Church authority vs authority from God

[Alexander]

What are your thoughts on the difference between church authority and authority from God. I have been reading recently in Mosiah 18, and was thinking about how the priests of Noah were immoral and were not loyal to their duties in the church, and how the words of Abinidi struck the heart of Alma. This allowed the lord to lead out righteous people and create a church. The authority Alma had to baptize and such was given to him directly from God. In verse 12 Alma cries out to the lord to ask for permission to baptize, and it is granted of the spirit.

I am seeing a difference between authority of the church vs authority of God. To be ordained or have priesthood “conferred” doesn't actually confirm priesthood upon a person. I believe that it in most cases it is a formal pronouncement that the person has the rite to perform priesthood functions in the church, and that such preisthood is something they still need to seek. Similar with the Gift of the Holy Ghost being a directive to seek for the real thing. Just because someone was given authority from the heirarchy of the church to be able to do a specific task in the church, does not guarantee that God will honor what they do. True priesthood is associated with the level of relationship we have with God.

Based on these things, I would assume that anyone who has a relationship with Christ (they don't even have to be a part of the COJCOLDS) can receive permission and authority to baptize, perform miracles, and commune with God one on one.

What do you think?

[Zathura]

What are your thoughts on the difference between church authority and authority from God. I have been reading recently in Mosiah 18, and was thinking about how the priests of Noah were immoral and were not loyal to their duties in the church, and how the words of Abinidi struck the heart of Alma. This allowed the lord to lead out righteous people and create a church. The authority Alma had to baptize and such was given to him directly from God. In verse 12 Alma cries out to the lord to ask for permission to baptize, and it is granted of the spirit.

I am seeing a difference between authority of the church vs authority of God. To be ordained or have priesthood “conferred” doesn't actually confirm priesthood upon a person. I believe that it in most cases it is a formal pronouncement that the person has the rite to perform priesthood functions in the church, and that such preisthood is something they still need to seek. Similar with the Gift of the Holy Ghost being a directive to seek for the real thing. Just because someone was given authority from the heirarchy of the church to be able to do a specific task in the church, does not guarantee that God will honor what they do. True priesthood is associated with the level of relationship we have with God.

Based on these things, I would assume that anyone who has a relationship with Christ (they don't even have to be a part of the COJCOLDS) can receive permission and authority to baptize, perform miracles, and commune with God one on one.

What do you think?

The only authority that matters is the one that comes directly from God. Regardless of whatever ordination you receive from man, if you want to become a proper tool in the Lords hands, seek to have that ordination confirmed upon you by God.

The lack of manifestations of the Holy Ghost, the lack of priesthood power , the animosity towards signs and miracles, the discouraging of seeking these things is in part because there is an ingrained belief that this authority and power has been given to man to pass on. The consequences should be obvious. We remain ineffective tools, we are less effective im bringing others unto Christ

I want to add that I have personally been a part of MANY lessons in church where this has been discussed, and it’s clear that with our mouths we understand that we need power and authority from God, but I’m not sure we have truly internalized this and practiced this as we should. We are lacking.

[simpleton]

What are your thoughts on the difference between church authority and authority from God. I have been reading recently in Mosiah 18, and was thinking about how the priests of Noah were immoral and were not loyal to their duties in the church, and how the words of Abinidi struck the heart of Alma. This allowed the lord to lead out righteous people and create a church. The authority Alma had to baptize and such was given to him directly from God. In verse 12 Alma cries out to the lord to ask for permission to baptize, and it is granted of the spirit.

I am seeing a difference between authority of the church vs authority of God. To be ordained or have priesthood “conferred” doesn't actually confirm priesthood upon a person. I believe that it in most cases it is a formal pronouncement that the person has the rite to perform priesthood functions in the church, and that such preisthood is something they still need to seek. Similar with the Gift of the Holy Ghost being a directive to seek for the real thing. Just because someone was given authority from the heirarchy of the church to be able to do a specific task in the church, does not guarantee that God will honor what they do. True priesthood is associated with the level of relationship we have with God.

Based on these things, I would assume that anyone who has a relationship with Christ (they don't even have to be a part of the COJCOLDS) can receive permission and authority to baptize, perform miracles, and commune with God one on one.

What do you think?

I think you hit upon a potentially sore topic. But I think you are spot on. You can get ordained by whomsoever that has authority here on earth, but unless you have that connection with heaven/God, I don't think you can do anything.

[righteousrepublic]

What are your thoughts on the difference between church authority and authority from God. I have been reading recently in Mosiah 18, and was thinking about how the priests of Noah were immoral and were not loyal to their duties in the church, and how the words of Abinidi struck the heart of Alma. This allowed the lord to lead out righteous people and create a church. The authority Alma had to baptize and such was given to him directly from God. In verse 12 Alma cries out to the lord to ask for permission to baptize, and it is granted of the spirit.

I am seeing a difference between authority of the church vs authority of God. To be ordained or have priesthood “conferred” doesn't actually confirm priesthood upon a person. I believe that it in most cases it is a formal pronouncement that the person has the rite to perform priesthood functions in the church, and that such preisthood is something they still need to seek. Similar with the Gift of the Holy Ghost being a directive to seek for the real thing. Just because someone was given authority from the heirarchy of the church to be able to do a specific task in the church, does not guarantee that God will honor what they do. True priesthood is associated with the level of relationship we have with God.

Based on these things, I would assume that anyone who has a relationship with Christ (they don't even have to be a part of the COJCOLDS) can receive permission and authority to baptize, perform miracles, and commune with God one on one.

What do you think?

Priesthood is the power and authority of God given to man, including the authority to perform ordinances....

Try to raise someone from the dead without priesthood authority.
Try giving someone a healing blessing without priesthood authority.
Try causing something to be bound on earth and in heaven without priesthood authority.
Try bestowing the Holy Ghost onto a person without priesthood authority.
Try walking on water without priesthood authority.

What links all these things together. in other words, what is the missing factor that causes these things to work?

Does this answer your inquiry?

He who has ears to hear and eyes to see.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthoo ... ay_Saints)

[LDS Watchman]

What are your thoughts on the difference between church authority and authority from God. I have been reading recently in Mosiah 18, and was thinking about how the priests of Noah were immoral and were not loyal to their duties in the church, and how the words of Abinidi struck the heart of Alma. This allowed the lord to lead out righteous people and create a church. The authority Alma had to baptize and such was given to him directly from God. In verse 12 Alma cries out to the lord to ask for permission to baptize, and it is granted of the spirit.

I am seeing a difference between authority of the church vs authority of God. To be ordained or have priesthood “conferred” doesn't actually confirm priesthood upon a person. I believe that it in most cases it is a formal pronouncement that the person has the rite to perform priesthood functions in the church, and that such preisthood is something they still need to seek. Similar with the Gift of the Holy Ghost being a directive to seek for the real thing. Just because someone was given authority from the heirarchy of the church to be able to do a specific task in the church, does not guarantee that God will honor what they do. True priesthood is associated with the level of relationship we have with God.

Based on these things, I would assume that anyone who has a relationship with Christ (they don't even have to be a part of the COJCOLDS) can receive permission and authority to baptize, perform miracles, and commune with God one on one.

What do you think?

Their certainly is a difference between authority in a church and authority from God.

Having said that, I don't think there's any scripural justification for there being people outside the church with legitimate authority from God to baptize.

If this authority can be received by anyone directly from the heavens, then there would have been no need for John the Baptist to confer the aaronic priesthood on Joseph and Oliver, and to tell them that this priesthood authority wouldn't be taken away again.

There would have been no need for the restoration period, if anyone can get authority from God anytime from the heavens.

The idea that a priesthood ordination in the church does not actually confer authority from God, but is merely an invitation to get the priesthood from heaven directly is a false Snufferite teaching.

Having said that, true power in the priesthood is completely contigent on a man's worthiness before God. Priesthood power can not be given from one man to another.

[Alexander]

What are your thoughts on the difference between church authority and authority from God. I have been reading recently in Mosiah 18, and was thinking about how the priests of Noah were immoral and were not loyal to their duties in the church, and how the words of Abinidi struck the heart of Alma. This allowed the lord to lead out righteous people and create a church. The authority Alma had to baptize and such was given to him directly from God. In verse 12 Alma cries out to the lord to ask for permission to baptize, and it is granted of the spirit.

I am seeing a difference between authority of the church vs authority of God. To be ordained or have priesthood “conferred” doesn't actually confirm priesthood upon a person. I believe that it in most cases it is a formal pronouncement that the person has the rite to perform priesthood functions in the church, and that such preisthood is something they still need to seek. Similar with the Gift of the Holy Ghost being a directive to seek for the real thing. Just because someone was given authority from the heirarchy of the church to be able to do a specific task in the church, does not guarantee that God will honor what they do. True priesthood is associated with the level of relationship we have with God.

Based on these things, I would assume that anyone who has a relationship with Christ (they don't even have to be a part of the COJCOLDS) can receive permission and authority to baptize, perform miracles, and commune with God one on one.

What do you think?

Priesthood is the power and authority of God given to man, including the authority to perform ordinances....

Try to raise someone from the dead without priesthood authority.
Try giving someone a healing blessing without priesthood authority.
Try causing something to be bound on earth and in heaven without priesthood authority.
Try bestowing the Holy Ghost onto a person without priesthood authority.
Try walking on water without priesthood authority.

What links all these things together. in other words, what is the missing factor that causes these things to work?

Does this answer your inquiry?

He who has ears to hear and eyes to see.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthoo ... ay_Saints)

Yes, we must have authority from God to use his power. my specific question was whether church preisthood authority was different from God's authority, or if they were one and the same. I'm starting to understand them as two different things and was wondering about other peoples thoughts

[Jonesy]

I think this matter ultimately is more complicated than we have in our limited understanding. Surely, others outside of church will obtain the highest kingdom.

What type of God would He be to condemn souls to eternally suffer because they got confused by an unfair world full of lies, with imperfect people who make errors, and can easily offend and lead people away? It is not Zion and so it is not even under higher laws, thus all should continue to humble themselves and repent. This applies to even leaders; God is no respecter of persons. All of us, even all prophets will receive correction. And yet, God is mighty to save!

That said, I think we may all agree that it was this church which stemmed all the knowledge and understanding that we have. I’m grateful for that; and until all signs of God have ceased in this church, I plan to stay with it. That seems how God has always worked. He never abandons us until we, through our agency, have fully rejected Him. God obviously recognizes its authority. I almost left, but I see the keys at work.

[Zathura]

The idea that a priesthood ordination in the church does not actually confer authority from God, but is merely an invitation to get the priesthood from heaven directly is a false Snufferite teaching.

Snuffer is a convenient scapegoat, but these ideas existed long before him, and will exist long after he's gone.

Read the story of Enoch, who lived simultaneously with other priesthood holders who would have ordained him in Moses 6. Notwithstanding his ordination at the hands of another man, it was not until God directly gave him the ability to do anything in the name of the Lord by his own voice.

26 And it came to pass that Enoch journeyed in the land, among the people; and as he journeyed, the aSpirit of God descended out of heaven, and abode upon him.

27 And he heard a avoice from heaven, saying: bEnoch, my son, cprophesy unto this people, and say unto them—Repent, for thus saith the Lord: I am dangry with this people, and my fierce anger is kindled against them; for their hearts have waxed ehard, and their fears are dull of hearing, and their eyes gcannot see afar off;

28 And for these many generations, ever since the day that I created them, have they gone astray, and have adenied me, and have sought their own counsels in the dark; and in their own abominations have they devised murder, and have not kept the commandments, which I gave unto their father, Adam.

29 Wherefore, they have foresworn themselves, and, by their oaths, they have brought upon themselves death; and a ahell I have prepared for them, if they repent not;

30 And this is a decree, which I have sent forth in the beginning of the world, from my own mouth, from the foundation thereof, and by the mouths of my servants, thy fathers, have I decreed it, even as it shall be sent forth in the world, unto the ends thereof.

31 And when Enoch had heard these words, he abowed himself to the earth, before the Lord, and spake before the Lord, saying: bWhy is it that I have found favor in thy sight, and am but a lad, and all the people chate me; for I am dslow of speech; wherefore am I thy servant?

32 And the Lord said unto Enoch: Go forth and do as I have commanded thee, and no man shall pierce thee. Open thy amouth, and it shall be filled, and I will give thee utterance, for all flesh is in my hands, and I will do as seemeth me good.

33 Say unto this people: aChoose ye bthis day, to serve the Lord God who made you.

34 Behold my aSpirit is upon you, wherefore all thy words will I justify; and the bmountains shall flee before you, and the crivers shall turn from their course; and thou shalt abide in me, and I in you; therefore dwalk with me.

Read the story of Adam, how did he receive the priesthood? By the Spirit of God, no man, no messenger was involved.

65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was aborn of the Spirit, and became quickened in the binner man.

66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with afire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the brecord of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;

67 And thou art after the aorder of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.

68 Behold, thou art aone in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my bsons. Amen.

in case you missed what happened:

"67 And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity."

You should know that this "order of him who was without beginner of days" etc. Refers to the Priesthood.

Melchizadek
JST GENESIS 14, this one is the most direct teaching on the topic:

27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,

28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;

29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.

Now, in case you doubt that Enoch properly received the priesthood in the section that I quoted because the Lord doesn't actually reference the priesthood, pay attention the power that he was given, and realize that those exact things are promised to those who receive this priesthood right here in JST Genesis 14 and that this promise was made directly to ENOCH.

30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;

31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.

NEPHI
Helaman 10

6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.

7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

By God's voice.

Jesus' Disciples
Matthew 16

Again, by the Lord's own voice, the Lord who happened to be in an earthly tabernacle at that time.

Jesus' Other Disciples in the Americas
3 Nephi 11+

Given the ability to confer the Holy Ghost directly from Jesus. They also receive the Holy Ghost , and yet it wasn't the result of a confirmation or laying on of hands at that moment.

How about this dispensation?
D&C 84:

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels acharge concerning you.

What need is there for God to "confirm" the priesthood upon them if they were already ordained? Because they didn't have it until God confirmed it upon them, regardless of ordination.


You need only look at the manifestations of God's power, of the gifts of the Holy Ghost, and the miracles wrought by the men who obtained the priesthood in this manner, and compare them to the literal millions of Mormon men who have obtained their "priesthood" through men. The fruit isn't there, but it can be, if we but do what the Lord's servants did in the scriptures.

[righteousrepublic]

What are your thoughts on the difference between church authority and authority from God. I have been reading recently in Mosiah 18, and was thinking about how the priests of Noah were immoral and were not loyal to their duties in the church, and how the words of Abinidi struck the heart of Alma. This allowed the lord to lead out righteous people and create a church. The authority Alma had to baptize and such was given to him directly from God. In verse 12 Alma cries out to the lord to ask for permission to baptize, and it is granted of the spirit.

I am seeing a difference between authority of the church vs authority of God. To be ordained or have priesthood “conferred” doesn't actually confirm priesthood upon a person. I believe that it in most cases it is a formal pronouncement that the person has the rite to perform priesthood functions in the church, and that such preisthood is something they still need to seek. Similar with the Gift of the Holy Ghost being a directive to seek for the real thing. Just because someone was given authority from the heirarchy of the church to be able to do a specific task in the church, does not guarantee that God will honor what they do. True priesthood is associated with the level of relationship we have with God.

Based on these things, I would assume that anyone who has a relationship with Christ (they don't even have to be a part of the COJCOLDS) can receive permission and authority to baptize, perform miracles, and commune with God one on one.

What do you think?

Priesthood is the power and authority of God given to man, including the authority to perform ordinances....

Try to raise someone from the dead without priesthood authority.
Try giving someone a healing blessing without priesthood authority.
Try causing something to be bound on earth and in heaven without priesthood authority.
Try bestowing the Holy Ghost onto a person without priesthood authority.
Try walking on water without priesthood authority.

What links all these things together. in other words, what is the missing factor that causes these things to work?

Does this answer your inquiry?

He who has ears to hear and eyes to see.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthoo ... ay_Saints)

Yes, we must have authority from God to use his power. my specific question was whether church preisthood authority was different from God's authority, or if they were one and the same. I'm starting to understand them as two different things and was wondering about other peoples thoughts

God gives Priesthood holders the ability to act in his name. People without this authority can only say words but without power. We mustn't confuse priesthood power with faith. A lot of people with faith have seen miracles in their lives. But Priesthood power is much, much greater at times. Could Moses have raised his staff and commanded the Red Sea to divide without this power?

[Zathura]

What are your thoughts on the difference between church authority and authority from God. I have been reading recently in Mosiah 18, and was thinking about how the priests of Noah were immoral and were not loyal to their duties in the church, and how the words of Abinidi struck the heart of Alma. This allowed the lord to lead out righteous people and create a church. The authority Alma had to baptize and such was given to him directly from God. In verse 12 Alma cries out to the lord to ask for permission to baptize, and it is granted of the spirit.

I am seeing a difference between authority of the church vs authority of God. To be ordained or have priesthood “conferred” doesn't actually confirm priesthood upon a person. I believe that it in most cases it is a formal pronouncement that the person has the rite to perform priesthood functions in the church, and that such preisthood is something they still need to seek. Similar with the Gift of the Holy Ghost being a directive to seek for the real thing. Just because someone was given authority from the heirarchy of the church to be able to do a specific task in the church, does not guarantee that God will honor what they do. True priesthood is associated with the level of relationship we have with God.

Based on these things, I would assume that anyone who has a relationship with Christ (they don't even have to be a part of the COJCOLDS) can receive permission and authority to baptize, perform miracles, and commune with God one on one.

What do you think?

Priesthood is the power and authority of God given to man, including the authority to perform ordinances....

Try to raise someone from the dead without priesthood authority.
Try giving someone a healing blessing without priesthood authority.
Try causing something to be bound on earth and in heaven without priesthood authority.
Try bestowing the Holy Ghost onto a person without priesthood authority.
Try walking on water without priesthood authority.

What links all these things together. in other words, what is the missing factor that causes these things to work?

Does this answer your inquiry?

He who has ears to hear and eyes to see.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthoo ... ay_Saints)

Yes, we must have authority from God to use his power. my specific question was whether church preisthood authority was different from God's authority, or if they were one and the same. I'm starting to understand them as two different things and was wondering about other peoples thoughts

God gives Priesthood holders the ability to act in his name. People without this authority can only say words but without power. We mustn't confuse priesthood power with faith. A lot of people with faith have seen miracles in their lives. But Priesthood power is much, much greater at times. Could Moses have raised his staff and commanded the Red Sea to divide without this power?

It is the light of Christ; it is the life that is in all things; it is the law by which all things are governed; it is truth shining forth in darkness; it is the power of God who sitteth upon his throne. It may be that it is also priesthood and faith and omnipotence, for these too are the power of God. (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pp. 257-258

He is talking about the Spirit of Christ/Spirit of the Lord/Holy Spirit, and he suggest that it MAY be the priesthood. In the middle he also suggests it may be Faith.

Aka, he is saying Maybe the Priesthood = Spirit = Faith

Basically, McConkie floated the idea that faith and priesthood may actually be the same exact thing.

[Zathura]

What are your thoughts on the difference between church authority and authority from God. I have been reading recently in Mosiah 18, and was thinking about how the priests of Noah were immoral and were not loyal to their duties in the church, and how the words of Abinidi struck the heart of Alma. This allowed the lord to lead out righteous people and create a church. The authority Alma had to baptize and such was given to him directly from God. In verse 12 Alma cries out to the lord to ask for permission to baptize, and it is granted of the spirit.

I am seeing a difference between authority of the church vs authority of God. To be ordained or have priesthood “conferred” doesn't actually confirm priesthood upon a person. I believe that it in most cases it is a formal pronouncement that the person has the rite to perform priesthood functions in the church, and that such preisthood is something they still need to seek. Similar with the Gift of the Holy Ghost being a directive to seek for the real thing. Just because someone was given authority from the heirarchy of the church to be able to do a specific task in the church, does not guarantee that God will honor what they do. True priesthood is associated with the level of relationship we have with God.

Based on these things, I would assume that anyone who has a relationship with Christ (they don't even have to be a part of the COJCOLDS) can receive permission and authority to baptize, perform miracles, and commune with God one on one.

What do you think?

Priesthood is the power and authority of God given to man, including the authority to perform ordinances....

Try to raise someone from the dead without priesthood authority.
Try giving someone a healing blessing without priesthood authority.
Try causing something to be bound on earth and in heaven without priesthood authority.
Try bestowing the Holy Ghost onto a person without priesthood authority.
Try walking on water without priesthood authority.

What links all these things together. in other words, what is the missing factor that causes these things to work?

Does this answer your inquiry?

He who has ears to hear and eyes to see.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthoo ... ay_Saints)

Yes, we must have authority from God to use his power. my specific question was whether church preisthood authority was different from God's authority, or if they were one and the same. I'm starting to understand them as two different things and was wondering about other peoples thoughts

God gives Priesthood holders the ability to act in his name. People without this authority can only say words but without power. We mustn't confuse priesthood power with faith. A lot of people with faith have seen miracles in their lives. But Priesthood power is much, much greater at times. Could Moses have raised his staff and commanded the Red Sea to divide without this power?

Here was another thread where we discussed this a bit:

"Priesthood" need not apply. In fact it's probably a cover for what one really lacks, and that is faith. And faith can be exercised by both male and female.

"Respecting females administering for the healing of the sick, there could be no evil in it, if God gave his sanction by healing; that there could be no more sin in any female laying hands on and praying for the sick, than in wetting the face with water; it is no sin for anybody to administer that has faith, or if the sick have faith to be healed by their administration." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 224)

I've always been struck by the healing of Zeerom via Alma:

Alma 15

3 And also Zeezrom lay sick at Sidom, with a burning fever, which was caused by the great tribulations of his mind on account of his wickedness, for he supposed that Alma and Amulek were no more; and he supposed that they had been slain because of his iniquity. And this great sin, and his many other sins, did harrow up his mind until it did become exceedingly sore, having no deliverance; therefore he began to be scorched with a burning heat.

4 Now, when he heard that Alma and Amulek were in the land of Sidom, his heart began to take courage; and he sent a message immediately unto them, desiring them to come unto him.

5 And it came to pass that they went immediately, obeying the message which he had sent unto them; and they went in unto the house unto Zeezrom; and they found him upon his bed, sick, being very low with a burning fever; and his mind also was exceedingly sore because of his iniquities; and when he saw them he stretched forth his hand, and besought them that they would heal him.

6 And it came to pass that Alma said unto him, taking him by the hand: Believest thou in the power of Christ unto salvation?

7 And he answered and said: Yea, I believe all the words that thou hast taught.

8 And Alma said: If thou believest in the redemption of Christ thou canst be healed.

9 And he said: Yea, I believe according to thy words.

10 And then Alma cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord our God, have mercy on this man, and heal him according to his faith which is in Christ.

11 And when Alma had said these words, Zeezrom leaped upon his feet, and began to walk; and this was done to the great astonishment of all the people; and the knowledge of this went forth throughout all the land of Sidom.

This is far different than the "proper way". And it more closely resembles Christ's methods. This is organic, spontaneous, not rehearsed or memorized. It is full of faith.

Super important topic.

I Posted some time ago on the topic of Priesthood Power and I think it goes hand in hand with your post.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48201&p=854405&hil ... on#p854405

There's quite a wall of text, so I understand if you don't want to read it lol. There were some pretty solid posts from others in that thread though.

The TLDR of the entire thread is essentially this post from Finrock:

Being filled with the Holy Spirit is the same as being filled with the Power of God and the Power of God is the same as His Priesthood.

The lack of miracles and success from Priesthood blessings isn't about priesthood. Like you said, it's about a lack of Faith. I believe you must receive the Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost to have any power to work miracles like HEALING. The reception of the Holy Ghost ultimately shows that you truly have unshakeable faith in Jesus Christ(2 Nephi 31:19). The reception of the Holy Ghost truly cleanses you every whit from your sins, allowing you to do miracles in the name of Jesus. Once you are cleansed every whit, I believe you can then grow in power through faith, resulting in the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit.

The thread I shared above also talks about the connection between the Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost and the Holy order of the Son of God.

There was also this bit:

I want to point out something I found in the writings of Bruce R. McConkie.

It is the light of Christ; it is the life that is in all things; it is the law by which all things are governed; it is truth shining forth in darkness; it is the power of God who sitteth upon his throne. It may be that it is also priesthood and faith and omnipotence, for these too are the power of God. (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pp. 257-258

He is talking about the Spirit of Christ/Spirit of the Lord/Holy Spirit, which is NOT the Holy Ghost, and he suggest that it MAY be the priesthood.

Aka, he is saying Maybe the Priesthood = Spirit.

This goes along with what I’m suggesting. That priesthood power is the same as the spirit, which comes in greater portions when you are born of God/sanctified/baptized by fire/become son or daughter of God/quickened etc.

Anyways, maybe that other thread can spark other conversations here.

I agree mostly with this, the only addendum I would make is that Priesthood = authority to act in God's name - which is usually given to those who have the Spirit, if one has the Spirit, but doesn't have authority to act, then the healing won't occur. So both men and women have priesthood when acting under the direction of God or the SPirit. I would also add that I'm not saying priesthoood is what the church defines it as i.e. that we have melchizedek preisthood, which I do not believe is true, I beleiveo ne must be annointed by Christ Himself to receive the melchizedek priesthood OR receive it form someone who has sealing power and I don't believe many people have that power activated at the moment including the current leadership of the Church (heretical I know).

I’m sure there’s something there to learn

[cab]

I believe we have a whole bunch of men going around saying "we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people" and that all should "hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto us"!

Unfortunately, the reality is that "almost all men" who confer priesthood upon other men already lost what little priesthood they once had, and therefore have no priesthood to confer upon others... Thus, we must go to God for authority, just like Lehi, Alma, Amos, Adam, Enoch, and all the others did...

[righteousrepublic]

Priesthood is the power and authority of God given to man, including the authority to perform ordinances....

Try to raise someone from the dead without priesthood authority.
Try giving someone a healing blessing without priesthood authority.
Try causing something to be bound on earth and in heaven without priesthood authority.
Try bestowing the Holy Ghost onto a person without priesthood authority.
Try walking on water without priesthood authority.

What links all these things together. in other words, what is the missing factor that causes these things to work?

Does this answer your inquiry?

He who has ears to hear and eyes to see.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthoo ... ay_Saints)

Yes, we must have authority from God to use his power. my specific question was whether church preisthood authority was different from God's authority, or if they were one and the same. I'm starting to understand them as two different things and was wondering about other peoples thoughts

God gives Priesthood holders the ability to act in his name. People without this authority can only say words but without power. We mustn't confuse priesthood power with faith. A lot of people with faith have seen miracles in their lives. But Priesthood power is much, much greater at times. Could Moses have raised his staff and commanded the Red Sea to divide without this power?

It is the light of Christ; it is the life that is in all things; it is the law by which all things are governed; it is truth shining forth in darkness; it is the power of God who sitteth upon his throne. It may be that it is also priesthood and faith and omnipotence, for these too are the power of God. (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pp. 257-258

He is talking about the Spirit of Christ/Spirit of the Lord/Holy Spirit, and he suggest that it MAY be the priesthood. In the middle he also suggests it may be Faith.

Aka, he is saying Maybe the Priesthood = Spirit = Faith

Basically, McConkie floated the idea that faith and priesthood may actually be the same exact thing.

The light of Christ is given to every person ever born. Not to be confused with the Holy Spirit.

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:6–13
6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;
7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.
8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;
9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;
10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. He is a personage of spirit, without a body of flesh and bones. He is often referred to as the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, or the Comforter.

The Light of Christ is the divine energy, power, or influence that proceeds from God through Christ and gives life and light to all things. The Light of Christ influences people for good and prepares them to receive the Holy Ghost. One manifestation of the Light of Christ is what we call a conscience.

[LDS Watchman]

The idea that a priesthood ordination in the church does not actually confer authority from God, but is merely an invitation to get the priesthood from heaven directly is a false Snufferite teaching.

Snuffer is a convenient scapegoat, but these ideas existed long before him, and will exist long after he's gone.

Read the story of Enoch, who lived simultaneously with other priesthood holders who would have ordained him in Moses 6. Notwithstanding his ordination at the hands of another man, it was not until God directly gave him the ability to do anything in the name of the Lord by his own voice.

26 And it came to pass that Enoch journeyed in the land, among the people; and as he journeyed, the aSpirit of God descended out of heaven, and abode upon him.

27 And he heard a avoice from heaven, saying: bEnoch, my son, cprophesy unto this people, and say unto them—Repent, for thus saith the Lord: I am dangry with this people, and my fierce anger is kindled against them; for their hearts have waxed ehard, and their fears are dull of hearing, and their eyes gcannot see afar off;

28 And for these many generations, ever since the day that I created them, have they gone astray, and have adenied me, and have sought their own counsels in the dark; and in their own abominations have they devised murder, and have not kept the commandments, which I gave unto their father, Adam.

29 Wherefore, they have foresworn themselves, and, by their oaths, they have brought upon themselves death; and a ahell I have prepared for them, if they repent not;

30 And this is a decree, which I have sent forth in the beginning of the world, from my own mouth, from the foundation thereof, and by the mouths of my servants, thy fathers, have I decreed it, even as it shall be sent forth in the world, unto the ends thereof.

31 And when Enoch had heard these words, he abowed himself to the earth, before the Lord, and spake before the Lord, saying: bWhy is it that I have found favor in thy sight, and am but a lad, and all the people chate me; for I am dslow of speech; wherefore am I thy servant?

32 And the Lord said unto Enoch: Go forth and do as I have commanded thee, and no man shall pierce thee. Open thy amouth, and it shall be filled, and I will give thee utterance, for all flesh is in my hands, and I will do as seemeth me good.

33 Say unto this people: aChoose ye bthis day, to serve the Lord God who made you.

34 Behold my aSpirit is upon you, wherefore all thy words will I justify; and the bmountains shall flee before you, and the crivers shall turn from their course; and thou shalt abide in me, and I in you; therefore dwalk with me.

Read the story of Adam, how did he receive the priesthood? By the Spirit of God, no man, no messenger was involved.

65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was aborn of the Spirit, and became quickened in the binner man.

66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with afire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the brecord of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;

67 And thou art after the aorder of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.

68 Behold, thou art aone in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my bsons. Amen.

in case you missed what happened:

"67 And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity."

You should know that this "order of him who was without beginner of days" etc. Refers to the Priesthood.

Melchizadek
JST GENESIS 14, this one is the most direct teaching on the topic:

27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,

28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;

29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.

Now, in case you doubt that Enoch properly received the priesthood in the section that I quoted because the Lord doesn't actually reference the priesthood, pay attention the power that he was given, and realize that those exact things are promised to those who receive this priesthood right here in JST Genesis 14 and that this promise was made directly to ENOCH.

30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;

31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.

NEPHI
Helaman 10

6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.

7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

By God's voice.

Jesus' Disciples
Matthew 16

Again, by the Lord's own voice, the Lord who happened to be in an earthly tabernacle at that time.

Jesus' Other Disciples in the Americas
3 Nephi 11+

Given the ability to confer the Holy Ghost directly from Jesus. They also receive the Holy Ghost , and yet it wasn't the result of a confirmation or laying on of hands at that moment.

How about this dispensation?
D&C 84:

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels acharge concerning you.

What need is there for God to "confirm" the priesthood upon them if they were already ordained? Because they didn't have it until God confirmed it upon them, regardless of ordination.


You need only look at the manifestations of God's power, of the gifts of the Holy Ghost, and the miracles wrought by the men who obtained the priesthood in this manner, and compare them to the literal millions of Mormon men who have obtained their "priesthood" through men. The fruit isn't there, but it can be, if we but do what the Lord's servants did in the scriptures.

Yes, you are right that this idea did not originate with Denver Snuffer. Most of what he teaches was ripped off from someone else, and then given his own spin. But it's Denver and his followers today that push this narrative presented on this thread.

Anyway, lets look at what you broke down.

First of all, not one scripture you quoted mentioned the authority to baptize, which is an ordinance of the aaronic or lower priesthood.

As far as I can tell from the scriptures, the aaronic priesthood is always given by the laying on of hands and not from the heavens.

If the laying on of hands does not actually confer authority from God to baptize then there would be countless invalid baptisms in the church and there would be no way to know whose baptism is valid and whose isn't.

There would also be countless people taking the sacrament as adminstered by those with absolutely no authority from God.

This is confusion, and not how God works. God's house is a house of order.

Most of the other verses you quoted have to do with the FULNESS of the priesthood.

Yes this power can only come directly from God. Man can not confer the power to move mountains or seal up the heavens.

This does not however mean that a priesthood ordination by the laying on of hands does not confer actual authority from God, but is only an invitation.

That idea is false doctrine and one of the pillars of Snufferism.

[nightlight]

What are your thoughts on the difference between church authority and authority from God. I have been reading recently in Mosiah 18, and was thinking about how the priests of Noah were immoral and were not loyal to their duties in the church, and how the words of Abinidi struck the heart of Alma. This allowed the lord to lead out righteous people and create a church. The authority Alma had to baptize and such was given to him directly from God. In verse 12 Alma cries out to the lord to ask for permission to baptize, and it is granted of the spirit.

I am seeing a difference between authority of the church vs authority of God. To be ordained or have priesthood “conferred” doesn't actually confirm priesthood upon a person. I believe that it in most cases it is a formal pronouncement that the person has the rite to perform priesthood functions in the church, and that such preisthood is something they still need to seek. Similar with the Gift of the Holy Ghost being a directive to seek for the real thing. Just because someone was given authority from the heirarchy of the church to be able to do a specific task in the church, does not guarantee that God will honor what they do. True priesthood is associated with the level of relationship we have with God.

Based on these things, I would assume that anyone who has a relationship with Christ (they don't even have to be a part of the COJCOLDS) can receive permission and authority to baptize, perform miracles, and commune with God one on one.

What do you think?

Priesthood is the power and authority of God given to man, including the authority to perform ordinances....

Try to raise someone from the dead without priesthood authority.
Try giving someone a healing blessing without priesthood authority.
Try causing something to be bound on earth and in heaven without priesthood authority.
Try bestowing the Holy Ghost onto a person without priesthood authority.
Try walking on water without priesthood authority.

What links all these things together. in other words, what is the missing factor that causes these things to work?

Does this answer your inquiry?

He who has ears to hear and eyes to see.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthoo ... ay_Saints)

Have you raised someone from the dead with your authority?

[Vision]

Try to raise someone from the dead without priesthood authority.
Try giving someone a healing blessing without priesthood authority.

How do you account for the example's of these very acts by people that don't have the "priesthood authority" as taught by Mormonism?

[tdj]

What are your thoughts on the difference between church authority and authority from God. I have been reading recently in Mosiah 18, and was thinking about how the priests of Noah were immoral and were not loyal to their duties in the church, and how the words of Abinidi struck the heart of Alma. This allowed the lord to lead out righteous people and create a church. The authority Alma had to baptize and such was given to him directly from God. In verse 12 Alma cries out to the lord to ask for permission to baptize, and it is granted of the spirit.

I am seeing a difference between authority of the church vs authority of God. To be ordained or have priesthood “conferred” doesn't actually confirm priesthood upon a person. I believe that it in most cases it is a formal pronouncement that the person has the rite to perform priesthood functions in the church, and that such preisthood is something they still need to seek. Similar with the Gift of the Holy Ghost being a directive to seek for the real thing. Just because someone was given authority from the heirarchy of the church to be able to do a specific task in the church, does not guarantee that God will honor what they do. True priesthood is associated with the level of relationship we have with God.

Based on these things, I would assume that anyone who has a relationship with Christ (they don't even have to be a part of the COJCOLDS) can receive permission and authority to baptize, perform miracles, and commune with God one on one.

What do you think?

Priesthood is the power and authority of God given to man, including the authority to perform ordinances....

Try to raise someone from the dead without priesthood authority.
Try giving someone a healing blessing without priesthood authority.
Try causing something to be bound on earth and in heaven without priesthood authority.
Try bestowing the Holy Ghost onto a person without priesthood authority.
Try walking on water without priesthood authority.

What links all these things together. in other words, what is the missing factor that causes these things to work?

Does this answer your inquiry?

He who has ears to hear and eyes to see.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthoo ... ay_Saints)

Before becoming a member, I had been in all sorts of different denominations and I've seen people pray over people and these things happen. Some groups more then others, but I've still seen it. Amongst women also. One in particular involved a very spiritual woman who was a charismatic pentecostal. I had problems with my back and the pain would radiate into my arm, causing sharp stabbing pains. She prayed for me, and I was healed THAT day.

[ChooseTruth]

You really need to break this down into theee separate categories; priesthood authority that goes with offices, priesthood keys that goes with callings, and priesthood power which is available to everyone based up n faith and righteousness.

[Zathura]

As far as I can tell from the scriptures, the aaronic priesthood is always given by the laying on of hands and not from the heavens.

If the laying on of hands does not actually confer authority from God to baptize then there would be countless invalid baptisms in the church and there would be no way to know whose baptism is valid and whose isn't.

There would also be countless people taking the sacrament as adminstered by those with absolutely no authority from God.

This is confusion, and not how God works. God's house is a house of order.

Most of the other verses you quoted have to do with the FULNESS of the priesthood.

Yes this power can only come directly from God. Man can not confer the power to move mountains or seal up the heavens.

This does not however mean that a priesthood ordination by the laying on of hands does not confer actual authority from God, but is only an invitation.

That idea is false doctrine and one of the pillars of Snufferism.

I think this is irrelevant. The belief that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, the Savior of the world is also a pillar of "Snufferism", and that doesn't make it false. All that matters is what we find within the scriptures. Again, Snuffer is a convenient scapegoat. I don't think people who spend time on forums and blogs realize just how few people even know who Denver Snuffer is. There is literally one person I have EVER met in real life who knows who he is AND what he teaches, and that's because he was a Bishop in a ward that had a member who left to follow Snuffer. Among those who know who he is, far fewer even know what he teaches

First of all, not one scripture you quoted mentioned the authority to baptize, which is an ordinance of the aaronic or lower priesthood.

Actually, all of them give the authority to baptize. It has always been a standard Mormon doctrine that , even though we talk about two priesthoods(Or three, depending on how deep you want to go), the lesser priesthood is but an appendage to the greater priesthood. If you receive the greater priesthood, you thereby have the lesser. In other words, each of those examples where they received a fullness of the priesthood will have included any other priesthood.

As far as I can tell from the scriptures, the aaronic priesthood is always given by the laying on of hands and not from the heavens.

Actually, you won't find most scripture talking about the giving of the priesthood by the laying on of hands. We have our modern instructions in D&C, that's it. Although the laying on of hands occurs in the New Testament, it does not talk about Priesthood, we just make assumptions. In the event that they did receive the priesthood by the laying on of hands(a safe bet), they received it directly from God himself(Jesus Christ). Where did John get his authority? All we know is that he was ordained at 8 years old to overthrow the kingdom.

Because of our beliefs, we make assumptions about where Nephi and his descendants must have received their authority, but that's all it is. An assumption.

If the laying on of hands does not actually confer authority from God to baptize then there would be countless invalid baptisms in the church and there would be no way to know whose baptism is valid and whose isn't.

There is ONE example of receiving the power to confer the Gift of the Holy Ghost in the Book of Mormon . Again, they received this directly from God himself, Jesus Christ. It is no coincidence that only those disciples conferred the gift. There is no example in the New Testament, or in the Book of Mormon, where someone received this power without receiving it directly from Jesus Christ.

More importantly, the thing that there IS numerous examples of, is people who receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost without the laying on of hands, or even without baptism. This is a very inconvenient fact for people who refuse to admit that these things can be done without a man involved.

Here is Joseph Fielding Smith doing a Q&A on the topic.
Read the whole thing if you want, the main point he makes is this:
We may correctly believe that the Lord may bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by other means than by the laying on of hands if occasion requires it.

An objective seeker of truth has no choice but to make the same admission that President Smith made here.

There would also be countless people taking the sacrament as adminstered by those with absolutely no authority from God.

There are countless people taking sacrament that was blessed by a young man who is addicted to pornography, or has a drug addiction, or has never even attempted to have a relationship with God. Those who partake will still benefit from the Sacrament for the same reason someone would benefit if they partook from someone who has no authority.

Not to attack or belittle you or your beliefs, but those who are huge Brigham Young fans tend to have a very tight hold on the idea that God gave his power unto man, and that the things we DO save us. Our authority and our participation in ordinances save us. We did the ordinances and we are good to go. This idea got out of control. Men ran around sealing people up unto eternal life before they tamped down on it and the Second Anointing and the power to seal someone up to eternal life became a secret hidden ordinance. Obviously they had no such power, but they used the same logic you're using here to run around giving those blessings.

Having had this discussion time and time again, I'm already well aware of the objections I'll run into.

There is this huge concern about priesthood authority and baptism, but the part that actually saves you is the part that only God can do, the gift of the Holy Ghost. Regardless of your authority, and your baptisms, and your ordinances, a man or women will not be saved unless they offer up the one thing God asked for. A broken heart and contrite spirit. You can be baptized and confirmed a million times with your authority. Until you give the Lord what he asks for and receive the Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost, it all amounts to NOTHING.

Anyways, I really don't want to argue, so please don't take my tone as being argumentative as it has been before in other threads.

[Zathura]

The idea that a priesthood ordination in the church does not actually confer authority from God, but is merely an invitation to get the priesthood from heaven directly is a false Snufferite teaching.

Snuffer is a convenient scapegoat, but these ideas existed long before him, and will exist long after he's gone.

Read the story of Enoch, who lived simultaneously with other priesthood holders who would have ordained him in Moses 6. Notwithstanding his ordination at the hands of another man, it was not until God directly gave him the ability to do anything in the name of the Lord by his own voice.

26 And it came to pass that Enoch journeyed in the land, among the people; and as he journeyed, the aSpirit of God descended out of heaven, and abode upon him.

27 And he heard a avoice from heaven, saying: bEnoch, my son, cprophesy unto this people, and say unto them—Repent, for thus saith the Lord: I am dangry with this people, and my fierce anger is kindled against them; for their hearts have waxed ehard, and their fears are dull of hearing, and their eyes gcannot see afar off;

28 And for these many generations, ever since the day that I created them, have they gone astray, and have adenied me, and have sought their own counsels in the dark; and in their own abominations have they devised murder, and have not kept the commandments, which I gave unto their father, Adam.

29 Wherefore, they have foresworn themselves, and, by their oaths, they have brought upon themselves death; and a ahell I have prepared for them, if they repent not;

30 And this is a decree, which I have sent forth in the beginning of the world, from my own mouth, from the foundation thereof, and by the mouths of my servants, thy fathers, have I decreed it, even as it shall be sent forth in the world, unto the ends thereof.

31 And when Enoch had heard these words, he abowed himself to the earth, before the Lord, and spake before the Lord, saying: bWhy is it that I have found favor in thy sight, and am but a lad, and all the people chate me; for I am dslow of speech; wherefore am I thy servant?

32 And the Lord said unto Enoch: Go forth and do as I have commanded thee, and no man shall pierce thee. Open thy amouth, and it shall be filled, and I will give thee utterance, for all flesh is in my hands, and I will do as seemeth me good.

33 Say unto this people: aChoose ye bthis day, to serve the Lord God who made you.

34 Behold my aSpirit is upon you, wherefore all thy words will I justify; and the bmountains shall flee before you, and the crivers shall turn from their course; and thou shalt abide in me, and I in you; therefore dwalk with me.

Read the story of Adam, how did he receive the priesthood? By the Spirit of God, no man, no messenger was involved.

65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was aborn of the Spirit, and became quickened in the binner man.

66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with afire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the brecord of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;

67 And thou art after the aorder of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.

68 Behold, thou art aone in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my bsons. Amen.

in case you missed what happened:

"67 And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity."

You should know that this "order of him who was without beginner of days" etc. Refers to the Priesthood.

Melchizadek
JST GENESIS 14, this one is the most direct teaching on the topic:

27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,

28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;

29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.

Now, in case you doubt that Enoch properly received the priesthood in the section that I quoted because the Lord doesn't actually reference the priesthood, pay attention the power that he was given, and realize that those exact things are promised to those who receive this priesthood right here in JST Genesis 14 and that this promise was made directly to ENOCH.

30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;

31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.

NEPHI
Helaman 10

6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.

7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.

By God's voice.

Jesus' Disciples
Matthew 16

Again, by the Lord's own voice, the Lord who happened to be in an earthly tabernacle at that time.

Jesus' Other Disciples in the Americas
3 Nephi 11+

Given the ability to confer the Holy Ghost directly from Jesus. They also receive the Holy Ghost , and yet it wasn't the result of a confirmation or laying on of hands at that moment.

How about this dispensation?
D&C 84:

42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels acharge concerning you.

What need is there for God to "confirm" the priesthood upon them if they were already ordained? Because they didn't have it until God confirmed it upon them, regardless of ordination.


You need only look at the manifestations of God's power, of the gifts of the Holy Ghost, and the miracles wrought by the men who obtained the priesthood in this manner, and compare them to the literal millions of Mormon men who have obtained their "priesthood" through men. The fruit isn't there, but it can be, if we but do what the Lord's servants did in the scriptures.

Yes, you are right that this idea did not originate with Denver Snuffer. Most of what he teaches was ripped off from someone else, and then given his own spin. But it's Denver and his followers today that push this narrative presented on this thread.

Anyway, lets look at what you broke down.

First of all, not one scripture you quoted mentioned the authority to baptize, which is an ordinance of the aaronic or lower priesthood.

As far as I can tell from the scriptures, the aaronic priesthood is always given by the laying on of hands and not from the heavens.

If the laying on of hands does not actually confer authority from God to baptize then there would be countless invalid baptisms in the church and there would be no way to know whose baptism is valid and whose isn't.

There would also be countless people taking the sacrament as adminstered by those with absolutely no authority from God.

This is confusion, and not how God works. God's house is a house of order.

Most of the other verses you quoted have to do with the FULNESS of the priesthood.

Yes this power can only come directly from God. Man can not confer the power to move mountains or seal up the heavens.

This does not however mean that a priesthood ordination by the laying on of hands does not confer actual authority from God, but is only an invitation.

That idea is false doctrine and one of the pillars of Snufferism.

Because I've had this conversation so many times and I already know where it'll go, I'm just going to post a few of the conversations that have been had on it. I don't expect anyone to actually go through these, but it's there if you want it. It might not appear to you that these conversations are the same topic that we are discussing here, but it truly is.

Doctrine of Christ taught incorrectly in General Conference

Thread for people to prove their mainstream Mormon "rebirth is a process" doctrine with scripture *hint*, nobody did so, because it doesn't exist

Thread about Joseph Smith arguing, and convincing Oliver and the Whitmers that a remission of sins can come before baptism

Example of people receiving remission of sins outside of Church

this example is probably the most irritating example for people who really don't want to believe that God can, and will give power and save man without any middle man and his "authority" involved. -

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Peter acknowledged that they, these gentiles, received "The Holy Ghost as well as we", and yet they were gentiles,and they had not been baptized, and they had not received the laying on of hands.

There are literally dozens of other conversations I've had over the years with posters who left years ago that would take me too long to find because there are anywhere from 350 - 800 results when I search my posts by keywords like "Priesthood, baptism of fire, rebirth, voice of God". This isn't me bragging, it's just me saying I've had this conversation so many times that I guess I just need more time before I engage on the topic again. The least I can do here is invite you to read those conversations and see if you learn anything, and then return and teach me something I may be missing. I don't think you possess the whole truth, I think you are wrong on many points. I also think I don't possess the whole truth, and am likely wrong on many points. THe actual truth will be somewhere in the middle.

[Serragon]

If we are implementing the Church correctly, these two questions should be synonymous.

Electrical circuits are an excellent analogy to use to understand the issues at hand. We build circuits to send power in the form of electricity all over the world. In order for this to happen in a reliable, stable, and efficient manner we must have good wires, connections, relays, splices, etc. The better the framework, the better control of this power.

The problem is that our priesthood has been diluted. We often no longer confer priesthood because of faith. We now confer priesthood because of age or because it is the next step on the covenant path. Our MP and AP quorums are littered with men who do not have faith sufficient to wield this power. And it has been going on this way for a long time. We continue to build the circuits, but much of the wires and connections are faulty and cannot actually carry or transfer that power.

The result is a large infrastructure that has no real ability to do what it was designed to do. We could fix it by drastically reducing the size of the network and replacing all of the malfunctioning circuits with good ones and then being very careful to test and try any new components prior to including them in the network. But a drastic step like this would require admitting truths that would try the faith of many, so we continue to add to the network and pretend that it is fully functioning and power is flowing in a reliable and regular way.

We then claim that it is only through this authorized network that power can flow. This is true in that we had an obligation to design and build the network in a way that the power would and could flow. But the power will not be restrained, and if we do not provide the avenue for it as we committed to do, it will find other means of manifesting itself. I would rather have a faithful Christian of another faith pray for healing than an annointing from a faithless MP holder. God will strike with lightning wherever He sees fit and will not be limited by our failures to act in a faithful manner.


Since most of us don't know any better, we believe the small trickle we sometimes receive is all that is required or promised. Yet the scriptures and the early restored church testify of something different. I have a testimony of the priesthood and its ordained and annointed place in the restoration. But it also seems clear to me that we have not been faithful as a church in safeguarding this precious partnership with God.

[LDS Watchman]

If we are implementing the Church correctly, these two questions should be synonymous.

Electrical circuits are an excellent analogy to use to understand the issues at hand. We build circuits to send power in the form of electricity all over the world. In order for this to happen in a reliable, stable, and efficient manner we must have good wires, connections, relays, splices, etc. The better the framework, the better control of this power.

The problem is that our priesthood has been diluted. We often no longer confer priesthood because of faith. We now confer priesthood because of age or because it is the next step on the covenant path. Our MP and AP quorums are littered with men who do not have faith sufficient to wield this power. And it has been going on this way for a long time. We continue to build the circuits, but much of the wires and connections are faulty and cannot actually carry or transfer that power.

The result is a large infrastructure that has no real ability to do what it was designed to do. We could fix it by drastically reducing the size of the network and replacing all of the malfunctioning circuits with good ones and then being very careful to test and try any new components prior to including them in the network. But a drastic step like this would require admitting truths that would try the faith of many, so we continue to add to the network and pretend that it is fully functioning and power is flowing in a reliable and regular way.

We then claim that it is only through this authorized network that power can flow. This is true in that we had an obligation to design and build the network in a way that the power would and could flow. But the power will not be restrained, and if we do not provide the avenue for it as we committed to do, it will find other means of manifesting itself. I would rather have a faithful Christian of another faith pray for healing than an annointing from a faithless MP holder. God will strike with lightning wherever He sees fit and will not be limited by our failures to act in a faithful manner.


Since most of us don't know any better, we believe the small trickle we sometimes receive is all that is required or promised. Yet the scriptures and the early restored church testify of something different. I have a testimony of the priesthood and its ordained and annointed place in the restoration. But it also seems clear to me that we have not been faithful as a church in safeguarding this precious partnership with God.

Very well said. I completely agree.

[righteousrepublic]

Have you raised someone from the dead with your authority?

No, but my late grandfather did. Nuff said on this.

[righteousrepublic]

Try to raise someone from the dead without priesthood authority.
Try giving someone a healing blessing without priesthood authority.

How do you account for the example's of these very acts by people that don't have the "priesthood authority" as taught by Mormonism?

I could be incorrect, but I think it falls under priestcraft. So what is your point exactly?

[LukeAir2008]

As someone who was born outside of the Church but was a believer in Christ, I didn’t have authority to baptise or do anything else for that matter - and neither did anyone else that I knew.
We believed in Christ and that was it. We had the first principle - nothing else.

Christians don’t even believe that baptism or ordinances are essential anyway which is obviously why they don’t believe specific authority or priesthood is required either.

Simon the Sorcerer wanted to buy the power and authority that the Apostles had. I don’t remember them saying - hey dude it’s ok, just believe and you’ll magically have authority come upon you man...