LDS Freedom Forum

The East Wind wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 9:48 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 9:45 pm

The East Wind wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 9:23 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 7:35 pm

Wow, I'm impressed. Your rants have done nothing but further the negative way so many people think about cops - so points to you for that - for actually promoting the idea that most cops are so utterly full of themselves, so arrogant, that they can't even get the job done properly (although I highly doubt that was your intention - unintended consequences and all).

You have exactly zero idea of what I know/don't know - of what my experience is/isn't - of who I know/don't know - so maybe check yourself there, Mirkwood. You really come across as a very pompous jerk, in case no one has had the balls to let you know that. If you're trying to impress people - fail. No one with any sense or integrity is impressed by such feigned bravado.

As a side-note, it's actually quite humorous that you chose to attack me and my comment that the Chandler PD dropped the ball on Charles Vallow's murder (which they did, BTW, 100%) - yet you let all the comments by a couple of other posters on this thread propose and promote the idea that COPS have kidnapped the two children and are holding them against their will. Now THAT is hilarious, yet you just breeze by those comments without attacking the poster suggesting such a ridiculous thing - and you choose instead to pretend you know the first thing about me/what I know in this situation - very telling.

Anyway, the only thing you've accomplished by your excessively high opinions of yourself, and your presumptions and assumptions about me (or anyone else on an internet forum, who you don't know from Adam) is to push me over the line into the 'cops are a$$holes' camp. Well done!

You really get upset when anyone challenges you. I’ve noticed you will call people out with names like the best of them. I’m sure I’ll get it from you with a smart response.

I am curious though - do you ever have anything to add to a discussion or to the topic of any given thread? Can't think of a single time you've actually contributed anything worthwhile to a conversation on LDSFF. So, what exactly is your point of being here? Is it to follow me around trying to "catch" me or something? Do you just enjoy insulting me out of the blue, when I've never even had a conversation with you? 'Cause that's what it seems like your purpose is here - which makes sense, considering....).

So, "The East Wind" - instead of pointlessly following me around the forum and insulting me, what's your take on the subject of the thread?

I believe I’ve responded to 2 of your posts. So if that makes me a follower of yours so be it. As for the other comment I don’t know where you are going with that. I’ve commented a couple times on this thread so you can see my opinion.

Oh, it's been far more than two. Why don't you just put me on your 'foe' list - then you wouldn't have to read all my horrible posts. Really, you should do that - save yourself so much grief.
You remind me very much of another forum member who has been banned (twice) - he was just like you, in fact, hence, me thinking you are him.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 9:54 pm

The East Wind wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 9:48 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 9:45 pm

The East Wind wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 9:23 pm

You really get upset when anyone challenges you. I’ve noticed you will call people out with names like the best of them. I’m sure I’ll get it from you with a smart response.

I am curious though - do you ever have anything to add to a discussion or to the topic of any given thread? Can't think of a single time you've actually contributed anything worthwhile to a conversation on LDSFF. So, what exactly is your point of being here? Is it to follow me around trying to "catch" me or something? Do you just enjoy insulting me out of the blue, when I've never even had a conversation with you? 'Cause that's what it seems like your purpose is here - which makes sense, considering....).

So, "The East Wind" - instead of pointlessly following me around the forum and insulting me, what's your take on the subject of the thread?

I believe I’ve responded to 2 of your posts. So if that makes me a follower of yours so be it. As for the other comment I don’t know where you are going with that. I’ve commented a couple times on this thread so you can see my opinion.

Oh, it's been far more than two. Why don't you just put me on your 'foe' list - then you wouldn't have to read all my horrible posts. Really, you should do that - save yourself so much grief.
You remind me very much of another forum member who has been banned (twice) - he was just like you, in fact, hence, me thinking you are him.

Then who would call you to repentance if I did that?

How do you suppose Lori and Chad are living? Do they have a stack of cash that they are using for living expenses? Because using credit/bank cards would normally be something that is easy to trace. Are they using burner phones? Using their regular cell phones would also be easy to trace. It just makes me wonder how they are living and paying for things - shelter, food, etc. - unless they're holed up in an off-the-grid cabin somewhere with months worth of food storage and water. Not the easiest thing to do in the cold winter months (unless they're in Hawaii, which is one theory).

Lori has buried a few husbands, and Chad has buried one wife - so maybe they both have received a bunch of life insurance pay-outs which they converted to cash to live on? I don't know, but it's possible. It just seems hard for two people, whose faces are everywhere, to entirely disappear in this digital day and age in the U.S. It has also been suggested that members of their cult (AVOW, Rowe, et al) are hiding them or helping them stay out of sight - that wouldn't surprise me either. Anyway, it's interesting to think about.

I feel very bad for those two innocent children and sincerely hope they are alright.

Not sure why ya'll are hatin on Emma Lee....she does have a right to post her opinions about what she thinks is happening...……lots of people are probably checking out this forum to see what the majority think about Chad and the situation he finds himself in......and most of them think it's the craziest, most unbelievable case they have come across in a long while...hopefully some other religious nutcase takes first place soon and the focus will go elsewhere...... I think Emma Lee has a lot of discernment in this area and says what most just think.....at least people can get the idea all of us "Mormons" aren't as whack as they think we are...….we should be sticking to the basics and calling this out as non normal....most Mormons don't think or do the things that have caught up Chad and Lori in what is a real web of intrigue and speculation.

Edit: BTW anyone else notice this thread has almost 18000 views as of now? I find that kinda interesting....just noticed that it was that high......huh...

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 10:15 pm How do you suppose Lori and Chad are living? Do they have a stack of cash that they are using for living expenses? Because using credit/bank cards would normally be something that is easy to trace. Are they using burner phones? Using their regular cell phones would also be easy to trace. It just makes me wonder how they are living and paying for things - shelter, food, etc. - unless they're holed up in an off-the-grid cabin somewhere with months worth of food storage and water. Not the easiest thing to do in the cold winter months (unless they're in Hawaii, which is one theory).

Lori has buried a few husbands, and Chad has buried one wife - so maybe they both have received a bunch of life insurance pay-outs which they converted to cash to live on? I don't know, but it's possible. It just seems hard for two people, whose faces are everywhere, to entirely disappear in this digital day and age in the U.S. It has also been suggested that members of their cult (AVOW, Rowe, et al) are hiding them or helping them stay out of sight - that wouldn't surprise me either. Anyway, it's interesting to think about.

I feel very bad for those two innocent children and sincerely hope they are alright.

When I read this, my first thought was they were living off the grid somewhere, with Chad hunting game, but neither are tough enough, or smart enough for that kind of life. They would have the preppers campout every summer, but people would mostly stop by wal mart for supplies before arriving in their gas filled camper trailers. Not exactly "preparing a people", is it?
They are no doubt hiding out on someone's property, who are either housing them, or keeping their camper stocked wherever they are. It would be interesting to know just how many folks in that fringe group own substantial acreage of property, who all the police have questioned, and how many homes have been checked. I'd like to think the police have done due diligence, but until something suspicious comes back from the autopsies, I guess they have nothing legal to go on.

The East Wind wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 9:23 pm You really get upset when anyone challenges you. I’ve noticed you will call people out with names like the best of them. I’m sure I’ll get it from you with a smart response.

Mic. Drop. Exit stage left.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 7:35 pm
Wow, I'm impressed. Your rants have done nothing but further the negative way so many people think about cops - so points to you for that - for actually promoting the idea that most cops are so utterly full of themselves, so arrogant, that they can't even get the job done properly (although I highly doubt that was your intention - unintended consequences and all).

You have exactly zero idea of what I know/don't know - of what my experience is/isn't - of who I know/don't know - so maybe check yourself there, Mirkwood. You really come across as a very pompous jerk, in case no one has had the balls to let you know that. If you're trying to impress people - fail. No one with any sense or integrity is impressed by such feigned bravado.

As a side-note, it's actually quite humorous that you chose to attack me and my comment that the Chandler PD dropped the ball on Charles Vallow's murder (which they did, BTW, 100%) - yet you let all the comments by a couple of other posters on this thread propose and promote the idea that COPS have kidnapped the two children and are holding them against their will. Now THAT is hilarious, yet you just breeze by those comments without attacking the poster suggesting such a ridiculous thing - and you choose instead to pretend you know the first thing about me/what I know in this situation - very telling.

Anyway, the only thing you've accomplished by your excessively high opinions of yourself, and your presumptions and assumptions about me (or anyone else on an internet forum, who you don't know from Adam) is to push me over the line into the 'cops are a$$holes' camp. Well done!

You don't take it very well when challenged, as was already mentioned. You might take a close look in the mirror while contemplating on that for a bit.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 3:09 pm

mirkwood wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 2:44 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 11:46 am The Chandler PD really dropped the ball on this one. Had they done a proper and thorough investigation right from the start, maybe the only witnesses to this shooting (the two kids) wouldn't now be missing.

Wow, all that from a couple minute news video which featured a brief bodycam showing. Tell me what investigative class you took, I'd like to attend that one. And here I thought I was a good investigator.

Apparently not. Also, no need to get all defensive and take it personally when cops somewhere in the world mess up, Mirkwood. The extreme defensiveness you display every time someone mentions that LE might have performed less than stellar makes you appear silly and immature. I'm not one of the cop-haters on the forum, so chill. Also, I only shared a tiny amount of what I've read on the subject here in this thread - so you assuming everything I know about this is only what was gleaned from the video is showing very poor "investigative" skills on your part (oh the irony...) and is quite presumptuous.

The Chandler PD did not fully investigate Charles' death. They took Lori's and Alex's words at face value, declared it as "self-defense", and that was that - closed. Not my opinion - you can "investigate" to your little heart's content and you'll find that that IS the case. It wasn't until a healthy Alex turned up dead last month, with no apparent cause of death, that they started to take Charles' death seriously and wonder if it wasn't actually self-defense after all. Also of interest, Alex had married a woman who follows Vallow's and Daybell's beliefs (as evidenced by her posts on AVOW), just 10 days before his death. But I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything...

And, not that it's any of your business, but to answer your unwarranted and snarky question - I have a BS in Criminology and Criminal Justice.

I've been reading extensively on this and unfortunately iyam, the killing of Charles vallow was not looked into enough to uncover all the red flags. 5 people were in the home when it happened, 2 were children. 1 was killed, which left lori and alex to give statements. They backed up each other and the police closed the case. If le had looked they would have found motive for his killing being murder, the divorce papers Charles filed a couple of months before his death said she threatened to kill him several times. If le had looked into alex, they would have found his assault, arrest and conviction a couple years earlier against Lori's former husband, tylees father (Also dead) Alex was a hot head, violent type who did Lori's bidding in the past. While hindsight is great, the red flags were there if they'd done more than take the word of the 2 adults at the scene that it was self defense. If they'd looked, they would have fount restraining order against lori, if they'd looked into Charles finances they would have seen that lori had been draining couple's bank accounts, stealing charles property, and if they'd digged further they would have uncovered the affair between lori and chad daybell which her husband Charles suspected but did not have proof. I'd say the marriage 2 weeks after tammys death is damning evidence of that. There's also speculation, but no confirmation yet that ive seen that Charles had 2 million in life insurance. The red flags were there, if a more thorough investigation by chandler pd had taken place, this investigation wouldn't have been wrapped so quickly. We can't say they would've gotten enough to bring charges, but it would have been an open investigation when the other things happened.

tdj wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 5:04 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 10:15 pm How do you suppose Lori and Chad are living? Do they have a stack of cash that they are using for living expenses? Because using credit/bank cards would normally be something that is easy to trace. Are they using burner phones? Using their regular cell phones would also be easy to trace. It just makes me wonder how they are living and paying for things - shelter, food, etc. - unless they're holed up in an off-the-grid cabin somewhere with months worth of food storage and water. Not the easiest thing to do in the cold winter months (unless they're in Hawaii, which is one theory).

Lori has buried a few husbands, and Chad has buried one wife - so maybe they both have received a bunch of life insurance pay-outs which they converted to cash to live on? I don't know, but it's possible. It just seems hard for two people, whose faces are everywhere, to entirely disappear in this digital day and age in the U.S. It has also been suggested that members of their cult (AVOW, Rowe, et al) are hiding them or helping them stay out of sight - that wouldn't surprise me either. Anyway, it's interesting to think about.

I feel very bad for those two innocent children and sincerely hope they are alright.

When I read this, my first thought was they were living off the grid somewhere, with Chad hunting game, but neither are tough enough, or smart enough for that kind of life. They would have the preppers campout every summer, but people would mostly stop by wal mart for supplies before arriving in their gas filled camper trailers. Not exactly "preparing a people", is it?
They are no doubt hiding out on someone's property, who are either housing them, or keeping their camper stocked wherever they are. It would be interesting to know just how many folks in that fringe group own substantial acreage of property, who all the police have questioned, and how many homes have been checked. I'd like to think the police have done due diligence, but until something suspicious comes back from the autopsies, I guess they have nothing legal to go on.

Lori Vallow doesn't look like the type to rough it. I've always said, look at their AVOW network, the ones who might have secluded property and access to cash and a devotion to the predictions of Julie Rowe. A devoted believer follower with some money is how they hide successfully this long. If they don't trust government followers might have cash stashed to give them and make it harder to track. Also if someone else is getting them food, supplies, it's hard to track unless it's known associates. That's why a network like AVOW is a good place to look, because their helpers may never have met chad and lori in person.

jmack wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 7:46 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 3:09 pm

mirkwood wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 2:44 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 11:46 am The Chandler PD really dropped the ball on this one. Had they done a proper and thorough investigation right from the start, maybe the only witnesses to this shooting (the two kids) wouldn't now be missing.

Wow, all that from a couple minute news video which featured a brief bodycam showing. Tell me what investigative class you took, I'd like to attend that one. And here I thought I was a good investigator.

Apparently not. Also, no need to get all defensive and take it personally when cops somewhere in the world mess up, Mirkwood. The extreme defensiveness you display every time someone mentions that LE might have performed less than stellar makes you appear silly and immature. I'm not one of the cop-haters on the forum, so chill. Also, I only shared a tiny amount of what I've read on the subject here in this thread - so you assuming everything I know about this is only what was gleaned from the video is showing very poor "investigative" skills on your part (oh the irony...) and is quite presumptuous.

The Chandler PD did not fully investigate Charles' death. They took Lori's and Alex's words at face value, declared it as "self-defense", and that was that - closed. Not my opinion - you can "investigate" to your little heart's content and you'll find that that IS the case. It wasn't until a healthy Alex turned up dead last month, with no apparent cause of death, that they started to take Charles' death seriously and wonder if it wasn't actually self-defense after all. Also of interest, Alex had married a woman who follows Vallow's and Daybell's beliefs (as evidenced by her posts on AVOW), just 10 days before his death. But I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything...

And, not that it's any of your business, but to answer your unwarranted and snarky question - I have a BS in Criminology and Criminal Justice.

I've been reading extensively on this and unfortunately iyam, the killing of Charles vallow was not looked into enough to uncover all the red flags. 5 people were in the home when it happened, 2 were children. 1 was killed, which left lori and alex to give statements. They backed up each other and the police closed the case. If le had looked they would have found motive for his killing being murder, the divorce papers Charles filed a couple of months before his death said she threatened to kill him several times. If le had looked into alex, they would have found his assault, arrest and conviction a couple years earlier against Lori's former husband, tylees father (Also dead) Alex was a hot head, violent type who did Lori's bidding in the past. While hindsight is great, the red flags were there if they'd done more than take the word of the 2 adults at the scene that it was self defense. If they'd looked, they would have fount restraining order against lori, if they'd looked into Charles finances they would have seen that lori had been draining couple's bank accounts, stealing charles property, and if they'd digged further they would have uncovered the affair between lori and chad daybell which her husband Charles suspected but did not have proof. I'd say the marriage 2 weeks after tammys death is damning evidence of that. There's also speculation, but no confirmation yet that ive seen that Charles had 2 million in life insurance. The red flags were there, if a more thorough investigation by chandler pd had taken place, this investigation wouldn't have been wrapped so quickly. We can't say they would've gotten enough to bring charges, but it would have been an open investigation when the other things happened.

You make several good points about the need for a better investigation at the time of the incident. As it stands now, absolutely nothing will come of this case.

From reading on other forums, it appears the statements given by Lori and Alex indicate that Tylee brought the bat into the room in an attempt to defend Lori from Charles. Charles got control of the bat and at that point Lori took the kids and left. As they were leaving the driveway in a car, they heard gunshots in the house. Alex apparently defended himself from Charles by shooting him. Now, Alex is dead too.

This creates a scenario that makes it all but impossible to secure a conviction. The person doing the shooting is dead, can’t be prosecuted and can’t act as a witness. The other person potentially involved was outside of the house at the time of the shooting. Police would need Alex’s testimony to create a case against Lori and he’s dead. All available witness statements are consistent. So, even if Charles was set up and intentionally killed, there’s no case that would result in a conviction. So, don’t expect to see the police spend resources on this at this point.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 10:15 pm How do you suppose Lori and Chad are living? Do they have a stack of cash that they are using for living expenses? Because using credit/bank cards would normally be something that is easy to trace. Are they using burner phones? Using their regular cell phones would also be easy to trace. It just makes me wonder how they are living and paying for things - shelter, food, etc. - unless they're holed up in an off-the-grid cabin somewhere with months worth of food storage and water. Not the easiest thing to do in the cold winter months (unless they're in Hawaii, which is one theory).

Lori has buried a few husbands, and Chad has buried one wife - so maybe they both have received a bunch of life insurance pay-outs which they converted to cash to live on? I don't know, but it's possible. It just seems hard for two people, whose faces are everywhere, to entirely disappear in this digital day and age in the U.S. It has also been suggested that members of their cult (AVOW, Rowe, et al) are hiding them or helping them stay out of sight - that wouldn't surprise me either. Anyway, it's interesting to think about.

I feel very bad for those two innocent children and sincerely hope they are alright.

I see two options:

- Off grid cabin in the ID wilderness living off preps as they are convinced the tribulations have started and as the “ leaders of The Remnant/ 144K”, they are being hunted by the dark side...( not sure wether to laugh or cry)

- They have committed suicided together in some remote corner of ID so they can be resurrected in a more powerful MP.

mirkwood wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 7:01 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 7:35 pm
Wow, I'm impressed. Your rants have done nothing but further the negative way so many people think about cops - so points to you for that - for actually promoting the idea that most cops are so utterly full of themselves, so arrogant, that they can't even get the job done properly (although I highly doubt that was your intention - unintended consequences and all).

You have exactly zero idea of what I know/don't know - of what my experience is/isn't - of who I know/don't know - so maybe check yourself there, Mirkwood. You really come across as a very pompous jerk, in case no one has had the balls to let you know that. If you're trying to impress people - fail. No one with any sense or integrity is impressed by such feigned bravado.

As a side-note, it's actually quite humorous that you chose to attack me and my comment that the Chandler PD dropped the ball on Charles Vallow's murder (which they did, BTW, 100%) - yet you let all the comments by a couple of other posters on this thread propose and promote the idea that COPS have kidnapped the two children and are holding them against their will. Now THAT is hilarious, yet you just breeze by those comments without attacking the poster suggesting such a ridiculous thing - and you choose instead to pretend you know the first thing about me/what I know in this situation - very telling.

Anyway, the only thing you've accomplished by your excessively high opinions of yourself, and your presumptions and assumptions about me (or anyone else on an internet forum, who you don't know from Adam) is to push me over the line into the 'cops are a$$holes' camp. Well done!

You don't take it very well when challenged, as was already mentioned. You might take a close look in the mirror while contemplating on that for a bit.

It's a shame to see how fragile your ego is, Mirkwood.

jmack wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 7:46 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 3:09 pm

mirkwood wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 2:44 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 11:46 am The Chandler PD really dropped the ball on this one. Had they done a proper and thorough investigation right from the start, maybe the only witnesses to this shooting (the two kids) wouldn't now be missing.

Wow, all that from a couple minute news video which featured a brief bodycam showing. Tell me what investigative class you took, I'd like to attend that one. And here I thought I was a good investigator.

Apparently not. Also, no need to get all defensive and take it personally when cops somewhere in the world mess up, Mirkwood. The extreme defensiveness you display every time someone mentions that LE might have performed less than stellar makes you appear silly and immature. I'm not one of the cop-haters on the forum, so chill. Also, I only shared a tiny amount of what I've read on the subject here in this thread - so you assuming everything I know about this is only what was gleaned from the video is showing very poor "investigative" skills on your part (oh the irony...) and is quite presumptuous.

The Chandler PD did not fully investigate Charles' death. They took Lori's and Alex's words at face value, declared it as "self-defense", and that was that - closed. Not my opinion - you can "investigate" to your little heart's content and you'll find that that IS the case. It wasn't until a healthy Alex turned up dead last month, with no apparent cause of death, that they started to take Charles' death seriously and wonder if it wasn't actually self-defense after all. Also of interest, Alex had married a woman who follows Vallow's and Daybell's beliefs (as evidenced by her posts on AVOW), just 10 days before his death. But I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything...

And, not that it's any of your business, but to answer your unwarranted and snarky question - I have a BS in Criminology and Criminal Justice.

I've been reading extensively on this and unfortunately iyam, the killing of Charles vallow was not looked into enough to uncover all the red flags. 5 people were in the home when it happened, 2 were children. 1 was killed, which left lori and alex to give statements. They backed up each other and the police closed the case. If le had looked they would have found motive for his killing being murder, the divorce papers Charles filed a couple of months before his death said she threatened to kill him several times. If le had looked into alex, they would have found his assault, arrest and conviction a couple years earlier against Lori's former husband, tylees father (Also dead) Alex was a hot head, violent type who did Lori's bidding in the past. While hindsight is great, the red flags were there if they'd done more than take the word of the 2 adults at the scene that it was self defense. If they'd looked, they would have fount restraining order against lori, if they'd looked into Charles finances they would have seen that lori had been draining couple's bank accounts, stealing charles property, and if they'd digged further they would have uncovered the affair between lori and chad daybell which her husband Charles suspected but did not have proof. I'd say the marriage 2 weeks after tammys death is damning evidence of that. There's also speculation, but no confirmation yet that ive seen that Charles had 2 million in life insurance. The red flags were there, if a more thorough investigation by chandler pd had taken place, this investigation wouldn't have been wrapped so quickly. We can't say they would've gotten enough to bring charges, but it would have been an open investigation when the other things happened.

Yes, lots of red flags that were obviously ignored. Too late now. Lori's and Alex' statements to police contradicted each other - they didn't even agree on where each of them physically were when Charles was shot - no probs. Lori left the scene of a crime - a murder scene - yet that was no biggie to the police, not suspicious at all. No blood anywhere on Alex, who claimed to give Charles CPR after being shot twice in the chest - no red flags there. It looked like someone had cleaned up and staged the murder scene. Lori's documented threats that she was going to kill Charles, etc. etc. etc. They will likely get away with the murder in this life, but justice will come most assuredly.

ChooseTruth wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 8:13 am

jmack wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 7:46 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 3:09 pm The Chandler PD did not fully investigate Charles' death. They took Lori's and Alex's words at face value, declared it as "self-defense", and that was that - closed. Not my opinion - you can "investigate" to your little heart's content and you'll find that that IS the case. It wasn't until a healthy Alex turned up dead last month, with no apparent cause of death, that they started to take Charles' death seriously and wonder if it wasn't actually self-defense after all. Also of interest, Alex had married a woman who follows Vallow's and Daybell's beliefs (as evidenced by her posts on AVOW), just 10 days before his death. But I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything..

I've been reading extensively on this and unfortunately iyam, the killing of Charles vallow was not looked into enough to uncover all the red flags. 5 people were in the home when it happened, 2 were children. 1 was killed, which left lori and alex to give statements. They backed up each other and the police closed the case. If le had looked they would have found motive for his killing being murder, the divorce papers Charles filed a couple of months before his death said she threatened to kill him several times. If le had looked into alex, they would have found his assault, arrest and conviction a couple years earlier against Lori's former husband, tylees father (Also dead) Alex was a hot head, violent type who did Lori's bidding in the past. While hindsight is great, the red flags were there if they'd done more than take the word of the 2 adults at the scene that it was self defense. If they'd looked, they would have fount restraining order against lori, if they'd looked into Charles finances they would have seen that lori had been draining couple's bank accounts, stealing charles property, and if they'd digged further they would have uncovered the affair between lori and chad daybell which her husband Charles suspected but did not have proof. I'd say the marriage 2 weeks after tammys death is damning evidence of that. There's also speculation, but no confirmation yet that ive seen that Charles had 2 million in life insurance. The red flags were there, if a more thorough investigation by chandler pd had taken place, this investigation wouldn't have been wrapped so quickly. We can't say they would've gotten enough to bring charges, but it would have been an open investigation when the other things happened.

You make several good points about the need for a better investigation at the time of the incident. As it stands now, absolutely nothing will come of this case.

Sadly, I have to agree.

ChooseTruth wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 8:13 am

jmack wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 7:46 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 3:09 pm

mirkwood wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 2:44 pm

Wow, all that from a couple minute news video which featured a brief bodycam showing. Tell me what investigative class you took, I'd like to attend that one. And here I thought I was a good investigator.

Apparently not. Also, no need to get all defensive and take it personally when cops somewhere in the world mess up, Mirkwood. The extreme defensiveness you display every time someone mentions that LE might have performed less than stellar makes you appear silly and immature. I'm not one of the cop-haters on the forum, so chill. Also, I only shared a tiny amount of what I've read on the subject here in this thread - so you assuming everything I know about this is only what was gleaned from the video is showing very poor "investigative" skills on your part (oh the irony...) and is quite presumptuous.

The Chandler PD did not fully investigate Charles' death. They took Lori's and Alex's words at face value, declared it as "self-defense", and that was that - closed. Not my opinion - you can "investigate" to your little heart's content and you'll find that that IS the case. It wasn't until a healthy Alex turned up dead last month, with no apparent cause of death, that they started to take Charles' death seriously and wonder if it wasn't actually self-defense after all. Also of interest, Alex had married a woman who follows Vallow's and Daybell's beliefs (as evidenced by her posts on AVOW), just 10 days before his death. But I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything...

And, not that it's any of your business, but to answer your unwarranted and snarky question - I have a BS in Criminology and Criminal Justice.

I've been reading extensively on this and unfortunately iyam, the killing of Charles vallow was not looked into enough to uncover all the red flags. 5 people were in the home when it happened, 2 were children. 1 was killed, which left lori and alex to give statements. They backed up each other and the police closed the case. If le had looked they would have found motive for his killing being murder, the divorce papers Charles filed a couple of months before his death said she threatened to kill him several times. If le had looked into alex, they would have found his assault, arrest and conviction a couple years earlier against Lori's former husband, tylees father (Also dead) Alex was a hot head, violent type who did Lori's bidding in the past. While hindsight is great, the red flags were there if they'd done more than take the word of the 2 adults at the scene that it was self defense. If they'd looked, they would have fount restraining order against lori, if they'd looked into Charles finances they would have seen that lori had been draining couple's bank accounts, stealing charles property, and if they'd digged further they would have uncovered the affair between lori and chad daybell which her husband Charles suspected but did not have proof. I'd say the marriage 2 weeks after tammys death is damning evidence of that. There's also speculation, but no confirmation yet that ive seen that Charles had 2 million in life insurance. The red flags were there, if a more thorough investigation by chandler pd had taken place, this investigation wouldn't have been wrapped so quickly. We can't say they would've gotten enough to bring charges, but it would have been an open investigation when the other things happened.

You make several good points about the need for a better investigation at the time of the incident. As it stands now, absolutely nothing will come of this case.

From reading on other forums, it appears the statements given by Lori and Alex indicate that Tylee brought the bat into the room in an attempt to defend Lori from Charles. Charles got control of the bat and at that point Lori took the kids and left. As they were leaving the driveway in a car, they heard gunshots in the house. Alex apparently defended himself from Charles by shooting him. Now, Alex is dead too.

This creates a scenario that makes it all but impossible to secure a conviction. The person doing the shooting is dead, can’t be prosecuted and can’t act as a witness. The other person potentially involved was outside of the house at the time of the shooting. Police would need Alex’s testimony to create a case against Lori and he’s dead. All available witness statements are consistent. So, even if Charles was set up and intentionally killed, there’s no case that would result in a conviction. So, don’t expect to see the police spend resources on this at this point.

If you are right and tylee gave a statement which corroborated lori and alex, and it was false, that could explain her disappearance, if she might change her story if pressed by police. Alex is dead, so hes not a problem. Alex was not dead for months after, the time to investigate was when it happened, and frankly I believe with all the evidence they might have been able to put pressure on someone to tell what actually happened. I'm not sure it was a planned killing, but one of opportunity. Charles had a bat, but alex had a gun?why did he happen to have a gun? Who's gun was it? How did he know to grab it with charles hitting him with a bat? Did alex have injuries consistent with being attacked with a bat? I think a little more digging was warranted, especially since it seems tylees testimony was used to support the self defense claim and lo and behold, she goes missing a few weeks later.

The Grandma and her husband were on Dr. Oz yesterday. I thought Chad went to Hawaii? I saw a couple living off the grid in Hawaii. It would be easy there.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 10:15 pm How do you suppose Lori and Chad are living? Do they have a stack of cash that they are using for living expenses? Because using credit/bank cards would normally be something that is easy to trace. Are they using burner phones? Using their regular cell phones would also be easy to trace. It just makes me wonder how they are living and paying for things - shelter, food, etc. - unless they're holed up in an off-the-grid cabin somewhere with months worth of food storage and water. Not the easiest thing to do in the cold winter months (unless they're in Hawaii, which is one theory).

Lori has buried a few husbands, and Chad has buried one wife - so maybe they both have received a bunch of life insurance pay-outs which they converted to cash to live on? I don't know, but it's possible. It just seems hard for two people, whose faces are everywhere, to entirely disappear in this digital day and age in the U.S. It has also been suggested that members of their cult (AVOW, Rowe, et al) are hiding them or helping them stay out of sight - that wouldn't surprise me either. Anyway, it's interesting to think about.

I feel very bad for those two innocent children and sincerely hope they are alright.

Great questions.
My opinion is that Vallow either killed them all off and now she's back as a new-born baby in her new mortal probation with vague images of being married to a big time publisher in a previous life or they're living with someone or some people who are hiding them. I doubt they're in Hawaii or somewhere else that would necessitate buying flight tickets.
The more I read about her the more I think she's a total nut job. I'm not sure where to put Chad in all of this- a manipulated sucker or a cohort.

OCDMOM wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 9:55 am The Grandma and her husband were on Dr. Oz yesterday. I thought Chad went to Hawaii? I saw a couple living off the grid in Hawaii. It would be easy there.

He was only in Hawaii for a couple of weeks in November, then returned to Idaho, disappeared Nov 27. I don’t think they would hide in Hawaii since they would need to board a plane.

Art Vandelay wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 10:17 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 10:15 pm How do you suppose Lori and Chad are living? Do they have a stack of cash that they are using for living expenses? Because using credit/bank cards would normally be something that is easy to trace. Are they using burner phones? Using their regular cell phones would also be easy to trace. It just makes me wonder how they are living and paying for things - shelter, food, etc. - unless they're holed up in an off-the-grid cabin somewhere with months worth of food storage and water. Not the easiest thing to do in the cold winter months (unless they're in Hawaii, which is one theory).

Lori has buried a few husbands, and Chad has buried one wife - so maybe they both have received a bunch of life insurance pay-outs which they converted to cash to live on? I don't know, but it's possible. It just seems hard for two people, whose faces are everywhere, to entirely disappear in this digital day and age in the U.S. It has also been suggested that members of their cult (AVOW, Rowe, et al) are hiding them or helping them stay out of sight - that wouldn't surprise me either. Anyway, it's interesting to think about.

I feel very bad for those two innocent children and sincerely hope they are alright.

Great questions.
My opinion is that Vallow either killed them all off and now she's back as a new-born baby in her new mortal probation with vague images of being married to a big time publisher in a previous life or they're living with someone or some people who are hiding them. I doubt they're in Hawaii or somewhere else that would necessitate buying flight tickets.
The more I read about her the more I think she's a total nut job. I'm not sure where to put Chad in all of this- a manipulated sucker or a cohort.

I wouldn't let chad off the hook, according to family and friends, he's the catalyst that caused her crazy, scary behavior. She became obsessed with his books and end times weirdness. It seems likely they were having an affair before his wife died.

OCDMOM wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 9:55 am The Grandma and her husband were on Dr. Oz yesterday. I thought Chad went to Hawaii? I saw a couple living off the grid in Hawaii. It would be easy there.

When Chad announced his wife, Tammy's, sudden, unexplained death on AVOW (I was still a member there at that time, last October) - he also said he was leaving for Hawaii shortly after her funeral - which was TWO days after her death. That's some fast work. He also had his adult children come to the house and clean out all of Tammy's things right after she died. Anyway, two days after his wife died, he buried her, then was off to Hawaii shortly afterward. Of course, on AVOW, he failed to mention that the REASON he was going to Hawaii was to marry his lover, Lori Vallow, whom he did indeed marry 2 weeks after his wife's sudden and unexplained death. So yes, he did go to Hawaii, but that is the only time I'm personally aware of that he admitted going to Hawaii.

There has been speculation that that is where he and Lori took off to when they were caught lying to police in Rexburg about where the two children were. When police discovered that the kids were NOT in Arizona with family, like Lori and Chad told them they were, it wasn't till the next day that the Rexburg police went to their house again to confront them about their lies - when they discovered that the Daybells had left in a hurry. So they could have flown to Hawaii, either using their real names or fake ones, the same day they lied to police (they were not "persons of interest" yet, and they would not have been stopped at the airport). And you're right, there are plenty of wilderness areas on the islands to hide, and they wouldn't have to worry about freezing weather, or roughing it too much, etc. (neither Lori or Chad are wilderness material, IMO - Lori is a stick and looks pretty weak, and Chad is obese and out of shape) - but I tend to agree with others here that they are probably in Idaho or Utah somewhere, being hidden and taken care of by members of their cult/Parrett's AVOW (same difference).

I DVR'd the Dr. Oz show with the grandparents on it, and will watch it later today. Did you watch it? What did you think?

jmack wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 10:56 am

Art Vandelay wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 10:17 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 10:15 pm How do you suppose Lori and Chad are living? Do they have a stack of cash that they are using for living expenses? Because using credit/bank cards would normally be something that is easy to trace. Are they using burner phones? Using their regular cell phones would also be easy to trace. It just makes me wonder how they are living and paying for things - shelter, food, etc. - unless they're holed up in an off-the-grid cabin somewhere with months worth of food storage and water. Not the easiest thing to do in the cold winter months (unless they're in Hawaii, which is one theory).

Lori has buried a few husbands, and Chad has buried one wife - so maybe they both have received a bunch of life insurance pay-outs which they converted to cash to live on? I don't know, but it's possible. It just seems hard for two people, whose faces are everywhere, to entirely disappear in this digital day and age in the U.S. It has also been suggested that members of their cult (AVOW, Rowe, et al) are hiding them or helping them stay out of sight - that wouldn't surprise me either. Anyway, it's interesting to think about.

I feel very bad for those two innocent children and sincerely hope they are alright.

Great questions.
My opinion is that Vallow either killed them all off and now she's back as a new-born baby in her new mortal probation with vague images of being married to a big time publisher in a previous life or they're living with someone or some people who are hiding them. I doubt they're in Hawaii or somewhere else that would necessitate buying flight tickets.
The more I read about her the more I think she's a total nut job. I'm not sure where to put Chad in all of this- a manipulated sucker or a cohort.

I wouldn't let chad off the hook, according to family and friends, he's the catalyst that caused her crazy, scary behavior. She became obsessed with his books and end times weirdness. It seems likely they were having an affair before his wife died.

Agreed. If you read statements Lori has made, and what various family members and friends have said about it - Chad and his books are what spurred all this with Charles' death, Tammy's death, Lori and Chad getting married 2 weeks after his wife's death, the disappearance of the kids, etc. Lori was already a taco short of a combination plate before Chad came along, but her crazy went nuclear after becoming involved with him/his books. When people are obsessed with fringe, non-doctrinal topics - then throw sex in the mix - a LOT can go wrong.

jmack wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 10:56 am

Art Vandelay wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 10:17 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 10:15 pm How do you suppose Lori and Chad are living? Do they have a stack of cash that they are using for living expenses? Because using credit/bank cards would normally be something that is easy to trace. Are they using burner phones? Using their regular cell phones would also be easy to trace. It just makes me wonder how they are living and paying for things - shelter, food, etc. - unless they're holed up in an off-the-grid cabin somewhere with months worth of food storage and water. Not the easiest thing to do in the cold winter months (unless they're in Hawaii, which is one theory).

Lori has buried a few husbands, and Chad has buried one wife - so maybe they both have received a bunch of life insurance pay-outs which they converted to cash to live on? I don't know, but it's possible. It just seems hard for two people, whose faces are everywhere, to entirely disappear in this digital day and age in the U.S. It has also been suggested that members of their cult (AVOW, Rowe, et al) are hiding them or helping them stay out of sight - that wouldn't surprise me either. Anyway, it's interesting to think about.

I feel very bad for those two innocent children and sincerely hope they are alright.

Great questions.
My opinion is that Vallow either killed them all off and now she's back as a new-born baby in her new mortal probation with vague images of being married to a big time publisher in a previous life or they're living with someone or some people who are hiding them. I doubt they're in Hawaii or somewhere else that would necessitate buying flight tickets.
The more I read about her the more I think she's a total nut job. I'm not sure where to put Chad in all of this- a manipulated sucker or a cohort.

I wouldn't let chad off the hook, according to family and friends, he's the catalyst that caused her crazy, scary behavior. She became obsessed with his books and end times weirdness. It seems likely they were having an affair before his wife died.

I agree. I didn't intend to dismiss Chad as an involved and responsible actor in all this.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 15th, 2020, 8:44 am
It's a shame to see how fragile your ego is, Mirkwood.

You're going to have to try a lot harder then that.

It seems likely there is one of two possibilities here:

1. They are being hid by someone, likely one of the followers. Beyond the Utah/Idaho/Arizona area I would be taking a good long look at the Jackson County, Missouri area including the three adjacent Kansas counties where various people, Julie Rowe as an example own property. This would also include places like Daviess County, Missouri where Adam-ondi-Ahman is located.

2. This is much darker scenario but given some of Lori's reported remarks one that can't be dismissed. That is that they are all, including the children, dead in some sort of odd murder/suicide act.

The idea that they are hold up in some mountain hideaway strike me as rather unlikely. First of all I'm sure the police have looked at all the property they might own in all three states, second they just don't seem like the kind of people who are going to be able to hold up in the mountains for any period of this. They seem to crave attention, on AVOW or in other similar venues and the idea that they won't ever communicate seems unlikely. Given this scenario two above becomes a troubling possibility.

I was on websleuths #2 on Chad Daybell today. It appears that a poster named afitzy on page 68 said that Alex Cox the description of his death was foaming at the mouth, and a release of body fluids, and death occurring over a 10 minute period. I am not sure where this person has gotten their information, but it would be interesting to see if the information is out there.