Pay your tithing, Obey Authority

[largerthanlife]

Do people on welfare pay tithing? Free housing and free food but they don't pay any tithing?

[nightlight]

An underlying theme I see in all of these posts is a deep desire that all in the Church be treated fairly and their basic needs be provided for.

It sounds like we are nearly ready for the Lord to bring back the Law of Consecration AKA the United Order. The Lord may think it is time for us to start building the New Jerusalem. I expect to see something good start happening in 2020.

It is my understanding that the United Order was an attempted implementation of the Law of Consecration and not the thing itself. I think it incorrect to say AKA.

The Law of Consecration is currently in effect and all endowed members covenant to live it. This is an individual covenant, not a social one. There is nothing preventing each endowed member from currently living this law to the fullest.

We may never see the United Order again, just like we may never see home teaching again. But the Law of Consecration is and always will be with us in this dispensation.

No....
The Law of Consecration is outlined is D&C. Our church doesn't live it.
For us to live it we'd need to do what Peters people did.
It's a socioeconomic covenant.

For you to live it..you'd have to give all property to the church, then 10% of your increase from that point on.

Joseph Smith didn't start this, he restored it. Christ gave this law Peter


32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

36And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

[nightlight]

Do people on welfare pay tithing? Free housing and free food but they don't pay any tithing?

Right, bro... it makes me sick!! Complete losers!!



Sarcasm....^^^

Do you understand that you are in welfare?

[largerthanlife]

You missed my point. If someone only has enough money to pay for food and shelter, they still have to pay tithing. If someone is on welfare, they don't have to pay tithing.

[Serragon]

An underlying theme I see in all of these posts is a deep desire that all in the Church be treated fairly and their basic needs be provided for.

It sounds like we are nearly ready for the Lord to bring back the Law of Consecration AKA the United Order. The Lord may think it is time for us to start building the New Jerusalem. I expect to see something good start happening in 2020.

It is my understanding that the United Order was an attempted implementation of the Law of Consecration and not the thing itself. I think it incorrect to say AKA.

The Law of Consecration is currently in effect and all endowed members covenant to live it. This is an individual covenant, not a social one. There is nothing preventing each endowed member from currently living this law to the fullest.

We may never see the United Order again, just like we may never see home teaching again. But the Law of Consecration is and always will be with us in this dispensation.

No....
The Law of Consecration is outlined is D&C. Our church doesn't live it.
For us to live it we'd need to do what Peters people did.
It's a socioeconomic covenant.

For you to live it..you'd have to give all property to the church, then 10% of your increase from that point on.

Joseph Smith didn't start this, he restored it. Christ gave this law Peter


32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

36And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

I mean no disrespect, but I think you are a bit confused.

You claim it is a socioeconomic covenant, but the law you state is in individual covenant. You living the covenant does not depend on any other people and it does not matter what your economic status is. All can live the covenant, rich or poor.

The quote you use to illustrate the law of consecration is actually the law of the tithe from D&C119. But you conveniently left off the word "surplus" from the initial donation of property. I hope this was unintentional, but based upon your definition later I think it was intentional.

You state that the law of consecration is outlined in the D&C, then quote the book of Acts. The quote you do use from D&C has been modified to change its meaning and is actually referencing a different law.

Many people have given all of their surplus property to the church and then tithed a tenth of their increase thereafter. They are living the law of the tithe. To live the law of consecration, you have to be willing to give all of your property, time, talents, and life to the Church for the building of the Kingdom of Zion on the earth. This is the covenant.

I appreciate you wanting us as a Church to live a version of the united order. It has been practiced many times throughout history and has been documented many times in the scriptures. I, too, would like to live in that society. But even if we are not living in that society, we are still expected to live the Law of Consecration individually. And there is absolutely no socioeconomic reasons why you cant.

[Matchmaker]

You missed my point. If someone only has enough money to pay for food and shelter, they still have to pay tithing. If someone is on welfare, they don't have to pay tithing.

You raise an interesting point. An employed person who earns just enough to pay for housing, utilities, insurance, food, and is then broke is expected to pay tithing, but a person who receives welfare enough to cover those basics does not have to pay tithing. Where is the justice in that?

If the person receives help from the Church, they are supposed to work at the Storehouse, Church Farm, or Indexing for so many hours a week. If they do it, I guess the Lord might view it as having paid tithing.

[Robin Hood]

You missed my point. If someone only has enough money to pay for food and shelter, they still have to pay tithing. If someone is on welfare, they don't have to pay tithing.

You raise an interesting point. An employed person who earns just enough to pay for housing, utilities, insurance, food, and is then broke is expected to pay tithing, but a person who receives welfare enough to cover those basics does not have to pay tithing. Where is the justice in that?

If the person receives help from the Church, they are supposed to work at the Storehouse, Church Farm, or Indexing for so many hours a week. If they do it, I guess the Lord might view it as having paid tithing.

By welfare, do you mean government welfare?
If so, I know of no directive that recipients of government welfare are exempt from paying tithing.

If you mean church welfare, you have a point... kinda.
Very few members rely solely on church welfare, but if they do they don't receive cash. Therefore it would be impossible to pay tithing. For those receiving church welfare to supplement a low income, tithing is still a requirement.

[nightlight]

An underlying theme I see in all of these posts is a deep desire that all in the Church be treated fairly and their basic needs be provided for.

It sounds like we are nearly ready for the Lord to bring back the Law of Consecration AKA the United Order. The Lord may think it is time for us to start building the New Jerusalem. I expect to see something good start happening in 2020.

It is my understanding that the United Order was an attempted implementation of the Law of Consecration and not the thing itself. I think it incorrect to say AKA.

The Law of Consecration is currently in effect and all endowed members covenant to live it. This is an individual covenant, not a social one. There is nothing preventing each endowed member from currently living this law to the fullest.

We may never see the United Order again, just like we may never see home teaching again. But the Law of Consecration is and always will be with us in this dispensation.

No....
The Law of Consecration is outlined is D&C. Our church doesn't live it.
For us to live it we'd need to do what Peters people did.
It's a socioeconomic covenant.

For you to live it..you'd have to give all property to the church, then 10% of your increase from that point on.

Joseph Smith didn't start this, he restored it. Christ gave this law Peter


32And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

36And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

I mean no disrespect, but I think you are a bit confused.

You claim it is a socioeconomic covenant, but the law you state is in individual covenant. You living the covenant does not depend on any other people and it does not matter what your economic status is. All can live the covenant, rich or poor.

The quote you use to illustrate the law of consecration is actually the law of the tithe from D&C119. But you conveniently left off the word "surplus" from the initial donation of property. I hope this was unintentional, but based upon your definition later I think it was intentional.

You state that the law of consecration is outlined in the D&C, then quote the book of Acts. The quote you do use from D&C has been modified to change its meaning and is actually referencing a different law.

Many people have given all of their surplus property to the church and then tithed a tenth of their increase thereafter. They are living the law of the tithe. To live the law of consecration, you have to be willing to give all of your property, time, talents, and life to the Church for the building of the Kingdom of Zion on the earth. This is the covenant.

I appreciate you wanting us as a Church to live a version of the united order. It has been practiced many times throughout history and has been documented many times in the scriptures. I, too, would like to live in that society. But even if we are not living in that society, we are still expected to live the Law of Consecration individually. And there is absolutely no socioeconomic reasons why you cant.

"To live the law of consecration, you have to be willing to give all of your property, time, talents, and life to the Church for the building of the Kingdom of Zion on the earth. This is the covenant."

You just proved my point with what you said^^^^^^^

To live the LAW of CONSECRATION you have to actually do what you just defined as the LoC......not just be WILLING. Lol the only difference between our definitions is I say you HAVE TO ACTUALLY DO IT, AND YOU SAY YOU JUST HAVE TO BE WILLING.time and talents goes without saying.


Best not to go the route of assuming intentions, you know what they say about assuming. It wasn't btw.

The United Order was just the name of the vehicle that was used to achive the Law of Consecration. Saying we have LoC without achieving the goals of the United Order is an oxymoron. It takes us from hallowed to hollow.

I quoted Acts to point out the saints of old living the Law of Consecration. imagine going to Peter and being like " ummm I'm willing to, but ill hold onto this land deed. ..let's keep this in my name"
------------------

Consecrate, Law of Consecration
See also Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven; United Order

To dedicate, to make holy, or to become righteous. The law of consecration is a divine principle whereby men and women voluntarily dedicate their time, talents, and material wealth to the establishment and building up of God’s kingdom.

Consecrate yourselves to day to the Lord, Ex. 32:29.

All that believed had all things common, Acts 2:44–45.

They had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, 4 Ne. 1:3.

The Lord explained the principles of consecration, D&C 42:30–39 (D&C 51:2–19; 58:35–36).

One man should not possess more than another, D&C 49:20.

Every man was given an equal portion according to his family, D&C 51:3.

An order was established so that the Saints could be equal in bonds of heavenly and earthly things, D&C 78:4–5.

Every man was to have equal claim according to his wants and needs, D&C 82:17–19.

Zion can only be built up by the principles of celestial law, D&C 105:5.

The people of Enoch were of one heart and one mind and dwelt in righteousness, and there were no poor among them, Moses 7:18.
-----------

United Order
See also Consecrate, Law of Consecration

An organization through which the Saints in the early days of the restored Church sought to live the law of consecration. Individuals shared property, goods, and profits, receiving these things according to their wants and needs (D&C 51:3; 78:1–15; 104).
-------------

Separating one from the other makes us a people of lip service only.

18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
---------

The Law of Consecration is a celestial law. Can you point me to this celestial people? Can men spend their lives stacking their riches in a savings account....and then say they are living the Law of Consecration when shaking hands with the poor?

i mean no disrespect, but do you have more than any other saint?

If we are not equal in ALL things... why does Nelson still say we are Gods church? I mean....God says one thing and the 15 say the opposite? What gives?

[Obrien]

Hopefully it's addressed soon.

It is not addressed... there are chronic, unaddressed hunger issues both in the world at large AND among the LDS. Go to Bountiful's website and you'll see more need than any one of us normal folk can address. Don't let that discourage you to the point of inaction. Tithe there, in lieu of the LDS church. Adopt a stake for a year. Form a group and adopt a stake. Make a recurring monthly donation that fits your capacity. This charity is the real deal - they do good with their donations now, rather than socking them away for a future need.

If you need an example, I quit paying the church 5 years ago, but we have maintained charitable giving at gross tithing levels. My income has increased threefold, we've had no lessening of the intangible blessings from heaven, and we have contentment in our decisions. I will stand at judgment day with clean hands in this regard.

[Matchmaker]

Hopefully it's addressed soon.

It is not addressed... there are chronic, unaddressed hunger issues both in the world at large AND among the LDS. Go to Bountiful's website and you'll see more need than any one of us normal folk can address. Don't let that discourage you to the point of inaction. Tithe there, in lieu of the LDS church. Adopt a stake for a year. Form a group and adopt a stake. Make a recurring monthly donation that fits your capacity. This charity is the real deal - they do good with their donations now, rather than socking them away for a future need.

If you need an example, I quit paying the church 5 years ago, but we have maintained charitable giving at gross tithing levels. My income has increased threefold, we've had no lessening of the intangible blessings from heaven, and we have contentment in our decisions. I will stand at judgment day with clean hands in this regard.

I think your charitable giving is generous and very Christ-like, but because it is not given directly through the Church's designated channels, they probably won't let you have a Temple Recommend, and you probably aren't on the records of the Church as a full tithe payer. That would cause me some worry in these latter-days.

[Obrien]

Hopefully it's addressed soon.

It is not addressed... there are chronic, unaddressed hunger issues both in the world at large AND among the LDS. Go to Bountiful's website and you'll see more need than any one of us normal folk can address. Don't let that discourage you to the point of inaction. Tithe there, in lieu of the LDS church. Adopt a stake for a year. Form a group and adopt a stake. Make a recurring monthly donation that fits your capacity. This charity is the real deal - they do good with their donations now, rather than socking them away for a future need.

If you need an example, I quit paying the church 5 years ago, but we have maintained charitable giving at gross tithing levels. My income has increased threefold, we've had no lessening of the intangible blessings from heaven, and we have contentment in our decisions. I will stand at judgment day with clean hands in this regard.

I think your charitable giving is generous and very Christ-like, but because it is not given directly through the Church's designated channels, they probably won't let you have a Temple Recommend, and you probably aren't on the records of the Church as a full tithe payer. That would cause me some worry in these latter-days.

You are correct on all counts, except the last, Matchmaker.

One piece of food for thought that you may consider: Adam was told not to sell his tokens for money. He proved his worthiness for further light and knowledge by holding these things sacred rather than trading them for money.

As stated in your comment above,
the modem church specifically requires a person to pay money (in the form of tithes and offerings) to recieve the tokens available in the temple. Therefore, the modern church trades its tokens to make money. It's odd how things change over time.

I'm flattered by your initial compliment, but realize I could do far more. Please feel free to join me in making donations to Bountiful children's foundation!

[Matchmaker]

Hopefully it's addressed soon.

It is not addressed... there are chronic, unaddressed hunger issues both in the world at large AND among the LDS. Go to Bountiful's website and you'll see more need than any one of us normal folk can address. Don't let that discourage you to the point of inaction. Tithe there, in lieu of the LDS church. Adopt a stake for a year. Form a group and adopt a stake. Make a recurring monthly donation that fits your capacity. This charity is the real deal - they do good with their donations now, rather than socking them away for a future need.

If you need an example, I quit paying the church 5 years ago, but we have maintained charitable giving at gross tithing levels. My income has increased threefold, we've had no lessening of the intangible blessings from heaven, and we have contentment in our decisions. I will stand at judgment day with clean hands in this regard.

I think your charitable giving is generous and very Christ-like, but because it is not given directly through the Church's designated channels, they probably won't let you have a Temple Recommend, and you probably aren't on the records of the Church as a full tithe payer. That would cause me some worry in these latter-days.

You are correct on all counts, except the last, Matchmaker.

One piece of food for thought that you may consider: Adam was told not to sell his tokens for money. He proved his worthiness for further light and knowledge by holding these things sacred rather than trading them for money.

As stated in your comment above,
the modem church specifically requires a person to pay money (in the form of tithes and offerings) to recieve the tokens available in the temple. Therefore, the modern church trades its tokens to make money. It's odd how things change over time.

I'm flattered by your initial compliment, but realize I could do far more. Please feel free to join me in making donations to Bountiful children's foundation!

I intend to make donations to Bountiful in 2020. Thank you for the encouragement.

[gruden2.0]

A new video I made, to share during this holiday season, so we all remember how important it is to pay tithing, no matter the cost!

Wow. Man, I'm trying to figure out what the intent was behind this vid, it's as scary as heck. It looks like something out of 1984. PAY... OBEY. So this is what we've come to. The interspliced GC comments seem very dystopian.
Every widow needs to throw in her mite to add to the $100B pile of cash. Just wow.

[Lexew1899]

Thought-provoking

[Obrien]

A new video I made, to share during this holiday season, so we all remember how important it is to pay tithing, no matter the cost!

I actually just watched your video for the first time a moment ago.

Just...wow.

It makes me see LDSCo in a new light.

Maybe the top leaders (RMN, DHO, HBE) actually ARE evil.

I didn't really consider that as a possibility until you juxtaposed the images of those in poverty with the words of LDSCo leaders. Those demands to PAY at all cost, while simultaneously building a "fortune" in FRNs, by not relieving present needs, is disheartening.

[Aprhys]

Awesome video! How would it be if the saints decided that through common consent we stopped paying our tithing so that the leaders can build another mall, personal firearms training facility, gawdy chandelier or development acreage in Florida and gave our portion of the "widows mite" to those who truly need it? I wonder if the blessings of heaven would actually then be opened?

[Silver Pie]

largerthanlife wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:01 pm
Do people on welfare pay tithing? Free housing and free food but they don't pay any tithing?

This probably has zero to do with what you were thinking, but the apostles get free housing and free food - not just the bare necessities, but the highest quality they can get, I'm told - and they are exempt from paying tithing. They live pretty high on the hog on the welfare they get.

[Mindfields]

"And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor."

How is this not a description of the Mormon church?

[largerthanlife]

largerthanlife wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:01 pm
Do people on welfare pay tithing? Free housing and free food but they don't pay any tithing?

This probably has zero to do with what you were thinking, but the apostles get free housing and free food - not just the bare necessities, but the highest quality they can get, I'm told - and they are exempt from paying tithing. They live pretty high on the hog on the welfare they get.

Yes another good question. Why are people not paying tithing on all the free stuff that they receive?

[tdj]

largerthanlife wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:01 pm
Do people on welfare pay tithing? Free housing and free food but they don't pay any tithing?

This probably has zero to do with what you were thinking, but the apostles get free housing and free food - not just the bare necessities, but the highest quality they can get, I'm told - and they are exempt from paying tithing. They live pretty high on the hog on the welfare they get.

Yes another good question. Why are people not paying tithing on all the free stuff that they receive?

I don't really think it's free. They spent years before being called to their current positions having jobs and paying tithes just like the rest of us. So maybe they are simply reaping what they have sown all those years.
As far as government welfare goes, I think the same rule applies. At least in some cases people work their tails off for years, and due to no fault of their own, such as a crappy president in office, they lose their job and can't find work for sometimes years at a time. That's what happened in our case. So as far as I'm concerned, we are simply getting some of those hard earned taxes back.
We also had an incident with the state abducting our child and costing us thousands of dollars in attorneys fees. When we wanted to sue, we had a hard time finding a lawyer willing to take the case. They all felt bad for us and sympathized with our plight, but the moment CPS was mentioned, they ran for the hills, so to speak. Between the theft of our income, and the theft of our children, they owe us big time. It'll take many more years before they can pay us back, and we plan on squeezing out every possible dollar we're owed.

[righteousrepublic]

"And the Gentiles are lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and have stumbled because of the greatness of their stumbling block, that they have built up many churches; nevertheless, they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning, that they may get gain and grind upon the face of the poor."

How is this not a description of the Mormon church?

Then I suppose you want no part of the celestial kingdom. God has streets paved of gold, and the celestial kingdom, this earth when renewed will be beyond description in beauty.

I can't believe the level of complaining here on the forum.

[Matchmaker]

largerthanlife wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:01 pm
Do people on welfare pay tithing? Free housing and free food but they don't pay any tithing?

This probably has zero to do with what you were thinking, but the apostles get free housing and free food - not just the bare necessities, but the highest quality they can get, I'm told - and they are exempt from paying tithing. They live pretty high on the hog on the welfare they get.

I don't believe that any of the Apostles get free housing or free food. They get a generous salary or stipend and insurance benefits commensurate with working for a corporation, but I believe they manage their own financial affairs beyond that. I know Brother Bednar gets food at Costco now and then. Many of them own very nice homes in close proximity to one another north of Salt Lake City. Most of them were quite well-to-do before they were even called to be Apostles, so the Church stipend is probably just pin money to them anyway. They won't get rich, nor stay rich, off of it.

[Thinker]

largerthanlife wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:01 pm
Do people on welfare pay tithing? Free housing and free food but they don't pay any tithing?

This probably has zero to do with what you were thinking, but the apostles get free housing and free food - not just the bare necessities, but the highest quality they can get, I'm told - and they are exempt from paying tithing. They live pretty high on the hog on the welfare they get.

I don't believe that any of the Apostles get free housing or free food. They get a generous salary or stipend and insurance benefits commensurate with working for a corporation, but I believe they manage their own financial affairs beyond that. I know Brother Bednar gets food at Costco now and then. Many of them own very nice homes in close proximity to one another north of Salt Lake City. Most of them were quite well-to-do before they were even called to be Apostles, so the Church stipend is probably just pin money to them anyway. They won't get rich, nor stay rich, off of it.

How do you know?
You don’t - because despite receiving sacred tithes and demanding members be subject to inquiry in tithing settlements and temple recommend interviews, they are dishonest and keep money secret.

I do know - because my husband worked for the church - that they order all kinds of special food requests - and they paid no money - it was simply ordered and taken to them.

[Thinker]

Awesome video! How would it be if the saints decided that through common consent we stopped paying our tithing so that the leaders can build another mall, personal firearms training facility, gawdy chandelier or development acreage in Florida and gave our portion of the "widows mite" to those who truly need it? I wonder if the blessings of heaven would actually then be opened?

We pay tithes - not to the financially corrupt church - but to those in need.

Charity organizations who have nothing to hide, don’t hide finances like the lds church does.
https://www.charitynavigator.org/

[Matchmaker]

largerthanlife wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:01 pm
Do people on welfare pay tithing? Free housing and free food but they don't pay any tithing?

This probably has zero to do with what you were thinking, but the apostles get free housing and free food - not just the bare necessities, but the highest quality they can get, I'm told - and they are exempt from paying tithing. They live pretty high on the hog on the welfare they get.

I don't believe that any of the Apostles get free housing or free food. They get a generous salary or stipend and insurance benefits commensurate with working for a corporation, but I believe they manage their own financial affairs beyond that. I know Brother Bednar gets food at Costco now and then. Many of them own very nice homes in close proximity to one another north of Salt Lake City. Most of them were quite well-to-do before they were even called to be Apostles, so the Church stipend is probably just pin money to them anyway. They won't get rich, nor stay rich, off of it.

How do you know?
You don’t - because despite receiving sacred tithes and demanding members be subject to inquiry in tithing settlements and temple recommend interviews, they are dishonest and keep money secret.

I do know - because my husband worked for the church - that they order all kinds of special food requests - and they paid no money - it was simply ordered and taken to them.

I did not realize they got free lunch everyday in the Church Office Building. That's a nice perk, and one which some better companies have been known to provide for their Executives. I know the Nauvoo Cafe on the bottom floor of the Joseph Smith Building makes great lunches and often prepares lunches for the GA's.