Brigham: Good or Bad?

[Thinker]

Only Christ is good.

You raise a good point, except only God is GOoD.

• “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God...” - Christ speaking in Matthew 19:17

[LDS Watchman]

The most ironic thing about all of this, is that defenders of Brigham Young refuse to consider that he may have been wrong on so many things because that would mean that potentially he and others misguided the church, and yet, it seems half of these staunch defenders of Brigham have no problem claiming that modern Church leaders are misguiding the Church?

I'm missing the logic. It's a world breaking thought that maybe Presidents 2-6 misguided the church, but Presidents 6+ misleading us isn't a big deal?

It's beyond me how easily one can think that modern Church leaders are apostate false prophets and then freak out at the mention that Brigham might be wrong, claiming that such a belief would mean that Brigham might be an apostate false prophet. Such a possibility doesn't bother you in 2019.. but the possibility of that being true in 1850 bothers you? I just.. I don't get it. Beyond anything else, inconsistency bothers me.

Very easy to comprehend, BY, JT, WW, LS all knew Joseph Smith personally and studied under him and were taught by him. The BY you talk about and object to, is not the BY I've learned about. But that is your privilege. Your BY does not fit your "politically correct" idea of a prophet today. Brigham Young personally knew more about Joseph Smith and his doctrine and understood Joseph more than you ever will. Because IMO, you have rejected certain requisite gospel doctrines/tenets required to advance in the KofG. BY definitely made mistakes, like all men do, but what you call errors in doctrine, are not errors at all, but rather you have closed your mind to them along with many others.
I'll say it again, BY had more light in an hour than you and I and every single basher of his character will ever have in our lifetime. He was right on CPM, the priesthood ban, the Adam/God doctrine, Blood Atonement etc.
Go ahead make him an "offender for a word", you may not ever find out in this life or even the next, but BY died in the faith, faithful to God, faithful to Joseph, and faithful to the eternal truths of God. He was a man who did more for the cause of God than you and I ever will.
As far as today, look at our fruits, they are disturbing to say the least. We have strayed so far away from what Joseph revealed and taught it is almost unrecognizable. Although the BofM still stands, thank God.
BY was and is still a faithful servant of Jesus Christ, and all those that mock and belittle BY are simply doing the same thing to Jesus Christ Himself. If Jesus Christ was to come among us today, we would rail against Him also, because we hate His laws. And our fruits show it. Just like Jesus told His disciples, if they hated me, they will hate you. And so it is with BY, those that hate BY, also hate Jesus, because they both are "One", and preached the same gospel.
This should bring out some more frothing of the mouth....

The hatred of Brigham Young and the original doctrines of the church is great evidence that he was a true servant of God and that he taught the doctrine of Christ.

Joseph Smith said on a number of occasions that the apostate Christians would kill the Savior if he walked among them because the doctrines he taught would offend them.

The world has always hated Christ and his true disciples and always will. The fact that the church was persecuted so much in the early days and not anymore today shows how far we have fallen.

[Thinker]

... "hypocrisy." If he, being the Prophet Joseph Smith, practiced deception and failed in one point, he failed in all - unless repentance was made...

We cannot have it, both ways. We cannot advocate hypocrisy, nor condone it. I find it a mockery before God to hold up a person as the "head of a Dispensation" who is not genuine, through and through...

I also believe and there’s evidence to support that indeed Joseph Smith was a prophet - he saw a vision for better and led people to it. But that doesn’t mean he was perfect.

This has been a tough one for me - to ignore flaws in messengers. “What imperfection hates most is imperfection.” For years, I loved Stephen Covey’s books - like The Divine Center, and The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. And I admired him... until I discovered he cheated. It could have been rumor, but I think he admitted it. I sat watching him speak and thought, “This is all BS because it’s from a hypocrite!” Yet I’ve realized we all are hypocritical in some ways - because we all fall short of our ideals. It’s much easier to preach than to live it. One of the GA said something like, “Yes, it’s frustrating that we’re all so imperfect - but that’s all God had to work with.”

So, while I believe Joseph Smith tried to hide his polygamy and financial problems, I still believe he did good from which I and many have benefited. And Brigham Young also was a prophet in leading many to the west, but he definitely had his sins too.

[BruceRGilbert]

The battle belongs to God. He chooses the weak and despised things of the world to bring about His purposes. He will justify His servants in their actions, as He did with Joseph Smith, by preparing a way for his, Joseph's, escape. He had something in common with the author that you cited.

[ChooseTruth]

... "hypocrisy." If he, being the Prophet Joseph Smith, practiced deception and failed in one point, he failed in all - unless repentance was made...

We cannot have it, both ways. We cannot advocate hypocrisy, nor condone it. I find it a mockery before God to hold up a person as the "head of a Dispensation" who is not genuine, through and through...

I also believe and there’s evidence to support that indeed Joseph Smith was a prophet - he saw a vision for better and led people to it. But that doesn’t mean he was perfect.

This has been a tough one for me - to ignore flaws in messengers. “What imperfection hates most is imperfection.” For years, I loved Stephen Covey’s books - like The Divine Center, and The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. And I admired him... until I discovered he cheated. It could have been rumor, but I think he admitted it. I sat watching him speak and thought, “This is all BS because it’s from a hypocrite!” Yet I’ve realized we all are hypocritical in some ways - because we all fall short of our ideals. It’s much easier to preach than to live it. One of the GA said something like, “Yes, it’s frustrating that we’re all so imperfect - but that’s all God had to work with.”

So, while I believe Joseph Smith tried to hide his polygamy and financial problems, I still believe he did good from which I and many have benefited. And Brigham Young also was a prophet in leading many to the west, but he definitely had his sins too.

I believe this is the right approach. Church leaders and prophets are fallible people and prone to error - even huge mistakes. What is key are the central doctrines of salvation and exhaltation along with the ordinances and authority. That is the path that will lead to you becoming one with the Father and Son.

As they teach you directly, many of the words of prophets and the things we debate about become mere footnotes or meaningless temporal inconsistencies. Outside of the aforementioned core doctrines, the rest is ever changing and subject to the policy decisions of the church and its current leaders. Much of that is done in error in my opinion.

So, I don’t worry too much about the seemingly huge inconsistencies between different church leaders and the clear mistakes they make. I focus on the core doctrines that will bring me closer to Christ.

[BruceRGilbert]

The battle belongs to God. He chooses the weak and despised things of the world to bring about His purposes. He will justify His servants in their actions, as He did with Joseph Smith, by preparing a way for his, Joseph's, escape. He had something in common with the author that you cited, as do I.

[nightlight]

The most ironic thing about all of this, is that defenders of Brigham Young refuse to consider that he may have been wrong on so many things because that would mean that potentially he and others misguided the church, and yet, it seems half of these staunch defenders of Brigham have no problem claiming that modern Church leaders are misguiding the Church?

I'm missing the logic. It's a world breaking thought that maybe Presidents 2-6 misguided the church, but Presidents 6+ misleading us isn't a big deal?

It's beyond me how easily one can think that modern Church leaders are apostate false prophets and then freak out at the mention that Brigham might be wrong, claiming that such a belief would mean that Brigham might be an apostate false prophet. Such a possibility doesn't bother you in 2019.. but the possibility of that being true in 1850 bothers you? I just.. I don't get it. Beyond anything else, inconsistency bothers me.

Very easy to comprehend, BY, JT, WW, LS all knew Joseph Smith personally and studied under him and were taught by him. The BY you talk about and object to, is not the BY I've learned about. But that is your privilege. Your BY does not fit your "politically correct" idea of a prophet today. Brigham Young personally knew more about Joseph Smith and his doctrine and understood Joseph more than you ever will. Because IMO, you have rejected certain requisite gospel doctrines/tenets required to advance in the KofG. BY definitely made mistakes, like all men do, but what you call errors in doctrine, are not errors at all, but rather you have closed your mind to them along with many others.
I'll say it again, BY had more light in an hour than you and I and every single basher of his character will ever have in our lifetime. He was right on CPM, the priesthood ban, the Adam/God doctrine, Blood Atonement etc.
Go ahead make him an "offender for a word", you may not ever find out in this life or even the next, but BY died in the faith, faithful to God, faithful to Joseph, and faithful to the eternal truths of God. He was a man who did more for the cause of God than you and I ever will.
As far as today, look at our fruits, they are disturbing to say the least. We have strayed so far away from what Joseph revealed and taught it is almost unrecognizable. Although the BofM still stands, thank God.
BY was and is still a faithful servant of Jesus Christ, and all those that mock and belittle BY are simply doing the same thing to Jesus Christ Himself. If Jesus Christ was to come among us today, we would rail against Him also, because we hate His laws. And our fruits show it. Just like Jesus told His disciples, if they hated me, they will hate you. And so it is with BY, those that hate BY, also hate Jesus, because they both are "One", and preached the same gospel.
This should bring out some more frothing of the mouth....

Really,bro.....give me a break. BY saught to rule with an Old Testament fist

"Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them. You would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the Kingdom of God. I would at once do so, in such a case; and under the circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.... There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 108-109

“If you want to know what to do with a thief that you may find stealing, I say kill him on the spot, and never suffer him to commit another iniquity. I will prove by my works whether I can mete out justice to such persons, or not. I would consider it just as much my duty to do that, as to baptize a man for the remission of his sins.”
---------------------
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

[simpleton]

The most ironic thing about all of this, is that defenders of Brigham Young refuse to consider that he may have been wrong on so many things because that would mean that potentially he and others misguided the church, and yet, it seems half of these staunch defenders of Brigham have no problem claiming that modern Church leaders are misguiding the Church?

I'm missing the logic. It's a world breaking thought that maybe Presidents 2-6 misguided the church, but Presidents 6+ misleading us isn't a big deal?

It's beyond me how easily one can think that modern Church leaders are apostate false prophets and then freak out at the mention that Brigham might be wrong, claiming that such a belief would mean that Brigham might be an apostate false prophet. Such a possibility doesn't bother you in 2019.. but the possibility of that being true in 1850 bothers you? I just.. I don't get it. Beyond anything else, inconsistency bothers me.

Very easy to comprehend, BY, JT, WW, LS all knew Joseph Smith personally and studied under him and were taught by him. The BY you talk about and object to, is not the BY I've learned about. But that is your privilege. Your BY does not fit your "politically correct" idea of a prophet today. Brigham Young personally knew more about Joseph Smith and his doctrine and understood Joseph more than you ever will. Because IMO, you have rejected certain requisite gospel doctrines/tenets required to advance in the KofG. BY definitely made mistakes, like all men do, but what you call errors in doctrine, are not errors at all, but rather you have closed your mind to them along with many others.
I'll say it again, BY had more light in an hour than you and I and every single basher of his character will ever have in our lifetime. He was right on CPM, the priesthood ban, the Adam/God doctrine, Blood Atonement etc.
Go ahead make him an "offender for a word", you may not ever find out in this life or even the next, but BY died in the faith, faithful to God, faithful to Joseph, and faithful to the eternal truths of God. He was a man who did more for the cause of God than you and I ever will.
As far as today, look at our fruits, they are disturbing to say the least. We have strayed so far away from what Joseph revealed and taught it is almost unrecognizable. Although the BofM still stands, thank God.
BY was and is still a faithful servant of Jesus Christ, and all those that mock and belittle BY are simply doing the same thing to Jesus Christ Himself. If Jesus Christ was to come among us today, we would rail against Him also, because we hate His laws. And our fruits show it. Just like Jesus told His disciples, if they hated me, they will hate you. And so it is with BY, those that hate BY, also hate Jesus, because they both are "One", and preached the same gospel.
This should bring out some more frothing of the mouth....

Really,bro.....give me a break. BY saught to rule with an Old Testament fist

"Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them. You would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the Kingdom of God. I would at once do so, in such a case; and under the circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.... There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 108-109

“If you want to know what to do with a thief that you may find stealing, I say kill him on the spot, and never suffer him to commit another iniquity. I will prove by my works whether I can mete out justice to such persons, or not. I would consider it just as much my duty to do that, as to baptize a man for the remission of his sins.”
---------------------
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Right how it should be. Imagine a crime free society.

[MMbelieve]

The most ironic thing about all of this, is that defenders of Brigham Young refuse to consider that he may have been wrong on so many things because that would mean that potentially he and others misguided the church, and yet, it seems half of these staunch defenders of Brigham have no problem claiming that modern Church leaders are misguiding the Church?

I'm missing the logic. It's a world breaking thought that maybe Presidents 2-6 misguided the church, but Presidents 6+ misleading us isn't a big deal?

It's beyond me how easily one can think that modern Church leaders are apostate false prophets and then freak out at the mention that Brigham might be wrong, claiming that such a belief would mean that Brigham might be an apostate false prophet. Such a possibility doesn't bother you in 2019.. but the possibility of that being true in 1850 bothers you? I just.. I don't get it. Beyond anything else, inconsistency bothers me.

Very easy to comprehend, BY, JT, WW, LS all knew Joseph Smith personally and studied under him and were taught by him. The BY you talk about and object to, is not the BY I've learned about. But that is your privilege. Your BY does not fit your "politically correct" idea of a prophet today. Brigham Young personally knew more about Joseph Smith and his doctrine and understood Joseph more than you ever will. Because IMO, you have rejected certain requisite gospel doctrines/tenets required to advance in the KofG. BY definitely made mistakes, like all men do, but what you call errors in doctrine, are not errors at all, but rather you have closed your mind to them along with many others.
I'll say it again, BY had more light in an hour than you and I and every single basher of his character will ever have in our lifetime. He was right on CPM, the priesthood ban, the Adam/God doctrine, Blood Atonement etc.
Go ahead make him an "offender for a word", you may not ever find out in this life or even the next, but BY died in the faith, faithful to God, faithful to Joseph, and faithful to the eternal truths of God. He was a man who did more for the cause of God than you and I ever will.
As far as today, look at our fruits, they are disturbing to say the least. We have strayed so far away from what Joseph revealed and taught it is almost unrecognizable. Although the BofM still stands, thank God.
BY was and is still a faithful servant of Jesus Christ, and all those that mock and belittle BY are simply doing the same thing to Jesus Christ Himself. If Jesus Christ was to come among us today, we would rail against Him also, because we hate His laws. And our fruits show it. Just like Jesus told His disciples, if they hated me, they will hate you. And so it is with BY, those that hate BY, also hate Jesus, because they both are "One", and preached the same gospel.
This should bring out some more frothing of the mouth....

Really,bro.....give me a break. BY saught to rule with an Old Testament fist

"Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them. You would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the Kingdom of God. I would at once do so, in such a case; and under the circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.... There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 108-109

“If you want to know what to do with a thief that you may find stealing, I say kill him on the spot, and never suffer him to commit another iniquity. I will prove by my works whether I can mete out justice to such persons, or not. I would consider it just as much my duty to do that, as to baptize a man for the remission of his sins.”
---------------------
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Right how it should be. Imagine a crime free society.

We all need forgiveness, killing people because of their sins was done away with Christ. It’s the entire point of what he did. God demands justice, without Christ we all would necessarily have to die. With Christ, we have the chance to live with God again and progress IF we adopt his ways and come to him.

Seems BY forgot or didn’t understand the mercy of the plan and who Christ really was. I would never marry a man who could put a javelin through my heart. He had no right to be God!

[nightlight]

The most ironic thing about all of this, is that defenders of Brigham Young refuse to consider that he may have been wrong on so many things because that would mean that potentially he and others misguided the church, and yet, it seems half of these staunch defenders of Brigham have no problem claiming that modern Church leaders are misguiding the Church?

I'm missing the logic. It's a world breaking thought that maybe Presidents 2-6 misguided the church, but Presidents 6+ misleading us isn't a big deal?

It's beyond me how easily one can think that modern Church leaders are apostate false prophets and then freak out at the mention that Brigham might be wrong, claiming that such a belief would mean that Brigham might be an apostate false prophet. Such a possibility doesn't bother you in 2019.. but the possibility of that being true in 1850 bothers you? I just.. I don't get it. Beyond anything else, inconsistency bothers me.

Very easy to comprehend, BY, JT, WW, LS all knew Joseph Smith personally and studied under him and were taught by him. The BY you talk about and object to, is not the BY I've learned about. But that is your privilege. Your BY does not fit your "politically correct" idea of a prophet today. Brigham Young personally knew more about Joseph Smith and his doctrine and understood Joseph more than you ever will. Because IMO, you have rejected certain requisite gospel doctrines/tenets required to advance in the KofG. BY definitely made mistakes, like all men do, but what you call errors in doctrine, are not errors at all, but rather you have closed your mind to them along with many others.
I'll say it again, BY had more light in an hour than you and I and every single basher of his character will ever have in our lifetime. He was right on CPM, the priesthood ban, the Adam/God doctrine, Blood Atonement etc.
Go ahead make him an "offender for a word", you may not ever find out in this life or even the next, but BY died in the faith, faithful to God, faithful to Joseph, and faithful to the eternal truths of God. He was a man who did more for the cause of God than you and I ever will.
As far as today, look at our fruits, they are disturbing to say the least. We have strayed so far away from what Joseph revealed and taught it is almost unrecognizable. Although the BofM still stands, thank God.
BY was and is still a faithful servant of Jesus Christ, and all those that mock and belittle BY are simply doing the same thing to Jesus Christ Himself. If Jesus Christ was to come among us today, we would rail against Him also, because we hate His laws. And our fruits show it. Just like Jesus told His disciples, if they hated me, they will hate you. And so it is with BY, those that hate BY, also hate Jesus, because they both are "One", and preached the same gospel.
This should bring out some more frothing of the mouth....

Really,bro.....give me a break. BY saught to rule with an Old Testament fist

"Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them. You would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the Kingdom of God. I would at once do so, in such a case; and under the circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.... There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 108-109

“If you want to know what to do with a thief that you may find stealing, I say kill him on the spot, and never suffer him to commit another iniquity. I will prove by my works whether I can mete out justice to such persons, or not. I would consider it just as much my duty to do that, as to baptize a man for the remission of his sins.”
---------------------
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Right how it should be. Imagine a crime free society.

Brigham > Jesus
Hence... the modern Mormon


"Hello, Link. Wake up. The Great Deku Tree wants to talk to you! Link, get up!"

[Shaffer89]

There is one thing that I have always respected when I look at what little I know of Brigham Young's life. If he believed something, he vehemently defended it and would fight for it. Which is probably also why he overstepped and sometimes made mistakes.
Despite any negative things I have learned I believe he was a true prophet and would be glad to be considered as someone who respects him and follows his example.

[MMbelieve]

There is one thing that I have always respected when I look at what little I know of Brigham Young's life. If he believed something, he vehemently defended it and would fight for it. Which is probably also why he overstepped and sometimes made mistakes.
Despite any negative things I have learned I believe he was a true prophet and would be glad to be considered as someone who respects him and follows his example.

It’s why he was the guy to bring the saints out west.

[simpleton]

Very easy to comprehend, BY, JT, WW, LS all knew Joseph Smith personally and studied under him and were taught by him. The BY you talk about and object to, is not the BY I've learned about. But that is your privilege. Your BY does not fit your "politically correct" idea of a prophet today. Brigham Young personally knew more about Joseph Smith and his doctrine and understood Joseph more than you ever will. Because IMO, you have rejected certain requisite gospel doctrines/tenets required to advance in the KofG. BY definitely made mistakes, like all men do, but what you call errors in doctrine, are not errors at all, but rather you have closed your mind to them along with many others.
I'll say it again, BY had more light in an hour than you and I and every single basher of his character will ever have in our lifetime. He was right on CPM, the priesthood ban, the Adam/God doctrine, Blood Atonement etc.
Go ahead make him an "offender for a word", you may not ever find out in this life or even the next, but BY died in the faith, faithful to God, faithful to Joseph, and faithful to the eternal truths of God. He was a man who did more for the cause of God than you and I ever will.
As far as today, look at our fruits, they are disturbing to say the least. We have strayed so far away from what Joseph revealed and taught it is almost unrecognizable. Although the BofM still stands, thank God.
BY was and is still a faithful servant of Jesus Christ, and all those that mock and belittle BY are simply doing the same thing to Jesus Christ Himself. If Jesus Christ was to come among us today, we would rail against Him also, because we hate His laws. And our fruits show it. Just like Jesus told His disciples, if they hated me, they will hate you. And so it is with BY, those that hate BY, also hate Jesus, because they both are "One", and preached the same gospel.
This should bring out some more frothing of the mouth....

Really,bro.....give me a break. BY saught to rule with an Old Testament fist

"Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them. You would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the Kingdom of God. I would at once do so, in such a case; and under the circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.... There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 108-109

“If you want to know what to do with a thief that you may find stealing, I say kill him on the spot, and never suffer him to commit another iniquity. I will prove by my works whether I can mete out justice to such persons, or not. I would consider it just as much my duty to do that, as to baptize a man for the remission of his sins.”
---------------------
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Right how it should be. Imagine a crime free society.

We all need forgiveness, killing people because of their sins was done away with Christ. It’s the entire point of what he did. God demands justice, without Christ we all would necessarily have to die. With Christ, we have the chance to live with God again and progress IF we adopt his ways and come to him.

Seems BY forgot or didn’t understand the mercy of the plan and who Christ really was. I would never marry a man who could put a javelin through my heart. He had no right to be God!

So, the good ol USA should get rid of Capital Punishment then?

[MMbelieve]

Really,bro.....give me a break. BY saught to rule with an Old Testament fist

"Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them. You would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the Kingdom of God. I would at once do so, in such a case; and under the circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.... There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 108-109

“If you want to know what to do with a thief that you may find stealing, I say kill him on the spot, and never suffer him to commit another iniquity. I will prove by my works whether I can mete out justice to such persons, or not. I would consider it just as much my duty to do that, as to baptize a man for the remission of his sins.”
---------------------
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Right how it should be. Imagine a crime free society.

We all need forgiveness, killing people because of their sins was done away with Christ. It’s the entire point of what he did. God demands justice, without Christ we all would necessarily have to die. With Christ, we have the chance to live with God again and progress IF we adopt his ways and come to him.

Seems BY forgot or didn’t understand the mercy of the plan and who Christ really was. I would never marry a man who could put a javelin through my heart. He had no right to be God!

So, the good ol USA should get rid of Capital Punishment then?

Some places have and as it seems right now it’s not much of a sentence anyways when they can stay on death row for many years. Personally, gruesome murder to me is punishable by death BECAUSE it’s murder. God can sort that person out later. We do not kill people for lesser crimes.

[nightlight]

Really,bro.....give me a break. BY saught to rule with an Old Testament fist

"Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them. You would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the Kingdom of God. I would at once do so, in such a case; and under the circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.... There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 108-109

“If you want to know what to do with a thief that you may find stealing, I say kill him on the spot, and never suffer him to commit another iniquity. I will prove by my works whether I can mete out justice to such persons, or not. I would consider it just as much my duty to do that, as to baptize a man for the remission of his sins.”
---------------------
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Right how it should be. Imagine a crime free society.

We all need forgiveness, killing people because of their sins was done away with Christ. It’s the entire point of what he did. God demands justice, without Christ we all would necessarily have to die. With Christ, we have the chance to live with God again and progress IF we adopt his ways and come to him.

Seems BY forgot or didn’t understand the mercy of the plan and who Christ really was. I would never marry a man who could put a javelin through my heart. He had no right to be God!

So, the good ol USA should get rid of Capital Punishment then?

complete lack of understanding reality.

Capital Punishment has nothing to do with saving a murderers soul. A murderers (besides those who murder after receiving the HG) soul is saved by their imprisonment in hell , where they suffer like Jesus suffered(Justice). At the end a the millennium, they are let out and put into the lowest Kingdom, having fulfilled Justice. Only Sons of Perdition are still dirty after they are let out of hell, at the end of Millennium. Since they remain dirty still....their only place is to be cast out into Outer Darkness.

Capital punishment is issued because....when you murder someone.......you lose the right to live on the earth among other humans.

Im blown away that you advocate the lower law of the Old Testament.
You are making Jesus nothing in your teaching.
This teaching is one of the worst things a Christian can do.

"Shed the blood of a sinner....to save his soul!!! "
"Kill the apostate!!"

Come on , man....stop.

[diligently seeking]

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... up-d-etat/
This guy has since disavowed everything these days. But, his research on the podcast he puts out on Brigham... if true, is quite disturbing and revealing.

[simpleton]

Right how it should be. Imagine a crime free society.

We all need forgiveness, killing people because of their sins was done away with Christ. It’s the entire point of what he did. God demands justice, without Christ we all would necessarily have to die. With Christ, we have the chance to live with God again and progress IF we adopt his ways and come to him.

Seems BY forgot or didn’t understand the mercy of the plan and who Christ really was. I would never marry a man who could put a javelin through my heart. He had no right to be God!

So, the good ol USA should get rid of Capital Punishment then?

complete lack of understanding reality.

Capital Punishment has nothing to do with saving a murderers soul. A murderers (besides those who murder after receiving the HG) soul is saved by their imprisonment in hell , where they suffer like Jesus suffered(Justice). At the end a the millennium, they are let out and put into the lowest Kingdom, having fulfilled Justice. Only Sons of Perdition are still dirty after they are let out of hell, at the end of Millennium. Since they remain dirty still....their only place is to be cast out into Outer Darkness.

Capital punishment is issued because....when you murder someone.......you lose the right to live on the earth among other humans.

Im blown away that you advocate the lower law of the Old Testament.
You are making Jesus nothing in your teaching.
This teaching is one of the worst things a Christian can do.

"Shed the blood of a sinner....to save his soul!!! "
"Kill the apostate!!"

Come on , man....stop.

Stop what, let's get on the same page if we are not, a person that murders should absolutely receive the death penalty, I suppose you agree with that. That actually "helps" the murderers soul in the eternities. But the good book says that "a murderer hath not eternal life". But I suppose a murderer that truly repents in the next life can eventually be saved. But he still should be executed here...

[nightlight]

We all need forgiveness, killing people because of their sins was done away with Christ. It’s the entire point of what he did. God demands justice, without Christ we all would necessarily have to die. With Christ, we have the chance to live with God again and progress IF we adopt his ways and come to him.

Seems BY forgot or didn’t understand the mercy of the plan and who Christ really was. I would never marry a man who could put a javelin through my heart. He had no right to be God!

So, the good ol USA should get rid of Capital Punishment then?

complete lack of understanding reality.

Capital Punishment has nothing to do with saving a murderers soul. A murderers (besides those who murder after receiving the HG) soul is saved by their imprisonment in hell , where they suffer like Jesus suffered(Justice). At the end a the millennium, they are let out and put into the lowest Kingdom, having fulfilled Justice. Only Sons of Perdition are still dirty after they are let out of hell, at the end of Millennium. Since they remain dirty still....their only place is to be cast out into Outer Darkness.

Capital punishment is issued because....when you murder someone.......you lose the right to live on the earth among other humans.

Im blown away that you advocate the lower law of the Old Testament.
You are making Jesus nothing in your teaching.
This teaching is one of the worst things a Christian can do.

"Shed the blood of a sinner....to save his soul!!! "
"Kill the apostate!!"

Come on , man....stop.

Stop what, let's get on the same page if we are not, a person that murders should absolutely receive the death penalty, I suppose you agree with that. That actually "helps" the murderers soul in the eternities. But the good book says that "a murderer hath not eternal life". But I suppose a murderer that truly repents in the next life can eventually be saved. But he still should be executed here...

I believe in capital punishment, but it has nothing to do with that persons spiritual penance.

Why do you look past the teaching of Jesus Christ? Only ONE sin cant be forgiven. Jesus doesn't save people in their sins....if they die in their sins they go to were Alma the younger went, until justice is fulfilled in them. When in this place(hell)...they pay for their sins the same way Christ paid for the sins of all those who take part in Him & those not under the Law. They take no part in mercy, but must fulfill Justice. Christ is both Mercy&Justice. When Justice is reach, Christ will command Hell to release its captive.

Will Paul go to hell for murder? How about king Lamoni? No , they didn't die in their sin. Obviously, we, as a human society, are bound to execute the murderer, this is our default law because we live in a country that has been set up by God, and has access to the Fullness. If god wants to intervene...then He will. But only murder is grounds for the death penalty. May they find mercy before the hang. if you murder you forfeit the right to live on earth....unless God intervenes.

Speaking of dying in ones sins.......

What you and BY advocate is killing people IN THEIR SINS .. this is of Satan. "Kill the apostate...Kill the fornicater...Kill the adulterer "
Read the words of Christ... "I condem you not...go and SIN NO MORE "

Why fight the work of Christ? Did not Christ come to heal the sick? How can a man be change when his "people" kill dude before he can achieve a remission of sin?

You think your knife is Jesus ?.....insanity

If you think you can kill a man for his beliefs, which thing is completely against the Law of God(see Book of Mormon), then you are fighting for Satan...you are killing for Satan. Save a man's soul by killing him for theft?? That is the most ridiculous thing I've read on this site.

And please...don't try and tell me that stuff is just for the Nephites.... i might throw up. The Book of Mormon is the Stick of Ephraim.....WE ARE EPHRAIM.

If you think we can reach the Apex Socitiey by killing the sick..............
"imagine a crime free society" ....says the criminals

[Bronco73idi]

Very interesting topic here. I have questioned the legitimacy of President Young and have gained a testimony that he was a prophet.

I find capital punishment interesting, we are taught about the Old Testament was eye for an eye, one reason of justification is because they were too savage to live the higher law.

While researching race relations in the Old Testament it dawned on me capital punishment is not the way of the lord, never has been. One could say the lord might reply to a Pharisee who asked about why it was allowed with “because of the hardness of your hearts.”

All one has to look at is the first story of murder in the Bible. So then eye for an eye isn’t about ending the sinner’s worldly mission but retribution to the grieving family. But Cain was cursed one will say, so was Canaan. Canaan didn’t even do anything wrong, his sloth of a father did.

[simpleton]

1st Corinthians 5:


1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So here Apostle Paul, after Christ, judges in the spirit, that this fornicator should be destroyed in the flesh for sleeping with his fathers wife. Apostle Paul also in Roman's 1, says that gays and lesbians are "worthy of death" and that is after the ascension of Christ.
Joseph Smith was for "capital punishment" but not hanging, but rather that their blood should be shed upon the ground.

D&C 42:
18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

19 And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die.

Here is the typical belief that went on for years from Joseph on into the 20th century.

“Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church.”

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, pp. 135-136, 1954

[Mindfields]

“Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church.”

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, pp. 135-136, 1954

This is one of the most anti-Christ statements ever uttered by a religious leader. What a shame that it came out of the mouth of a so called apostle who would one day lead the church.

[Zathura]

“Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church.”

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, pp. 135-136, 1954

This is one of the most anti-Christ statements ever uttered by a religious leader. What a shame that it came out of the mouth of a so called apostle who would one day lead the church.

“Scriptural Doctrine”.


Must be found in that portion of scripture we don’t have yet.

[Mindfields]

Won't it be interesting to read that as yet unrevealed nugget that Christ's atonement wasn't exactly infinite. In fact it really doesn't do much at all.
Just follow us and you'll be okay. That sure looks like a cliff ahead...

This is yet another example of Brigham Young's screwed up doctrine being blamed on Joseph Smith.

[Zathura]

Won't it be interesting to read that as yet unrevealed nugget that Christ's atonement wasn't exactly infinite. In fact it really doesn't do much at all.
Just follow us and you'll be okay. That sure looks like a cliff ahead...

This is yet another example of Brigham Young's screwed up doctrine being blamed on Joseph Smith.

“Joseph told me in secret before he died, trust me”

“Each of these doctrines are explicitly contradicted by every book of scripture but okay, if you say so!”

[Mindfields]

“Joseph told me in secret before he died, trust me”

“Each of these doctrines are explicitly contradicted by every book of scripture but okay, if you say so!”

All believing Mormons salvation totally depends on whether or not Brigham Young was telling the truth. I would argue that 90 plus percent of today's church doctrine came through Brigham Young. So Brigham's insistence that he got it from Joseph better be accurate.