Pay your tithing, Obey Authority

[JohnnyL]

At the beginning of the year, I had $0. At the end of the year, I had $100,000. I think I increased $100,000 over that year. Am I incorrect?

The prophets aren't prophets anymore?

That would be correct. Your increase is 100,000 you pay a 10,000 tithe. But your increase isn’t your income it’s the difference in your net worth from year to year.

That’s what the revelation states and what it was understood to mean at the time it was revealed.

Either my understanding is incorrect (if so please demonstrate how) or we have received a new revelation changing the law of the tithe (if so please show me this revelation) but how is one anti-tithe if they believe in the definition of tithing given by the Lord?

"Sorry, bishop, here's $10--my house payment is $4,000/month, my Bentley loan and upkeep is $2,000/month, my Armani suits are $2,000/ month, restaurant bills come out to $1,000/month, ... So, even though I'm making $150,000, my net increase is $100." Hmm...

I don’t think you understand what net worth means. Your assets are apart of your net worth. Do actually not understand what net worth is or are you just pretending to be stupid to get a rise out of people?

Why do you think people used to pay tithing with cows and other physical items?

Silas, you're out of step with the others here, please catch up.

Annual net increase is not paying on current assets, whether money or cows. Heck, no one even does that with tithing now!

[JohnnyL]

The faith promoting stories about paying tithing first, and your other expenses miraculously take care of themselves - complete rubbish.

I testify to the contrary, as many have and many can.

Why do you doubt people's experiences and testimonies?

Would you have doubted 10 years ago?

[JohnnyL]

And then they need to go to their Bishop and get a voucher for a month's supply of food from the Bishop's Storehouse and another voucher to get clothes, shoes, bedding and furniture from Deseret Industries.

You got it! This is how it works correctly.

Tithing is a wonderful blessing. I challenge all you anti-tithers (because that's what it boils down to) to pay it in faith, then add to it a generous fast offering. Then, after doing that a year, come back and complain. I'll hear you better. Can you pay the same amount in fast offering as you do tithing?

I wish I could afford to pay a large fast offering to my Ward every month in addition to a full tithe, but we can't. There is little left after paying mortgage, utilities, insurance {medical, dental, eye, house, and car insurance}, deductibles and co-pays on insurance, which came to $1,800 out of pocket for me in the last 2 months, groceries, gas for our cars, and minimal Christmas gifts for kids, mom, close family, and grandson, (nothing for hubby and I this year, which we are OK with}, and some in retirement savings. We have no car payments and no credit card payments. We also have no 401K either.

I would love to know what it would feel like to be able to give a large fast offering every month. It's just not possible for us at this time.

I have a question. Does a fast offering have to be monetary or can it be payed in useful items for the needy dispensed by the bishop?

We've done both. I see (currently) the biggest difference mostly in that it's harder to keep up with when it's not monetary. Just my experiences.

[Silas]

That would be correct. Your increase is 100,000 you pay a 10,000 tithe. But your increase isn’t your income it’s the difference in your net worth from year to year.

That’s what the revelation states and what it was understood to mean at the time it was revealed.

Either my understanding is incorrect (if so please demonstrate how) or we have received a new revelation changing the law of the tithe (if so please show me this revelation) but how is one anti-tithe if they believe in the definition of tithing given by the Lord?

"Sorry, bishop, here's $10--my house payment is $4,000/month, my Bentley loan and upkeep is $2,000/month, my Armani suits are $2,000/ month, restaurant bills come out to $1,000/month, ... So, even though I'm making $150,000, my net increase is $100." Hmm...

I don’t think you understand what net worth means. Your assets are apart of your net worth. Do actually not understand what net worth is or are you just pretending to be stupid to get a rise out of people?

Why do you think people used to pay tithing with cows and other physical items?

Silas, you're out of step with the others here, please catch up.

Annual net increase is not paying on current assets, whether money or cows. Heck, no one even does that with tithing now!

Don’t know what to tell you guy. Increase annually is the difference in your net worth from year to year. Net worth includes your assets so if you need to sell the Bentley to pay your tithing then you should.

That’s what the revelation states. If my understanding is wrong then please demonstrate how and why. If we’ve been given a new revelation changing the law of the tithe then please direct me to where I can find it.

Otherwise I go with the revelation that says a tenth of your increase annually.

[righteousrepublic]

You got it! This is how it works correctly.

Tithing is a wonderful blessing. I challenge all you anti-tithers (because that's what it boils down to) to pay it in faith, then add to it a generous fast offering. Then, after doing that a year, come back and complain. I'll hear you better. Can you pay the same amount in fast offering as you do tithing?

I wish I could afford to pay a large fast offering to my Ward every month in addition to a full tithe, but we can't. There is little left after paying mortgage, utilities, insurance {medical, dental, eye, house, and car insurance}, deductibles and co-pays on insurance, which came to $1,800 out of pocket for me in the last 2 months, groceries, gas for our cars, and minimal Christmas gifts for kids, mom, close family, and grandson, (nothing for hubby and I this year, which we are OK with}, and some in retirement savings. We have no car payments and no credit card payments. We also have no 401K either.

I would love to know what it would feel like to be able to give a large fast offering every month. It's just not possible for us at this time.

I have a question. Does a fast offering have to be monetary or can it be payed in useful items for the needy dispensed by the bishop?

We've done both. I see (currently) the biggest difference mostly in that it's harder to keep up with when it's not monetary. Just my experiences.

Is there a percentage attached to fast offerings as does tithing? I guess there is no difference between a five dollar package of flour than a five dollar bill payed.
I was just thinking that the five dollar bill could end up in SL whereas a package of flour could go to a family in the ward boundaries. Am I mistaken? Or does a fast offering go to other than charity?

[JohnnyL]

"Sorry, bishop, here's $10--my house payment is $4,000/month, my Bentley loan and upkeep is $2,000/month, my Armani suits are $2,000/ month, restaurant bills come out to $1,000/month, ... So, even though I'm making $150,000, my net increase is $100." Hmm...

I don’t think you understand what net worth means. Your assets are apart of your net worth. Do actually not understand what net worth is or are you just pretending to be stupid to get a rise out of people?

Why do you think people used to pay tithing with cows and other physical items?

Silas, you're out of step with the others here, please catch up.

Annual net increase is not paying on current assets, whether money or cows. Heck, no one even does that with tithing now!

Don’t know what to tell you guy. Increase annually is the difference in your net worth from year to year. Net worth includes your assets so if you need to sell the Bentley to pay your tithing then you should.

That’s what the revelation states. If my understanding is wrong then please demonstrate how and why. If we’ve been given a new revelation changing the law of the tithe then please direct me to where I can find it.

Otherwise I go with the revelation that says a tenth of your increase annually.

The whole point is to buy the Bentley, so I don't have to pay tithing. The Bentley is an asset, but it's also a huge debit, too. Is that hard to understand?

Do you think the 15 have discussed this over the past decades? Do you think they are entitled to revelation, or just Joseph Smith was?

[JohnnyL]

I wish I could afford to pay a large fast offering to my Ward every month in addition to a full tithe, but we can't. There is little left after paying mortgage, utilities, insurance {medical, dental, eye, house, and car insurance}, deductibles and co-pays on insurance, which came to $1,800 out of pocket for me in the last 2 months, groceries, gas for our cars, and minimal Christmas gifts for kids, mom, close family, and grandson, (nothing for hubby and I this year, which we are OK with}, and some in retirement savings. We have no car payments and no credit card payments. We also have no 401K either.

I would love to know what it would feel like to be able to give a large fast offering every month. It's just not possible for us at this time.

I have a question. Does a fast offering have to be monetary or can it be payed in useful items for the needy dispensed by the bishop?

We've done both. I see (currently) the biggest difference mostly in that it's harder to keep up with when it's not monetary. Just my experiences.

Is there a percentage attached to fast offerings as does tithing? I guess there is no difference between a five dollar package of flour than a five dollar bill payed.
I was just thinking that the five dollar bill could end up in SL whereas a package of flour could go to a family in the ward boundaries. Am I mistaken? Or does a fast offering go to other than charity?

Funds are to be used by the ward first, then any surplus by the stake. So I'd say not much. Just that if you're donating flour, you're thinking you know what people need and want, when it could be something else. (The RS president sits down and makes the food list with each family, according to its wants and needs.)

[Silas]

I don’t think you understand what net worth means. Your assets are apart of your net worth. Do actually not understand what net worth is or are you just pretending to be stupid to get a rise out of people?

Why do you think people used to pay tithing with cows and other physical items?

Silas, you're out of step with the others here, please catch up.

Annual net increase is not paying on current assets, whether money or cows. Heck, no one even does that with tithing now!

Don’t know what to tell you guy. Increase annually is the difference in your net worth from year to year. Net worth includes your assets so if you need to sell the Bentley to pay your tithing then you should.

That’s what the revelation states. If my understanding is wrong then please demonstrate how and why. If we’ve been given a new revelation changing the law of the tithe then please direct me to where I can find it.

Otherwise I go with the revelation that says a tenth of your increase annually.

The whole point is to buy the Bentley, so I don't have to pay tithing. The Bentley is an asset, but it's also a huge debit, too. Is that hard to understand?

Do you think the 15 have discussed this over the past decades? Do you think they are entitled to revelation, or just Joseph Smith was?

Once again, either my understanding of the revelation is incorrect, (If so, then please explain to me how and why) Or we have received a new revelation from the Lord where he has changed his previous definition of the law of tithing. If you state that this has happened then I would like to see it. According to the laws of the church a new revelation would need to be presented for a sustaining vote to be binding upon the church.

Or is your position that church leaders are infallible and no matter what they say it is always right even if it contradicts previous revelations given by the Lord?

If that is the case I’m going to need you to open up the scriptures and walk me through that.

[righteousrepublic]

I have a question. Does a fast offering have to be monetary or can it be payed in useful items for the needy dispensed by the bishop?

We've done both. I see (currently) the biggest difference mostly in that it's harder to keep up with when it's not monetary. Just my experiences.

Is there a percentage attached to fast offerings as does tithing? I guess there is no difference between a five dollar package of flour than a five dollar bill payed.
I was just thinking that the five dollar bill could end up in SL whereas a package of flour could go to a family in the ward boundaries. Am I mistaken? Or does a fast offering go to other than charity?

Funds are to be used by the ward first, then any surplus by the stake. So I'd say not much. Just that if you're donating flour, you're thinking you know what people need and want, when it could be something else. (The RS president sits down and makes the food list with each family, according to its wants and needs.)

So, simply call the RS pres and ask what food items are needed, pick one and pay it as a fast. Win-win

[JohnnyL]

We paid the same tithing as fast offering. We couldn't afford it, but we were better off than others in the ward and stake. I prayed about it, and the Spirit said do it.

Out of the blue, a few things happened, like my salary got raised, so we actually could afford it.

That's the condensed version.

I won't tell everyone to just up and do it. I will say that miracles happened, and lives (including ours) were blessed. Pray about it. If there's a time, with faith and desire, the Lord will work miracles to bless.

///
Similar things with tithing, keeping promises, and business.

Most of my jobs have been miracles, very easy ones for God, very difficult ones for me to see ahead of time. My wife and daughters have the same experience, work/ jobs the same way. We would be much, much poorer except for paying tithes and offerings.

Especially one move. By industry standards and past experience, it would have been impossible. By another miracle, at almost the last minute, we succeeded and always had enough for the time we needed to be there; without it, we would have been bankrupt within a month. That miracle resulted from a few things that happened a few years before, that at the time seemed like monetary curses that would have been easy to blame God for.

Then more miracles for the next job.

I have no doubt those many blessings came because of tithing, tithing as the current prophets have explained it.

Lol, I'm wondering now if we need to pray and change some more things in faith...

[JohnnyL]

We've done both. I see (currently) the biggest difference mostly in that it's harder to keep up with when it's not monetary. Just my experiences.

Is there a percentage attached to fast offerings as does tithing? I guess there is no difference between a five dollar package of flour than a five dollar bill payed.
I was just thinking that the five dollar bill could end up in SL whereas a package of flour could go to a family in the ward boundaries. Am I mistaken? Or does a fast offering go to other than charity?

Funds are to be used by the ward first, then any surplus by the stake. So I'd say not much. Just that if you're donating flour, you're thinking you know what people need and want, when it could be something else. (The RS president sits down and makes the food list with each family, according to its wants and needs.)

So, simply call the RS pres and ask what food items are needed, pick one and pay it as a fast. Win-win

If you can match the Church's bishop storehouse wholesale buying prices, maybe so.

[Aprhys]

The faith promoting stories about paying tithing first, and your other expenses miraculously take care of themselves - complete rubbish.

I testify to the contrary, as many have and many can.

Why do you doubt people's experiences and testimonies?

Would you have doubted 10 years ago?

Because I have the opposite experience. I paid tithing for decades and when I decided to stop paying I went from a 75k job to a 120k job. So according to your theory when I stopped paying tithing I was blessed with a much better financial situation.

[ajax]

That would be correct. Your increase is 100,000 you pay a 10,000 tithe. But your increase isn’t your income it’s the difference in your net worth from year to year.

That’s what the revelation states and what it was understood to mean at the time it was revealed.

Either my understanding is incorrect (if so please demonstrate how) or we have received a new revelation changing the law of the tithe (if so please show me this revelation) but how is one anti-tithe if they believe in the definition of tithing given by the Lord?

"Sorry, bishop, here's $10--my house payment is $4,000/month, my Bentley loan and upkeep is $2,000/month, my Armani suits are $2,000/ month, restaurant bills come out to $1,000/month, ... So, even though I'm making $150,000, my net increase is $100." Hmm...

Not your stewardship to worry about.

You might be right. Ultimately, it's the Lord's. And before that, his apostles and prophets.

"I don't care, President Benson, President Hunter, President Hinckley, President Monson, President Nelson, President..., what you clearly said and taught. I decided to stick with what I think Joseph Smith said." )

So I believe you saw the fallacy of "net increase", which was the point of the post.

It's usually not most of our stewardship whether anyone does anything wrong. Yet here we are, denying the apostles and prophets their stewardships. Ironic.

Their stewardship is to collect, not micro-manage the stewardship of others. Here is a fun story from BY:

"A number of revelations were given on the same day. The brethren wished me to go among the Churches, and find out what surplus property the people had with which to forward the building of the Temple we were commencing at Far West. I accordingly went from place to place through the country. Before I started, I asked brother Joseph, “Who shall be the judge of what is surplus property?” Said he, “Let them be the judges themselves, for I care not if they do not give a single dime. So far as I am concerned, I do not want anything they have.”

Then I replied, “I will go and ask them for their surplus property;” and I did so; I found the people said they were willing to do about as they were counseled, but, upon asking them about their surplus property, most of the men who owned land and cattle would say, “I have got so many hundred acres of land, and I have got so many boys, and I want each one of them to have eighty acres, therefore this is not surplus property.” Again, “I have got so many girls, and I do not believe I shall be able to give them more than forty acres each.” “Well, you have got two or three hundred acres left.” “Yes, but I have a brother-in-law coming on, and he will depend on me for a living; my wife's nephew is also coming on, he is poor, and I shall have to furnish him a farm after he arrives here.” I would go on to the next one, and he would have more land and cattle than he could make use of to advantage. It is a laughable idea, but is nevertheless true, men would tell me they were young and beginning the world, and would say, “We have no children, but our prospects are good, and we think we shall have a family of children, and if we do, we want to give them eighty acres of land each; we have no surplus property.” “How many cattle have you?” “So many.” “How many horses, &c?” “So many, but I have made provisions for all these, and I have use for everything I have got.”

Some were disposed to do right with their surplus property, and once in a while you would find a man who had a cow which he considered surplus, but generally she was of the class that would kick a person's hat off, or eyes out, or the wolves had eaten off her teats. You would once in a while find a man who had a horse that he considered surplus, but at the same time he had the ringbone, was broken-winded, spavined in both legs, had the poll evil at one end of the neck and a fistula at the other, and both knees sprung.

This is the description of surplus property that some would offer to the Lord. Such have been the feelings of a great many men. They would come to me and say, “Brother Brigham, I want to pay my tithing; please come outside here, I wish to show you a horse I have got. I want to raise fifty dollars on this horse, and the balance I am willing to turn in on tithing. If you will pay me twenty dollars in money, ten in store pay, and so much on another man's tithing, and so much on my own, you shall have the horse for eighty dollars;” when I could get as good a one for forty. I make no such trades. Some of our brethren would actually take a horse worth no more than forty dollars, pay fifty and give credit on tithing for thirty.

I mention these things to illustrate the feelings of many of the people, for they do not understand the spirit they are of. When a man wishes to give anything, let him give the best he has got. The Lord has given to me all I possess; I have nothing in reality, not a single dime of it is mine. You may ask, “Do you feel as you say?” Yes, I actually do. The coat I have on my back is not mine, and never was; the Lord put it in my possession honorably, and I wear it; but if He wishes for it, and all there is under it, He is welcome to the whole. I do not own a house, or a single foot of land, a horse, mule, carriage, or wagon, nor wife, nor child, but what the Lord gave me, and if He wants them, He can take them at His pleasure, whether He speaks for them, or takes them without speaking. Should this be the feeling to animate every bosom? It should. What have you to consecrate that is actually your own? Nothing. The time will come when the people will look back on their first experience, and they will realize that that which they now consider hardship was their greatest blessing. They are called to leave their homes, their parents, their families, and their native country. They are called away by the providence of God to what they now consider to be sorrow; but it is not so, it is only an experience put into the possession of the Saints, that they may know the blessings of eternity. There is no being in eternity about whom we have ever read or heard, but what has suffered in like manner as we have, for it was by suffering they had to gain their exaltation, as you and I will have to do."

http://jod.mrm.org/2/298

There are two approaches here? What do you glean from this?

[righteousrepublic]

Is there a percentage attached to fast offerings as does tithing? I guess there is no difference between a five dollar package of flour than a five dollar bill payed.
I was just thinking that the five dollar bill could end up in SL whereas a package of flour could go to a family in the ward boundaries. Am I mistaken? Or does a fast offering go to other than charity?

Funds are to be used by the ward first, then any surplus by the stake. So I'd say not much. Just that if you're donating flour, you're thinking you know what people need and want, when it could be something else. (The RS president sits down and makes the food list with each family, according to its wants and needs.)

So, simply call the RS pres and ask what food items are needed, pick one and pay it as a fast. Win-win

If you can match the Church's bishop storehouse wholesale buying prices, maybe so.

Charity never faileth. Since there is no set percentage of what is to be paid in fast offerings, it really matters not what the bishop's storehouse charges. Are you saying that donated food as a fast goes to the storehouse to be sold at a different price? Where is the charity in that? Similarly and by comparison and example only, donated food is donated freely without cost as is paying in cash. Does money go to the storehouse and get interest added onto it? Or would they reduce a five down to four, send out the four and keep the extra dollar? What am I missing here?

[Thinker]

At the beginning of the year, I had $0. At the end of the year, I had $100,000. I think I increased $100,000 over that year. Am I incorrect?

The prophets aren't prophets anymore?

Again...

Changing scripture from what it states (increase) to mean “income” to get more money, is not of Christ. The reason God commanded tithe be based on increase is shown in the following example:

• 2 men earn the exact same income amount.
  1 man is the sole provider of a family of 7 and after paying bills has no increase left.
  2nd man lives with his parents who pay all his bills, so all of his income is increase.
  Yet, the church demand$ the $ame amount from each man - thereby causing the 1st family to be poor. Christ was about alleviating poverty and suffering - not causing more.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (conveniently ignored in lds curriculums) states that tithing collectors are to give at least 1/3 of TITHES to those in need. Christ asked those who can, to give much more.

While we are often pressured and shamed into giving “honest tithes,” church leaders keep money dark and secret, though Oaks did admit no tithes go to the poor. Funds intended for the poor go to the corporate empire of mormon leaders and we have no clue or say in how it’s spent. We do know the church had some elaborate malls built, and a list of greedy wordly companies using the name of Jesus Christ in vain. Meanwhile, about 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving. Who do TITHES belong to? God. And how do we love God? By loving the least of these.

Here's the core of the problem:

Do I continue to hold the old way, which I believe definitely favors my thinking; or, do I go with the changes I believe multiple prophets and apostles have sustained and taught, which I believe don't favor me?

What would Christ have you do? Neglect your children and/or the poor to pay a financially corrupt church - just for the praise of being considered “temple worthy”?

What amount did Christ tell us to pay? He never stated an exact amount. Why? Maybe because he taught a higher law that trusts us to give when, how and what we can. And by the way, did Christ demand we pay tithes in US dollars? Lol. They didn’t even exist back in his time.

There have been times when I’ve been asked spiritually to give to those in need- a lot - like more than I thought I could physically, emotionally & financially. But I went forward and was blessed. Now I’m not suggesting that always works or is easy, & there definitely needs to some common sense applied, but I do believe when I follow the Spirit, things work out in the big picture. And I also want to emphasize the need of caring for our own family, 1st and foremost - that is solely our own responsibility - and for which we’re most accountable.

One more thought, Johnny, especially considering your ability to see deeper meaning... There’s another way to consider tithing, though I do believe it’s for helping those in need. “Without a parable spake he not unto them.” While commandments like “thou shalt not steal” are literal, many scriptures are symbolic - in parable form. (The talking donkey is a good example - donkeys carry humans; as do women thus they represent women.) What does God want most from us? Money? Lol No. God wants our hearts, minds and souls - because really we are children of God. It is theorized that we only use a small part of our brains’ potentials - maybe 10%? If we give that to God, then God will “open up the windows of heaven” and our potential can better be realized. Our potential is the effectiveness of our love toward God, others and self.

[Matchmaker]

And then they need to go to their Bishop and get a voucher for a month's supply of food from the Bishop's Storehouse and another voucher to get clothes, shoes, bedding and furniture from Deseret Industries.

You got it! This is how it works correctly.

Tithing is a wonderful blessing. I challenge all you anti-tithers (because that's what it boils down to) to pay it in faith, then add to it a generous fast offering. Then, after doing that a year, come back and complain. I'll hear you better. Can you pay the same amount in fast offering as you do tithing?

I wish I could afford to pay a large fast offering to my Ward every month in addition to a full tithe, but we can't. There is little left after paying mortgage, utilities, insurance {medical, dental, eye, house, and car insurance}, deductibles and co-pays on insurance, which came to $1,800 out of pocket for me in the last 2 months, groceries, gas for our cars, and minimal Christmas gifts for kids, mom, close family, and grandson, (nothing for hubby and I this year, which we are OK with}, and some in retirement savings. We have no car payments and no credit card payments. We also have no 401K either.

I would love to know what it would feel like to be able to give a large fast offering every month. It's just not possible for us at this time.

I have a question. Does a fast offering have to be monetary or can it be payed in useful items for the needy dispensed by the bishop?

I believe it has to be paid in money.

[Serragon]

I have a question. Does a fast offering have to be monetary or can it be payed in useful items for the needy dispensed by the bishop?

We've done both. I see (currently) the biggest difference mostly in that it's harder to keep up with when it's not monetary. Just my experiences.

Is there a percentage attached to fast offerings as does tithing? I guess there is no difference between a five dollar package of flour than a five dollar bill payed.
I was just thinking that the five dollar bill could end up in SL whereas a package of flour could go to a family in the ward boundaries. Am I mistaken? Or does a fast offering go to other than charity?

Funds are to be used by the ward first, then any surplus by the stake. So I'd say not much. Just that if you're donating flour, you're thinking you know what people need and want, when it could be something else. (The RS president sits down and makes the food list with each family, according to its wants and needs.)

It is no longer the case that fast offerings stay in the local ward/stake.

All fast offerings are immediately pulled back to Salt Lake, just like tithing, and form one large fast offering fund for the whole church. Any fast offering expenditures come from this large fund. So any offering you make is immediately available for use by any Bishop in the Church.

[Serragon]

You got it! This is how it works correctly.

Tithing is a wonderful blessing. I challenge all you anti-tithers (because that's what it boils down to) to pay it in faith, then add to it a generous fast offering. Then, after doing that a year, come back and complain. I'll hear you better. Can you pay the same amount in fast offering as you do tithing?

It isnt "anti tithe" to pay for your needs and kids food before you figure out your actual increase.

Preaching to pay your tithes at the expense of leaving your kids to go hungry is as bad as preaching that people ought not to take their kids for medical attention and just "pray the sickness away". I'm all about faith and miracles, but the Lord expects us to do all we can for ourselves and He will help us the rest of the way. Even the GAs go to the hospital when they are sick. Even so, the Lord does not command us to watch our children die so we can put money in the collection plate. That is a gross bastardization of the law of tithing.

In your opinion, it might be.

I'm concerned about the Lord's opinion, and it seems that He comes through.

How is it "leaving your kids to go hungry"? You know about welfare, right?

You don't believe in "pray the sickness away"?

The Lord has stated that it is on our "increase" that we are to pay tithes. Increase means after we have factored in all costs associated with living and making that increase possible. The scriptures are clear that the tithing paid was supposed to be "annual increase". In other words, after your costs are paid, whatever is leftover is your increase. The doctrine and covenants as well as the other books of scripture all state it is on "increase" that we are to pay tithing on as well.

I, too, think this is the correct interpretation.

D&C 119 is the law of the tithe for our dispensation. It is very simple and succinct. Here is what we learn from that revelation:

1. Tithing begins by donating ALL of your surplus to the Church.
2. After that initial donation, tithing consists of a tenth part of your increase.
3. Increase is to be evaluated annually.
4. The Lord states that this revelation is from Him
5. The Lord states this will be a standing law unto us forever.
6. Verse 2 states the purposes of tithing which are all for administrative things (not welfare)

Looking at this in its entirety, it is very difficult to understand this as gross salary or income. Your baseline for evaluating increase is set by step 1. That baseline includes your housing, food, utilities, etc. as those are not part of surplus.

Your tenth part in step 2 is calculated on the annual increase between that baseline and what you have at the end of year. That post-tithed value then becomes the new baseline for next year.

We should not be trying to make up our own definitions, as Christ Himself said that this law as stated will not change. You may think you are being more righteous by paying on your gross each year or requiring people with no increase to tithe and then receive welfare from the Church, but this rewriting God's law.

It is better to try to be obedient to what the Lord has commanded than try and create your own commandments. If you wish to donate more than a tenth of your increase, the church has many different options you can donate to. You can also donate to other charities or directly to those in need. But we should be very careful that we are not substituting our own law in place of God's, especially when He has told us unequivocally what His Law is and that it will not change.

As to the idea that some might spend more than they need in order to avoid paying tithes... Who cares? Teach the principle and let them govern themselves. Those with ears to hear will hear. The converted will strive to do what the Lord has commanded.

[Matchmaker]

An underlying theme I see in all of these posts is a deep desire that all in the Church be treated fairly and their basic needs be provided for.

It sounds like we are nearly ready for the Lord to bring back the Law of Consecration AKA the United Order. The Lord may think it is time for us to start building the New Jerusalem. I expect to see something good start happening in 2020.

[Serragon]

An underlying theme I see in all of these posts is a deep desire that all in the Church be treated fairly and their basic needs be provided for.

It sounds like we are nearly ready for the Lord to bring back the Law of Consecration AKA the United Order. The Lord may think it is time for us to start building the New Jerusalem. I expect to see something good start happening in 2020.

It is my understanding that the United Order was an attempted implementation of the Law of Consecration and not the thing itself. I think it incorrect to say AKA.

The Law of Consecration is currently in effect and all endowed members covenant to live it. This is an individual covenant, not a social one. There is nothing preventing each endowed member from currently living this law to the fullest.

We may never see the United Order again, just like we may never see home teaching again. But the Law of Consecration is and always will be with us in this dispensation.

[Lexew1899]

I'm not too surprised Christ will elect to live in Jehovah-Shammah, or Jerusalem, instead of the New Jerusalem in Zion. We have the fullness of the gospel and don't live it, and destroyed the United Order, because of avarice and greed.

[JohnnyL]

The faith promoting stories about paying tithing first, and your other expenses miraculously take care of themselves - complete rubbish.

I testify to the contrary, as many have and many can.

Why do you doubt people's experiences and testimonies?

Would you have doubted 10 years ago?

Because I have the opposite experience. I paid tithing for decades and when I decided to stop paying I went from a 75k job to a 120k job. So according to your theory when I stopped paying tithing I was blessed with a much better financial situation.

If the Spirit taught you that, sure.

[JohnnyL]

Oh well. You're your own stewards.

[righteousrepublic]

Oh well. You're your own stewards.

What does the Lord say will happen to those who will not pay their tithing?

[JohnnyL]

First of all, they can't go to the temple worthily. They can go, but going to the temple when they sin willingly and knowingly, it won't end well for them. (And yes, that is what a bishop and stake president have stewardship over, to judge that.)

Then there's that other stuff...