LDS Freedom Forum

DesertWonderer2 wrote: ↑January 13th, 2020, 12:15 pm Not my stewardship obviously but I think The Church REALLY needs to make a statement about these doomsday cultist. Not just Daybell but ALL of these groups. The Church can’t name them specifically for legalities but they could say something like:

“Recently in the news, groups and individuals primarily made of members or former members of the church focusing on end times themes have come to light. These groups promote their own ideas and doctrine. These groups do not speak for the church and many of their ideas are in direct contradiction to the restored gospel. We do [NOT] condone or support these groups.”

I agree. But you left out a very important word, DW2.

So far, the only thing I've seen as semi-official from the Church regarding the case is this -

"Church spokesman Eric Hawkins declined to comment, saying the case doesn’t involve the faith."

Well, maybe Eric Hawkins thinks the case doesn't involve the faith, but the rest of the country/world sure thinks it does - in fact, the whole thing revolves around the Church and its teachings - which Daybell, Vallow, Rowe, Sosa, et al, and their followers have dramatically perverted, of course.

DesertWonderer2 wrote: ↑January 13th, 2020, 12:15 pm Not my stewardship obviously but I think The Church REALLY needs to make a statement about these doomsday cultist. Not just Daybell but ALL of these groups. The Church can’t name them specifically for legalities but they could say something like:

“Recently in the news, groups and individuals primarily made of members or former members of the church focusing on end times themes have come to light. These groups promote their own ideas and doctrine. These groups do not speak for the church and many of their ideas are in direct contradiction to the restored gospel. We do condone or support these groups.”

I'm not saying you don't have a point - but what do you think this kind of a statement will actually accomplish?

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/1/10/ ... ri-daybell

Case of 2 missing Idaho kids grows to include deaths, cult rumors
By Associated Press Jan 10, 2020, 11:11am MST

BOISE — Two dead spouses, two missing children and rumors of a cult.

Confusion is growing around a series of mysterious deaths and the disappearances of a 7-year-old boy and 17-year-old girl that tie back to a couple who have since vanished themselves.

Joshua “JJ” Vallow and Tylee Ryan haven’t been seen since September. Lori Vallow and her husband, Chad Daybell, never reported them missing and disappeared soon after being questioned about the children. What has followed is a twisted tale spanning two states that revealed the deaths of both their previous spouses, the couple’s doomsday beliefs and children who slowly slipped away from relatives who are desperate to find them.

“All I want before I go is just to see those children, and especially — and I’m being greedy — especially my boy JJ. My little man,” grandfather Larry Woodcock said this week at a press conference in Idaho announcing a $20,000 reward for information leading to the kids.

Wife Kay Woodcock’s brother, Charles Vallow, adopted JJ when he was a baby. Charles and his wife, Lori Vallow, also raised Lori’s daughter from a previous relationship at their home in suburban Phoenix.

Lori Vallow was a hairdresser, always keeping JJ’s hair trimmed and styled, Larry Woodcock said. The Woodcocks, who live in Lake Charles, Louisiana, visited their grandson often and shared frequent phone calls and video chats when they couldn’t be there in person.

But things began to change a few years ago, Kay Woodcock said. Her brother confided that he feared Lori was cheating on him with Chad Daybell, an author of several religious-themed fiction books about prophecies and the end of the world.

Charles Vallow eventually filed divorce documents in an Arizona court last February claiming that Lori believed she was a “translated being” and “a god assigned to carry out the work of the 144,000 at Christ’s second coming in July 2020,” the Arizona Republic newspaper reported.

He also accused Lori of threatening to kill him if he got in her way, prompting him to seek a protection order.

“He was highly concerned about it: Her emotional state, her mental state, and the fact that she had made threats about him,” Kay Woodcock said. “It all culminated into that cult that she’s in.”

Lori Vallow and Daybell did “Preparing A People” podcasts run by a small multimedia company that says it’s not a cult or even a group to join and distanced itself from the couple’s beliefs. It advertises its lectures, podcasts and videos as readying people for the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Charles and Lori Vallow’s divorce was never completed — Charles was killed in July by Lori’s brother, Alex Cox. Cox told authorities that the shooting was in self-defense after Charles Vallow hit him with a baseball bat, but the case is unsolved. Whatever the findings, Cox won’t stand trial — he died of unknown causes in December. Toxicology results could take weeks.

Kay Woodcock said Lori acted strangely when she told the family about Charles’ death, not mentioning the cause. A relative had to search Charles’ name online to find out he had been shot.

“We knew it was a murder, we knew Charles’ death wasn’t a justifiable homicide,” Kay Woodcock said. “It was like they set him up.”

After the death, Kay and Larry Woodcock said they had a harder time reaching JJ. The once-frequent calls dwindled and grew short. The last one, in August, lasted just 36 seconds and seemed scripted, they said.

That month, Lori moved to Rexburg, Idaho, with the kids. It brought her closer to Chad Daybell’s hometown of Salem, Idaho, where he lived with his wife, Tammy Daybell.

The Daybells ran a publishing company that produced his fiction books about end times and theology around The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as well as other authors’ works. He also spoke at “Preparing A People” events, hosted by Color My Media.

“‘Preparing A People’ is part of a media company that films speakers on a variety of topics not affiliated with any specific religion,” Color My Media owners Michael and Nancy James wrote on the company’s website. “It is not a ‘group’ and is not a ‘cult’ or something people join, but has educational lecture events that can be attended or watched on video.”

They also said they didn’t share any of Daybell or Vallow’s beliefs “if they are contrary to Christian principles of honesty, integrity and truth or if they do not align with the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

Church spokesman Eric Hawkins declined to comment, saying the case doesn’t involve the faith.

Two months after Lori Vallow moved to Idaho, Tammy Daybell died at her home. She was just 49, and her obituary said she died of natural causes on Oct. 19. Police would later question that and have her body exhumed from a cemetery in Springville, Utah, for an autopsy, whose results have not been released yet.

Chad Daybell married Lori Vallow just two weeks after Tammy’s death.

In the meantime, relatives were growing more concerned about the children. Larry and Kay Woodcock said they were only able to reach JJ a few times after his father died in July. They have left voice messages, emails and texts since August but haven’t heard back.

Investigators later determined JJ and Tylee had not been seen since September, but Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell never reported them missing.

Julie Rowe, a self-described “visionary” and “energy worker” who says she has long been friends with Daybell, uploaded a video on her website defending him and claiming his innocence in the children’s disappearances and the death of his previous wife. She said Daybell repeatedly told her he had a vision of Tammy’s death. Rowe claimed to have the same vision.

“My angels tell me that Chad Daybell is being falsely accused of the suspicious death of his wife,” she said in the video. “I have talked to Tammy’s spirit.”

Two days before Thanksgiving, officers visited Lori and Chad to check on the children after getting calls from worried family members.

Investigators said the couple claimed JJ and Tylee were visiting relatives in Arizona. After discovering the lie, investigators returned to the home the next day — only to find Lori and Chad had left town.

Local, regional and state authorities are still searching for the couple and the children, with help from the FBI. Chad and Lori have been named persons of interest in the children’s disappearances.

Sheriff’s deputies searched Daybell’s home last week, removing 43 items including computers, cellphones, medication and journals.

An attorney for the couple didn’t immediately respond to a message seeking comment.

https://fox13now.com/2020/01/02/interna ... dangerous/

International cult expert believes parents of missing Rexburg children are dangerous
POSTED 10:38 PM, JANUARY 2, 2020, BY ADAM HERBETS

REXBURG, Idaho —One of the country’s leading experts studying cult behavior is now weighing in on the search for two missing children in Rexburg, Idaho.

The FBI and police agencies across the country are continuing to search for 17-year-old Tylee Ryan and her autistic brother, seven-year-old Joshua Vallow. The two children have been missing since September.

Officers with the Rexburg Police Department said the children’s newlywed parents Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow did not report the children missing, fled from Idaho, and refuse to cooperate with the investigation.

Family members of Lori Vallow tell FOX 13 she was a great mother until something changed, perhaps when she met Chad Daybell.

Lori Vallow’s husband, Charles Vallow, was shot and killed by her brother Alex Cox in July. Cox told officers the shooting was in self-defense, and the case is under investigation by the Chandler Police Department.

Alex Cox later died in December. The circumstances of his death are not being released. The case is under investigation by the Gilbert Police Department.

Medical examiners initially believed Chad Daybell’s wife, Tammy Daybell, died of natural causes in October.

Within two weeks, Chad Daybell married Lori Vallow.

Tammy Daybell’s remains, which were buried in Springville, Utah, have since been exhumed for further testing due to potentially suspicious circumstances. The case is under investigation by the Fremont County Sheriff’s Office.

Rick Alan Ross, the executive director of the Cult Education Institute, said he agrees with family members who are deeply concerned with the newlywed couple’s religious beliefs.

“(Lori Vallow’s) husband dies. Her brother dies, and the children disappear,” Ross said. “Something is going on. It’s very dark. It’s very sinister, and in my opinion, very cult-like.”

Ross said he believes Chad Daybell’s books – focused on the end of the world – are a major red flag.

“It seems to me that Chad Daybell is the leader, and he’s the defining element of this group. He is the one who has created this whole belief system around his revelation,” Ross said. “I mean, he wrote 25 books… He seems to use his LDS background as a recruitment tool… It seems to me, according to the family, that Lori Daybell became increasingly dependent on Chad Daybell and was his ardent follower and supporter.”

Julie Rowe, a friend of Chad Daybell, told FOX 13 in December that she has not maintained contact with Chad Daybell but believes he would never hurt his wife or stepchildren. She confirmed Chad Daybell received visions that his wife would die.

“I did ask him, ‘Chad? Do you still see Tammy dying?’” Rowe said. “He said, ‘Yes I do.’”

Ross said he sees similarities between Chad Daybell and Jeffrey Lundgren, a prominent cult leader who recruited members from the FLDS Church and was executed in 2006.

“(Lundgren) also saw himself as a prophet. He grew a group of people away from the church and isolated them, manipulated them, and it ended with the deaths of five people. A mother, a father, and their three children,” Ross said. “It (also) reminds me of a group in Denver years ago that was called Concerned Christians. They also were defined by doomsday beliefs of their leader, and they just disappeared. To this day, the leader and many of his followers have never reappeared.”

Although Chad Daybell has marketed himself as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a spokesperson for the Church has not confirmed or denied whether Chad Daybell has been excommunicated or is still a member.

“All of the major religions, be it Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, all have splinter groups,” Ross said. “Children have no choice when it comes to cults. They are brought in by their parents… I hope this has a happy ending.”

If you have any information about this case, please call the FBI or the Rexburg Police Department.

Some might want to read this thread, as well -

viewtopic.php?t=47972

jmack wrote: ↑January 13th, 2020, 1:03 pm

Juliet wrote: ↑January 8th, 2020, 11:15 am Of course police will get a warrant now that they have blown this into a multi-national story. But it still stands that when the story broke, the police did not get a warrant. A cop that can't make a phone call to get a warrant is a dishonest cop. So while we are alleging lots about the Daybell case, let's not forget the cops can kidnap and abuse children too, all under the guise of helping people. If there is a requirement for the law to get involved, then they can do the work it takes to make a phone call and get a warrant. But in this case, they had to blow up the case and use public uproar as an excuse to get a warrant, which looks like is failing to show up bones anyway. I just hope and pray the truth comes out.

That's not true, the police came back with a warrant end of November, they didn't inform the public till December 20th, almost a month later, after Lori's brothers suspicious death. This isn't a situation of harassment, lori daybell may have harmed her children. Her slide into crazy the last year is alarming.

She got worse?!?! She wasn't all that stable when I met her several years ago.

ILiveIDieILiveAgain wrote: ↑January 13th, 2020, 10:41 am This is just the end result when a religion uses end of world doom and gloom to try and get the followers to do things. Its been going on since right after Christ died, and those followers started freaking out about Jesus' return. Continuing on at all unique calendar times since then. Reinforced when Joseph Smith made actual scripture saying if he made it to 85, he would see the face of the Son of Man. Now that we have the information age, we can easily find others that have obsessed over the end of the world and Doomsday. Technically, Jesus and Christianity can be blamed for obsession with the end of the world. There really needs to be a new commandment: Thou shalt not obsess about my Second Coming.

This isn't accurate. If Jesus and Christianity were to blame, all Christians would be nutty doomsayers, which we're not.

Summerwind wrote: ↑January 13th, 2020, 1:44 pm

DesertWonderer2 wrote: ↑January 13th, 2020, 12:15 pm Not my stewardship obviously but I think The Church REALLY needs to make a statement about these doomsday cultist. Not just Daybell but ALL of these groups. The Church can’t name them specifically for legalities but they could say something like:

“Recently in the news, groups and individuals primarily made of members or former members of the church focusing on end times themes have come to light. These groups promote their own ideas and doctrine. These groups do not speak for the church and many of their ideas are in direct contradiction to the restored gospel. We do condone or support these groups.”

I'm not saying you don't have a point - but what do you think this kind of a statement will actually accomplish?

Three things:

- bc of this news story, the world thinks these peoples’ bizarre beliefs are our beliefs. We could correct and educate people on this.

- this may help stop members from falling prey to these false prophets / christs in the future.

- this may also help get members to leave these evil doctrines behind.

https://www.postregister.com/news/local ... IMn7vYx_LE

Lawyers: Charles Vallow predicted who would be responsible for his death
By SALLY KRUTZIG [email protected] Jan 10, 2020 Updated Jan 13, 2020 0

On Jan. 29. 2019, Lori Vallow called her husband, Charles Vallow, to tell him she was a god.

As a god, her mission was to carry out the work of the 144,000 at Christ’s second coming. That second coming was imminent. According to Lori, Jesus was headed to Earth in July 2020. And if Charles got in the way of that mission, Lori would murder him.

These details and more have been unearthed from court documents from Charles’ divorce filing against Lori. Arizona Republic reporter Chelsea Curtis, who previously reported many of these details, shared the documents with the Post Register. (Justin Lum at Fox 10 Phoenix was the first to report on the documents.)

The next day, Lori called Charles again. Except she didn’t call her husband of nearly 13 years Charles, the documents said. Lori kept referring to him as “Nick Schneider.”

“Who is Nick Schneider?” Charles said he asked Lori, according to the documents.

“Nick is your real name,” Lori said, according to the documents, “Nick killed Charles and has taken his identity.”

Before hanging up, Lori went on to say that she planned to kill him when he returned from his trip, according to the documents. She even had an angel there to help dispose of his body.

The divorce papers were filed on Charles’ behalf Feb. 8 by his attorneys at Ellsworth Family Law.

Obviously, alarmed Charles told his lawyer Steven Ellsworth, “I want to make sure that everyone knows that if something happens to me, Lori and Alex did it,” Ellsworth told Fox 10 Phoenix on Thursday.

It turns out Lori wasn’t the only one with visions of the future. Five months later, Charles was shot to death by Alex Cox, Lori’s brother, at Lori’s home in Chandler, Ariz.

Other details from the court documents included Lori’s belief that she was a translated being who cannot taste death, that she has “lived numerous lives on numerous planets prior to this current life,” that she was married to Book of Mormon prophet Moroni, and that she was the grandmother of Joseph Smith, the founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Around the same time Charles filed for divorce, he also tried to get a protection order against Lori, but his attorneys couldn’t find her in order to serve it, Ellsworth and fellow attorney Taylor Larson told Fox 10 Phoenix.

The time frame in which process servers couldn’t find Lori coincides with with when Lori disappeared for 58 days in February and March 2019, according to Kay Vallow Woodcock, Charles’ sister.

“I think she had a talk or a conference with Preparing A People, and we’re just not ever able to find her and serve her,” Larson told Fox 10 Phoenix.

The divorce papers also show Charles tried to get Lori mental health care help. Lori refused his requests to see a doctor, court documents said. She didn’t want doctors to discover she was a translated being. Charles then went on to petition Community Bridges Healthcare for a 72-hour hold and evaluation of Lori. He set up a time for her to arrive at the care center, but Lori never showed up.

“Community Bridges then informed (Charles) that based on the information he provided them, they would be issuing a 72 hour involuntary hold petition to Gilbert Police instructing the police department to take (Lori) into custody and transport her to Community Bridges if she made any contact with the police,” the document stated.

It appears Lori never did contact police and was never taken to Community Bridges.

The court documents make clear that it was not just his own safety Charles feared was at stake. Charles requested his request for temporary custody be accelerated through the court.

“Father is greatly concerned for Mother’s well-being and the minor child’s best interests. Father is worried that the child will be affected by Mother’s mental instability if Mother continues to go without seeking professional help.” the document stated. “Father states that with each passing day the parties do not have temporary orders in place, the child’s physical, mental, moral and emotional health are in serious danger.”

No charges were ever filed in Charles’ death. Lori and Cox told police it was self-defense. Lori did not inform Charles’ adult children about his death, Charles’ son told Fox 10; they learned about it from the news.

“We knew that this wasn’t an accident,” said Larson. “This wasn’t self-defense.”

Five months later, Cox died of unknown causes. He was found unresponsive by a witness, Brenda Carrasco, a public information officer for Gilbert police, confirmed to the Post Register. Gilbert police are still investigating both deaths. Cox’s autopsy is expected to be completed in three months, Carrasco said.

There were five people at Lori’s home during the July conflict that lead to Charles’ death. Two are dead and three are missing.

https://www.facebook.com/jlumfox10/vide ... 657870308/

I hope most can view this video (sorry, don't know how to embed). It's quite remarkable. How this murder (of Lori's husband, Charles Vallow, by her brother, Alex - who recently died under suspicious circumstances) could ever be considered as "self-defense" is beyond me. The only witnesses to this event are now either dead (Charles and Alex) or are missing (Lori, and her two kids). Convenient.

https://www.facebook.com/jlumfox10/vide ... 471373693/

Video from Chandler police body cam after they were called to Lori's house when her brother shot and killed her husband, Charles. Her brother, Alex, who killed Charles, is now also dead. They are performing an autopsy on him to determine the cause of death, as no cause was apparent and he was a fairly young, healthy man.

What a crazy lady. I wouldn't be surprised if Lori has killed Chad Daybell by now.

I don't think Moroni would've taken it too kindly that his wife returned to mortality (MMP) to marry more people.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 11:07 am https://www.facebook.com/jlumfox10/vide ... 657870308/

I hope most can view this video (sorry, don't know how to embed). It's quite remarkable. How this murder (of Lori's husband, Charles Vallow, by her brother, Alex - who recently died under suspicious circumstances) could ever be considered as "self-defense" is beyond me. The only witnesses to this event are now either dead (Charles and Alex) or are missing (Lori, and her two kids). Convenient.

The video presents so much more information. I imagined the crime scene to be so different. I couldn't believe Lori had left the house in Charles rented car and left him dead in the living room.

Connie561 wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 11:36 am

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 11:07 am https://www.facebook.com/jlumfox10/vide ... 657870308/

I hope most can view this video (sorry, don't know how to embed). It's quite remarkable. How this murder (of Lori's husband, Charles Vallow, by her brother, Alex - who recently died under suspicious circumstances) could ever be considered as "self-defense" is beyond me. The only witnesses to this event are now either dead (Charles and Alex) or are missing (Lori, and her two kids). Convenient.

The video presents so much more information. I imagined the crime scene to be so different. I couldn't believe Lori had left the house in Charles rented car and left him dead in the living room.

Yes, it was eye-opening to say the least. Also, if you listen to or read the statements made by Lori and Alex to the police in regards to the circumstances surrounding Charles' murder, none of it makes any sense or supports the idea of "self-defense". The Chandler PD really dropped the ball on this one. Had they done a proper and thorough investigation right from the start, maybe the only witnesses to this shooting (the two kids) wouldn't now be missing.

And yes, what kind of person leaves a crime scene - especially when it's your husband that has been killed??

Snippets from a quote from the other current thread about Daybell that fits in perfectly with this thread. It seems very pertinent to everything that is happening with these people, including the world now firmly believing the LDS Church is indeed a cult (read around online to see this - it's very unfortunate). Sadly, most people won't differentiate between the actual Church and its doctrine/beliefs, and the fringe, deluded people who crave so badly to be "special" and to have "secret" knowledge, etc. who make up a tiny portion of its members.

I see these people that are falling all over the dreams and visions people as a doomsday cult forming inside the Mormon church.

The things these people are doing and preparing for are beyond excessive.

Seriously, every week there’s some new prediction on AVOW that has everyone riled up. Yet, the masters of all this nonsense are so good at stroking egos. Telling everyone they are the chosen ones and special and the only ones who really see and understand. [Reminds me of some on LDSFF, too...] As the leaders of those kind of groups continuously fleece them. I mean you can’t even read the visions unless you pay even more, cause that’s not money changerish at all. No.

But the worst thing about this doomsday cult is their naive acceptance of anything supernatural being from God, and therefore good. Because of this they are accepting blatant false doctrine from false visionaries (Spencer, Hector, Julie, etc. along with ANY NDE they read, They are accepting New Age Antichrist doctrine that ranges from subtle to blatant. They are being taught to look for the Antichrist and not the real Christ. They are accepting Energy Healing, and using the Priesthood in ways not taught in church.

It’s extremely frightening where this fear mongering and naivete have lead.

Not only extremely frightening, but deadly.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 11:46 am The Chandler PD really dropped the ball on this one. Had they done a proper and thorough investigation right from the start, maybe the only witnesses to this shooting (the two kids) wouldn't now be missing.

Wow, all that from a couple minute news video which featured a brief bodycam showing. Tell me what investigative class you took, I'd like to attend that one. And here I thought I was a good investigator.

mirkwood wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 2:44 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 11:46 am The Chandler PD really dropped the ball on this one. Had they done a proper and thorough investigation right from the start, maybe the only witnesses to this shooting (the two kids) wouldn't now be missing.

Wow, all that from a couple minute news video which featured a brief bodycam showing. Tell me what investigative class you took, I'd like to attend that one. And here I thought I was a good investigator.

Apparently not. Also, no need to get all defensive and take it personally when cops somewhere in the world mess up, Mirkwood. The extreme defensiveness you display every time someone mentions that LE might have performed less than stellar makes you appear silly and immature. I'm not one of the cop-haters on the forum, so chill. Also, I only shared a tiny amount of what I've read on the subject here in this thread - so you assuming everything I know about this is only what was gleaned from the video is showing very poor "investigative" skills on your part (oh the irony...) and is quite presumptuous.

The Chandler PD did not fully investigate Charles' death. They took Lori's and Alex's words at face value, declared it as "self-defense", and that was that - closed. Not my opinion - you can "investigate" to your little heart's content and you'll find that that IS the case. It wasn't until a healthy Alex turned up dead last month, with no apparent cause of death, that they started to take Charles' death seriously and wonder if it wasn't actually self-defense after all. Also of interest, Alex had married a woman who follows Vallow's and Daybell's beliefs (as evidenced by her posts on AVOW), just 10 days before his death. But I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything...

And, not that it's any of your business, but to answer your unwarranted and snarky question - I have a BS in Criminology and Criminal Justice.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 3:09 pm Apparently not. Also, no need to get all defensive and take it personally when cops somewhere in the world mess up, Mirkwood. The extreme defensiveness you display every time someone mentions that LE might have performed less than stellar makes you appear silly and immature. I'm not one of the cop-haters on the forum, so chill.

I rarely comment on the stupidity spouted off at LE on this forum. I probably comment on less then 10% of what gets said, so check yourself on that one Emmalee.

Also, I only shared a tiny amount of what I've read on the subject here in this thread - so you assuming everything I know about this is only what was gleaned from the video is showing very poor "investigative" skills on your part (oh the irony...) and is quite presumptuous.

Oh, you have all the reports in hand? You have all the years of experience investigating crimes do you? All those years interacting with the prosecution and defense attorneys both before and in court? All that time investigating this particular case knowing all the facts and all the missing pieces to convict for a crime? Who is the presumptuous one here?

The Chandler PD did not fully investigate Charles' death. They took Lori's and Alex's words at face value, declared it as "self-defense", and that was that - closed. Not my opinion - you can "investigate" to your little heart's content and you'll find that that IS the case. It wasn't until a healthy Alex turned up dead last month, with no apparent cause of death, that they started to take Charles' death seriously and wonder if it wasn't actually self-defense after all. Also of interest, Alex had married a woman who follows Vallow's and Daybell's beliefs (as evidenced by her posts on AVOW), just 10 days before his death. But I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything...

You are making assumptions here...based on all that experience you have for all these years in investigating crimes. All that experience knowing how to prove something occurred in court.

And, not that it's any of your business, but to answer your unwarranted and snarky question - I have a BS in Criminology and Criminal Justice.

That is all fine and dandy and does not an expert in criminal investigations make you. It might get you some preference points during the hiring process, but it does not make you a trained detective. Sorry if I just burst your bubble. Not really.


How's that for snark?


Yes, I know you are not part of the anti LE crowd around here, but you have a lack of experience (as most do on this forum) of the inner workings of real life investigations and sometimes, just sometimes, I decide to comment on the lack of experience people on this forum express.

mirkwood wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 6:36 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 3:09 pm Apparently not. Also, no need to get all defensive and take it personally when cops somewhere in the world mess up, Mirkwood. The extreme defensiveness you display every time someone mentions that LE might have performed less than stellar makes you appear silly and immature. I'm not one of the cop-haters on the forum, so chill.

I rarely comment on the stupidity spouted off at LE on this forum. I probably comment on less then 10% of what gets said, so check yourself on that one Emmalee.

Also, I only shared a tiny amount of what I've read on the subject here in this thread - so you assuming everything I know about this is only what was gleaned from the video is showing very poor "investigative" skills on your part (oh the irony...) and is quite presumptuous.

Oh, you have all the reports in hand? You have all the years of experience investigating crimes do you? All those years interacting with the prosecution and defense attorneys both before and in court? All that time investigating this particular case knowing all the facts and all the missing pieces to convict for a crime? Who is the presumptuous one here?

The Chandler PD did not fully investigate Charles' death. They took Lori's and Alex's words at face value, declared it as "self-defense", and that was that - closed. Not my opinion - you can "investigate" to your little heart's content and you'll find that that IS the case. It wasn't until a healthy Alex turned up dead last month, with no apparent cause of death, that they started to take Charles' death seriously and wonder if it wasn't actually self-defense after all. Also of interest, Alex had married a woman who follows Vallow's and Daybell's beliefs (as evidenced by her posts on AVOW), just 10 days before his death. But I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything...

You are making assumptions here...based on all that experience you have for all these years in investigating crimes. All that experience knowing how to prove something occurred in court.

And, not that it's any of your business, but to answer your unwarranted and snarky question - I have a BS in Criminology and Criminal Justice.

That is all fine and dandy and does not an expert in criminal investigations make you. It might get you some preference points during the hiring process, but it does not make you a trained detective. Sorry if I just burst your bubble. Not really.


How's that for snark?


Yes, I know you are not part of the anti LE crowd around here, but you have a lack of experience (as most do on this forum) of the inner workings of real life investigations and sometimes, just sometimes, I decide to comment on the lack of experience people on this forum express.

Wow, I'm impressed. Your rants have done nothing but further the negative way so many people think about cops - so points to you for that - for actually promoting the idea that most cops are so utterly full of themselves, so arrogant, that they can't even get the job done properly (although I highly doubt that was your intention - unintended consequences and all).

You have exactly zero idea of what I know/don't know - of what my experience is/isn't - of who I know/don't know - so maybe check yourself there, Mirkwood. You really come across as a very pompous jerk, in case no one has had the balls to let you know that. If you're trying to impress people - fail. No one with any sense or integrity is impressed by such feigned bravado.

As a side-note, it's actually quite humorous that you chose to attack me and my comment that the Chandler PD dropped the ball on Charles Vallow's murder (which they did, BTW, 100%) - yet you let all the comments by a couple of other posters on this thread propose and promote the idea that COPS have kidnapped the two children and are holding them against their will. Now THAT is hilarious, yet you just breeze by those comments without attacking the poster suggesting such a ridiculous thing - and you choose instead to pretend you know the first thing about me/what I know in this situation - very telling.

Anyway, the only thing you've accomplished by your excessively high opinions of yourself, and your presumptions and assumptions about me (or anyone else on an internet forum, who you don't know from Adam) is to push me over the line into the 'cops are a$$holes' camp. Well done!

Chandler Police Department report for the shooting that killed Charles Vallow on 07/11/2019 -

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5ED879CB

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5E9D52F8

Alex Cox' 911 call moments after he shot Charles Vallow to death. He sure seems calm and cool for having just killed someone. Also, there was no blood on him at all - not on his hands, not on his shirt/clothing, as can plainly be seen in the videos I posted earlier. If a person is doing CPR, chest compression, on someone who has been shot multiple times in the chest, they are going to have blood all over them. Also, I've witnessed a few people doing CPR in life or death situations, and without exception, they are exhausted and out of breath - unlike Alex, who seems nonchalant, no problem breathing, etc. (well, until he ended up dead himself a few months later....). Curious.

https://www.facebook.com/jlumfox10/post ... 1377699541

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 7:35 pm

mirkwood wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 6:36 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 3:09 pm Apparently not. Also, no need to get all defensive and take it personally when cops somewhere in the world mess up, Mirkwood. The extreme defensiveness you display every time someone mentions that LE might have performed less than stellar makes you appear silly and immature. I'm not one of the cop-haters on the forum, so chill.

I rarely comment on the stupidity spouted off at LE on this forum. I probably comment on less then 10% of what gets said, so check yourself on that one Emmalee.

Also, I only shared a tiny amount of what I've read on the subject here in this thread - so you assuming everything I know about this is only what was gleaned from the video is showing very poor "investigative" skills on your part (oh the irony...) and is quite presumptuous.

Oh, you have all the reports in hand? You have all the years of experience investigating crimes do you? All those years interacting with the prosecution and defense attorneys both before and in court? All that time investigating this particular case knowing all the facts and all the missing pieces to convict for a crime? Who is the presumptuous one here?

The Chandler PD did not fully investigate Charles' death. They took Lori's and Alex's words at face value, declared it as "self-defense", and that was that - closed. Not my opinion - you can "investigate" to your little heart's content and you'll find that that IS the case. It wasn't until a healthy Alex turned up dead last month, with no apparent cause of death, that they started to take Charles' death seriously and wonder if it wasn't actually self-defense after all. Also of interest, Alex had married a woman who follows Vallow's and Daybell's beliefs (as evidenced by her posts on AVOW), just 10 days before his death. But I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything...

You are making assumptions here...based on all that experience you have for all these years in investigating crimes. All that experience knowing how to prove something occurred in court.

And, not that it's any of your business, but to answer your unwarranted and snarky question - I have a BS in Criminology and Criminal Justice.

That is all fine and dandy and does not an expert in criminal investigations make you. It might get you some preference points during the hiring process, but it does not make you a trained detective. Sorry if I just burst your bubble. Not really.


How's that for snark?


Yes, I know you are not part of the anti LE crowd around here, but you have a lack of experience (as most do on this forum) of the inner workings of real life investigations and sometimes, just sometimes, I decide to comment on the lack of experience people on this forum express.

Wow, I'm impressed. Your rants have done nothing but further the negative way so many people think about cops - so points to you for that - for actually promoting the idea that most cops are so utterly full of themselves, so arrogant, that they can't even get the job done properly (although I highly doubt that was your intention - unintended consequences and all).

You have exactly zero idea of what I know/don't know - of what my experience is/isn't - of who I know/don't know - so maybe check yourself there, Mirkwood. You really come across as a very pompous jerk, in case no one has had the balls to let you know that. If you're trying to impress people - fail. No one with any sense or integrity is impressed by such feigned bravado.

As a side-note, it's actually quite humorous that you chose to attack me and my comment that the Chandler PD dropped the ball on Charles Vallow's murder (which they did, BTW, 100%) - yet you let all the comments by a couple of other posters on this thread propose and promote the idea that COPS have kidnapped the two children and are holding them against their will. Now THAT is hilarious, yet you just breeze by those comments without attacking the poster suggesting such a ridiculous thing - and you choose instead to pretend you know the first thing about me/what I know in this situation - very telling.

Anyway, the only thing you've accomplished by your excessively high opinions of yourself, and your presumptions and assumptions about me (or anyone else on an internet forum, who you don't know from Adam) is to push me over the line into the 'cops are a$$holes' camp. Well done!

You really get upset when anyone challenges you. I’ve noticed you will call people out with names like the best of them. I’m sure I’ll get it from you with a smart response.

The East Wind wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 9:23 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 7:35 pm

mirkwood wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 6:36 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 3:09 pm Apparently not. Also, no need to get all defensive and take it personally when cops somewhere in the world mess up, Mirkwood. The extreme defensiveness you display every time someone mentions that LE might have performed less than stellar makes you appear silly and immature. I'm not one of the cop-haters on the forum, so chill.

I rarely comment on the stupidity spouted off at LE on this forum. I probably comment on less then 10% of what gets said, so check yourself on that one Emmalee.

Also, I only shared a tiny amount of what I've read on the subject here in this thread - so you assuming everything I know about this is only what was gleaned from the video is showing very poor "investigative" skills on your part (oh the irony...) and is quite presumptuous.

Oh, you have all the reports in hand? You have all the years of experience investigating crimes do you? All those years interacting with the prosecution and defense attorneys both before and in court? All that time investigating this particular case knowing all the facts and all the missing pieces to convict for a crime? Who is the presumptuous one here?

The Chandler PD did not fully investigate Charles' death. They took Lori's and Alex's words at face value, declared it as "self-defense", and that was that - closed. Not my opinion - you can "investigate" to your little heart's content and you'll find that that IS the case. It wasn't until a healthy Alex turned up dead last month, with no apparent cause of death, that they started to take Charles' death seriously and wonder if it wasn't actually self-defense after all. Also of interest, Alex had married a woman who follows Vallow's and Daybell's beliefs (as evidenced by her posts on AVOW), just 10 days before his death. But I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything...

You are making assumptions here...based on all that experience you have for all these years in investigating crimes. All that experience knowing how to prove something occurred in court.

And, not that it's any of your business, but to answer your unwarranted and snarky question - I have a BS in Criminology and Criminal Justice.

That is all fine and dandy and does not an expert in criminal investigations make you. It might get you some preference points during the hiring process, but it does not make you a trained detective. Sorry if I just burst your bubble. Not really.


How's that for snark?


Yes, I know you are not part of the anti LE crowd around here, but you have a lack of experience (as most do on this forum) of the inner workings of real life investigations and sometimes, just sometimes, I decide to comment on the lack of experience people on this forum express.

Wow, I'm impressed. Your rants have done nothing but further the negative way so many people think about cops - so points to you for that - for actually promoting the idea that most cops are so utterly full of themselves, so arrogant, that they can't even get the job done properly (although I highly doubt that was your intention - unintended consequences and all).

You have exactly zero idea of what I know/don't know - of what my experience is/isn't - of who I know/don't know - so maybe check yourself there, Mirkwood. You really come across as a very pompous jerk, in case no one has had the balls to let you know that. If you're trying to impress people - fail. No one with any sense or integrity is impressed by such feigned bravado.

As a side-note, it's actually quite humorous that you chose to attack me and my comment that the Chandler PD dropped the ball on Charles Vallow's murder (which they did, BTW, 100%) - yet you let all the comments by a couple of other posters on this thread propose and promote the idea that COPS have kidnapped the two children and are holding them against their will. Now THAT is hilarious, yet you just breeze by those comments without attacking the poster suggesting such a ridiculous thing - and you choose instead to pretend you know the first thing about me/what I know in this situation - very telling.

Anyway, the only thing you've accomplished by your excessively high opinions of yourself, and your presumptions and assumptions about me (or anyone else on an internet forum, who you don't know from Adam) is to push me over the line into the 'cops are a$$holes' camp. Well done!

You really get upset when anyone challenges you. I’ve noticed you will call people out with names like the best of them. I’m sure I’ll get it from you with a smart response.

Hey setyourselfree/themedicareguy - I've missed ya!

The East Wind wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 9:23 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 7:35 pm

mirkwood wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 6:36 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 3:09 pm Apparently not. Also, no need to get all defensive and take it personally when cops somewhere in the world mess up, Mirkwood. The extreme defensiveness you display every time someone mentions that LE might have performed less than stellar makes you appear silly and immature. I'm not one of the cop-haters on the forum, so chill.

I rarely comment on the stupidity spouted off at LE on this forum. I probably comment on less then 10% of what gets said, so check yourself on that one Emmalee.

Also, I only shared a tiny amount of what I've read on the subject here in this thread - so you assuming everything I know about this is only what was gleaned from the video is showing very poor "investigative" skills on your part (oh the irony...) and is quite presumptuous.

Oh, you have all the reports in hand? You have all the years of experience investigating crimes do you? All those years interacting with the prosecution and defense attorneys both before and in court? All that time investigating this particular case knowing all the facts and all the missing pieces to convict for a crime? Who is the presumptuous one here?

The Chandler PD did not fully investigate Charles' death. They took Lori's and Alex's words at face value, declared it as "self-defense", and that was that - closed. Not my opinion - you can "investigate" to your little heart's content and you'll find that that IS the case. It wasn't until a healthy Alex turned up dead last month, with no apparent cause of death, that they started to take Charles' death seriously and wonder if it wasn't actually self-defense after all. Also of interest, Alex had married a woman who follows Vallow's and Daybell's beliefs (as evidenced by her posts on AVOW), just 10 days before his death. But I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything...

You are making assumptions here...based on all that experience you have for all these years in investigating crimes. All that experience knowing how to prove something occurred in court.

And, not that it's any of your business, but to answer your unwarranted and snarky question - I have a BS in Criminology and Criminal Justice.

That is all fine and dandy and does not an expert in criminal investigations make you. It might get you some preference points during the hiring process, but it does not make you a trained detective. Sorry if I just burst your bubble. Not really.


How's that for snark?


Yes, I know you are not part of the anti LE crowd around here, but you have a lack of experience (as most do on this forum) of the inner workings of real life investigations and sometimes, just sometimes, I decide to comment on the lack of experience people on this forum express.

Wow, I'm impressed. Your rants have done nothing but further the negative way so many people think about cops - so points to you for that - for actually promoting the idea that most cops are so utterly full of themselves, so arrogant, that they can't even get the job done properly (although I highly doubt that was your intention - unintended consequences and all).

You have exactly zero idea of what I know/don't know - of what my experience is/isn't - of who I know/don't know - so maybe check yourself there, Mirkwood. You really come across as a very pompous jerk, in case no one has had the balls to let you know that. If you're trying to impress people - fail. No one with any sense or integrity is impressed by such feigned bravado.

As a side-note, it's actually quite humorous that you chose to attack me and my comment that the Chandler PD dropped the ball on Charles Vallow's murder (which they did, BTW, 100%) - yet you let all the comments by a couple of other posters on this thread propose and promote the idea that COPS have kidnapped the two children and are holding them against their will. Now THAT is hilarious, yet you just breeze by those comments without attacking the poster suggesting such a ridiculous thing - and you choose instead to pretend you know the first thing about me/what I know in this situation - very telling.

Anyway, the only thing you've accomplished by your excessively high opinions of yourself, and your presumptions and assumptions about me (or anyone else on an internet forum, who you don't know from Adam) is to push me over the line into the 'cops are a$$holes' camp. Well done!

You really get upset when anyone challenges you. I’ve noticed you will call people out with names like the best of them. I’m sure I’ll get it from you with a smart response.

I am curious though - do you ever have anything to add to a discussion or to the topic of any given thread? Can't think of a single time you've actually contributed anything worthwhile to a conversation on LDSFF. So, what exactly is your point of being here? Is it to follow me around trying to "catch" me or something? Do you just enjoy insulting me out of the blue, when I've never even had a conversation with you? 'Cause that's what it seems like your purpose is here - which makes sense, considering....

So, "The East Wind" - instead of pointlessly following me around the forum and insulting me, what's your take on the subject of the thread?

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 9:45 pm

The East Wind wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 9:23 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 7:35 pm

mirkwood wrote: ↑January 14th, 2020, 6:36 pm

I rarely comment on the stupidity spouted off at LE on this forum. I probably comment on less then 10% of what gets said, so check yourself on that one Emmalee.



Oh, you have all the reports in hand? You have all the years of experience investigating crimes do you? All those years interacting with the prosecution and defense attorneys both before and in court? All that time investigating this particular case knowing all the facts and all the missing pieces to convict for a crime? Who is the presumptuous one here?




You are making assumptions here...based on all that experience you have for all these years in investigating crimes. All that experience knowing how to prove something occurred in court.




That is all fine and dandy and does not an expert in criminal investigations make you. It might get you some preference points during the hiring process, but it does not make you a trained detective. Sorry if I just burst your bubble. Not really.


How's that for snark?


Yes, I know you are not part of the anti LE crowd around here, but you have a lack of experience (as most do on this forum) of the inner workings of real life investigations and sometimes, just sometimes, I decide to comment on the lack of experience people on this forum express.

Wow, I'm impressed. Your rants have done nothing but further the negative way so many people think about cops - so points to you for that - for actually promoting the idea that most cops are so utterly full of themselves, so arrogant, that they can't even get the job done properly (although I highly doubt that was your intention - unintended consequences and all).

You have exactly zero idea of what I know/don't know - of what my experience is/isn't - of who I know/don't know - so maybe check yourself there, Mirkwood. You really come across as a very pompous jerk, in case no one has had the balls to let you know that. If you're trying to impress people - fail. No one with any sense or integrity is impressed by such feigned bravado.

As a side-note, it's actually quite humorous that you chose to attack me and my comment that the Chandler PD dropped the ball on Charles Vallow's murder (which they did, BTW, 100%) - yet you let all the comments by a couple of other posters on this thread propose and promote the idea that COPS have kidnapped the two children and are holding them against their will. Now THAT is hilarious, yet you just breeze by those comments without attacking the poster suggesting such a ridiculous thing - and you choose instead to pretend you know the first thing about me/what I know in this situation - very telling.

Anyway, the only thing you've accomplished by your excessively high opinions of yourself, and your presumptions and assumptions about me (or anyone else on an internet forum, who you don't know from Adam) is to push me over the line into the 'cops are a$$holes' camp. Well done!

You really get upset when anyone challenges you. I’ve noticed you will call people out with names like the best of them. I’m sure I’ll get it from you with a smart response.

I am curious though - do you ever have anything to add to a discussion or to the topic of any given thread? Can't think of a single time you've actually contributed anything worthwhile to a conversation on LDSFF. So, what exactly is your point of being here? Is it to follow me around trying to "catch" me or something? Do you just enjoy insulting me out of the blue, when I've never even had a conversation with you? 'Cause that's what it seems like your purpose is here - which makes sense, considering....).

So, "The East Wind" - instead of pointlessly following me around the forum and insulting me, what's your take on the subject of the thread?

I believe I’ve responded to 2 of your posts. So if that makes me a follower of yours so be it. As for the other comment I don’t know where you are going with that. I’ve commented a couple times on this thread so you can see my opinion. I didn’t know if it was you or not so I had to look it up, but you have now accused me of being 3 different posters on here the other being Cheetos.