The telestial kingdom reality

[Kingdom of ZION]

BY said that there is no such thing as Daughters of Perdition, and many other have said such. I have shared my witness that there is no such thing as Daughters of Perdition for 30 years now. One needs their own witness, on this and many other things in the Gospel.

personal experience aside, i feel like a woman who cant entirely fall also cant entirely rise. if there are no daughters of perdition, how can a woman be exalted for true?

You are absolutely correct here! They cannot fall as far as men, no rise as high. G_d is G_d... I am that I am... not We are that We are! Can there be a G_d without Women? NO! Nor vise a versa but until the Man passes through the veil, the Women that are sealed to Him cannot. If their Husband and King falls, they have to come down here again to be resealed up unto another King. Much more can be said about this understanding of the heavens, but most here will not here it. They want to fashion a god in there own image or by the desires of their own intellect, heart, or feelings. That is the personal great apostasy! Women as well as Men want it to be all inclusive. That is what the world wants and teaches! It brings only disappointment and death!

You saying a man can bring himself through the veil?

Based on what your implying, most women will have a nearly never ending recycle back to earth with a nearly never ending amount of husbands. Few make it after this life and are qualified for a celestial glory as a couple and if a woman is completely dependent upon a “naturally evil” man then the system seems designed to be against women with no fault of their own. Your presentation seems more fitting if the naturally good woman brings the less than good man under her wing and she qualifies them both.

I can see this design you have presented as being from a mind of a polygamist viewpoint. But since polygamy is not a requirement for a couple to be exalted (BY even agreed with this) then I tend to chalk this up to early church creative preaching from the pulpit only.

No... you have been endowed? No one brings themselves through the veil. A Man's Father brings him through as His Son, and the Man then brings His Wives through as their Father, Husband, and King.

I did warn you that most people will not except the true order of the Heavens... are you trying to prove my point here?

Marriage is given in this world, not the world to come... I did not make the rules here. But no, women get bunched up as in King David's wives being given to one who is worthy, when KD fell.

What makes a God G_D, is a being that is evil in nature, becomes absolutely perfect, all creation will obey Him. Men, after they pass on into the Fourth Estate, they will either become a G_d or a SoP, whereas, billions of women who make it there, the Celestial kingdom, if they refuse to live CPM, then they become angels, servants of those who are worthy of that eternal weight of glory.

The only reason a women is not required to live CPM to be exalted is that it does not have to be lived in every life time, as in every life of their Eternal Lives (Nine Times down here, in a world like this). There are no Monogamist Gods.

If you see it differently, that fine, time will prove out all things in the end!

[Alexander]

I frankly have an issue with people pre-empting names of well-known writers as their screen names. I think you should cease and desist on this.

Ok, I’m sorry my name created an issue. My username is specifically based off of the movie Fight Club. Tyler is a symbol of everything the narrator was afraid to do, and everything the narrator wants to be. I thought it was appropriate, but perhaps not? I also don’t think your comment has anything to do with this discussion on the telestial kingdom. Perhaps you could have messaged me personally.

[Kingdom of ZION]

I frankly have an issue with people pre-empting names of well-known writers as their screen names. I think you should cease and desist on this.

Ok, I’m sorry my name created an issue. My username is specifically based off of the movie Fight Club. Tyler is a symbol of everything the narrator was afraid to do, and everything the narrator wants to be. I thought it was appropriate, but perhaps not? I also don’t think your comment has anything to do with this discussion on the telestial kingdom. Perhaps you could have messaged me personally.

I could care less what you want to call yourself, save the use of Holy Names or trying to impersonate a living person.

No one can please everyone... I would not worry about it.

[MMbelieve]

personal experience aside, i feel like a woman who cant entirely fall also cant entirely rise. if there are no daughters of perdition, how can a woman be exalted for true?

You are absolutely correct here! They cannot fall as far as men, no rise as high. G_d is G_d... I am that I am... not We are that We are! Can there be a G_d without Women? NO! Nor vise a versa but until the Man passes through the veil, the Women that are sealed to Him cannot. If their Husband and King falls, they have to come down here again to be resealed up unto another King. Much more can be said about this understanding of the heavens, but most here will not here it. They want to fashion a god in there own image or by the desires of their own intellect, heart, or feelings. That is the personal great apostasy! Women as well as Men want it to be all inclusive. That is what the world wants and teaches! It brings only disappointment and death!

You saying a man can bring himself through the veil?

Based on what your implying, most women will have a nearly never ending recycle back to earth with a nearly never ending amount of husbands. Few make it after this life and are qualified for a celestial glory as a couple and if a woman is completely dependent upon a “naturally evil” man then the system seems designed to be against women with no fault of their own. Your presentation seems more fitting if the naturally good woman brings the less than good man under her wing and she qualifies them both.

I can see this design you have presented as being from a mind of a polygamist viewpoint. But since polygamy is not a requirement for a couple to be exalted (BY even agreed with this) then I tend to chalk this up to early church creative preaching from the pulpit only.

No... you have been endowed? No one brings themselves through the veil. A Man's Father brings him through as His Son, and the Man then brings His Wives through as their Father, Husband, and King.

I did warn you that most people will not except the true order of the Heavens... are you trying to prove my point here?

Marriage is given in this world, not the world to come... I did not make the rules here. But no, women get bunched up as in King David's wives being given to one who is worthy, when KD fell.

What makes a God G_D, is a being that is evil in nature, becomes absolutely perfect, all creation will obey Him. Men, after they pass on into the Fourth Estate, they will either become a G_d or a SoP, whereas, billions of women who make it there, the Celestial kingdom, if they refuse to live CPM, then they become angels, servants of those who are worthy of that eternal weight of glory.

The only reason a women is not required to live CPM to be exalted is that it does not have to be lived in every life time, as in every life of their Eternal Lives (Nine Times down here, in a world like this). There are no Monogamist Gods.

If you see it differently, that fine, time will prove out all things in the end!

With your logic then men must come back here as often as women do because they too are dependent upon a man to bring them through the veil. No greater chance a mans father is worthy than any woman’s husband is worthy. Or if a woman is sent back here because her husband is not worthy then so are all her children and then their children sent back. I do not believe in your statements as truth. You may believe as you wish and yes, time will reveal.

[Kingdom of ZION]

You are absolutely correct here! They cannot fall as far as men, no rise as high. G_d is G_d... I am that I am... not We are that We are! Can there be a G_d without Women? NO! Nor vise a versa but until the Man passes through the veil, the Women that are sealed to Him cannot. If their Husband and King falls, they have to come down here again to be resealed up unto another King. Much more can be said about this understanding of the heavens, but most here will not here it. They want to fashion a god in there own image or by the desires of their own intellect, heart, or feelings. That is the personal great apostasy! Women as well as Men want it to be all inclusive. That is what the world wants and teaches! It brings only disappointment and death!

You saying a man can bring himself through the veil?

Based on what your implying, most women will have a nearly never ending recycle back to earth with a nearly never ending amount of husbands. Few make it after this life and are qualified for a celestial glory as a couple and if a woman is completely dependent upon a “naturally evil” man then the system seems designed to be against women with no fault of their own. Your presentation seems more fitting if the naturally good woman brings the less than good man under her wing and she qualifies them both.

I can see this design you have presented as being from a mind of a polygamist viewpoint. But since polygamy is not a requirement for a couple to be exalted (BY even agreed with this) then I tend to chalk this up to early church creative preaching from the pulpit only.

No... you have been endowed? No one brings themselves through the veil. A Man's Father brings him through as His Son, and the Man then brings His Wives through as their Father, Husband, and King.

I did warn you that most people will not except the true order of the Heavens... are you trying to prove my point here?

Marriage is given in this world, not the world to come... I did not make the rules here. But no, women get bunched up as in King David's wives being given to one who is worthy, when KD fell.

What makes a God G_D, is a being that is evil in nature, becomes absolutely perfect, all creation will obey Him. Men, after they pass on into the Fourth Estate, they will either become a G_d or a SoP, whereas, billions of women who make it there, the Celestial kingdom, if they refuse to live CPM, then they become angels, servants of those who are worthy of that eternal weight of glory.

The only reason a women is not required to live CPM to be exalted is that it does not have to be lived in every life time, as in every life of their Eternal Lives (Nine Times down here, in a world like this). There are no Monogamist Gods.

If you see it differently, that fine, time will prove out all things in the end!

With your logic then men must come back here as often as women do because they too are dependent upon a man to bring them through the veil. No greater chance a mans father is worthy than any woman’s husband is worthy. Or if a woman is sent back here because her husband is not worthy then so are all her children and then their children sent back. I do not believe in your statements as truth. You may believe as you wish and yes, time will reveal.

SO when Lucifer fell, and we are told that his wives and children did not follow him, your saying that they all had to come back here... because I am not saying that. Yes the wives do. Women do not have to come all 9 times however, just that they can if needed. As for Men, if they fall then that creation is their last creation for them, save they become a Satan in the next creation. So most Men do not come all of the 9 times that they should.

As for the man's father being lost or fallen, that is why we have the doctrine of Adoption, and the true order of Sealings, which was abandoned over a hundred years ago.

[abijah`]

You are absolutely correct here! They cannot fall as far as men, no rise as high. G_d is G_d... I am that I am... not We are that We are! Can there be a G_d without Women? NO! Nor vise a versa but until the Man passes through the veil, the Women that are sealed to Him cannot. If their Husband and King falls, they have to come down here again to be resealed up unto another King. Much more can be said about this understanding of the heavens, but most here will not here it. They want to fashion a god in there own image or by the desires of their own intellect, heart, or feelings. That is the personal great apostasy! Women as well as Men want it to be all inclusive. That is what the world wants and teaches! It brings only disappointment and death!

im not against what you have to say here. there are definitely evidences to back up your point. men often find themselves on the fringes of the bell curve, in more ways than one.

yes a man cant be exalted alone. it was never good for man to be alone

i can see your reasoning behind a woman not being able to completely fall on her own.

perhaps this sheds some light on john's revelatory perspective where the whore of babylon is concerned

the woman was made specifically for the man and not the other way around.

[Kingdom of ZION]

You are absolutely correct here! They cannot fall as far as men, no rise as high. G_d is G_d... I am that I am... not We are that We are! Can there be a G_d without Women? NO! Nor vise a versa but until the Man passes through the veil, the Women that are sealed to Him cannot. If their Husband and King falls, they have to come down here again to be resealed up unto another King. Much more can be said about this understanding of the heavens, but most here will not here it. They want to fashion a god in there own image or by the desires of their own intellect, heart, or feelings. That is the personal great apostasy! Women as well as Men want it to be all inclusive. That is what the world wants and teaches! It brings only disappointment and death!

im not against what you have to say here. there are definitely evidences to back up your point. men often find themselves on the fringes of the bell curve, in more ways than one.

yes a man cant be exalted alone. it was never good for man to be alone

i can see your reasoning behind a woman not being able to completely fall on her own.

perhaps this sheds some light on john's revelatory perspective where the whore of babylon is concerned

the woman was made specifically for the man and not the other way around.

Every war that is fought in heaven, it is G_d, and the Sons of G_d who fight them. Every world created (organized), is brought forth by G_d and His Son, Grandson, and Great Grandson. As the saying goes, the buck stops with... (fill in the blank - a male emnity). I too agree, women have there indispensable place. It is the reason why every G_d has sacrificed their all for their companionship, love, and support! Nothing has changed here verses there except the levels of perfection, the scale of importance, and the oneness of purpose. The union of spirit and soul between G_d and a Wife is beyond what we can have here, save glimpse to a few who have an eternal relation here and are older spirits.

[Davka]

This world is a telestial world. What are your thoughts on the idea that the telestial kingdom is this mortal life? That those who inherit the telestial kingdom receive another mortality in another telestial world continuing their probation.

This would make sense if there is progression between kingdoms.

2 Nephi
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

Yep, this is what I think. This came to me when I was imagining what a telestial hell would look like, abd I realized it would be a place where murderers and rapists and child molesters and liars roam free, where immorality is celebrated, where fear and emotional and physical pain is experienced regularly, where relationships have no continuance and goodbye really means goodbye, where individuals live their lives wondering who they are and what they’re doing here....sounds a lot like this life, especially for the 99.9%+ of the world’s population who have lived their lives without knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Like someone pointed out, I do believe terrestrial and celestial beings can descend to this realm just as Christ did (saviors on mount Zion?) to serve the telestial beings that are here and help them progress.

If the telestial kingdom exists on countless earths like this one and individuals of that glory continue to be reborn (resurrected) on those earths until they repent, I would say that “surpasses all understanding.” Frankly, the whole concept of MMP surpasses the understanding of many, even on this forum Perhaps just a different way to interpret D&C 76. I know some here disagree that individuals can have more than one life to get their act together based on what Alma teaches, but to me “endless torment” could mean being born over...and over...and over again until they learn what they need to learn and choose to believe on “the name of Christ” and repent and be “saved” from their awful state of death (over...and over...and over) and hell (where we are now).

As for the belief that we would commit suicide to get to the telestial kingdom, I would actually put that in the bucket of complete false doctrine. Here’s the original quote that the belief seems to be based off of:

“Br. Woodruff spoke. . . . He refered to a saying of Joseph Smith which he heard him utter (like this) That if the People knew what was behind the vail, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there, but the Lord in his wisdom had implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their creator. (Diary of Charles Lowell Walker”

So even this third hand account of what JS taught mentions nothing of the telestial kingdom, just life beyond the veil. Here’s a good little article on the topic and the possible evolution of the (what I personally think is an erroneous) belief: https://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/telestial- ... get-there/

Edit: just another thought on telestial kingdom vs. life beyond the veil...perhaps the veil is over our minds until we exit the cycle of the telestial world(s), making “life beyond the veil” the terrestrial and celestial only. Or...if you think of the temple, the celestial is the only kingdom on the other side of the veil, which, of course, is glorious.

[Durzan]

This world is a telestial world. What are your thoughts on the idea that the telestial kingdom is this mortal life? That those who inherit the telestial kingdom receive another mortality in another telestial world continuing their probation.

This would make sense if there is progression between kingdoms.

2 Nephi
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

Yep, this is what I think. This came to me when I was imagining what a telestial hell would look like, abd I realized it would be a place where murderers and rapists and child molesters and liars roam free, where immorality is celebrated, where fear and emotional and physical pain is experienced regularly, where relationships have no continuance and goodbye really means goodbye, where individuals live their lives wondering who they are and what they’re doing here....sounds a lot like this life, especially for the 99.9%+ of the world’s population who have lived their lives without knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Like someone pointed out, I do believe terrestrial and celestial beings can descend to this realm just as Christ did (saviors on mount Zion?) to serve the telestial beings that are here and help them progress.

If the telestial kingdom exists on countless earths like this one and individuals of that glory continue to be reborn (resurrected) on those earths until they repent, I would say that “surpasses all understanding.” Frankly, the whole concept of MMP surpasses the understanding of many, even on this forum Perhaps just a different way to interpret D&C 76. I know some here disagree that individuals can have more than one life to get their act together based on what Alma teaches, but to me “endless torment” could mean being born over...and over...and over again until they learn what they need to learn and choose to believe on “the name of Christ” and repent and be “saved” from their awful state of death (over...and over...and over) and hell (where we are now).

As for the belief that we would commit suicide to get to the telestial kingdom, I would actually put that in the bucket of complete false doctrine. Here’s the original quote that the belief seems to be based off of:

“Br. Woodruff spoke. . . . He refered to a saying of Joseph Smith which he heard him utter (like this) That if the People knew what was behind the vail, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there, but the Lord in his wisdom had implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their creator. (Diary of Charles Lowell Walker”

So even this third hand account of what JS taught mentions nothing of the telestial kingdom, just life beyond the veil. Here’s a good little article on the topic and the possible evolution of the (what I personally think is an erroneous) belief: https://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/telestial- ... get-there/

If thats the case, then Bhuddism contains far more truth than what many would be willing to admit.

[Davka]

This world is a telestial world. What are your thoughts on the idea that the telestial kingdom is this mortal life? That those who inherit the telestial kingdom receive another mortality in another telestial world continuing their probation.

This would make sense if there is progression between kingdoms.

2 Nephi
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

Yep, this is what I think. This came to me when I was imagining what a telestial hell would look like, abd I realized it would be a place where murderers and rapists and child molesters and liars roam free, where immorality is celebrated, where fear and emotional and physical pain is experienced regularly, where relationships have no continuance and goodbye really means goodbye, where individuals live their lives wondering who they are and what they’re doing here....sounds a lot like this life, especially for the 99.9%+ of the world’s population who have lived their lives without knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Like someone pointed out, I do believe terrestrial and celestial beings can descend to this realm just as Christ did (saviors on mount Zion?) to serve the telestial beings that are here and help them progress.

If the telestial kingdom exists on countless earths like this one and individuals of that glory continue to be reborn (resurrected) on those earths until they repent, I would say that “surpasses all understanding.” Frankly, the whole concept of MMP surpasses the understanding of many, even on this forum Perhaps just a different way to interpret D&C 76. I know some here disagree that individuals can have more than one life to get their act together based on what Alma teaches, but to me “endless torment” could mean being born over...and over...and over again until they learn what they need to learn and choose to believe on “the name of Christ” and repent and be “saved” from their awful state of death (over...and over...and over) and hell (where we are now).

As for the belief that we would commit suicide to get to the telestial kingdom, I would actually put that in the bucket of complete false doctrine. Here’s the original quote that the belief seems to be based off of:

“Br. Woodruff spoke. . . . He refered to a saying of Joseph Smith which he heard him utter (like this) That if the People knew what was behind the vail, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there, but the Lord in his wisdom had implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their creator. (Diary of Charles Lowell Walker”

So even this third hand account of what JS taught mentions nothing of the telestial kingdom, just life beyond the veil. Here’s a good little article on the topic and the possible evolution of the (what I personally think is an erroneous) belief: https://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/telestial- ... get-there/

If thats the case, then Bhuddism contains far more truth than what many would be willing to admit.

There’s truth to be found in pretty much all religious traditions. “All truth can be circumscribed into one great whole.”

Where did the eastern traditions come up with the idea of reincarnation and karma, anyway?

Could be the case that they got the reincarnation part sorta right, but the way to exit the cycle, which can only happen through faith on the *name* of Christ, wrong. Isn’t that a funny way to put it, by the way? Yes, we have faith in Jesus Christ himself In the here and now, he is *our* God and Savior, but in future rounds of mortality, it will be a different person filling the office of Christ who will be doing the saving, but he will bear the same name.

Anyway, I know most here disagree with me, but this is what I have come to understand, although I very well could be wrong.

[Alaris]

This world is a telestial world. What are your thoughts on the idea that the telestial kingdom is this mortal life? That those who inherit the telestial kingdom receive another mortality in another telestial world continuing their probation.

This would make sense if there is progression between kingdoms.

2 Nephi
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

Yep, this is what I think. This came to me when I was imagining what a telestial hell would look like, abd I realized it would be a place where murderers and rapists and child molesters and liars roam free, where immorality is celebrated, where fear and emotional and physical pain is experienced regularly, where relationships have no continuance and goodbye really means goodbye, where individuals live their lives wondering who they are and what they’re doing here....sounds a lot like this life, especially for the 99.9%+ of the world’s population who have lived their lives without knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Like someone pointed out, I do believe terrestrial and celestial beings can descend to this realm just as Christ did (saviors on mount Zion?) to serve the telestial beings that are here and help them progress.

If the telestial kingdom exists on countless earths like this one and individuals of that glory continue to be reborn (resurrected) on those earths until they repent, I would say that “surpasses all understanding.” Frankly, the whole concept of MMP surpasses the understanding of many, even on this forum Perhaps just a different way to interpret D&C 76. I know some here disagree that individuals can have more than one life to get their act together based on what Alma teaches, but to me “endless torment” could mean being born over...and over...and over again until they learn what they need to learn and choose to believe on “the name of Christ” and repent and be “saved” from their awful state of death (over...and over...and over) and hell (where we are now).

As for the belief that we would commit suicide to get to the telestial kingdom, I would actually put that in the bucket of complete false doctrine. Here’s the original quote that the belief seems to be based off of:

“Br. Woodruff spoke. . . . He refered to a saying of Joseph Smith which he heard him utter (like this) That if the People knew what was behind the vail, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there, but the Lord in his wisdom had implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their creator. (Diary of Charles Lowell Walker”

So even this third hand account of what JS taught mentions nothing of the telestial kingdom, just life beyond the veil. Here’s a good little article on the topic and the possible evolution of the (what I personally think is an erroneous) belief: https://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/telestial- ... get-there/

If thats the case, then Bhuddism contains far more truth than what many would be willing to admit.

There’s truth to be found in pretty much all religious traditions. “All truth can be circumscribed into one great whole.”

Where did the eastern traditions come up with the idea of reincarnation and karma, anyway?

Could be the case that they got the reincarnation part sorta right, but the way to exit the cycle, which can only happen through faith on the *name* of Christ, wrong. Isn’t that a funny way to put it, by the way? Yes, we have faith in Jesus Christ himself In the here and now, he is *our* God and Savior, but in future rounds of mortality, it will be a different person filling the office of Christ who will be doing the saving, but he will bear the same name.

Anyway, I know most here disagree with me, but this is what I have come to understand, although I very well could be wrong.

Wow - I've been thinking about this a lot lately (bolded above.) The angel bears the ineffable name of the Lord in Exodus 23 (for my name is in him) - something both Jews and Christians alike seem to discuss more than we do, yet we have so much more revelation that underscores this important fact. What does it mean to bear the name of another?

Baptism points to the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Is that one name or three? Listen to how Nephi words this process you speak of in receiving Jesus and how it fits:

2 Nephi 31:11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.

Which Father? Which "Beloved" (David = Beloved) Son? This is why titles or roles are used so often in these scriptures. The Davidic Covenant: "I will be his father and he shall be my son." The Beloved Covenant. This is how one becomes a Beloved Son.

12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

Can we substitute the word "baptism" with resurrection? He that is resurrected in my name, to him the Father will give the Holy Ghost. The baptismal prayer points to the continuance. It's no great secret that Jesus inherits all the Father hath. But can there be a Father without a Son? What's in a name?

If Abraham reasoned thus—If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.~ TPJS 373

My wife found part of this quote while researching "firstborn" - and the partial quote was used in a document on BYU.edu about that very topic. The paragraph was confusing as I thought the entire paragraph was a quote from Joseph Smith. In that paragraph the author quotes the bit about "was there ever a father without first being a son" and then goes on to talk about how Jesus was the first created spirit of Elohim. I'm reading that thinking it was still part of the quote and thought, "No way on Earth or in Heaven did Joseph Smith say such a thing!" And, of course, I discovered the beginning of said paragraph was the only portion of the above quote. Of course, Joseph Smith isn't teaching that a Son is created within the same eternal round but trying to get the saints to understand this pattern of continuance. "I will be his father, and he will be my son."

OK I don't mean to hijack here - back to 2 Nephi 31. This next portion is what we referred to as "the beast" as it was required for all missionaries to memorize on my mission:

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

The remission of sins comes by the Holy Ghost. Yom Kippur. Receiving the Holy Ghost is continuance - it is resurrection - it is receiving the promises made to you as you go from your current capacity to a higher one. Eternal continuance. Eternal progression.

We all take "endure to the end" to mean this one life. Yet, Joseph Smith taught of going from smaller capacities to greater, from grace to grace, and from exaltation to exaltation until we are able to dwell in everlasting burnings the same as all Gods who have come before. This is eternal life. The same path. Back in verse 12: "follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do." Jesus said to His Apostles they would do His works and greater because He goes to the Father (to His next, higher capacity = even greater works)

Verse 21 is the ineffable name. The name of the Father, and of the Son, and of The Holy Ghost - which is one God - without end. Why without end? For these offices are always filled as we ascend until we fill them ourselves. Then, we do the greater works Jesus spoke of. It's beyond plain.

"There are some important things concerning the office of the Messiah in the organization of the world. which I will speak of hereafter, May God Almighty bless you and pour out His Spirit upon you, is the prayer of your unworthy servant. Amen. ~ Joseph Smith"

[Kingdom of ZION]

This world is a telestial world. What are your thoughts on the idea that the telestial kingdom is this mortal life? That those who inherit the telestial kingdom receive another mortality in another telestial world continuing their probation.

This would make sense if there is progression between kingdoms.

2 Nephi
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

Yep, this is what I think. This came to me when I was imagining what a telestial hell would look like, abd I realized it would be a place where murderers and rapists and child molesters and liars roam free, where immorality is celebrated, where fear and emotional and physical pain is experienced regularly, where relationships have no continuance and goodbye really means goodbye, where individuals live their lives wondering who they are and what they’re doing here....sounds a lot like this life, especially for the 99.9%+ of the world’s population who have lived their lives without knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Like someone pointed out, I do believe terrestrial and celestial beings can descend to this realm just as Christ did (saviors on mount Zion?) to serve the telestial beings that are here and help them progress.

If the telestial kingdom exists on countless earths like this one and individuals of that glory continue to be reborn (resurrected) on those earths until they repent, I would say that “surpasses all understanding.” Frankly, the whole concept of MMP surpasses the understanding of many, even on this forum Perhaps just a different way to interpret D&C 76. I know some here disagree that individuals can have more than one life to get their act together based on what Alma teaches, but to me “endless torment” could mean being born over...and over...and over again until they learn what they need to learn and choose to believe on “the name of Christ” and repent and be “saved” from their awful state of death (over...and over...and over) and hell (where we are now).

As for the belief that we would commit suicide to get to the telestial kingdom, I would actually put that in the bucket of complete false doctrine. Here’s the original quote that the belief seems to be based off of:

“Br. Woodruff spoke. . . . He refered to a saying of Joseph Smith which he heard him utter (like this) That if the People knew what was behind the vail, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there, but the Lord in his wisdom had implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their creator. (Diary of Charles Lowell Walker”

So even this third hand account of what JS taught mentions nothing of the telestial kingdom, just life beyond the veil. Here’s a good little article on the topic and the possible evolution of the (what I personally think is an erroneous) belief: https://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/telestial- ... get-there/

Edit: just another thought on telestial kingdom vs. life beyond the veil...perhaps the veil is over our minds until we exit the cycle of the telestial world(s), making “life beyond the veil” the terrestrial and celestial only. Or...if you think of the temple, the celestial is the only kingdom on the other side of the veil, which, of course, is glorious.

I do not see sinners sent to hell, continuing to sin. When time is no longer, I see Terrestrial Immortal Beings who sired Telestial Beings with an immortal body, save their garments are not clean and the stain of sins remain.

I have not had time to research who said, if it were possible, one would kill themselves to get there. If one does kill themselves, that is exactly the kingdom where they will go... but first into spirit prison for a Millennium at least. That is not quite getting there even one day faster then dying of old age in ones sins.

[Alexander]

Yep, this is what I think. This came to me when I was imagining what a telestial hell would look like, abd I realized it would be a place where murderers and rapists and child molesters and liars roam free, where immorality is celebrated, where fear and emotional and physical pain is experienced regularly, where relationships have no continuance and goodbye really means goodbye, where individuals live their lives wondering who they are and what they’re doing here....sounds a lot like this life, especially for the 99.9%+ of the world’s population who have lived their lives without knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Like someone pointed out, I do believe terrestrial and celestial beings can descend to this realm just as Christ did (saviors on mount Zion?) to serve the telestial beings that are here and help them progress.

If the telestial kingdom exists on countless earths like this one and individuals of that glory continue to be reborn (resurrected) on those earths until they repent, I would say that “surpasses all understanding.” Frankly, the whole concept of MMP surpasses the understanding of many, even on this forum Perhaps just a different way to interpret D&C 76. I know some here disagree that individuals can have more than one life to get their act together based on what Alma teaches, but to me “endless torment” could mean being born over...and over...and over again until they learn what they need to learn and choose to believe on “the name of Christ” and repent and be “saved” from their awful state of death (over...and over...and over) and hell (where we are now).

As for the belief that we would commit suicide to get to the telestial kingdom, I would actually put that in the bucket of complete false doctrine. Here’s the original quote that the belief seems to be based off of:

“Br. Woodruff spoke. . . . He refered to a saying of Joseph Smith which he heard him utter (like this) That if the People knew what was behind the vail, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there, but the Lord in his wisdom had implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their creator. (Diary of Charles Lowell Walker”

So even this third hand account of what JS taught mentions nothing of the telestial kingdom, just life beyond the veil. Here’s a good little article on the topic and the possible evolution of the (what I personally think is an erroneous) belief: https://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/telestial- ... get-there/

If thats the case, then Bhuddism contains far more truth than what many would be willing to admit.

There’s truth to be found in pretty much all religious traditions. “All truth can be circumscribed into one great whole.”

Where did the eastern traditions come up with the idea of reincarnation and karma, anyway?

Could be the case that they got the reincarnation part sorta right, but the way to exit the cycle, which can only happen through faith on the *name* of Christ, wrong. Isn’t that a funny way to put it, by the way? Yes, we have faith in Jesus Christ himself In the here and now, he is *our* God and Savior, but in future rounds of mortality, it will be a different person filling the office of Christ who will be doing the saving, but he will bear the same name.

Anyway, I know most here disagree with me, but this is what I have come to understand, although I very well could be wrong.

Wow - I've been thinking about this a lot lately (bolded above.) The angel bears the ineffable name of the Lord in Exodus 23 (for my name is in him) - something both Jews and Christians alike seem to discuss more than we do, yet we have so much more revelation that underscores this important fact. What does it mean to bear the name of another?

Baptism points to the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Is that one name or three? Listen to how Nephi words this process you speak of in receiving Jesus and how it fits:

2 Nephi 31:11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.

Which Father? Which "Beloved" (David = Beloved) Son? This is why titles or roles are used so often in these scriptures. The Davidic Covenant: "I will be his father and he shall be my son." The Beloved Covenant. This is how one becomes a Beloved Son.

12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

Can we substitute the word "baptism" with resurrection? He that is resurrected in my name, to him the Father will give the Holy Ghost. The baptismal prayer points to the continuance. It's no great secret that Jesus inherits all the Father hath. But can there be a Father without a Son? What's in a name?

If Abraham reasoned thus—If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.~ TPJS 373

My wife found part of this quote while researching "firstborn" - and the partial quote was used in a document on BYU.edu about that very topic. The paragraph was confusing as I thought the entire paragraph was a quote from Joseph Smith. In that paragraph the author quotes the bit about "was there ever a father without first being a son" and then goes on to talk about how Jesus was the first created spirit of Elohim. I'm reading that thinking it was still part of the quote and thought, "No way on Earth or in Heaven did Joseph Smith say such a thing!" And, of course, I discovered the beginning of said paragraph was the only portion of the above quote. Of course, Joseph Smith isn't teaching that a Son is created within the same eternal round but trying to get the saints to understand this pattern of continuance. "I will be his father, and he will be my son."

OK I don't mean to hijack here - back to 2 Nephi 31. This next portion is what we referred to as "the beast" as it was required for all missionaries to memorize on my mission:

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

The remission of sins comes by the Holy Ghost. Yom Kippur. Receiving the Holy Ghost is continuance - it is resurrection - it is receiving the promises made to you as you go from your current capacity to a higher one. Eternal continuance. Eternal progression.

We all take "endure to the end" to mean this one life. Yet, Joseph Smith taught of going from smaller capacities to greater, from grace to grace, and from exaltation to exaltation until we are able to dwell in everlasting burnings the same as all Gods who have come before. This is eternal life. The same path. Back in verse 12: "follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do." Jesus said to His Apostles they would do His works and greater because He goes to the Father (to His next, higher capacity = even greater works)

Verse 21 is the ineffable name. The name of the Father, and of the Son, and of The Holy Ghost - which is one God - without end. Why without end? For these offices are always filled as we ascend until we fill them ourselves. Then, we do the greater works Jesus spoke of. It's beyond plain.

"There are some important things concerning the office of the Messiah in the organization of the world. which I will speak of hereafter, May God Almighty bless you and pour out His Spirit upon you, is the prayer of your unworthy servant. Amen. ~ Joseph Smith"

to be born again and receive the baptism of sprit is resurrection. Your spirit is no longer "dead" (separated from god).

[larsenb]

I frankly have an issue with people pre-empting names of well-known writers as their screen names. I think you should cease and desist on this.

Ok, I’m sorry my name created an issue. My username is specifically based off of the movie Fight Club. Tyler is a symbol of everything the narrator was afraid to do, and everything the narrator wants to be. I thought it was appropriate, but perhaps not? I also don’t think your comment has anything to do with this discussion on the telestial kingdom. Perhaps you could have messaged me personally.

Apologies. That was a bit snarky. But Tyler Duden was the name of a long-time 'columnist' on ZeroHedge.com, whom I've been reading for years and I thought was his real name. Doing a search on the name revealed his real name is apparently "Daniel Ivandjiiski".

Your usage tweaked my sense that screen names shouldn't use names of real persons. Tripped up by my false assumptions again. Probably won't be the last time.

[Alexander]

I frankly have an issue with people pre-empting names of well-known writers as their screen names. I think you should cease and desist on this.

Ok, I’m sorry my name created an issue. My username is specifically based off of the movie Fight Club. Tyler is a symbol of everything the narrator was afraid to do, and everything the narrator wants to be. I thought it was appropriate, but perhaps not? I also don’t think your comment has anything to do with this discussion on the telestial kingdom. Perhaps you could have messaged me personally.

Apologies. That was a bit snarky. But Tyler Duden was the name of a long-time 'columnist' on ZeroHedge.com, whom I've been reading for years and I thought was his real name. Doing a search on the name revealed his real name is apparently "Daniel Ivandjiiski".

Your usage tweaked my sense that screen names shouldn't use names of real persons. Tripped up by my false assumptions again. Probably won't be the last time.

You’re good brother. I looked up Tyler Durden and saw the connection of the name to zero hedge so I understand now

[mhewett]

This world is a telestial world. What are your thoughts on the idea that the telestial kingdom is this mortal life? That those who inherit the telestial kingdom receive another mortality in another telestial world continuing their probation.

This would make sense if there is progression between kingdoms.

2 Nephi
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

Hi Tyler,

to me the answer is simple. There have been so many concepts told to you in answer to your question which are not based on the Gospel. I haven't been on LDSFF for a couple of years and I don't know Kingdom of Zion or whether he/she is from some offshoot from the church like Denver Snuffers group or some other group but he/she is presenting things that are not taught in the church. Whether those things should be taught in the church is not for any of us to say as the prophet is the only one that can make that call. Now whether Kingdom of Zion wants to say the mormons have lost their way or whatever, that might be his/her opinion but please stick to the scriptures, the prophets and keep it simple. Too many people want to go off into 'deep doctrine', only to get confused and led right away from the Church.

Now to your answer. I have heard people say this world is a telestial world but as was pointed out from D&C 76, And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding.
This implies that this world is not the same as that world in fact not as good as the telestial world that awaits liars, murderers, etc. So while we are taught about 3 degrees of glory and outer darkness, it becomes more obvious, at least to me, where this world fits into the picture and that is that we are somewhere between the telestial glory and outer darkness whether physically or spiritually. This world is, I guess a type of glory but seeing what happens here, I would hope that the telestial world is better. I would hate to end up somewhere worse. Many people get a taste of outer darkness on this earth and some get to taste a bit of heaven. This world might be the Telestial world but when this world receives it paradisaical glory, then perhaps it will be the Telestial world that was seen in vision in D&C.

As for another probation, there is no basis for that as we will suffer for the sins we do not repent of and are not forgiven of. Whether or not we can progress from kingdom to kingdom has not been revealed so I guess, don't count on it. I hope its true but we'll have to wait and see. Better to live as if it is not true, then we'll be prepared.

[Sarah]

Yep, this is what I think. This came to me when I was imagining what a telestial hell would look like, abd I realized it would be a place where murderers and rapists and child molesters and liars roam free, where immorality is celebrated, where fear and emotional and physical pain is experienced regularly, where relationships have no continuance and goodbye really means goodbye, where individuals live their lives wondering who they are and what they’re doing here....sounds a lot like this life, especially for the 99.9%+ of the world’s population who have lived their lives without knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Like someone pointed out, I do believe terrestrial and celestial beings can descend to this realm just as Christ did (saviors on mount Zion?) to serve the telestial beings that are here and help them progress.

If the telestial kingdom exists on countless earths like this one and individuals of that glory continue to be reborn (resurrected) on those earths until they repent, I would say that “surpasses all understanding.” Frankly, the whole concept of MMP surpasses the understanding of many, even on this forum Perhaps just a different way to interpret D&C 76. I know some here disagree that individuals can have more than one life to get their act together based on what Alma teaches, but to me “endless torment” could mean being born over...and over...and over again until they learn what they need to learn and choose to believe on “the name of Christ” and repent and be “saved” from their awful state of death (over...and over...and over) and hell (where we are now).

As for the belief that we would commit suicide to get to the telestial kingdom, I would actually put that in the bucket of complete false doctrine. Here’s the original quote that the belief seems to be based off of:

“Br. Woodruff spoke. . . . He refered to a saying of Joseph Smith which he heard him utter (like this) That if the People knew what was behind the vail, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there, but the Lord in his wisdom had implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their creator. (Diary of Charles Lowell Walker”

So even this third hand account of what JS taught mentions nothing of the telestial kingdom, just life beyond the veil. Here’s a good little article on the topic and the possible evolution of the (what I personally think is an erroneous) belief: https://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/telestial- ... get-there/

If thats the case, then Bhuddism contains far more truth than what many would be willing to admit.

There’s truth to be found in pretty much all religious traditions. “All truth can be circumscribed into one great whole.”

Where did the eastern traditions come up with the idea of reincarnation and karma, anyway?

Could be the case that they got the reincarnation part sorta right, but the way to exit the cycle, which can only happen through faith on the *name* of Christ, wrong. Isn’t that a funny way to put it, by the way? Yes, we have faith in Jesus Christ himself In the here and now, he is *our* God and Savior, but in future rounds of mortality, it will be a different person filling the office of Christ who will be doing the saving, but he will bear the same name.

Anyway, I know most here disagree with me, but this is what I have come to understand, although I very well could be wrong.

Wow - I've been thinking about this a lot lately (bolded above.) The angel bears the ineffable name of the Lord in Exodus 23 (for my name is in him) - something both Jews and Christians alike seem to discuss more than we do, yet we have so much more revelation that underscores this important fact. What does it mean to bear the name of another?

Baptism points to the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Is that one name or three? Listen to how Nephi words this process you speak of in receiving Jesus and how it fits:

2 Nephi 31:11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.

Which Father? Which "Beloved" (David = Beloved) Son? This is why titles or roles are used so often in these scriptures. The Davidic Covenant: "I will be his father and he shall be my son." The Beloved Covenant. This is how one becomes a Beloved Son.

12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

Can we substitute the word "baptism" with resurrection? He that is resurrected in my name, to him the Father will give the Holy Ghost. The baptismal prayer points to the continuance. It's no great secret that Jesus inherits all the Father hath. But can there be a Father without a Son? What's in a name?

If Abraham reasoned thus—If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.~ TPJS 373

My wife found part of this quote while researching "firstborn" - and the partial quote was used in a document on BYU.edu about that very topic. The paragraph was confusing as I thought the entire paragraph was a quote from Joseph Smith. In that paragraph the author quotes the bit about "was there ever a father without first being a son" and then goes on to talk about how Jesus was the first created spirit of Elohim. I'm reading that thinking it was still part of the quote and thought, "No way on Earth or in Heaven did Joseph Smith say such a thing!" And, of course, I discovered the beginning of said paragraph was the only portion of the above quote. Of course, Joseph Smith isn't teaching that a Son is created within the same eternal round but trying to get the saints to understand this pattern of continuance. "I will be his father, and he will be my son."

OK I don't mean to hijack here - back to 2 Nephi 31. This next portion is what we referred to as "the beast" as it was required for all missionaries to memorize on my mission:

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

The remission of sins comes by the Holy Ghost. Yom Kippur. Receiving the Holy Ghost is continuance - it is resurrection - it is receiving the promises made to you as you go from your current capacity to a higher one. Eternal continuance. Eternal progression.

We all take "endure to the end" to mean this one life. Yet, Joseph Smith taught of going from smaller capacities to greater, from grace to grace, and from exaltation to exaltation until we are able to dwell in everlasting burnings the same as all Gods who have come before. This is eternal life. The same path. Back in verse 12: "follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do." Jesus said to His Apostles they would do His works and greater because He goes to the Father (to His next, higher capacity = even greater works)

Verse 21 is the ineffable name. The name of the Father, and of the Son, and of The Holy Ghost - which is one God - without end. Why without end? For these offices are always filled as we ascend until we fill them ourselves. Then, we do the greater works Jesus spoke of. It's beyond plain.

"There are some important things concerning the office of the Messiah in the organization of the world. which I will speak of hereafter, May God Almighty bless you and pour out His Spirit upon you, is the prayer of your unworthy servant. Amen. ~ Joseph Smith"

Alaris, you mentioned that your wife was researching the word firstborn, and I'm curious if she gained any insights worth sharing. I've been impressed recently that I need to learn about the purpose of this principle, of having a firstborn inheritance. Any insights you have would be appreciated

[Alexander]

This world is a telestial world. What are your thoughts on the idea that the telestial kingdom is this mortal life? That those who inherit the telestial kingdom receive another mortality in another telestial world continuing their probation.

This would make sense if there is progression between kingdoms.

2 Nephi
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

Hi Tyler,

to me the answer is simple. There have been so many concepts told to you in answer to your question which are not based on the Gospel. I haven't been on LDSFF for a couple of years and I don't know Kingdom of Zion or whether he/she is from some offshoot from the church like Denver Snuffers group or some other group but he/she is presenting things that are not taught in the church. Whether those things should be taught in the church is not for any of us to say as the prophet is the only one that can make that call. Now whether Kingdom of Zion wants to say the mormons have lost their way or whatever, that might be his/her opinion but please stick to the scriptures, the prophets and keep it simple. Too many people want to go off into 'deep doctrine', only to get confused and led right away from the Church.

Now to your answer. I have heard people say this world is a telestial world but as was pointed out from D&C 76, And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding.
This implies that this world is not the same as that world in fact not as good as the telestial world that awaits liars, murderers, etc. So while we are taught about 3 degrees of glory and outer darkness, it becomes more obvious, at least to me, where this world fits into the picture and that is that we are somewhere between the telestial glory and outer darkness whether physically or spiritually. This world is, I guess a type of glory but seeing what happens here, I would hope that the telestial world is better. I would hate to end up somewhere worse. Many people get a taste of outer darkness on this earth and some get to taste a bit of heaven. This world might be the Telestial world but when this world receives it paradisaical glory, then perhaps it will be the Telestial world that was seen in vision in D&C.

As for another probation, there is no basis for that as we will suffer for the sins we do not repent of and are not forgiven of. Whether or not we can progress from kingdom to kingdom has not been revealed so I guess, don't count on it. I hope its true but we'll have to wait and see. Better to live as if it is not true, then we'll be prepared.

To me, I don’t see how it isn’t of telestial glory if it is called a telestial earth. Each kingdom has things of its own glory that are able to reside there. Each isn’t a singular place, but rather a glory that is made up of all things that are the same glory (celestial of celestial etc.). The earth will be changed and receive it’s paradisical glory. I’m not so sure that glory will be telestial. It would most likely be terrestrial. We are told in DandC that terrestrial through the ministration of celestial. The earth will receive it’s baptism of fire/spirit when the city of Enoch comes back. The baptism of fire/spirit is a resurrection of your spirit to a terrestrial glory. It seems more likely the earth will receive terrestrial glory rather than telestial.

Anyone who searches in faith with understand the mysteries when they are ready for them. But just because they come at their own time, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t search for them though. Anyways, the main point of this thread was to see some different perspectives from others. I’ll come to the truth the more I come to the lord.

Alma 12
9 ​And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to ​​​know​ the ​​​mysteries​ of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart ​​​only​ according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

[nightlight]

Lol yea....you guys who believe in MMP just surpass the understanding of those who don't
Bwhahahahjahaj

[Alexander]

Lol yea....you guys who believe in MMP just surpass the understanding of those who don't
Bwhahahahjahaj

I wasn’t trying to brag or make myself more “righteous” or more “knowledgeable” than others. Everyone is on their different journeys. I’m a mortal sinner, seeking for understanding and forgiveness and salvation, and invite everyone else to do the same. I believe anyone who comes unto God can understand the mysteries

[Alaris]

Alaris, you mentioned that your wife was researching the word firstborn, and I'm curious if she gained any insights worth sharing. I've been impressed recently that I need to learn about the purpose of this principle, of having a firstborn inheritance. Any insights you have would be appreciated

Thanks for the inquiry Sarah

My wife and I are sometimes on opposite schedules, so I hope I can sit down with her tomorrow. Do you mind sharing what you've learned so far or maybe some more specifics on what you're looking for?

[Sarah]

I've learned a few things, focusing on rights and responsibilities. But I'm curious why the plan focuses on the concept of birth order as an important attribute of Christ for example. So my question is, if you were a father such as Jacob or one living in ancient Israel, and you had many sons, and the younger sons came to you asking why your inheritance couldn't be divided equally among all of them rather than the eldest receiving all or a double portion, what would you say to your younger sons?

[Zathura]

This world is a telestial world. What are your thoughts on the idea that the telestial kingdom is this mortal life? That those who inherit the telestial kingdom receive another mortality in another telestial world continuing their probation.

This would make sense if there is progression between kingdoms.

2 Nephi
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

I've often thought of this as well . Perhaps "surpasses all understanding" might not mean what it appears to mean?

Could one say that the earth we live on surpasses all understanding? In some contexts, from certain perspectives I think you could say yes. In which case, that scripture would no longer invalidate the idea youve brought up.

[Zathura]

It has long been a standard belief in the church that the earth was changed from a terrestrial state to a telestial state during the fall.

What difference is there from a "telestial kingdom" and this Earth we live in that's in a telestial state?

We know that liars and murderers will be in the telestial kingdom. Sounds like earth to me.

I don't know what that would say about progression between kingdoms though . I created a thread with some church teachings on progression between kingdoms :


viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52385

I don't have an opinion on the matter... Yet, but there's plenty of stuff from church leadership that opens up the possibility

[Zathura]

I think it's clear that this belief was kinda sorta accepted as a possibility during the time period of 1850-1940 and from that point until now the belief has been that it's not a possibility.