, Jr. (First Presidency)

I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come. (Church News, p. 3 , 23 April 1960)

James E. Talmage (Quorum of the Twelve)

It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase. (Articles of Faith, (1899), p.420-421)

**NOTE this was the original edition, the subsequent versions adjusted the wording **

B.H. Roberts (Presidency of the Seventy)

The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial–that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the celestial glory–having before them the privilege also of eternal progress–have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement. Thus: Those whose faith and works are such only as to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to enable them to entrance into the celestial kingdom–they may arrive where these were, but never where they are. (New Witnesses for God, 1:391-392)

Statements Declaring That There is No Progression Between Kingdoms

George Albert Smith (President)

There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the scriptures and revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end. (Conference Report, October 1945, p.172)

Spencer W. Kimball (Quorum of the Twelve)

After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right. (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.50; The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.243-244)

Joseph Fielding Smith (Quorum of the Twelve)

It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory?

The answer to this question is, No!

The scriptures are clear on this point. Speaking of those who go to the telestial kingdom, the revelation says: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

Notwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is "worlds without end," yet in time they will get where God was, but he will have gone on to other heights.

This is false reasoning, illogical, and creates mischief in making people think they may procrastinate their repentance, but in course of time they will reach exaltation in celestial glory.

Now let us see how faulty this reasoning is. If in time those who enter the telestial glory may progress till they reach the stage in which the celestial is in now -- then they are in celestial glory, are they not, even if the celestial has advanced? That being the case (I state this for the argument only, for it is not true), then they partake of all the blessings which are now celestial. That means that they become gods, have exaltation, gain the fulness of the Father, and receive a continuation of the "seeds forever." The Lord, however, has said that these blessings, which are celestial blessings, they may never have; they are barred forever!

The celestial and terrestrial and telestial glories, I have heard compared to the wheels on a train. The second and third may, and will, reach the place where the first was, but the first will have moved on and will still be just the same distance in advance of them. This illustration is not true! The wheels do not run on the same track, and do not go in the same direction. The terrestrial and the telestial are limited in their powers of advancement, worlds without end. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:31-32)

Bruce R. McConkie (Quorum of the Twelve)

There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?"

It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies - some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

Of those in the telestial world it is written:

"And they shall be servants of the Most High, but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).

Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it the revelation says:.

Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all etemity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16-17]

They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere. ("The Seven Deadly Heresies," Classic Speeches, Provo, UT: Brigham Young University, 1994, pp. 175-176)

So progression from kingdoms is not defined, but that's not mmp. Living more than one life on earth, being reincarnated for another life in another mortal body is not disputed, it's a false teaching, Joseph Smith jr rejected reincarnation.

[jmack]

I agree that the KFD is pretty solid doctrine. However, your reading of it is flawed. "Grace to grace" and "everlasting burnings" do not equate to reincarnation. It doesnt line up with Holy writ, none of it. We have a few lines from a talk by Brigham and Joseph that have been taken out of context and now we have a whole new doctrine of reincarnation.

Will I come back as a women in my next life? What happens if I die in infancy in my next life? Do I get another do over? Can i come back as a horse next time? I'm serious. Why be constrained to being a human if we can shed bodies like a pair of cloths?

But the KFD DOES specifically say that Jesus' father did what Jesus did.

"The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again."

So if Jesus had to do what his Father did to become like his father and dwell where his father dwells ("everlasting burnings"), what makes you the exception? I'm assuming you believe as most members do that you have the potential to become like your Heavenly Father...but you think you are going to get there a different way than Jesus did and Father did? That's a bigger stretch to me than the idea than that this life isn't a one off.

In answer to your (serious?) questions...if you're asking those, you're missing the point. Multiple probations are not random...they are progressive. Line upon line. To "come back" (which, by the way, assumes that all our lives are one the same world, which I don't necessarily believe) as a horse doesn't seem to serve a purpose of learning more or proving yourself further. But "coming back" in, say, the role of an Adam, and surely as a Savior certainly does. So I would say no, you will probably "come back" in a role that will help you learn to use your priesthood to serve others and get you closer to being a Savior, which would be as a man in a greater capacity than the one you’re currently in. Just my thoughts, of course.

One thing you have to try to dodge, though, is that if you believe this life is the only one, then you must admit that you are superior, or at least much more lucky, than your brothers and sisters born in other eras and circumstances, indicated by the fact that unlike 99.99999 percent of the world's population throughout history, you have knowledge and access to the latter-day gospel of Jesus Christ. "More valiant" is the euphemism we often use in the church. But really would should just come out and say it..."we think we are better than them, just as Michael, Joseph Smith or Jesus are better than us."

"More progressed" is much more in line with the teachings of the of the worth and potential of each child of God, imo.

Just because Christ is doing what the Father is doing does not mean we have to be sacrificial lambs too. He was special in that he was the first born of the Father. No matter how you slice it, that reality will never change. Neither you nor I are the first born of the Father. That role went to Christ and His role was that of Savior. He has promised that thru Him, we can still attain all that He has inherited thru obedience to the gospel. He never said, "maybe in a couple more live's, you might become like me and live on an alien world to be crucified as well."

I do believe the KFD to be inspired and true, but members are making some mighty big assumptions that mirror Buhddist philosophy. We have THIS life to determine our 2nd estate. People who did not have a chance to recieve the gospel in this life are recieving it in the spirit world and their work is being done or will be done in the temple by proxy. If reincarnation were the truth, then temple work would be a redundancy. Why get baptized for the dead when they are going to come back anyways and probably get baptized during that lifetime? Another problem with this reincarnation fantasy, is the contradictions inherent to it. For one, say we get sealed to somebody in this life. Then we reincarnate and we get sealed to another person. Are we sealed to both? As a Male, that may not be farfetched, but what about sisters? Will they have two husbands they are sealed to? Or will they pick their favorite one? Will we keep our gender, or is that fluid too?

Again, I ask you to demonstrate a shred of scripture that indicates that we will be reincarnated. I can demonstrate scores of scripture that state emphatically, that this life is our time to do it. If we dont do it now, we will need the work to be done for us by proxy in the temple. We will not be waiting to be born in another galaxy to try it again.

Believe as you will, Rick Grimes. You obviously have the eternities figured out.

Quite a coincidence that the Father AND the Savior were both “firstborns” considering the odds of being born first is like one is billions and billions. Perhaps there is more to becoming a first born than just magically being the first spirit child your heavenly parents “created...”

Which makes me wonder, if procreation is eternal, that would mean HF and HM will continue to have spirit babies, right? So that must mean Jesus, as their firstborn spirit child (you can only have one) will save their children forever and ever, right?

*deadpan*

But you seem to believe you have the eternities figured out, and you've put yourself in the same level as god and christ, believing that you'll be a christ one day. I say let's wait and find out when we have the capacity to comprehend. Nutcase lori vallow thinks she's been reincarnated many times, and thinks she's a god and even a translated being. It gives her power I guess, and it apparently makes her think rules don't apply to her. I think we should be humble, do the things christ has asked us to and worry about becoming gods and what that entails when we actually have completed this earthly test. Don't put the cart before the horse.

[jmack]

This perspective may seem logical at first glance but it falls apart on further inspection.

It's pretty clear from the scriptures that not everyone has equal spiritual knowledge or opportunities to choose between good and evil.

It's one thing to say that a fully accountable murderer, sorcerer, or adulterer, or someone who neglects the poor, would gain nothing from being sent back to do the same thing again - it's in his nature.

If reincarnation exists, the only people who would benefit from it would be those who had little knowledge of good and evil, or were surrounded by bad examples while growing up, or who died as children, or who suffered mental dysfunction, or who lived honest and charitable lives but within a defective religious framework that couldn't bring them back to God.

I know the official church teaching is that these people (the bulk of the human population) will be handled by spirit missionaries and proxy ordinances. I just find that hard to reconcile with many passages in the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, where the purpose of life on Earth is to experience moral conflict and prove our love for God and our neighbors. So why bother to create and populate an Earth if most of the heavy lifting is going to be done in the Spirit World?

Just a thought, perhaps the population of the world is a lot smaller than we think. If there are multiple mortalilties, one could come back on this same world again and would be given another chance to follow Christ.

If this is true, there's no point in temple work. So, I think you gotta choose. Either you believe in this multiple lives belief or lds doctrine, because they aren't compatible.

Temple ordinances are symbols which point to real experiences with the divine, so I don’t think it has to be so black and white.

We're taught that these ordinances are necessary for salvation. You are suggesting they have no valud power but are inly symbols. If that's true, the doctrine of salvation for the dead is false. You can't have it both ways,

[jmack]

Some converts will bring past beliefs with them when they join the church. Early saints may have been influenced by spiritualism, which was popular in the 19th century. I think some were trying to understand and flesh out certain things, like the eternities and making the common mistake of mixing in philosophies of men with doctrines they learned in the church.

But we are totally beyond that. Totally.

Heber c Kimball, eliza snow et all were not totally beyond that, they were converts in the 19th century and would likely have known about spiritualism and maybe believed some of it. That's my point. People like to use them to claim mmp is doctrine, it isn't.

So you’re saying they were lying about what JS taught them abd just making stuff up based on their previously held beliefs?

Coincidentally (or not), several early Christian writers believed in various sorts of reincarnation too.

Spirtualism was a popular belief and various parts of it were believed by many. They weren't lying, they were doing what some of you are doing, interpreting Josephs words to fit their own beliefs. People do this all the time, they don't consider it lying, they hear what they want to hear.

[jmack]

But the KFD DOES specifically say that Jesus' father did what Jesus did.

"The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again."

So if Jesus had to do what his Father did to become like his father and dwell where his father dwells ("everlasting burnings"), what makes you the exception? I'm assuming you believe as most members do that you have the potential to become like your Heavenly Father...but you think you are going to get there a different way than Jesus did and Father did? That's a bigger stretch to me than the idea than that this life isn't a one off.

In answer to your (serious?) questions...if you're asking those, you're missing the point. Multiple probations are not random...they are progressive. Line upon line. To "come back" (which, by the way, assumes that all our lives are one the same world, which I don't necessarily believe) as a horse doesn't seem to serve a purpose of learning more or proving yourself further. But "coming back" in, say, the role of an Adam, and surely as a Savior certainly does. So I would say no, you will probably "come back" in a role that will help you learn to use your priesthood to serve others and get you closer to being a Savior, which would be as a man in a greater capacity than the one you’re currently in. Just my thoughts, of course.

One thing you have to try to dodge, though, is that if you believe this life is the only one, then you must admit that you are superior, or at least much more lucky, than your brothers and sisters born in other eras and circumstances, indicated by the fact that unlike 99.99999 percent of the world's population throughout history, you have knowledge and access to the latter-day gospel of Jesus Christ. "More valiant" is the euphemism we often use in the church. But really would should just come out and say it..."we think we are better than them, just as Michael, Joseph Smith or Jesus are better than us."

"More progressed" is much more in line with the teachings of the of the worth and potential of each child of God, imo.

What is meant by everlasting burnings? Does that mean hell or something else?

A Celestial Earth doesn't need a sun.


22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof

I guess I’m just not getting the connection on a practical level. Everlasting burnings? Like a fire? Is heaven a bunch of fires? Like hell? I know I sound foolish, this burnings word has never been associated with heaven in my mind. The HG is said to be a burning in the bosom so maybe it’s nit to do with light or sun but with truth?

This is an example of their interpreting what Joseph said to suggest he was preaching mmp. He wasn't. Only a handful of people left writings suggesting their own belief in some kind of other lives, in differing forms. No one flat out said Joseph taught that we live multiple mortal lives on earth. That's what I'm saying is a false teaching not supported by the scriptures, by Joseph Smith or the doctrines of the church.

[jmack]

I'm not understanding how the temperature of being around God had to do with reincarnation? I've read people quote the "everlasting burnings" and such, but I'm not making the connection of this to being born on multiple worlds.

Everlasting burnings are for those who receive celestial glory. I was talking about the telestial and terrestrial glory specifically. I was saying perhaps those who inherit the telestial kingdom are given another mortal life on another telestial world. Perhaps to enter into another MMP could be a type of resurrection.

And that's just your speculation, but it's not doctrine or supported by scriptures. And progressing from kingdom to kingdom doesn't have to involve multiple mortal probations, so it's not necessary to believe in mmp to also think that progression in kingdoms is possible.

[Alaris]

But the KFD DOES specifically say that Jesus' father did what Jesus did.

"The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again."

So if Jesus had to do what his Father did to become like his father and dwell where his father dwells ("everlasting burnings"), what makes you the exception? I'm assuming you believe as most members do that you have the potential to become like your Heavenly Father...but you think you are going to get there a different way than Jesus did and Father did? That's a bigger stretch to me than the idea than that this life isn't a one off.

In answer to your (serious?) questions...if you're asking those, you're missing the point. Multiple probations are not random...they are progressive. Line upon line. To "come back" (which, by the way, assumes that all our lives are one the same world, which I don't necessarily believe) as a horse doesn't seem to serve a purpose of learning more or proving yourself further. But "coming back" in, say, the role of an Adam, and surely as a Savior certainly does. So I would say no, you will probably "come back" in a role that will help you learn to use your priesthood to serve others and get you closer to being a Savior, which would be as a man in a greater capacity than the one you’re currently in. Just my thoughts, of course.

One thing you have to try to dodge, though, is that if you believe this life is the only one, then you must admit that you are superior, or at least much more lucky, than your brothers and sisters born in other eras and circumstances, indicated by the fact that unlike 99.99999 percent of the world's population throughout history, you have knowledge and access to the latter-day gospel of Jesus Christ. "More valiant" is the euphemism we often use in the church. But really would should just come out and say it..."we think we are better than them, just as Michael, Joseph Smith or Jesus are better than us."

"More progressed" is much more in line with the teachings of the of the worth and potential of each child of God, imo.

Just because Christ is doing what the Father is doing does not mean we have to be sacrificial lambs too. He was special in that he was the first born of the Father. No matter how you slice it, that reality will never change. Neither you nor I are the first born of the Father. That role went to Christ and His role was that of Savior. He has promised that thru Him, we can still attain all that He has inherited thru obedience to the gospel. He never said, "maybe in a couple more live's, you might become like me and live on an alien world to be crucified as well."

I do believe the KFD to be inspired and true, but members are making some mighty big assumptions that mirror Buhddist philosophy. We have THIS life to determine our 2nd estate. People who did not have a chance to recieve the gospel in this life are recieving it in the spirit world and their work is being done or will be done in the temple by proxy. If reincarnation were the truth, then temple work would be a redundancy. Why get baptized for the dead when they are going to come back anyways and probably get baptized during that lifetime? Another problem with this reincarnation fantasy, is the contradictions inherent to it. For one, say we get sealed to somebody in this life. Then we reincarnate and we get sealed to another person. Are we sealed to both? As a Male, that may not be farfetched, but what about sisters? Will they have two husbands they are sealed to? Or will they pick their favorite one? Will we keep our gender, or is that fluid too?

Again, I ask you to demonstrate a shred of scripture that indicates that we will be reincarnated. I can demonstrate scores of scripture that state emphatically, that this life is our time to do it. If we dont do it now, we will need the work to be done for us by proxy in the temple. We will not be waiting to be born in another galaxy to try it again.

Believe as you will, Rick Grimes. You obviously have the eternities figured out.

Quite a coincidence that the Father AND the Savior were both “firstborns” considering the odds of being born first is like one is billions and billions. Perhaps there is more to becoming a first born than just magically being the first spirit child your heavenly parents “created...”

Which makes me wonder, if procreation is eternal, that would mean HF and HM will continue to have spirit babies, right? So that must mean Jesus, as their firstborn spirit child (you can only have one) will save their children forever and ever, right?

*deadpan*

But you seem to believe you have the eternities figured out, and you've put yourself in the same level as god and christ, believing that you'll be a christ one day. I say let's wait and find out when we have the capacity to comprehend. Nutcase lori vallow thinks she's been reincarnated many times, and thinks she's a god and even a translated being. It gives her power I guess, and it apparently makes her think rules don't apply to her. I think we should be humble, do the things christ has asked us to and worry about becoming gods and what that entails when we actually have completed this earthly test. Don't put the cart before the horse.

Whoever Lori Vallow is, that's a strawman attack - taking the most absurd, extreme example and attacking it.

Firstly, believing you can one day become as God is with your own spirit children doesn't mean you've put yourself on the level of with God and Christ now but acknowledge the ends to which we were created.

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

"Let's wait and find out" is in line with "we have enough" which attitude the scriptures strongly warn us against. We must always be seeking and learning or we begin to lose that which we have - and if we don't change course eventually the adversary wraps his binding chains around us. (2 Nephi 28 / Alma 12.)

Believing we can be as Heavenly Father is nothing new, so it's curious why so many folks take issue at being as Jesus. Jesus clearly taught that His Father is Greater than he. Davka wasn't the first person to teach that we will do Jesus' works some day -- Jesus Himself did.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

He's basically saying "you'll do my works and then heavenly father's works after that." It means what it means. And his audience is important. Jesus taught the general-audience Gospel on the mount, but the above scriptures were aimed at His Apostles who were walking at Jesus' side to learn His works.

Knowing there is a horse in front of the cart and one day we'll be the horse is not putting the cart ahead of the horse. The proper perspective of the plan of exaltation (like Davka said - different than the plan of salvation) and knowing who you are and where you are on your eternal path is extremely important. Without that perspective we get these folks who beat themselves up to the point of eating disorders where general authorities like Elder Holland have to speak to the fact that God doesn't expect you to be perfect in this life.

MMP is both in the scriptures and there is much evidence Joseph Smith taught it. Brigham Young taught it. He told the women of his audience they would one day be Eves of their own worlds.

The temple shows us where we are in relation to the tokens and show that Adam and Eve have already progressed through these tokens. This is the significance of names of who we were, are, and what comes next. The fourth token aligns to kings and queens - Adam and Eve. There is one path to Godhood.


Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory. ~ Wilford Woodruff, Book of Revelations.

[Alexander]

Just a thought, perhaps the population of the world is a lot smaller than we think. If there are multiple mortalilties, one could come back on this same world again and would be given another chance to follow Christ.

If this is true, there's no point in temple work. So, I think you gotta choose. Either you believe in this multiple lives belief or lds doctrine, because they aren't compatible.

Temple ordinances are symbols which point to real experiences with the divine, so I don’t think it has to be so black and white.

We're taught that these ordinances are necessary for salvation. You are suggesting they have no valud power but are inly symbols. If that's true, the doctrine of salvation for the dead is false. You can't have it both ways,

The only things required for salvation are what is taught in Christ’s Doctrine (faith, hope, charity, repentance, baptism of water, baptism of fire, endure to the end).
As I understand it, The baptisms for the dead are to prepare our family members who are close to us to receive their baptism of fire, which can be received in the next life, but not without baptism. We have to be close to the people receiving, or the ordinance will not work. As we are sealed to Eternal Life and given Higher Priesthood we can bind those family units together. There is sealing between us and the Savior, Father and Mother, our spouse and children, but it is all done directly with the Lord, not in earthly temples. The temple’s purpose is to point us toward the real thing.

[jmack]

I'm not understanding how the temperature of being around God had to do with reincarnation? I've read people quote the "everlasting burnings" and such, but I'm not making the connection of this to being born on multiple worlds.

They equate "everlasting burnings " as something only those who preformed the Atonement can achieve ..lol the irony is.....THIS IS THE POINT OF THE ATONMENT......

This is what is happening with MMP imo:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them." 3Ne 11:39-40

Okay. A. Who is “they”? It’s not like there’s an organized pro-MMP group.

B. The KFD is about exaltation, not salvation. Two different things. The atonement saves man from death and hell. There is nothing, however, that says is *exalts* us. This is, IMO, one of the major disconnects between LDS theology and mainstream Christianity. They are talking about salvation, but unaware of exaltation. Are they correct? Yes! The atonement absolutely saves us. But to what end? What is the difference between a terrestrial kingdom-ite and a celestial kingdom-ite?

Being able to endure the presence of the father is dwelling in “Everlasting burnings,” and, IMO, is a matter of exaltation more than the salvation extended to all mankind.

What do you think “grace to grace” means? I’m really curious.

To me, it is clear that “Grace” is synonymous with atonement. “From atonement to atonement.”

The Atonement is incredible, remarkable, amazing...how is it any less great if it saves us from falling so we can continue progressing versus “poof! You’re a god!” What is the difference between what you believe about the atonement and what our mainstream Christian brothers and sisters believe?

I really think some of you are worrying about the wrong things. Worry about salvation, which involves living the gospel in the here and now and if you avail yourself of the atonement, daily, you will, grace for grace, become sanctified and justified and receive exaltation. This isn't that complicated. The gospel was supposed to be the good news, not a bunch of gnostic esoteric philosophies. God and christ teach that we should be grounded in the doctrine of Christ, not thinking about fulfilling the atonement for others, but worshipping our redeemer who did for us what we could not do for ourselves or for others.

[jmack]

Just because Christ is doing what the Father is doing does not mean we have to be sacrificial lambs too. He was special in that he was the first born of the Father. No matter how you slice it, that reality will never change. Neither you nor I are the first born of the Father. That role went to Christ and His role was that of Savior. He has promised that thru Him, we can still attain all that He has inherited thru obedience to the gospel. He never said, "maybe in a couple more live's, you might become like me and live on an alien world to be crucified as well."

I do believe the KFD to be inspired and true, but members are making some mighty big assumptions that mirror Buhddist philosophy. We have THIS life to determine our 2nd estate. People who did not have a chance to recieve the gospel in this life are recieving it in the spirit world and their work is being done or will be done in the temple by proxy. If reincarnation were the truth, then temple work would be a redundancy. Why get baptized for the dead when they are going to come back anyways and probably get baptized during that lifetime? Another problem with this reincarnation fantasy, is the contradictions inherent to it. For one, say we get sealed to somebody in this life. Then we reincarnate and we get sealed to another person. Are we sealed to both? As a Male, that may not be farfetched, but what about sisters? Will they have two husbands they are sealed to? Or will they pick their favorite one? Will we keep our gender, or is that fluid too?

Again, I ask you to demonstrate a shred of scripture that indicates that we will be reincarnated. I can demonstrate scores of scripture that state emphatically, that this life is our time to do it. If we dont do it now, we will need the work to be done for us by proxy in the temple. We will not be waiting to be born in another galaxy to try it again.

Believe as you will, Rick Grimes. You obviously have the eternities figured out.

Quite a coincidence that the Father AND the Savior were both “firstborns” considering the odds of being born first is like one is billions and billions. Perhaps there is more to becoming a first born than just magically being the first spirit child your heavenly parents “created...”

Which makes me wonder, if procreation is eternal, that would mean HF and HM will continue to have spirit babies, right? So that must mean Jesus, as their firstborn spirit child (you can only have one) will save their children forever and ever, right?

*deadpan*

But you seem to believe you have the eternities figured out, and you've put yourself in the same level as god and christ, believing that you'll be a christ one day. I say let's wait and find out when we have the capacity to comprehend. Nutcase lori vallow thinks she's been reincarnated many times, and thinks she's a god and even a translated being. It gives her power I guess, and it apparently makes her think rules don't apply to her. I think we should be humble, do the things christ has asked us to and worry about becoming gods and what that entails when we actually have completed this earthly test. Don't put the cart before the horse.

Whoever Lori Vallow is, that's a strawman attack - taking the most absurd, extreme example and attacking it.

Firstly, believing you can one day become as God is with your own spirit children doesn't mean you've put yourself on the level of with God and Christ now but acknowledge the ends to which we were created.

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

"Let's wait and find out" is in line with "we have enough" which attitude the scriptures strongly warn us against. We must always be seeking and learning or we begin to lose that which we have - and if we don't change course eventually the adversary wraps his binding chains around us. (2 Nephi 28 / Alma 12.)

Believing we can be as Heavenly Father is nothing new, so it's curious why so many folks take issue at being as Jesus. Jesus clearly taught that His Father is Greater than he. Davka wasn't the first person to teach that we will do Jesus' works some day -- Jesus Himself did.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

He's basically saying "you'll do my works and then heavenly father's works after that." It means what it means. And his audience is important. Jesus taught the general-audience Gospel on the mount, but the above scriptures were aimed at His Apostles who were walking at Jesus' side to learn His works.

Knowing there is a horse in front of the cart and one day we'll be the horse is not putting the cart ahead of the horse. The proper perspective of the plan of exaltation (like Davka said - different than the plan of salvation) and knowing who you are and where you are on your eternal path is extremely important. Without that perspective we get these folks who beat themselves up to the point of eating disorders where general authorities like Elder Holland have to speak to the fact that God doesn't expect you to be perfect in this life.

MMP is both in the scriptures and there is much evidence Joseph Smith taught it. Brigham Young taught it. He told the women of his audience they would one day be Eves of their own worlds.

The temple shows us where we are in relation to the tokens and show that Adam and Eve have already progressed through these tokens. This is the significance of names of who we were, are, and what comes next. The fourth token aligns to kings and queens - Adam and Eve. There is one path to Godhood.


Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory. ~ Wilford Woodruff, Book of Revelations.

I mention lori vallow because her family has blamed her extreme beliefs for the negative changes in her, she believes mmp, claiming to have been several women in history. Julie Rowe does too. Her beliefs took her out of the church. Those are not strawmen, they are consequences to choices that included having some particular beliefs that aren't doctrine and it's effect on choices. Mmp is not in the scriptures, it is not doctrine. It is a speculative belief of some. It isn't compatible with sound doctrines and makes temple work useless.

[Alaris]

Believe as you will, Rick Grimes. You obviously have the eternities figured out.

Quite a coincidence that the Father AND the Savior were both “firstborns” considering the odds of being born first is like one is billions and billions. Perhaps there is more to becoming a first born than just magically being the first spirit child your heavenly parents “created...”

Which makes me wonder, if procreation is eternal, that would mean HF and HM will continue to have spirit babies, right? So that must mean Jesus, as their firstborn spirit child (you can only have one) will save their children forever and ever, right?

*deadpan*

But you seem to believe you have the eternities figured out, and you've put yourself in the same level as god and christ, believing that you'll be a christ one day. I say let's wait and find out when we have the capacity to comprehend. Nutcase lori vallow thinks she's been reincarnated many times, and thinks she's a god and even a translated being. It gives her power I guess, and it apparently makes her think rules don't apply to her. I think we should be humble, do the things christ has asked us to and worry about becoming gods and what that entails when we actually have completed this earthly test. Don't put the cart before the horse.

Whoever Lori Vallow is, that's a strawman attack - taking the most absurd, extreme example and attacking it.

Firstly, believing you can one day become as God is with your own spirit children doesn't mean you've put yourself on the level of with God and Christ now but acknowledge the ends to which we were created.

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

"Let's wait and find out" is in line with "we have enough" which attitude the scriptures strongly warn us against. We must always be seeking and learning or we begin to lose that which we have - and if we don't change course eventually the adversary wraps his binding chains around us. (2 Nephi 28 / Alma 12.)

Believing we can be as Heavenly Father is nothing new, so it's curious why so many folks take issue at being as Jesus. Jesus clearly taught that His Father is Greater than he. Davka wasn't the first person to teach that we will do Jesus' works some day -- Jesus Himself did.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

He's basically saying "you'll do my works and then heavenly father's works after that." It means what it means. And his audience is important. Jesus taught the general-audience Gospel on the mount, but the above scriptures were aimed at His Apostles who were walking at Jesus' side to learn His works.

Knowing there is a horse in front of the cart and one day we'll be the horse is not putting the cart ahead of the horse. The proper perspective of the plan of exaltation (like Davka said - different than the plan of salvation) and knowing who you are and where you are on your eternal path is extremely important. Without that perspective we get these folks who beat themselves up to the point of eating disorders where general authorities like Elder Holland have to speak to the fact that God doesn't expect you to be perfect in this life.

MMP is both in the scriptures and there is much evidence Joseph Smith taught it. Brigham Young taught it. He told the women of his audience they would one day be Eves of their own worlds.

The temple shows us where we are in relation to the tokens and show that Adam and Eve have already progressed through these tokens. This is the significance of names of who we were, are, and what comes next. The fourth token aligns to kings and queens - Adam and Eve. There is one path to Godhood.


Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory. ~ Wilford Woodruff, Book of Revelations.

I mention lori vallow because her family has blamed her extreme beliefs for the negative changes in her, she believes mmp, claiming to have been several women in history. Julie Rowe does too. Her beliefs took her out of the church. Those are not strawmen, they are consequences to choices that included having some particular beliefs that aren't doctrine and it's effect on choices. Mmp is not in the scriptures, it is not doctrine. It is a speculative belief of some. It isn't compatible with sound doctrines and makes temple work useless.

You've hardly established cause and effect. Wilford Woodruff turned out alright. So did Heber C Kimball and Eliza R Snow. So did Joseph Smith and Jesus.