Brigham: Good or Bad?

[nightlight]

1st Corinthians 5:


1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So here Apostle Paul, after Christ, judges in the spirit, that this fornicator should be destroyed in the flesh for sleeping with his fathers wife. Apostle Paul also in Roman's 1, says that gays and lesbians are "worthy of death" and that is after the ascension of Christ.
Joseph Smith was for "capital punishment" but not hanging, but rather that their blood should be shed upon the ground.

D&C 42:
18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

19 And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die.

Here is the typical belief that went on for years from Joseph on into the 20th century.

“Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church.”

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, pp. 135-136, 1954

Fielding was full of b.s.

Funny thing about Corinthians/ Romans....it was written by a murderer/fornicater..............lol yet...........................................................................................Christ was enough to clean him. Paul was clean before he was martyred, else he could not perform miracles in the name of Christ.....Paul received The Fire

Do you not BELIEVE in the Book of Mormon?
How was it King Lamoni achieved a remission of sin?


You guys and TBMs make me feel like I'm in the twilight zone.
What the hell, man.........you have the scriptures before you. The Book of Mormon is contends against thee.....Christ contends against thee.

"Christ can't forgive the adulterer....only our knives can!!!! Let us become saviors with our swords!!"
Sick,bro......sick

I'll can hear when you say this stuff is when you told me once " that was just for the Nephites"


D&C 42 is talking to those who belong to Church,i.e those who received baptism of Water&Fire.
it's not talking to men in Africa who grew up as child soldiers etc

You guys make me wanna shake you

[simpleton]

1st Corinthians 5:


1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So here Apostle Paul, after Christ, judges in the spirit, that this fornicator should be destroyed in the flesh for sleeping with his fathers wife. Apostle Paul also in Roman's 1, says that gays and lesbians are "worthy of death" and that is after the ascension of Christ.
Joseph Smith was for "capital punishment" but not hanging, but rather that their blood should be shed upon the ground.

D&C 42:
18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

19 And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die.

Here is the typical belief that went on for years from Joseph on into the 20th century.

“Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church.”

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, pp. 135-136, 1954

Fielding was full of b.s.

Funny thing about Corinthians/ Romans....it was written by a murderer/fornicater..............lol yet...........................................................................................Christ was enough to clean him. Paul was clean before he was martyred, else he could not perform miracles in the name of Christ.....Paul received The Fire

Do you not BELIEVE in the Book of Mormon?
How was it King Lamoni achieved a remission of sin?


You guys and TBMs make me feel like I'm in the twilight zone.
What the hell, man.........you have the scriptures before you. The Book of Mormon is contends against thee.....Christ contends against thee.

"Christ can't forgive the adulterer....only our knives can!!!! Let us become saviors with our swords!!"
Sick,bro......sick

I'll can hear when you say this stuff is when you told me once " that was just for the Nephites"


D&C 42 is talking to those who belong to Church,i.e those who received baptism of Water&Fire.
it's not talking to men in Africa who grew up as child soldiers etc

You guys make me wanna shake you

There is a big difference to sin, like unto King Lamoni and Apostle Paul that were not enlightened by the Spirit/Power of God. And quite another to sin after having that knowledge. To be "destroyed as pertaining to the flesh" but "saved in the spirit" is exactly the "blood atonement".

[nightlight]

1st Corinthians 5:


1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So here Apostle Paul, after Christ, judges in the spirit, that this fornicator should be destroyed in the flesh for sleeping with his fathers wife. Apostle Paul also in Roman's 1, says that gays and lesbians are "worthy of death" and that is after the ascension of Christ.
Joseph Smith was for "capital punishment" but not hanging, but rather that their blood should be shed upon the ground.

D&C 42:
18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

19 And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die.

Here is the typical belief that went on for years from Joseph on into the 20th century.

“Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church.”

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, pp. 135-136, 1954

Fielding was full of b.s.

Funny thing about Corinthians/ Romans....it was written by a murderer/fornicater..............lol yet...........................................................................................Christ was enough to clean him. Paul was clean before he was martyred, else he could not perform miracles in the name of Christ.....Paul received The Fire

Do you not BELIEVE in the Book of Mormon?
How was it King Lamoni achieved a remission of sin?


You guys and TBMs make me feel like I'm in the twilight zone.
What the hell, man.........you have the scriptures before you. The Book of Mormon is contends against thee.....Christ contends against thee.

"Christ can't forgive the adulterer....only our knives can!!!! Let us become saviors with our swords!!"
Sick,bro......sick

I'll can hear when you say this stuff is when you told me once " that was just for the Nephites"


D&C 42 is talking to those who belong to Church,i.e those who received baptism of Water&Fire.
it's not talking to men in Africa who grew up as child soldiers etc

You guys make me wanna shake you

There is a big difference to sin, like unto King Lamoni and Apostle Paul that were not enlightened by the Spirit/Power of God. And quite another to sin after having that knowledge. To be "destroyed as pertaining to the flesh" but "saved in the sprit" is exactly the "blood atonement".

You don't understand this scripture. Paul is not telling his people to kill the fornicater, he is saying to cast them out, ie exile them. When they do this that person is then subject unto Satan. This is obvious.....because. ...he say cast them out from among you. Peter didn't hold execution trials.........THEY HELD EXILE TRIALS.

This is crazy, bro. Context is key, brother


"And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins."

[nightlight]

This is a perfect example of men setting themselves up as GOD.

[Art Vandelay]

Polygamy was a big no-no in 1914 thus any relevance in 1930 wouldn't really be doctrinal as it was excommunicable. The story is the same today. It's in the scriptures, just like it's in the scriptures that the Prophet Nathan gave David polygamous relationships but if you practiced it right now you'd get a big hefty boot to your backside from the church flinging you far away.

The Book wasn’t including just “currently doctrinal” stuff .besides I thought polygamy was an “Eternal Principle”. It was including revelations that came through Joseph. 132 was excluded. Good for them.

And no, David was not given polygamous relationships. The women were delivered into his care. God did not take the actual wives of one man and give them to David to have sex with.

W
R
E
S
T
I
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G

I don't believe I'm wresting the scriptures, I hope I'm not. I try to look at things as they are or were. I'm not pro-polygamy anyway.

I suppose that since section 132 is still in the D&C then the church still believes it's a revelation from God. That says more than taking guesses regarding some book that never took off.
And yes, David was given multiple wives by the prophet Nathan in addition to the many wives he already had.
David already a half dozen or so wives before Nathan gave him however many Saul had. Can we agree on that? What do the scriptures later say about David?

Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. -1 Kings 15:5.

What is written on the OT validates what is written on section 132
Section 132-
39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife

[harakim]

Both: He was a great leader as far as public relations is concerned. One of the best the church has ever had.
But he was absolutely horrid in his personal life. Let's face it, the widows weren't married to him for their sake, but so that he could acquire their land and property. No reason at all in Utah that he couldn't have pressed for a law saying women could keep their own land upon widowhood. Or did he? Even if one could excuse that part with the argument that the women weren't left destitute, there's no excuse for engaging in intercourse with multiple women and fathering over 50 kids.

His excellence as a father and husband to many has always been one of the things that has caused me to deeply admire him.

Have you read about him? Most of his kids didn't even know him.

[winterquarters]

Testimonies of Divine Approval

Nine members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles met on Sunday, December 5, 1847 at 9:40 p.m. at the home of Orson Hyde in Kanesville, Iowa (renamed Council Bluffs in Jan. 1853) and appointed Brigham Young as President of the Church...Shortly after the New Year 1848 began, the apostles met at Orson Hyde's home again. At this meeting they received a miraculous confirmation of Brigham Young's call to the Presidency of the Church. Reporting this in a later conference, Orson said, "The voice of God came from on high, and spoke to the Council; and the voice rousing every latent feeling and melting every heart, said in the hearing of all the apostles, 'Let my servant Brigham step forth and receive the full power of the Presiding Priesthood in my Church and Kingdom.'" Orson said that at the time the Twelve "did hear and feel the voice from heaven, and we were filled with the power of God." The apostles did not make known their revelation at that time, but the Saints in the immediate area knew something had happened. Men, women and children came running where we were, and asked what was the matter. They said their houses shook and the ground trembled, and they did not know but there was an earthquake. The apostles merely told them, "The Lord was only whispering to us a little, and that He was probably not far off." The apostles had not felt the ground or house shaking; they only felt themselves filled with "exceeding power and goodness of God. We knew and realized that we had the testimony of God within us."
(Brigham Young, JD 8:197; Oct. 7, 1860; OHB:181-182)
Found at: http://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONR/itc/Doctr ... god_by.htm

[John Tavner]

Testimonies of Divine Approval

Nine members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles met on Sunday, December 5, 1847 at 9:40 p.m. at the home of Orson Hyde in Kanesville, Iowa (renamed Council Bluffs in Jan. 1853) and appointed Brigham Young as President of the Church...Shortly after the New Year 1848 began, the apostles met at Orson Hyde's home again. At this meeting they received a miraculous confirmation of Brigham Young's call to the Presidency of the Church. Reporting this in a later conference, Orson said, "The voice of God came from on high, and spoke to the Council; and the voice rousing every latent feeling and melting every heart, said in the hearing of all the apostles, 'Let my servant Brigham step forth and receive the full power of the Presiding Priesthood in my Church and Kingdom.'" Orson said that at the time the Twelve "did hear and feel the voice from heaven, and we were filled with the power of God." The apostles did not make known their revelation at that time, but the Saints in the immediate area knew something had happened. Men, women and children came running where we were, and asked what was the matter. They said their houses shook and the ground trembled, and they did not know but there was an earthquake. The apostles merely told them, "The Lord was only whispering to us a little, and that He was probably not far off." The apostles had not felt the ground or house shaking; they only felt themselves filled with "exceeding power and goodness of God. We knew and realized that we had the testimony of God within us."
(Brigham Young, JD 8:197; Oct. 7, 1860; OHB:181-182)
Found at: http://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONR/itc/Doctr ... god_by.htm

This may have happened, but Orson was known to... exaggerate claims from time to time... he also didn't like Sidney Rigdon if I rembember correctly.... It was kinda like a "screw you" to Rigdon. Orson - agian if I remember correctly also claimed to have seen Brigham transfigured... but he wasn't even in the city when Brigham gave the speech wehre he was supposedly transfigured.

[Mindfields]

Testimonies of Divine Approval

More fake news.

[simpleton]

Testimonies of Divine Approval

Nine members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles met on Sunday, December 5, 1847 at 9:40 p.m. at the home of Orson Hyde in Kanesville, Iowa (renamed Council Bluffs in Jan. 1853) and appointed Brigham Young as President of the Church...Shortly after the New Year 1848 began, the apostles met at Orson Hyde's home again. At this meeting they received a miraculous confirmation of Brigham Young's call to the Presidency of the Church. Reporting this in a later conference, Orson said, "The voice of God came from on high, and spoke to the Council; and the voice rousing every latent feeling and melting every heart, said in the hearing of all the apostles, 'Let my servant Brigham step forth and receive the full power of the Presiding Priesthood in my Church and Kingdom.'" Orson said that at the time the Twelve "did hear and feel the voice from heaven, and we were filled with the power of God." The apostles did not make known their revelation at that time, but the Saints in the immediate area knew something had happened. Men, women and children came running where we were, and asked what was the matter. They said their houses shook and the ground trembled, and they did not know but there was an earthquake. The apostles merely told them, "The Lord was only whispering to us a little, and that He was probably not far off." The apostles had not felt the ground or house shaking; they only felt themselves filled with "exceeding power and goodness of God. We knew and realized that we had the testimony of God within us."
(Brigham Young, JD 8:197; Oct. 7, 1860; OHB:181-182)
Found at: http://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONR/itc/Doctr ... god_by.htm

This may have happened, but Orson was known to... exaggerate claims from time to time... he also didn't like Sidney Rigdon if I rembember correctly.... It was kinda like a "screw you" to Rigdon. Orson - agian if I remember correctly also claimed to have seen Brigham transfigured... but he wasn't even in the city when Brigham gave the speech wehre he was supposedly transfigured.

So your point is? Fake news? It did not happen at all?

[Mindfields]

So your point is? Fake news? It did not happen at all?

Highly unlikely. There are no contemporaneous records of the "event". Wilford Woodruff mentions nothing unusual about the meeting in his personal diary on that day nor did the official meeting minutes mention any miraculous event or anything beyond the ordinary. The first mention of it was 13 years later in conference by Orson Hyde.

At the December 1847 conference, without any mention of the revelation, the Twelve proposed that the First Presidency be reestablished, with Brigham Young as president, and Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards as Counselors. Just to be clear they did not mention the revelation at all let alone use it as any sort of justification to help build a case to reconstitute the first presidency.

At best this is an unsubstantiated remembrance, yet the church uses it as direct evidence that Brigham was chosen to lead directly by God.

[Mike Griffith]

Brigham Young was a great prophet and a great man. I could not care less about his faults, since God has told us that no mortal will be perfect in this life. Brigham's virtues far outweighed his faults.

[Obrien]

Here's a divisive one. Was Brigham Young a great leader or unmitigated disaster?

Why would you seek to stir up division? I don't get it.

[nightlight]

Brigham Young was a great prophet and a great man. I could not care less about his faults, since God has told us that no mortal will be perfect in this life. Brigham's virtues far outweighed his faults.

When did God tell us that?

If you die clean...you die perfect. It's the point of the Atonment. How many saints died being Clean "every whit"...aka perfect ?

"Be ye therefore perfect"

yes...no one will go through this life without sin, but one...but that One makes all things possible...

People use their memory to discredit men made Holy....but God remembers their sins no more

[Luke]

Here's a divisive one. Was Brigham Young a great leader or unmitigated disaster?

Why would you seek to stir up division? I don't get it.

Sorry its not really my intention, I think you misunderstand what the poll was for. Just to try and promote a healthy discussion.

[Obrien]

Here's a divisive one. Was Brigham Young a great leader or unmitigated disaster?

Why would you seek to stir up division? I don't get it.

Sorry its not really my intention, I think you misunderstand what the poll was for. Just to try and promote a healthy discussion.

Ok... sorry to misunderstand what the poll was for.

Fortunately, I understand Brother Brigham. The original survey did not include an option for "unmitigated douche canoe".

That's my vote.