Why people believe joseph was monogamist

[Robin Hood]

Joseph III, Alexander, and David (Joseph Smith's 3 surviving sons) all speak well of Lewis Bidamon, and by all accounts he provided Emma with a level of stability she had never known since she left her parents home to marry Joseph.
Bidamon certainly had his faults, but was basically a good man who took on the sons of the prophet and raised them as his own.

Emma could certainly have done a lot worse.

[LDS Watchman]

Fact of the matter is, believers of either argument are kidding themselves if they think either argument is not on shaky ground.

Yes there are certainly ample reasons to question either narrative. It's certainly not cut and dry.

Having weighed the evidence extensively, I have concluded that the traditional narrative of the church in regards to plural marriage is true and that it began with Joseph.

I’ve concluded that I don’t know, and whatever the full truth is, at the very least I do not believe the mainstream narrative because of the amount of accepted information that can be reliably dismissed or proven false.

I thought you were certain that Joseph didn't start polygamy. Wasn't that kind of the point when you started that thread a while back entitled "Your weekly reminder that polygamy is not of God."

I can respect not knowing. Of course I don't know for sure either. Having carefully weighed all the available evidence (to my knowledge) I'm absolutely convinced that plural marriage began with Joseph.

I understand people disagree with me. That's fine.

[Zathura]

Fact of the matter is, believers of either argument are kidding themselves if they think either argument is not on shaky ground.

Yes there are certainly ample reasons to question either narrative. It's certainly not cut and dry.

Having weighed the evidence extensively, I have concluded that the traditional narrative of the church in regards to plural marriage is true and that it began with Joseph.

I’ve concluded that I don’t know, and whatever the full truth is, at the very least I do not believe the mainstream narrative because of the amount of accepted information that can be reliably dismissed or proven false.

I thought you were certain that Joseph didn't start polygamy. Wasn't that kind of the point when you started that thread a while back entitled "Your weekly reminder that polygamy is not of God."

I can respect not knowing. Of course I don't know for sure either. Having carefully weighed all the available evidence (to my knowledge) I'm absolutely convinced that plural marriage began with Joseph.

I understand people disagree with me. That's fine.

I've never taken the stance that I'm sure that Joseph didn't start it. I've only ever said that, IF I WAS FORCED to give my opinion, I'd take Joseph at his word, that he did not practice or preach.

The stance I have taken is that polygamy is wrong whether or not Joseph practiced it, that he too would have been wrong if he preached and practiced it. That polygamy has never been commanded or approved.

[LDS Watchman]

Yes there are certainly ample reasons to question either narrative. It's certainly not cut and dry.

Having weighed the evidence extensively, I have concluded that the traditional narrative of the church in regards to plural marriage is true and that it began with Joseph.

I’ve concluded that I don’t know, and whatever the full truth is, at the very least I do not believe the mainstream narrative because of the amount of accepted information that can be reliably dismissed or proven false.

I thought you were certain that Joseph didn't start polygamy. Wasn't that kind of the point when you started that thread a while back entitled "Your weekly reminder that polygamy is not of God."

I can respect not knowing. Of course I don't know for sure either. Having carefully weighed all the available evidence (to my knowledge) I'm absolutely convinced that plural marriage began with Joseph.

I understand people disagree with me. That's fine.

I've never taken the stance that I'm sure that Joseph didn't start it. I've only ever said that, IF I WAS FORCED to give my opinion, I'd take Joseph at his word, that he did not practice or preach.

The stance I have taken is that polygamy is wrong whether or not Joseph practiced it, that he too would have been wrong if he preached and practiced it. That polygamy has never been commanded or approved.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm assuming then that you believe that God did not approve of the plural marriages of Abraham and Jacob and that they were not justified in having more than one wife?

I think you have already said this, but I just wanted to confirm so I understand exactly what your position is.

[Zathura]

I’ve concluded that I don’t know, and whatever the full truth is, at the very least I do not believe the mainstream narrative because of the amount of accepted information that can be reliably dismissed or proven false.

I thought you were certain that Joseph didn't start polygamy. Wasn't that kind of the point when you started that thread a while back entitled "Your weekly reminder that polygamy is not of God."

I can respect not knowing. Of course I don't know for sure either. Having carefully weighed all the available evidence (to my knowledge) I'm absolutely convinced that plural marriage began with Joseph.

I understand people disagree with me. That's fine.

I've never taken the stance that I'm sure that Joseph didn't start it. I've only ever said that, IF I WAS FORCED to give my opinion, I'd take Joseph at his word, that he did not practice or preach.

The stance I have taken is that polygamy is wrong whether or not Joseph practiced it, that he too would have been wrong if he preached and practiced it. That polygamy has never been commanded or approved.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm assuming then that you believe that God did not approve of the plural marriages of Abraham and Jacob and that they were not justified in having more than one wife?

I think you have already said this, but I just wanted to confirm so I understand exactly what your position is.

Abraham: He had a child with his wife's handmaid at his wife's direction. God did not tell him to do this. Hagar did not become his wife. When Abraham eventually had a child with his only wife, the covenant promise from God was delivered through his son with his only wife. He did not take on another wife until Sarah died. Was he justified with the handmaiden? I don't know. Polygamy was acceptable to the culture. Maybe it's comparable to a couple today who fornicates before they come to know the Gospel.

Jacob: You know the story. He was beguiled, and worked again to marry the wife he originally wanted. Obviously since he was tricked, he wanted the woman he wanted all along. Once he got her, he didn't want to just discard the other. He did have children with them at the same time, and with his concubines(who were NOT wives, were not treated as such, and were literally used to have babies) . Nowhere is it shown that he was commanded to have children with all of them, nowhere is it shown that this was approved. If you follow his life, from the moment he receives his covenant(when he received his name change), he too, like Abraham, never again had more than one wife(Rachel died, and his original wife remained) and had no children with concubines. Is there a reason behind this? Maybe. Jacob may or may not have known that such a thing displeases the Lord. We know that David knew this, because the Lord commanded the future Kings of Israel not to multiply wives. Was there a similar command earlier than that that Jacob, or Abraham would have been aware of? Maybe. I don't know.

Now, the Lord, through Jacob(the Book of Mormon Jacob) originally addresses his people by saying his people seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms because of the things that they read about David and Solomon. He then defines this whoredom, which was , "they had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me".

So, we know that they read about David and Solomon, they read that they had many wives and concubines, and sought to excuse themselves in doing the same thing. Given that our church makes all kinds of assumptions of things that are not actually written in scripture(like i mentioned in the other thread, things like priesthood by the laying on of hands, temple ordinances, things that literally aren't in the Book of Mormon but Mormons just make the assumption that they must have HAD to exist), In the name of fairness and honest discourse, I should be safe, nor should I be forbidden to make the assumption that they also read what Abraham and Jacob did with their wives and concubines. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that when the Lord God refers to "They of old", and that he will not suffer that his people do what "They of old" did, it would have included Abraham, and Jacob, and anybody else who may have had many wives and concubines that the Nephites sought to emulate.

[cab]

I’ve concluded that I don’t know, and whatever the full truth is, at the very least I do not believe the mainstream narrative because of the amount of accepted information that can be reliably dismissed or proven false.

I thought you were certain that Joseph didn't start polygamy. Wasn't that kind of the point when you started that thread a while back entitled "Your weekly reminder that polygamy is not of God."

I can respect not knowing. Of course I don't know for sure either. Having carefully weighed all the available evidence (to my knowledge) I'm absolutely convinced that plural marriage began with Joseph.

I understand people disagree with me. That's fine.

I've never taken the stance that I'm sure that Joseph didn't start it. I've only ever said that, IF I WAS FORCED to give my opinion, I'd take Joseph at his word, that he did not practice or preach.

The stance I have taken is that polygamy is wrong whether or not Joseph practiced it, that he too would have been wrong if he preached and practiced it. That polygamy has never been commanded or approved.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm assuming then that you believe that God did not approve of the plural marriages of Abraham and Jacob and that they were not justified in having more than one wife?

I think you have already said this, but I just wanted to confirm so I understand exactly what your position is.

Whether or not they were justified is different than being commanded to do it. There is a whole huge wide graping chasm between what God will tolerate and what he has commanded....

[MMbelieve]

I thought you were certain that Joseph didn't start polygamy. Wasn't that kind of the point when you started that thread a while back entitled "Your weekly reminder that polygamy is not of God."

I can respect not knowing. Of course I don't know for sure either. Having carefully weighed all the available evidence (to my knowledge) I'm absolutely convinced that plural marriage began with Joseph.

I understand people disagree with me. That's fine.

I've never taken the stance that I'm sure that Joseph didn't start it. I've only ever said that, IF I WAS FORCED to give my opinion, I'd take Joseph at his word, that he did not practice or preach.

The stance I have taken is that polygamy is wrong whether or not Joseph practiced it, that he too would have been wrong if he preached and practiced it. That polygamy has never been commanded or approved.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm assuming then that you believe that God did not approve of the plural marriages of Abraham and Jacob and that they were not justified in having more than one wife?

I think you have already said this, but I just wanted to confirm so I understand exactly what your position is.

Whether or not they were justified is different than being commanded to do it. There is a whole huge wide graping chasm between what God will tolerate and what he has commanded....

Being justified points toward it being something that was not ideal or considered good else it wouldn’t need to be justified.
So yeah, huge gap between commanded and justified....like not even on the same page.

James 2
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Maybe Abraham was simply forgiven “justified” or God made it right because Abraham was such a good guy at heart.

[LDS Watchman]

I thought you were certain that Joseph didn't start polygamy. Wasn't that kind of the point when you started that thread a while back entitled "Your weekly reminder that polygamy is not of God."

I can respect not knowing. Of course I don't know for sure either. Having carefully weighed all the available evidence (to my knowledge) I'm absolutely convinced that plural marriage began with Joseph.

I understand people disagree with me. That's fine.

I've never taken the stance that I'm sure that Joseph didn't start it. I've only ever said that, IF I WAS FORCED to give my opinion, I'd take Joseph at his word, that he did not practice or preach.

The stance I have taken is that polygamy is wrong whether or not Joseph practiced it, that he too would have been wrong if he preached and practiced it. That polygamy has never been commanded or approved.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm assuming then that you believe that God did not approve of the plural marriages of Abraham and Jacob and that they were not justified in having more than one wife?

I think you have already said this, but I just wanted to confirm so I understand exactly what your position is.

Whether or not they were justified is different than being commanded to do it. There is a whole huge wide graping chasm between what God will tolerate and what he has commanded....

I would say that there is a big difference in what God tolerates and in what a man is justified in before God.

I don't believe that a man is every justified in breaking God's commandments.

Do you?

[MMbelieve]

I've never taken the stance that I'm sure that Joseph didn't start it. I've only ever said that, IF I WAS FORCED to give my opinion, I'd take Joseph at his word, that he did not practice or preach.

The stance I have taken is that polygamy is wrong whether or not Joseph practiced it, that he too would have been wrong if he preached and practiced it. That polygamy has never been commanded or approved.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm assuming then that you believe that God did not approve of the plural marriages of Abraham and Jacob and that they were not justified in having more than one wife?

I think you have already said this, but I just wanted to confirm so I understand exactly what your position is.

Whether or not they were justified is different than being commanded to do it. There is a whole huge wide graping chasm between what God will tolerate and what he has commanded....

I would say that there is a big difference in what God tolerates and in what a man is justified in before God.

I don't believe that a man is every justified in breaking God's commandments.

Do you?

I believe a person can be called justified by God despite having broke Gods commands. Eventually we all will be justified if we’re lucky enough to be considered a friend of Him.

[LDS Watchman]

I thought you were certain that Joseph didn't start polygamy. Wasn't that kind of the point when you started that thread a while back entitled "Your weekly reminder that polygamy is not of God."

I can respect not knowing. Of course I don't know for sure either. Having carefully weighed all the available evidence (to my knowledge) I'm absolutely convinced that plural marriage began with Joseph.

I understand people disagree with me. That's fine.

I've never taken the stance that I'm sure that Joseph didn't start it. I've only ever said that, IF I WAS FORCED to give my opinion, I'd take Joseph at his word, that he did not practice or preach.

The stance I have taken is that polygamy is wrong whether or not Joseph practiced it, that he too would have been wrong if he preached and practiced it. That polygamy has never been commanded or approved.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm assuming then that you believe that God did not approve of the plural marriages of Abraham and Jacob and that they were not justified in having more than one wife?

I think you have already said this, but I just wanted to confirm so I understand exactly what your position is.

Abraham: He had a child with his wife's handmaid at his wife's direction. God did not tell him to do this. Hagar did not become his wife. When Abraham eventually had a child with his only wife, the covenant promise from God was delivered through his son with his only wife. He did not take on another wife until Sarah died. Was he justified with the handmaiden? I don't know. Polygamy was acceptable to the culture. Maybe it's comparable to a couple today who fornicates before they come to know the Gospel.

Jacob: You know the story. He was beguiled, and worked again to marry the wife he originally wanted. Obviously since he was tricked, he wanted the woman he wanted all along. Once he got her, he didn't want to just discard the other. He did have children with them at the same time, and with his concubines(who were NOT wives, were not treated as such, and were literally used to have babies) . Nowhere is it shown that he was commanded to have children with all of them, nowhere is it shown that this was approved. If you follow his life, from the moment he receives his covenant(when he received his name change), he too, like Abraham, never again had more than one wife(Rachel died, and his original wife remained) and had no children with concubines. Is there a reason behind this? Maybe. Jacob may or may not have known that such a thing displeases the Lord. We know that David knew this, because the Lord commanded the future Kings of Israel not to multiply wives. Was there a similar command earlier than that that Jacob, or Abraham would have been aware of? Maybe. I don't know.

Now, the Lord, through Jacob(the Book of Mormon Jacob) originally addresses his people by saying his people seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms because of the things that they read about David and Solomon. He then defines this whoredom, which was , "they had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me".

So, we know that they read about David and Solomon, they read that they had many wives and concubines, and sought to excuse themselves in doing the same thing. Given that our church makes all kinds of assumptions of things that are not actually written in scripture(like i mentioned in the other thread, things like priesthood by the laying on of hands, temple ordinances, things that literally aren't in the Book of Mormon but Mormons just make the assumption that they must have HAD to exist), In the name of fairness and honest discourse, I should be safe, nor should I be forbidden to make the assumption that they also read what Abraham and Jacob did with their wives and concubines. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that when the Lord God refers to "They of old", and that he will not suffer that his people do what "They of old" did, it would have included Abraham, and Jacob, and anybody else who may have had many wives and concubines that the Nephites sought to emulate.

Your response is a little confusing.

So are you saying that Abraham and Jacob were NOT justified in having more than one wife?

Hagar was Abraham's wife, not just a servant used one time for sex so Sarah could have a surrogate mother for her baby.

Both Hagar and Keturah are identified as both WIVES and concubines of Abraham.

A concubine is a legal wife, but of a lower status. Sort of like how the birth-right son has a higher status than other sons in a family. This doesn't mean that the other sons aren't legitimate sons.

Genesis 16

3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his WIFE.

Genesis 25

1 Then again Abraham took a WIFE, and her name was Keturah.

5 ¶ And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the CONCUBINES, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

Same thing goes for Jacob.

Genesis 30

4 And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to WIFE: and Jacob went in unto her.

Genesis 35

22 And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father’s CONCUBINE: and Israel heard it.

So are you saying that Abraham and Jacob committed whoredoms?

Or are you saying that they really didn't have more than one wife at a time?

What are you saying?

I think this is an important point, because it establishes whether or not Joseph would have to have been doing something wrong if he had more than one wife.

[LDS Watchman]

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm assuming then that you believe that God did not approve of the plural marriages of Abraham and Jacob and that they were not justified in having more than one wife?

I think you have already said this, but I just wanted to confirm so I understand exactly what your position is.

Whether or not they were justified is different than being commanded to do it. There is a whole huge wide graping chasm between what God will tolerate and what he has commanded....

I would say that there is a big difference in what God tolerates and in what a man is justified in before God.

I don't believe that a man is every justified in breaking God's commandments.

Do you?

I believe a person can be called justified by God despite having broke Gods commands. Eventually we all will be justified if we’re lucky enough to be considered a friend of Him.

What is your basis for this belief?

I do not believe this belief is supportable from the scriptures.

[MMbelieve]

Whether or not they were justified is different than being commanded to do it. There is a whole huge wide graping chasm between what God will tolerate and what he has commanded....

I would say that there is a big difference in what God tolerates and in what a man is justified in before God.

I don't believe that a man is every justified in breaking God's commandments.

Do you?

I believe a person can be called justified by God despite having broke Gods commands. Eventually we all will be justified if we’re lucky enough to be considered a friend of Him.

What is your basis for this belief?

I do not believe this belief is supportable from the scriptures.

James 2
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

If the scriptures say a man can be justified who became the father of nations then why can’t you or I be justified also?
From the topical guide:

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, Isa. 45:25.
I know that I shall be justified, Job 13:18.
can man be justified with God, Job 25:4.
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many, Isa. 53:11 (Mosiah 14:11).
by him all that believe are justified from all things … could not be justified by the law, Acts 13:39.
doers of the law shall be justified, Rom. 2:13.
by … the law there shall no flesh be justified, Rom. 3:20 (2 Ne. 2:5).
man is justified by faith without the deeds, Rom. 3:28.
raised again for our justification, Rom. 4:25.
justified by faith, we have peace with God, Rom. 5:1.
being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved, Rom. 5:9.
free gift came upon all men unto justification of life, Rom. 5:18.
whom he called, them he also justified, Rom. 8:30.
It is God that justifieth, Rom. 8:33.
yet am I not hereby justified, 1 Cor. 4:4.
man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith, Gal. 2:16.
that we might be justified by faith, Gal. 3:24.
God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, 1 Tim. 3:16.
being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs, Titus 3:7.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, James 2:21.
by works a man is justified, and not by faith only, James 2:24 (2:14–26).
do ye suppose that God justifieth you in this thing, Jacob 2:14.
if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, Mosiah 4:25.
retaining a remission of your sins … walk guiltless, Mosiah 4:26.
thus retaining a remission of their sins, Alma 4:14.
Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless, Alma 5:27.
him will I hold guiltless before my Father, 3 Ne. 27:16.
he that is found guiltless before him, Morm. 7:7.
we know that justification … is just and true, D&C 20:30.
abide not in those conditions are not justified, D&C 88:39.
this is an ensample … for justification before me, D&C 98:38.
by the Spirit ye are justified, Moses 6:60.

Obviously every single human being breaks Gods commandments so yes, we eventually will be justified if we’re lucky enough to be found as a friend to God. To be justified is to be made clean through the atonement.

To counter the statement that Abraham was justified by God in his actions and say what he did was wrong and there’s no way Abraham is in heaven as the adulterer he was etc (whatever people’s narrative is) is seriously dangerous territory to enter. It’s basically saying Gods judgement is wrong and the atonement didn’t work for Abraham. If God said he was justified then he’s been made clean and that’s final. But the warning to us (book of Mormon) is to not justify ourselves based on his actions. God never said Abraham didn’t sin, he said he was made clean “justified”. This is what we all are working towards in the gospel plan, for God to justify us also despite having been sinners at times in our lives.

[MMbelieve]

After reading more about being justified in the scriptures, instead of one verse in D&C being the end all verse on the matter, I have a more solid belief in Abraham and others being justified in having many wives and concubines as being 100% true and with a better understanding.

The meaning of being justified seems to be qualifying for the atonement to make you clean and spotless to enter heaven. Abraham qualified because he passed his test of being willing to perform a sacrifice god asked of him. This qualified him to be made clean. So when the scripture says that Abraham was justified in having many wives it means he was made clean and spotless from that abomination specifically. It’s considered an abomination per Jacob.

God promised Isaac but he took matters in his own hands at the request of his wife. I can see this as Abraham messing up. They could have just waited for Isaac and trusted Gods word. I can also see God being forgiving of such an act, which exemplifies our true human nature to doubt and trust the arm of flesh. Yet he was then asked to sacrifice Isaac, not a coincidence at all, and he passed this test showing he had in fact learned to trust God and have patience and humility in his limited ability to understand....ie faith unwavering. He proved he learned to trust and have faith in God. His Hagar episode, not so much.
I wonder if he never doubted God in the first place if he wouldn’t then have been asked to sacrifice his son. His very painful test of sacrificing his son was likely to directly counter his lack of trusting God in the first place. But God being all wisdom and knowing the beginning to the end and his ability to produce something great from something unimpressive was able to make arrangements for all these actions and give them a purpose to further his plan and give praise to him. For example, the foreshadowing of Christ’s self sacrifice with the Ram in the thickets.

The traditional narrative from both sides of the debate tend to cloud our minds and limit the ability to see outside the box. So thankyou Matthias for posing the question to me about why I believed we all could be justified like Abraham, it helped me to see more clearly outside this box I call church culture.

[cab]

I've never taken the stance that I'm sure that Joseph didn't start it. I've only ever said that, IF I WAS FORCED to give my opinion, I'd take Joseph at his word, that he did not practice or preach.

The stance I have taken is that polygamy is wrong whether or not Joseph practiced it, that he too would have been wrong if he preached and practiced it. That polygamy has never been commanded or approved.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm assuming then that you believe that God did not approve of the plural marriages of Abraham and Jacob and that they were not justified in having more than one wife?

I think you have already said this, but I just wanted to confirm so I understand exactly what your position is.

Whether or not they were justified is different than being commanded to do it. There is a whole huge wide graping chasm between what God will tolerate and what he has commanded....

I would say that there is a big difference in what God tolerates and in what a man is justified in before God.

I don't believe that a man is every justified in breaking God's commandments.

Do you?

Ok, I agree. But no one is saying Abraham or Jacob were commanded TO NOT DO what they did. I believe they did what was culturally appropriate, though not ideal in God's eyes...

And Brigham's taking of over 20 wives within the year of Joseph's death is no where near comparable to Abraham and Jacob's situation...

I don't believe all polygamy is necessarily an abomination... Just the type practiced by David, Solomon, King Noah, Riplakish, Nephites in Jacob 1-2, Brigham, Heber C Kimball, Parley Pratt etc.

[cab]

After reading more about being justified in the scriptures, instead of one verse in D&C being the end all verse on the matter, I have a more solid belief in Abraham and others being justified in having many wives and concubines as being 100% true and with a better understanding.

The meaning of being justified seems to be qualifying for the atonement to make you clean and spotless to enter heaven. Abraham qualified because he passed his test of being willing to perform a sacrifice god asked of him. This qualified him to be made clean. So when the scripture says that Abraham was justified in having many wives it means he was made clean and spotless from that abomination specifically. It’s considered an abomination per Jacob.

God promised Isaac but he took matters in his own hands at the request of his wife. I can see this as Abraham messing up. They could have just waited for Isaac and trusted Gods word. I can also see God being forgiving of such an act, which exemplifies our true human nature to doubt and trust the arm of flesh. Yet he was then asked to sacrifice Isaac, not a coincidence at all, and he passed this test showing he had in fact learned to trust God and have patience and humility in his limited ability to understand....ie faith unwavering. He proved he learned to trust and have faith in God. His Hagar episode, not so much.
I wonder if he never doubted God in the first place if he wouldn’t then have been asked to sacrifice his son. His very painful test of sacrificing his son was likely to directly counter his lack of trusting God in the first place. But God being all wisdom and knowing the beginning to the end and his ability to produce something great from something unimpressive was able to make arrangements for all these actions and give them a purpose to further his plan and give praise to him. For example, the foreshadowing of Christ’s self sacrifice with the Ram in the thickets.

The traditional narrative from both sides of the debate tend to cloud our minds and limit the ability to see outside the box. So thankyou Matthias for posing the question to me about why I believed we all could be justified like Abraham, it helped me to see more clearly outside this box I call church culture.

MM, I think you're touching on some deep and awesome stuff here.... I am a strong believer that the stories of Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and other patriarchs, including their errors and eventual triumphs, are meant to directly shadow the errors and eventual triumph of the entire covenant people of the House of Israel... There are endless parrelells between the House of Israel with barren wives, fruitful wives, adulterous spouses, fruitful trees, wild trees, grafting of different branches (wives?) etc before it's ultimate redemption in the end times.

I believe there are deep mysteries hidden in the stories of these people, especially seen in the stories of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel (and their mothers) and their eventual justification and sanctification (or lack thereof), that will one day prove as another witness of the mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ and how he had his hand in every single detail to redeem his covenant people - Despite their many grevious errors and missteps along the way...

3 Nephi 10
"4 O ye people of these great cities which have fallen, who are descendants of Jacob, yea, who are of the house of Israel, how oft have I gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and have nourished you.
5 And again, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen; yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, ye that dwell at Jerusalem, as ye that have fallen; yea, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not.
6 O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.
7 But if not, O house of Israel, the places of your dwellings shall become desolate until the time of the fulfilling of the covenant to your fathers."

[MMbelieve]

After reading more about being justified in the scriptures, instead of one verse in D&C being the end all verse on the matter, I have a more solid belief in Abraham and others being justified in having many wives and concubines as being 100% true and with a better understanding.

The meaning of being justified seems to be qualifying for the atonement to make you clean and spotless to enter heaven. Abraham qualified because he passed his test of being willing to perform a sacrifice god asked of him. This qualified him to be made clean. So when the scripture says that Abraham was justified in having many wives it means he was made clean and spotless from that abomination specifically. It’s considered an abomination per Jacob.

God promised Isaac but he took matters in his own hands at the request of his wife. I can see this as Abraham messing up. They could have just waited for Isaac and trusted Gods word. I can also see God being forgiving of such an act, which exemplifies our true human nature to doubt and trust the arm of flesh. Yet he was then asked to sacrifice Isaac, not a coincidence at all, and he passed this test showing he had in fact learned to trust God and have patience and humility in his limited ability to understand....ie faith unwavering. He proved he learned to trust and have faith in God. His Hagar episode, not so much.
I wonder if he never doubted God in the first place if he wouldn’t then have been asked to sacrifice his son. His very painful test of sacrificing his son was likely to directly counter his lack of trusting God in the first place. But God being all wisdom and knowing the beginning to the end and his ability to produce something great from something unimpressive was able to make arrangements for all these actions and give them a purpose to further his plan and give praise to him. For example, the foreshadowing of Christ’s self sacrifice with the Ram in the thickets.

The traditional narrative from both sides of the debate tend to cloud our minds and limit the ability to see outside the box. So thankyou Matthias for posing the question to me about why I believed we all could be justified like Abraham, it helped me to see more clearly outside this box I call church culture.

MM, I think you're touching on some deep and awesome stuff here.... I am a strong believer that the stories of Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and other patriarchs, including their errors and eventual triumphs, are meant to directly shadow the errors and eventual triumph of the entire covenant people of the House of Israel... There are endless parrelells between the House of Israel with barren wives, fruitful wives, adulterous spouses, fruitful trees, wild trees, grafting of different branches (wives?) etc before it's ultimate redemption in the end times.

I believe there are deep mysteries hidden in the stories of these people, especially seen in the stories of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel (and their mothers) and their eventual justification and sanctification (or lack thereof), that will one day prove as another witness of the mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ and how he had his hand in every single detail to redeem his covenant people - Despite their many grevious errors and missteps along the way...

3 Nephi 10
"4 O ye people of these great cities which have fallen, who are descendants of Jacob, yea, who are of the house of Israel, how oft have I gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and have nourished you.
5 And again, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen; yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, ye that dwell at Jerusalem, as ye that have fallen; yea, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not.
6 O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.
7 But if not, O house of Israel, the places of your dwellings shall become desolate until the time of the fulfilling of the covenant to your fathers."

Thanks. And thank you for adding what you did.

We know in the end there are two churches (brides) and Christ marries one of them.

Like the Isaiah scripture about 7 women to 1 man. This is representing the 7 churches in revelations. They will ask to take His name upon them but will provide for themselves and ask nothing of him. In other words, He will be used but not placed in a righteous or honorable position with these women (churches). The churches will claim the name of Christ but will operate their own form of His gospel message. This is not a godly ordained form of marriage to have the husband exempt from providing and leading. The bride of Christ will not only take his name upon them but will also become one with Him and He will give them their every need.

Women, wives, whores, harlots, concubines are used liberally throughout the scriptures which leads even more towards the scriptures written for men to understand.