The Church Was NOT Condemned in D&C 84?

[Zathura]

This section is often cited as proof that the church is/was fallen.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

After re-reading it over and over the past few days, I think there’s room for a different understanding of what happened .

60 Verily, verily, I say unto you who now hear my words, which are my voice, blessed are ye inasmuch as you receive these things;
61 For I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your minds in solemnity and the spirit of prayer, in bearing testimony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you.
62 Therefore, go ye into all the world; and unto whatsoever place ye cannot go ye shall send, that the testimony may go from you into all the world unto every creature.
63 And as I said unto mine apostles, even so I say unto you, for you are mine apostles, even God’s high priests; ye are they whom my Father hath given me; ye are my friends;

The Lord directly says he will go ahead and forgive the Elders he was just speaking to.

When viewed in context of the entire section, the Lord is pleased with at least a portion of the church, as it contains another portion that I myself have quoted a lot wherein the Lord gives the priesthood to the Elders he is addressing.

Thoughts?

[LDS Watchman]

This section is often cited as proof that the church is/was fallen.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

After re-reading it over and over the past few days, I think there’s room for a different understanding of what happened .

60 Verily, verily, I say unto you who now hear my words, which are my voice, blessed are ye inasmuch as you receive these things;
61 For I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your minds in solemnity and the spirit of prayer, in bearing testimony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you.
62 Therefore, go ye into all the world; and unto whatsoever place ye cannot go ye shall send, that the testimony may go from you into all the world unto every creature.
63 And as I said unto mine apostles, even so I say unto you, for you are mine apostles, even God’s high priests; ye are they whom my Father hath given me; ye are my friends;

The Lord directly says he will go ahead and forgive the Elders he was just speaking to.

When viewed in context of the entire section, the Lord is pleased with at least a portion of the church, as it contains another portion that I myself have quoted a lot wherein the Lord gives the priesthood to the Elders he is addressing.

Thoughts?

Your interpretation is correct. The whole church (meaning the entire membership) was not put under condemnation at that time. Perhaps collectively, but not individually.

My understanding is that the phrase "the children of Zion" in the sense it is used in this revelation, only refers to those Saints collectively, not individually, living in Missouri (land of Zion) at that time.

This is consistent with other scriptures that state that the Saints in Missouri had collectively become as salt that had lost its savor and would be trodden under foot.

This ominous prophecy was fulfilled in 1838 with the extermination order.

Question is if there is also a last days application for us in the Church today. I believe there is.

[Zathura]

This section is often cited as proof that the church is/was fallen.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

After re-reading it over and over the past few days, I think there’s room for a different understanding of what happened .

60 Verily, verily, I say unto you who now hear my words, which are my voice, blessed are ye inasmuch as you receive these things;
61 For I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your minds in solemnity and the spirit of prayer, in bearing testimony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you.
62 Therefore, go ye into all the world; and unto whatsoever place ye cannot go ye shall send, that the testimony may go from you into all the world unto every creature.
63 And as I said unto mine apostles, even so I say unto you, for you are mine apostles, even God’s high priests; ye are they whom my Father hath given me; ye are my friends;

The Lord directly says he will go ahead and forgive the Elders he was just speaking to.

When viewed in context of the entire section, the Lord is pleased with at least a portion of the church, as it contains another portion that I myself have quoted a lot wherein the Lord gives the priesthood to the Elders he is addressing.

Thoughts?

Your interpretation is correct. The whole church (meaning the entire membership) was not put under condemnation at that time. Perhaps collectively, but not individually.

My understanding is that the phrase "the children of Zion" in the sense it is used in this revelation, only refers to those Saints collectively, not individually, living in Missouri (land of Zion) at that time.

This is consistent with other scriptures that state that the Saints in Missouri had collectively become as salt that had lost its savor and would be trodden under foot.

This ominous prophecy was fulfilled in 1838 with the extermination order.

Question is if there is also a last days application for us in the Church today. I believe there is.

Can you expound on your comment about the extermination order?

[marc]

v 60 is addressed to those who are hearing his voice, not the entire church as a whole. Those who heard his voice were blessed inasmuch as they received these things. I agree with Ezra Taft Benson and Dallin H. Oaks inasmuch as they declared over the pulpit that we as a "whole" church, "even all" are still under condemnation until we "all" stop treating lightly the things we have received and the former commandments. Now who can cite these "former commandments?" If you cannot, then how do you know we are no longer under condemnation contrary to Benson's and Oaks' own declarations? And if you can cite them, are you keeping them?

[lundbaek]

I have been under the impression that Ezra Taft Benson, as an apostle and later as president of the Church, considered the Church membership (generally speaking) under "condemnation" for some negligence in studying the Book of Mormon.

To me,the strongest evidence of that, as one might expect from me, is in what I perceive as a widespread complacency or ignorance toward our doctrinal imperative to preserve liberty, a secondary theme of the Book of Mormon.