Why people believe joseph was monogamist

[LDS Watchman]

Please provide sources and/or evidence for this claim.

I don't believe this is true at all.

Buy it. Read it. Decide for yourself.

https://www.amazon.com/Exoneration-Emma ... B07728CX7N

670+ pages of citations from journals, documents, church history, etc.

I've read "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" and several other similar works. Can you give some examples of evidences in this book that prove that Joseph was not a secret polygamist and especially that he was murdered by those he thought were his friends?

Church history sources are easy to find online and many journals are, too.

I've heard some chatter, mostly from disciples of Denver Snuffer, accusing Brigham Young and other apostles of being behind Joseph's murder. When I've asked for evidence I get crickets.

Emma marrying a non-Mormon adulterer, in Lewis Bidamon, is very bizarre behavior wouldn't you agree? Could she really not find another husband who was a member of the faith and a righteous priesthood holder to support her and help raise Joseph's kids?

Seems like she was pretty mentally unstable at this point.

An interesting piece of evidence (mind you there's no PROOF for either side of the argument) is the ballistic analysis, specifically the bullet hole in John Taylor's pocket watch... It fits the caliber pistol Joseph was known to be carrying... John Taylor and Willard Richards' claims that these were "musket balls" from rifles is likely false, as a musket ball from close range would have anialated the pocket watch (along with John Taylor's leg and hip)...... chirp chirp

So your suggesting that John Taylor and Willard Richards were part of the mob and that it was Joseph who shot John Taylor?

[Alexander]

670+ pages of citations from journals, documents, church history, etc.

I've read "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" and several other similar works. Can you give some examples of evidences in this book that prove that Joseph was not a secret polygamist and especially that he was murdered by those he thought were his friends?

Church history sources are easy to find online and many journals are, too.

I've heard some chatter, mostly from disciples of Denver Snuffer, accusing Brigham Young and other apostles of being behind Joseph's murder. When I've asked for evidence I get crickets.

Emma marrying a non-Mormon adulterer, in Lewis Bidamon, is very bizarre behavior wouldn't you agree? Could she really not find another husband who was a member of the faith and a righteous priesthood holder to support her and help raise Joseph's kids?

Seems like she was pretty mentally unstable at this point.

An interesting piece of evidence (mind you there's no PROOF for either side of the argument) is the ballistic analysis, specifically the bullet hole in John Taylor's pocket watch... It fits the caliber pistol Joseph was known to be carrying... John Taylor and Willard Richards' claims that these were "musket balls" from rifles is likely false, as a musket ball from close range would have anialated the pocket watch (along with John Taylor's leg and hip)...... chirp chirp

So your suggesting that John Taylor and Willard Richards were part of the mob and that it was Joseph who shot John Taylor?

Perhaps they were. We know John and Willard went to carthage willingly and were not arrested. John and Willard visited Joseph and Hyrum a few times in prison and were also prominent polygamous men. Perhaps they were in on it. If we subscribe to the idea that Joseph was monogomous, the idea that there was conspiracy against Joseph and Hyrum is very possible. It's hard to know if they (John and Willard) were a part of the martyrdom of Joseph or if they weren't, but the ballistic analysis makes a good point.

[LDS Watchman]

I've read "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" and several other similar works. Can you give some examples of evidences in this book that prove that Joseph was not a secret polygamist and especially that he was murdered by those he thought were his friends?

Church history sources are easy to find online and many journals are, too.

I've heard some chatter, mostly from disciples of Denver Snuffer, accusing Brigham Young and other apostles of being behind Joseph's murder. When I've asked for evidence I get crickets.

Emma marrying a non-Mormon adulterer, in Lewis Bidamon, is very bizarre behavior wouldn't you agree? Could she really not find another husband who was a member of the faith and a righteous priesthood holder to support her and help raise Joseph's kids?

Seems like she was pretty mentally unstable at this point.

An interesting piece of evidence (mind you there's no PROOF for either side of the argument) is the ballistic analysis, specifically the bullet hole in John Taylor's pocket watch... It fits the caliber pistol Joseph was known to be carrying... John Taylor and Willard Richards' claims that these were "musket balls" from rifles is likely false, as a musket ball from close range would have anialated the pocket watch (along with John Taylor's leg and hip)...... chirp chirp

So your suggesting that John Taylor and Willard Richards were part of the mob and that it was Joseph who shot John Taylor?

Perhaps they were. We know John and Willard went to carthage willingly and were not arrested. John and Willard visited Joseph and Hyrum a few times in prison and were also prominent polygamous men. Perhaps they were in on it. If we subscribe to the idea that Joseph was monogomous, the idea that there was conspiracy against Joseph and Hyrum is very possible. It's hard to know if they (John and Willard) were a part of the martyrdom of Joseph or if they weren't, but the ballistic analysis makes a good point.

The ballistic analysis is pretty weak in my opinion.

What would these two unarmed men have even been doing as part of this conspiracy?

I'm not aware of any evidence that any of the 12 apostles were conspiring to kill Joseph.

I think it's all wishful thinking by those who insist Joseph was a strict monogamist.

[Alexander]

670+ pages of citations from journals, documents, church history, etc.

I've read "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" and several other similar works. Can you give some examples of evidences in this book that prove that Joseph was not a secret polygamist and especially that he was murdered by those he thought were his friends?

Church history sources are easy to find online and many journals are, too.

I've heard some chatter, mostly from disciples of Denver Snuffer, accusing Brigham Young and other apostles of being behind Joseph's murder. When I've asked for evidence I get crickets.

Emma marrying a non-Mormon adulterer, in Lewis Bidamon, is very bizarre behavior wouldn't you agree? Could she really not find another husband who was a member of the faith and a righteous priesthood holder to support her and help raise Joseph's kids?

Seems like she was pretty mentally unstable at this point.

An interesting piece of evidence (mind you there's no PROOF for either side of the argument) is the ballistic analysis, specifically the bullet hole in John Taylor's pocket watch... It fits the caliber pistol Joseph was known to be carrying... John Taylor and Willard Richards' claims that these were "musket balls" from rifles is likely false, as a musket ball from close range would have anialated the pocket watch (along with John Taylor's leg and hip)...... chirp chirp

So your suggesting that John Taylor and Willard Richards were part of the mob and that it was Joseph who shot John Taylor?

This idea could explain how John and Willard survived

[LDS Watchman]

I've read "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" and several other similar works. Can you give some examples of evidences in this book that prove that Joseph was not a secret polygamist and especially that he was murdered by those he thought were his friends?

Church history sources are easy to find online and many journals are, too.

I've heard some chatter, mostly from disciples of Denver Snuffer, accusing Brigham Young and other apostles of being behind Joseph's murder. When I've asked for evidence I get crickets.

Emma marrying a non-Mormon adulterer, in Lewis Bidamon, is very bizarre behavior wouldn't you agree? Could she really not find another husband who was a member of the faith and a righteous priesthood holder to support her and help raise Joseph's kids?

Seems like she was pretty mentally unstable at this point.

An interesting piece of evidence (mind you there's no PROOF for either side of the argument) is the ballistic analysis, specifically the bullet hole in John Taylor's pocket watch... It fits the caliber pistol Joseph was known to be carrying... John Taylor and Willard Richards' claims that these were "musket balls" from rifles is likely false, as a musket ball from close range would have anialated the pocket watch (along with John Taylor's leg and hip)...... chirp chirp

So your suggesting that John Taylor and Willard Richards were part of the mob and that it was Joseph who shot John Taylor?

This idea could explain how John and Willard survived

And the traditional narrative explains it, too. The work of Joseph and Hyrum was finished, but God still had work for John and Willard to do.

Willard also attributed the wearing of his garments as a reason why he survived without a scratch.

[cab]

670+ pages of citations from journals, documents, church history, etc.

I've read "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" and several other similar works. Can you give some examples of evidences in this book that prove that Joseph was not a secret polygamist and especially that he was murdered by those he thought were his friends?

Church history sources are easy to find online and many journals are, too.

I've heard some chatter, mostly from disciples of Denver Snuffer, accusing Brigham Young and other apostles of being behind Joseph's murder. When I've asked for evidence I get crickets.

Emma marrying a non-Mormon adulterer, in Lewis Bidamon, is very bizarre behavior wouldn't you agree? Could she really not find another husband who was a member of the faith and a righteous priesthood holder to support her and help raise Joseph's kids?

Seems like she was pretty mentally unstable at this point.

An interesting piece of evidence (mind you there's no PROOF for either side of the argument) is the ballistic analysis, specifically the bullet hole in John Taylor's pocket watch... It fits the caliber pistol Joseph was known to be carrying... John Taylor and Willard Richards' claims that these were "musket balls" from rifles is likely false, as a musket ball from close range would have anialated the pocket watch (along with John Taylor's leg and hip)...... chirp chirp

So your suggesting that John Taylor and Willard Richards were part of the mob and that it was Joseph who shot John Taylor?

I'm not saying that I believe it. But I'm suggesting that there's plausible evidence of it. And I'm also suggesting that this is at least as plausible as the mighty prophet of this dispensation not only having sex with around 30 women, but then bearing no progeny....

To be honest, nothing would surprise me.

[cab]

An interesting piece of evidence (mind you there's no PROOF for either side of the argument) is the ballistic analysis, specifically the bullet hole in John Taylor's pocket watch... It fits the caliber pistol Joseph was known to be carrying... John Taylor and Willard Richards' claims that these were "musket balls" from rifles is likely false, as a musket ball from close range would have anialated the pocket watch (along with John Taylor's leg and hip)...... chirp chirp

So your suggesting that John Taylor and Willard Richards were part of the mob and that it was Joseph who shot John Taylor?

Perhaps they were. We know John and Willard went to carthage willingly and were not arrested. John and Willard visited Joseph and Hyrum a few times in prison and were also prominent polygamous men. Perhaps they were in on it. If we subscribe to the idea that Joseph was monogomous, the idea that there was conspiracy against Joseph and Hyrum is very possible. It's hard to know if they (John and Willard) were a part of the martyrdom of Joseph or if they weren't, but the ballistic analysis makes a good point.

The ballistic analysis is pretty weak in my opinion.

What would these two unarmed men have even been doing as part of this conspiracy?

I'm not aware of any evidence that any of the 12 apostles were conspiring to kill Joseph.

I think it's all wishful thinking by those who insist Joseph was a strict monogamist.

Who says they were unarmed? There's at least one account that when Willard Richards went to go get whiskey that that's not all he came back with. Hyrum had a gun too.

What could they have been doing as part of the conspiracy? Was there a plausible motive? Well, if they, and other members of the twelve had already set their hearts upon polygamy (and begun practicing it) and if they viewed Joseph and Hyrum as impediments, then there's a motive..... Under Brigham's doctrine of blood atonement, and if they viewed Joseph and Hyrum as fallen prophets, then it's plausible to see how they might believe that having Joseph and Hyrum killed would be a just and necessary measure in God's eyes...

[Alexander]

An interesting piece of evidence (mind you there's no PROOF for either side of the argument) is the ballistic analysis, specifically the bullet hole in John Taylor's pocket watch... It fits the caliber pistol Joseph was known to be carrying... John Taylor and Willard Richards' claims that these were "musket balls" from rifles is likely false, as a musket ball from close range would have anialated the pocket watch (along with John Taylor's leg and hip)...... chirp chirp

So your suggesting that John Taylor and Willard Richards were part of the mob and that it was Joseph who shot John Taylor?

This idea could explain how John and Willard survived

And the traditional narrative explains it, too. The work of Joseph and Hyrum was finished, but God still had work for John and Willard to do.

Willard also attributed the wearing of his garments as a reason why he survived without a scratch.

if williard claims the reason he survived was because he wore his garments, was the reason Joseph died because he didn't wear his garments? or was this only something in the case of Williard? If Willard only survived because he was wearing the garment, why did John survive while not wearing his garment? I'm not so sure we can say the reason Willard survived was because of this.

[LDS Watchman]

So your suggesting that John Taylor and Willard Richards were part of the mob and that it was Joseph who shot John Taylor?

This idea could explain how John and Willard survived

And the traditional narrative explains it, too. The work of Joseph and Hyrum was finished, but God still had work for John and Willard to do.

Willard also attributed the wearing of his garments as a reason why he survived without a scratch.

if williard claims the reason he survived was because he wore his garments, was the reason Joseph died because he didn't wear his garments? or was this only something in the case of Williard? If Willard only survived because he was wearing the garment, why did John survive while not wearing his garment? I'm not so sure we can say the reason Willard survived was because of this.

Willard claims Joseph, Hyrum, and John had all taken theirs off because it was so hot, but he had left his on.

John was severely injured, while Willard received not a scratch.

John survived and Joseph and Hyrum didn't because the Lord still had a work for John to do, but the work of Joseph and Hyrum was finished.

[LDS Watchman]

So your suggesting that John Taylor and Willard Richards were part of the mob and that it was Joseph who shot John Taylor?

Perhaps they were. We know John and Willard went to carthage willingly and were not arrested. John and Willard visited Joseph and Hyrum a few times in prison and were also prominent polygamous men. Perhaps they were in on it. If we subscribe to the idea that Joseph was monogomous, the idea that there was conspiracy against Joseph and Hyrum is very possible. It's hard to know if they (John and Willard) were a part of the martyrdom of Joseph or if they weren't, but the ballistic analysis makes a good point.

The ballistic analysis is pretty weak in my opinion.

What would these two unarmed men have even been doing as part of this conspiracy?

I'm not aware of any evidence that any of the 12 apostles were conspiring to kill Joseph.

I think it's all wishful thinking by those who insist Joseph was a strict monogamist.

Who says they were unarmed? There's at least one account that when Willard Richards went to go get whiskey that that's not all he came back with. Hyrum had a gun too.

What could they have been doing as part of the conspiracy? Was there a plausible motive? Well, if they, and other members of the twelve had already set their hearts upon polygamy (and begun practicing it) and if they viewed Joseph and Hyrum as impediments, then there's a motive..... Under Brigham's doctrine of blood atonement, and if they viewed Joseph and Hyrum as fallen prophets, then it's plausible to see how they might believe that having Joseph and Hyrum killed would be a just and necessary measure in God's eyes...

There's more plausible motive for Emma to have been part of the conspiracy that murdered Joseph because he was secretly practicing plural marriage, than for what you're suggesting about the apostles being part of the conspiracy to kill Joseph because he was going to expose them for their secret polygamy.

There's zero evidence for either.

The evidence that exists, such as the Nauvoo Expositor, shows that Joseph was killed primarily because he was a secret polygamist not because he was fighting it.

[LDS Watchman]

I've read "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" and several other similar works. Can you give some examples of evidences in this book that prove that Joseph was not a secret polygamist and especially that he was murdered by those he thought were his friends?

Church history sources are easy to find online and many journals are, too.

I've heard some chatter, mostly from disciples of Denver Snuffer, accusing Brigham Young and other apostles of being behind Joseph's murder. When I've asked for evidence I get crickets.

Emma marrying a non-Mormon adulterer, in Lewis Bidamon, is very bizarre behavior wouldn't you agree? Could she really not find another husband who was a member of the faith and a righteous priesthood holder to support her and help raise Joseph's kids?

Seems like she was pretty mentally unstable at this point.

An interesting piece of evidence (mind you there's no PROOF for either side of the argument) is the ballistic analysis, specifically the bullet hole in John Taylor's pocket watch... It fits the caliber pistol Joseph was known to be carrying... John Taylor and Willard Richards' claims that these were "musket balls" from rifles is likely false, as a musket ball from close range would have anialated the pocket watch (along with John Taylor's leg and hip)...... chirp chirp

So your suggesting that John Taylor and Willard Richards were part of the mob and that it was Joseph who shot John Taylor?

I'm not saying that I believe it. But I'm suggesting that there's plausible evidence of it. And I'm also suggesting that this is at least as plausible as the mighty prophet of this dispensation not only having sex with around 30 women, but then bearing no progeny....

To be honest, nothing would surprise me.

So do you believe that Joseph was actually the one who shot John Taylor or not?

[cab]

Perhaps they were. We know John and Willard went to carthage willingly and were not arrested. John and Willard visited Joseph and Hyrum a few times in prison and were also prominent polygamous men. Perhaps they were in on it. If we subscribe to the idea that Joseph was monogomous, the idea that there was conspiracy against Joseph and Hyrum is very possible. It's hard to know if they (John and Willard) were a part of the martyrdom of Joseph or if they weren't, but the ballistic analysis makes a good point.

The ballistic analysis is pretty weak in my opinion.

What would these two unarmed men have even been doing as part of this conspiracy?

I'm not aware of any evidence that any of the 12 apostles were conspiring to kill Joseph.

I think it's all wishful thinking by those who insist Joseph was a strict monogamist.

Who says they were unarmed? There's at least one account that when Willard Richards went to go get whiskey that that's not all he came back with. Hyrum had a gun too.

What could they have been doing as part of the conspiracy? Was there a plausible motive? Well, if they, and other members of the twelve had already set their hearts upon polygamy (and begun practicing it) and if they viewed Joseph and Hyrum as impediments, then there's a motive..... Under Brigham's doctrine of blood atonement, and if they viewed Joseph and Hyrum as fallen prophets, then it's plausible to see how they might believe that having Joseph and Hyrum killed would be a just and necessary measure in God's eyes...

There's more plausible motive for Emma to have been part of the conspiracy that murdered Joseph because he was secretly practicing plural marriage, than for what you're suggesting about the apostles being part of the conspiracy to kill Joseph because he was going to expose them for their secret polygamy.

There's zero evidence for either.

The evidence that exists, such as the Nauvoo Expositor, shows that Joseph was killed primarily because he was a secret polygamist not because he was fighting it.

Well I'm sure Brigham would agree with you, as he claimed Emma tried to poison Joseph twice... Maybe you agree with this since you've already said Emma must have been "mentally unstable"... I think I'll side with Emma, as I believe Joseph would side with Emma.

And I think the fact that the polygamist marriage flood gates broke in 1844 is very telling of something...

[cab]

An interesting piece of evidence (mind you there's no PROOF for either side of the argument) is the ballistic analysis, specifically the bullet hole in John Taylor's pocket watch... It fits the caliber pistol Joseph was known to be carrying... John Taylor and Willard Richards' claims that these were "musket balls" from rifles is likely false, as a musket ball from close range would have anialated the pocket watch (along with John Taylor's leg and hip)...... chirp chirp

So your suggesting that John Taylor and Willard Richards were part of the mob and that it was Joseph who shot John Taylor?

I'm not saying that I believe it. But I'm suggesting that there's plausible evidence of it. And I'm also suggesting that this is at least as plausible as the mighty prophet of this dispensation not only having sex with around 30 women, but then bearing no progeny....

To be honest, nothing would surprise me.

So do you believe that Joseph was actually the one who shot John Taylor or not?

I don't know... I doubt I'll ever know until the veil is parted... I don't want it to be true, but I think it's at least as plausible as several other more popular explanations, which I don't believe nor want to be true either... The only thing I know is that I have a very VERY hard time believing the mainstream narrative any more, especially after seeing how weak the actual evidence is. Something is very amiss, and I lean towards believing every one of Joseph and Emma's public and contemporaneously made statements... And I choose to put very little stock in things like the Nauvoo Expositor.

Your turn...

Do you actually believe Emma was mentally unstable, or that she tried to poison Joseph (as BY alleged from General Conference), or "one of the damnedest liars on Earth" (as BY also alleged)?

[Robin Hood]

I find it really interesting how some people can believe something when it’s been PROVED blatantly false.... My point is is that saying joseph [sic] is a monogamist is like saying the earth is flat.

Basically, you're looking at the fact that a lot of people said Joseph was a polygamist. Their stories of how and when he introduced it to the church are in many cases contradictory or blatantly false, and the affidavits didn't hold up in a court of law. (In the Temple Lot suit between the LDS and non-LDS churches, the non-Mormon judge John Phillips found all the testimony that Joseph was a polygamist to be incredulous).

Proof would mean either a genetic link with one of the many children that Joseph's alleged wives allegedly bore him (so far they've all turned up false) or a document in Joseph's own hand supporting polygamy. And that proof has never been found.

So why do I believe that Joseph was a monogamist? Because there's a lot of evidence for it. I have a whole blog post titled The Best Evidence for Joseph's Monogamy, and if you want even more reasons, just consider the following:

Joseph Smith Denied It

Not only did the Prophet claim all throughout his life that he had no wives but Emma, he specifically instructed the women of Nauvoo not to believe anyone who claimed that Joseph practiced polygamy, or who claimed to have authority from Joseph to practice polygamy, even if "they are Prophets, Seers, or Revelators, Patriarchs, Twelve Apostles, Elders, Priests, Mayors, Generals, City Council, Alderman, Marshall, Police, Lord Mayor or the Devil."

And this wasn't just something that Joseph said prior to receiving Section 132. He kept denying polygamy clear up to his death; for instance, in this sermon of May 1844, when he said "What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers."

The canard that Joseph Smith was teaching polygamy in private but withholding the doctrine from the public until a future time holds no weight, as he specifically warned his people not to believe even a prophet or apostle who claimed to have authority to seal polygamous marriages. If the intention had been for the Saints to accept polygamy after Brigham went public with it, then Joseph would not have instructed them otherwise.

Genetic Evidence Clears Joseph

Several of the women who claimed to be Joseph's wives bore children during the time they were supposedly married to him. Over the last decade or so, Dr. Ugo Perego, has located descendants of some of these children and tested their DNA to determine of they were Joseph's offspring. Without an exception, the children were proven not to be Joseph's.
Obviously, not all of the alleged plural marriages left offspring, but when every testable claim against the Prophet turns out to be false (leaving only the untestable claims) that should surely count for something.

The Temple Lot Case

In this lawsuit involving the claims of rival branches of Mormonism to ownership of the Temple Lot in Missouri, both the LDS church under Wilford Woodruff and the RLDS church under Joseph Smith III claimed to be the rightful successors to the church that Joseph Smith had established. The case rested on the question of polygamy: if Joseph had taught and practiced polygamy, then the Utah church was the rightful successor, otherwise it was the Reorganized Church.
After hearing the arguments from both sides (including the affidavits and sworn testimonies of the alleged plural wives which the OP mentioned) the presiding Judge, John F. Philipps, concluded in his opinion that the testimony was unreliable, that Joseph Smith was a monogamist, and that Joseph Smith III was his father's rightful successor.

Contradictory Alibis

Brigham Young and his companions provided numerous and contradictory accounts of the circumstances under which polygamy had been introduced to the church. At one point, they stated that it all began with Section 132 in July of 1843, and that prior to that date, there had been no plural marriages practiced in the church. At another time, Brigham claimed that Joseph had taught him the Principle as early as 1841 (apparently this was necessary because Brigham married his first plural wife in 1842). Later in life, Brigham would say that he had learned the doctrine of polygamy in a personal vision which he received while in England, and only after he returned to America did he find out that Joseph had been given the same doctrine.

If Brigham's fundamental claim was true - namely, that he had been taught the Principle by Joseph - then, once he made the decision to go public, he would only have needed to tell one story about when and where this happened. The contradictory alibis show that they aren't telling the truth.

No Ex-Mormons Among Joseph's Wives

If Joseph had actually had as many wives as his enemies claim, then it is reasonable to believe that at least some of these women, after being seduced and exploited by the Prophet, would have become bitter toward him and the Church and turned into enemies of Mormonism. That is certainly what happened with many of Brigham Young's wives, such as Ann Eliza Webb, who became a minor celebrity with her caustic memoir Wife No. 19.

If Joseph had been doing what Brigham ended up doing, he would almost certainly have gotten the same result. And yet the only women who ever claimed to have been Joseph's wives were, by the time they made those claims, the wives of prominent polygamists in Utah: women like Eliza R. Snow, Brigham Young's favorite wife, who had a vested interest in defending the plural wife system.

Granted, there were plenty of non-Brighamites who accused Joseph of polygamy, but it's one thing to spue calumnies against someone you hate, and quite another thing to denounce an embarrassing relationship of which you were once a part. There were women who did the latter for Brigham, but not for Joseph, and this seems, in my mind, to be one of the strongest evidences for Joseph's monogamy.

There are number of serious flaws with your arguments

1. A document bearing Joseph's own handwriting or a genetic paternal match are not the only forms of proof to establish the fact that Joseph was a polygamist. Dozens of witnesses, some if whom didn't follow BY, testified that he did it. Thats proof. Remember the scripture which states that by the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. That is not proof. It's evidence, but not proof.

2. The judge's ruling in the temple lot case against the saints has zero impact on whether or not Joseph was a secret polygamist. At the time of the temple lot case the entire US and especially the government was against the saints, largely over polygamy. There's no way the saints of God were going to win that case, with an unjust Babylonian judge deciding the case. Perhaps with an impartial jury, but with a single judge. No way. The judges ruling cannot be ignored. BY had supposed plural wives of Joseph appear in court and were cross-examined. The judge found their testimonies completely unreliable and in some cases inconsistent.

3. Under the legitimate practice of Celestial plural marriage, Joseph wives were not used and exploited, so none would have had a reason to denounce him. "Many" of Brigham's wives did not leave him. A couple did. Wife 19 was a bitter apostate. Joseph had people betray and lie about him, too.

4. Joseph's first plural wife, Fanny Alger left the church. I don't know about any others. She declined to talk about her relationship with Joseph when asked about it years later, referring to it as a matter between her and Joseph. She certainly didn't deny it, when she would have had every reason to. Clearly there is no way, according to D&C 132, that Fanny Algar could be a plural wife of Joseph, as the sealing keys had not been restored at that time.

[LDS Watchman]

The ballistic analysis is pretty weak in my opinion.

What would these two unarmed men have even been doing as part of this conspiracy?

I'm not aware of any evidence that any of the 12 apostles were conspiring to kill Joseph.

I think it's all wishful thinking by those who insist Joseph was a strict monogamist.

Who says they were unarmed? There's at least one account that when Willard Richards went to go get whiskey that that's not all he came back with. Hyrum had a gun too.

What could they have been doing as part of the conspiracy? Was there a plausible motive? Well, if they, and other members of the twelve had already set their hearts upon polygamy (and begun practicing it) and if they viewed Joseph and Hyrum as impediments, then there's a motive..... Under Brigham's doctrine of blood atonement, and if they viewed Joseph and Hyrum as fallen prophets, then it's plausible to see how they might believe that having Joseph and Hyrum killed would be a just and necessary measure in God's eyes...

There's more plausible motive for Emma to have been part of the conspiracy that murdered Joseph because he was secretly practicing plural marriage, than for what you're suggesting about the apostles being part of the conspiracy to kill Joseph because he was going to expose them for their secret polygamy.

There's zero evidence for either.

The evidence that exists, such as the Nauvoo Expositor, shows that Joseph was killed primarily because he was a secret polygamist not because he was fighting it.

Well I'm sure Brigham would agree with you, as he claimed Emma tried to poison Joseph twice... Maybe you agree with this since you've already said Emma must have been "mentally unstable"... I think I'll side with Emma, as I believe Joseph would side with Emma.

And I think the fact that the polygamist marriage flood gates broke in 1844 is very telling of something...

You can believe whatever you want, but the evidence is what it is.

Emma marrying the nonreligious adulterer Lewis Bidamon is very strange action for a sane person to take.

[MMbelieve]

Who says they were unarmed? There's at least one account that when Willard Richards went to go get whiskey that that's not all he came back with. Hyrum had a gun too.

What could they have been doing as part of the conspiracy? Was there a plausible motive? Well, if they, and other members of the twelve had already set their hearts upon polygamy (and begun practicing it) and if they viewed Joseph and Hyrum as impediments, then there's a motive..... Under Brigham's doctrine of blood atonement, and if they viewed Joseph and Hyrum as fallen prophets, then it's plausible to see how they might believe that having Joseph and Hyrum killed would be a just and necessary measure in God's eyes...

There's more plausible motive for Emma to have been part of the conspiracy that murdered Joseph because he was secretly practicing plural marriage, than for what you're suggesting about the apostles being part of the conspiracy to kill Joseph because he was going to expose them for their secret polygamy.

There's zero evidence for either.

The evidence that exists, such as the Nauvoo Expositor, shows that Joseph was killed primarily because he was a secret polygamist not because he was fighting it.

Well I'm sure Brigham would agree with you, as he claimed Emma tried to poison Joseph twice... Maybe you agree with this since you've already said Emma must have been "mentally unstable"... I think I'll side with Emma, as I believe Joseph would side with Emma.

And I think the fact that the polygamist marriage flood gates broke in 1844 is very telling of something...

You can believe whatever you want, but the evidence is what it is.

Emma marrying the nonreligious adulterer Lewis Bidamon is very strange action for a sane person to take.

I see, Emma is the one thrown under the bus.

[Zathura]

Fact of the matter is, believers of either argument are kidding themselves if they think either argument is not on shaky ground.

[LDS Watchman]

There's more plausible motive for Emma to have been part of the conspiracy that murdered Joseph because he was secretly practicing plural marriage, than for what you're suggesting about the apostles being part of the conspiracy to kill Joseph because he was going to expose them for their secret polygamy.

There's zero evidence for either.

The evidence that exists, such as the Nauvoo Expositor, shows that Joseph was killed primarily because he was a secret polygamist not because he was fighting it.

Well I'm sure Brigham would agree with you, as he claimed Emma tried to poison Joseph twice... Maybe you agree with this since you've already said Emma must have been "mentally unstable"... I think I'll side with Emma, as I believe Joseph would side with Emma.

And I think the fact that the polygamist marriage flood gates broke in 1844 is very telling of something...

You can believe whatever you want, but the evidence is what it is.

Emma marrying the nonreligious adulterer Lewis Bidamon is very strange action for a sane person to take.

I see, Emma is the one thrown under the bus.

What's the difference between throwing Emma under the bus verses John Taylor, Willard Richards, or Brigham Young?

[Zathura]

Well I'm sure Brigham would agree with you, as he claimed Emma tried to poison Joseph twice... Maybe you agree with this since you've already said Emma must have been "mentally unstable"... I think I'll side with Emma, as I believe Joseph would side with Emma.

And I think the fact that the polygamist marriage flood gates broke in 1844 is very telling of something...

You can believe whatever you want, but the evidence is what it is.

Emma marrying the nonreligious adulterer Lewis Bidamon is very strange action for a sane person to take.

I see, Emma is the one thrown under the bus.

What's the difference between throwing Emma under the bus verses John Taylor, Willard Richards, or Brigham Young?

Because the actual meaning of that phrase matters.

There is no reason, no evidence that exists to suggest that Emma would have ever let the THOUGHT of killing Joseph enter her mind, let alone to suggest that Emma literally attempted to kill Joseph TWICE and burn the alleged revelation on marriage. You have only the allegations of Brigham. That's it. He is throwing her under the bus. If you want to justify Brigham's lies by claiming she had reason to want kill Joseph, then yes, you can go ahead and do that and then face the fact that Brigham and co had infinitely more reason to kill Joseph than she did. Lets just not go down that road , because it's pointless and leads into all kinds of assumptions about Brigham's intentions and aspirations.

Nobody is fabricating nonsense about Brigham(I'm not talking about the conspiracy to kill Joseph, I don't care to waste time talking about it, I'm talking about polygamy) and the other two. People are looking at things those men proudly lived and preached and, using scripture and church history, stating that they believe those actions and teachings to be an abomination, and not holy. Much different from the destruction of Emma's reputation.

[MMbelieve]

Well I'm sure Brigham would agree with you, as he claimed Emma tried to poison Joseph twice... Maybe you agree with this since you've already said Emma must have been "mentally unstable"... I think I'll side with Emma, as I believe Joseph would side with Emma.

And I think the fact that the polygamist marriage flood gates broke in 1844 is very telling of something...

You can believe whatever you want, but the evidence is what it is.

Emma marrying the nonreligious adulterer Lewis Bidamon is very strange action for a sane person to take.

I see, Emma is the one thrown under the bus.

What's the difference between throwing Emma under the bus verses John Taylor, Willard Richards, or Brigham Young?

Absolutely nothing and that’s kind of my point. Someone is always thrown under the bus. If not Joseph it’s BY if not them it’s now Emma. To me it honestly makes this quite immature. Why must anyone be thrown under the bus?

[LDS Watchman]

You can believe whatever you want, but the evidence is what it is.

Emma marrying the nonreligious adulterer Lewis Bidamon is very strange action for a sane person to take.

I see, Emma is the one thrown under the bus.

What's the difference between throwing Emma under the bus verses John Taylor, Willard Richards, or Brigham Young?

Absolutely nothing and that’s kind of my point. Someone is always thrown under the bus. If not Joseph it’s BY if not them it’s now Emma. To me it honestly makes this quite immature. Why must anyone be thrown under the bus?

Either Brigham or Emma was lying. Or perhaps they both lied. This is why someone has to be thrown under the bus.

The fact remains that Emma's marriage to Lewis Bidamon is very questionable.

Also if Joseph really was the one who introduced plural marriage and received D&C 132, then she lied.

I'm not throwing her under the bus anyways, just using the term you used.

I think she legitimately lost her mind to a certain extent because of Joseph's practice of polygamy. I think it tore her apart. Perhaps in God's wisdom and mercy he let her go crazy so that she wouldn't be responsible for her lies and perhaps even the attempted murder of Joseph (if Brigham's claim is true).

I'm not speaking evil of her. I'm not calling her a killer or a liar. I'm saying I think she snapped. I think the load she was asked to bear was too great and her mind just couldn't handle it.

I have hope that God will be merciful to her, and I believe in my heart that he will be.

[LDS Watchman]

Fact of the matter is, believers of either argument are kidding themselves if they think either argument is not on shaky ground.

Yes there are certainly ample reasons to question either narrative. It's certainly not cut and dry.

Having weighed the evidence extensively, I have concluded that the traditional narrative of the church in regards to plural marriage is true and that it began with Joseph.

[cab]

Who says they were unarmed? There's at least one account that when Willard Richards went to go get whiskey that that's not all he came back with. Hyrum had a gun too.

What could they have been doing as part of the conspiracy? Was there a plausible motive? Well, if they, and other members of the twelve had already set their hearts upon polygamy (and begun practicing it) and if they viewed Joseph and Hyrum as impediments, then there's a motive..... Under Brigham's doctrine of blood atonement, and if they viewed Joseph and Hyrum as fallen prophets, then it's plausible to see how they might believe that having Joseph and Hyrum killed would be a just and necessary measure in God's eyes...

There's more plausible motive for Emma to have been part of the conspiracy that murdered Joseph because he was secretly practicing plural marriage, than for what you're suggesting about the apostles being part of the conspiracy to kill Joseph because he was going to expose them for their secret polygamy.

There's zero evidence for either.

The evidence that exists, such as the Nauvoo Expositor, shows that Joseph was killed primarily because he was a secret polygamist not because he was fighting it.

Well I'm sure Brigham would agree with you, as he claimed Emma tried to poison Joseph twice... Maybe you agree with this since you've already said Emma must have been "mentally unstable"... I think I'll side with Emma, as I believe Joseph would side with Emma.

And I think the fact that the polygamist marriage flood gates broke in 1844 is very telling of something...

You can believe whatever you want, but the evidence is what it is.

Emma marrying the nonreligious adulterer Lewis Bidamon is very strange action for a sane person to take.

You are right about the evidence. It is what it is. And the record clearly shows that Joseph and Hyrum left zero writings that endorsed polygamy or "spiritual wifery" or anything of the sort, only that they were fighting it internally, nor did they leave any DNA evidence of having practiced it... But a whole lot of people SAID they both practiced and preached it in secret and commanded others to do the same... And a whole lot of people actually DID practice it, both in secret (before J & H were killed) and in public (after they were killed)... We are left with needing to figure out who to believe.

I'm sorry you don't approve of Emma's later choice of spouse... But at least she followed the commandment of the Book of Mormon and D&C to be "save it be one wife"... I'm sure Brigham was pretty upset she wouldn't make herself his wife #20...

Others have weighed all the available evidence too, Matthias, and simply come to a different conclusion... And that's ok.

[Zathura]

Fact of the matter is, believers of either argument are kidding themselves if they think either argument is not on shaky ground.

Yes there are certainly ample reasons to question either narrative. It's certainly not cut and dry.

Having weighed the evidence extensively, I have concluded that the traditional narrative of the church in regards to plural marriage is true and that it began with Joseph.

I’ve concluded that I don’t know, and whatever the full truth is, at the very least I do not believe the mainstream narrative because of the amount of accepted information that can be reliably dismissed or proven false.

[Mindfields]

What if the not wearing garments was just a rouse. The reason Joseph and Hyrum "weren't wearing their garments" was because they didn't wear garments at all. Saying that they didn't wear their garments was just helping build the false narrative that garments were Joseph Smiths invention. Those who prepared Joseph and Hyrum's bodies for burial would see that they weren't wearing garments so a story was concocted to account for this "anomaly".

The provenance of garments is yet another instance of no direct quotes or writings coming from Joseph Smith; all that exists are just others saying that Joseph Smith was behind the introduction and creation of the first garment. Why are so many of the important doctrines and historical events in the church just remembrances or hearsay? It's very disheartening.