The Solution to Poverty

[drtanner]

Lots of critics and opinions out there on what the church should do with its money. This thread is NOT ABOUT THE PROBLEMS RATHER THE SOLUTIONS of poverty. If you wish to vent, or become critical this is not the thread for you. Please out of respect for the conversation keep those comments to a separate thread.

We have seen the disaster that happen when communities are just given money. Case in point, look at the welfare state in America and status all of the American Indian reservations. Truly there is wisdom to teaching a man to fish rather than giving him one.

I believe the Lord wants to eliminate poverty and I believe he will do it through the priesthood combined with community efforts. I find the principles found here to be the solution:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... e?lang=eng

and here is a wonderful example of a community effort that is working

https://liftinggenerations.org/

What are your solutions?

PS There is a difference in commenting or questioning why you believe a solution may not work vs simply being critical of the church. In other-words debate about why or why not solutions may or may not work is welcomed.

[tdj]

It varies I think on the solution to individual cases of poverty. Some are simply lazy and content to live on the doll and charity of someone else. Others, like our home, simply needed a break and an opportunity. Others, like some of my other family members, need help with mental issues and could use some medication so they can focus and concentrate. Also depression is a viscous thing. Some days aren't so bad and a person can function, but on the bad days, you can't even get out of bed the mental pain is so bad, and of course that will eventually cost someone their job, or make it impossible to even look for one.
As far as solving it on a large scale, it won't be. Jesus himself said that the poor will always be with us. So we're never going to solve this issue.

[Yahtzee]

I am a huge fan of the church self reliance classes. Saved my marriage. And I like the approach of Lifting Generations - having them pay for their education with service. I think education is huge and should never be discounted.
But I have family who come from generational poverty and these kinds of classes would not help them. There is a mindset that has to change. Their lives are centered around fear. You would never save money because things can change so quickly you learn that "a bird in the hand" is a much better parable for life than "a penny saved". When you're scared you buy things "just in case" or because "it's a good deal" and you probably won't have the money later. My in law described getting the food stamp check and spending it all the first week because what if something happens and they can't use it later (a common theme in their lives). So they have to buy crap that will last a month. Nothing healthy. Having a unhealthy diet only feeds the cycle.
I think eliminating this fear is the first step toward getting people to even believe change is possible. I'm not sure how we do that though. Mentors? Mental health classes? So many people aren't self aware enough to understand their fear is holding them back.

We also need to stop punishing the poor for saving. My family qualifies for food stamps apart from one thing, a savings account. You aren't allowed to have more than something like $500 (varies per state) or you lose your benefits. THAT is why you see people in poverty with the latest and greatest. They're required to spend money to receive welfare.

Also something needs to be done about these housing bubbles. I can't believe how ridiculous prices are getting.

[Vision]

I am a huge fan of the church self reliance classes. Saved my marriage. And I like the approach of Lifting Generations - having them pay for their education with service. I think education is huge and should never be discounted.
But I have family who come from generational poverty and these kinds of classes would not help them. There is a mindset that has to change. Their lives are centered around fear. You would never save money because things can change so quickly you learn that "a bird in the hand" is a much better parable for life than "a penny saved". When you're scared you buy things "just in case" or because "it's a good deal" and you probably won't have the money later. My in law described getting the food stamp check and spending it all the first week because what if something happens and they can't use it later (a common theme in their lives). So they have to buy crap that will last a month. Nothing healthy. Having a unhealthy diet only feeds the cycle.
I think eliminating this fear is the first step toward getting people to even believe change is possible. I'm not sure how we do that though. Mentors? Mental health classes? So many people aren't self aware enough to understand their fear is holding them back.

We also need to stop punishing the poor for saving. My family qualifies for food stamps apart from one thing, a savings account. You aren't allowed to have more than something like $500 (varies per state) or you lose your benefits. THAT is why you see people in poverty with the latest and greatest. They're required to spend money to receive welfare.

Also something needs to be done about these housing bubbles. I can't believe how ridiculous prices are getting.

Spot on assessment of the generational mindset, plus the negative impacts of governmental regulations have on behavior like saving and spending.

[Connie561]

If you have the internet there at some YouTube videos of people with a frugal or preparedness mindset. For the past couple days I found a woman post" $89 Aldi Grocery Haul with Preps" by, Freedom Homestead. She likes to spend about 75 dollars a week on food, for a family of four. That particular video is good for this shopping week only which will end onTuesday. There are other people who post their grocery store hauls of choice like Walmart, Costco, and Sams. I think it is good to look at the information that they are offering. One of the other perks of YouTube is they will suggest related topics and some offer frugal home cooking videos so you can get some ideas to feed your family.

I just got home from my Aldi trip. I was bummed that they did not have a bag of organic apples for sale . I was able able to buy some of the food on the video along with some other choices for $53.☺

[Jamescm]

The solution to poverty is a world without scarcity.

The next best thing to a solution to poverty, however, is a combination of freedom and Christlike attributes. The problem is that, by nature, these things can not be compelled by people seeking power under the guise of ensuring that a naturally and irrevocably unfair mortal universe is fair.

My two younger sisters and I all illustrate three differing viewpoints to "poverty". One of my sisters has made terrible, terrible life decisions and continues to do so, continually enabled by unwise family and government programs. If you gave her one millions dollars this very second, she would continue to be in "poverty" because that is where she will bring herself back to by her actions.

A different sister of mine skirts poverty due to natural hardships. Her husband spent every day of his life doing honest, hard physical work from the age of twelve, and it all craps out on him as soon as he marries and has a child. They then get cheated by friends and family.

My family and I don't stand in poverty, but we're not all that hot financially, either. Almost every financial issue we have is due to government; paying benefits to my wife and then, with no change in information, changing its mind and charging it back, ruining their own past tax return records and seeking imaginary repayment, us doing what we can to be self-sufficient without running into some fine or insurance after insurance. You can't sell <eggs/crops/clothes/yourlabor/yourbagoftrash/> without some license, you can't make money with YouTube videos for fear that they'll misflag your videos' "child appropriateness" and fine you...

Legislation and welfare are hurting the first example, doing nothing for the second that we and other family couldn't do, and hurting the third. Socialism is both economically foolish and morally unjustifiable, and the harm it does seems to correlate directly with the degree by which it is adopted. One of the most important and clear lessons I've ever learned is that the solution to poverty is not socialism, welfare, or any other compulsion. Such take us in precisely the opposite direction from the actual (next best thing to a) solution.

[BeNotDeceived]

Rather than quibble over our slice of pie, make the pie bigger.

We currently partake of less than 1% of the Earths energy harvest. Work is energy applied for an interval of time, and is a main driver of our standard of living. OTEC can be developed for approximately what is spent on a single space mission, or to recover from one major hurricane.

Once up and running OTEC will greatly magnify our ability to produce food and energy. It too shall put an end to devastating tropical storms, while providing abundant fresh water, simply by implementing open-cycle or my personal favorite Mist-Lift, that operates as an underwater waterfall.

Alas, we’ve chosen wrongly and likely will suffer complete collapse, before coming to our senses.

[Luke]

The return of Christian Morality and a Free Market would certainly do great things.

[Rick Grimes]

Love it!

However, I didnt see anything brought up about one of the most common reasons for poverty in this country and that is single parent households. Too many working moms out there that either got pregnant before being married or both spouses gave up on the marriage when it got tough. It cannot be overstated how this unraveling of the family is a big reason for poverty in families as well as issues with kids getting into trouble with the law or becoming sexually active. The proclamation to the World calls all this out as well, but it is falling on dead ears.

I agree the church shouldnt just be dumping money into the homeless problem as it will never solve the issues that drive this. (Drug addiction, broken homes, sense of entitlement, etc...) The church is correct in pursuing avenues of teaching people self reliance.

[Original_Intent]

The main thing is the government should not be involved in solving the problem in any way. they make matters worse for all involved.

The principles that I think would most alleviate the problem.

The more local, the better.

The individual should be self reliant if possible, then turn to family, and then to church and community.
If help is needed beyond family, the church or community have the right, at their discretion, to require the aid recipient to be involved in both training to become self-reliant, as well as to require the person to work within their capacity. An able bodied person who simply cannot find work should do something in exchange for the aid they get. Understanding that some people are going to have very limited things they can do (but even then, even giving them busy work or some very minor task preserves some dignity that they are actually earning their way.

By aid being local, there are many benefits. People will have a sense of who truly needs some assistance vs. people who are milking the system. Of course, individuals are free to help whomever they want as much as they want. Better if all charity was done that way imho.
Another advantage to local aid is each locality can have their own program and the best programs will naturally be copied by others. For instance, one area may decide they are not going to make it a profitable lifestyle for a single woman to just keep popping out babies to increase her benefits. Another area might say that's just fine, and over time, the places that adopt correct principles will prosper, and those that don't, won't.

[David13]

Rather than quibble over our slice of pie, make the pie bigger.

We ...

...

Why would they not then quibble over their slice of the bigger pie?

Just nonsense.
dc

[ajax]

Liberty - freedom to work and exchange with who you wish

Property - freedom to control and dispense with your property as you wish. Implies freedom of association and disassociation.

Sound money - currency must be sound based on a solid hard money foundation. No fractional reserves. Interest rates must be determined by the market and not controlled. No central bank. This allows the average Joe to save normally and not become speculators in the capital markets.

Abolish the welfare state / Abolish income taxes / payroll taxes / business taxes / property taxes - everyone has a right to keep and enjoy the fruits of his own labor. This will allow the re-flourishing of private charity and charitable associations, which are also more local and humane.

Smaller political units, must take back their rights to govern themselves. One size fits all solutions doesn't work.

Regulations and occupational licensing laws must be reduced and/or abolished.

[mudflap]

Ok, I'll bite.

Jesus said something like 'the poor ye shall always have with you'.

I think the poor are a test for each of us to see what we will do for them. My mission president used to say, "God gives men money to see what they will do with it."

I don't think gov programs are the answer to...well....anything really. The best the gov can do is get out of the way. Churches are only the answer as far as they can enlist individuals to help other individuals.

so.....it boils down to each one of us to take care of the individuals that God puts in our path in the best way we can. IMO, taking care of the poor isn't something that can be pawned off to an organization and forgotten about. I try to do my part, as long as it isn't taking food away from my family. I would do more if I could, but it isn't that season for me yet, I guess.

[BeNotDeceived]

Rather than quibble over our slice of pie, make the pie bigger. ...

Why would they not then quibble over their slice of the bigger pie?

Just nonsense.
dc

Eventually people eating at the buffet line, indeed get their fill.

... Over the past 10 years, the Marshall Islands promoted OTEC power as an energy option for the country with the hope of developing a large-scale commercial OTEC plant to provide power to the US Army's missile testing base at Kwajalein.

While the Marshall Islands plan never came to fruition, a South Korean initiative will see the first OTEC plant for the Pacific Islands installed in Tarawa, the capital of Kiribati next year. A second, larger OTEC plant will be placed on an island in the Caribbean. ...

Yep, Merica failed to come through, but people of the Netherlands and Korea are inching the ball forward. Righteous leadership is the ideal, and Rick makes a good point about we reap what we sow. Given that, and market drivers could care less about any outcome other than maximize profits for the 1%.

Oil reserves, indeed were located where they allowed our bad choice. Said 1% doth continue gorging themselves on the spoiled fruit of OPEC, while the vast majority of humanity struggle to get enough to eat.

[mahalanobis]

The solution to poverty is a world without scarcity.

...

I think this statement's veracity depends on the definition of 'poverty'. A world without scarcity of simply that: no scarcity.

When mice are given an ideal environment (perfect rations of food, perfect amounts of clean space and regions to expand to, toys, no predators, mates, ALL temporal needs indefinitely): they thrive for a while then eventually succumb to depression and ultimately they all die. They die surrounded by every temporal need (fulfilled needs) you could think of.

Trees with continual water don't sink roots. Trees grown indoors (no wind or elements) will fall over for no reason.

This is why I fundamentally oppose UBI. It sounds nice on paper and might even be a decent replacement for our current welfare system. But ultimately if you take away the jobs and the survival instinct, you take away meaning and vision. The result is hell.

There will be no scarcity in heaven. But the people who make it there will have overcome their natures to the point that they will be new creatures and the lack of scarcity will not impede their progression.

[drtanner]

Love the solutions!! Great feedback so far. And no criticism Thank You!

There have been times where poverty has been eliminated and communities have experienced all things in common. From what I have studied about the law of consecration, the principles of self reliance seem to run in parallel. (Lots more to share here) What seems to be different are the potential systems in which the law is administered.

Question: Was the law of consecration in Joseph’s time intended to mingle the community of Saints with the free market of the time or were they intended to be an independent community. (Some really interesting historical narratives here)

[Thinker]

My tithes go to a poverty-stricken area of this world where “poor” in the US are considered rich. When I’ve come across people begging in the US, instead of giving them money (which I’ve seen be used for alcohol), I either give them food &/or a list of local resources (food pantries etc). Real poor who have no resources like we have in the US - are those who need help most. According to the World Health Organization, 1/3 of people globally don’t have access to clean water & live on less than $1 a day.





A book about poverty explained that there are various causes of extreme poverty & gave the example of land-locked countries being more limited as far as travel and import/export. It also explained the “economic ladder” and how often countries can work their way up - except in 2 situations: 1) When they are on the lowest rung (battling multiple problems: war, plagued/health epidemics, failed crops etc), & 2) Bad loans (like when other countries steal their resources under the guise of “helping” their country, leaving them with loans they can never repay). In these situations, they cannot rise above without help. But “help” needs to be genuine not really taking advantage pretending to help, as explained in, “Confessions of an Economic Hitman.”

Before investing sacred money to help, thorough research is needed to figure out what the problems are so that the solutions will be effective.

• Some common causes of extreme poverty:
  1) INADEQUATE ACCESS TO CLEAN WATER AND NUTRITIOUS FOOD
  2) LITTLE OR NO ACCESS TO LIVELIHOODS OR JOBS
  3) CONFLICT
  4) social inequalities like gender, caste systems, or tribal affiliations
  5) POOR EDUCATION
  6) Weather/failing crops
  7) LACK OF INFRASTRUCTURE (no repaired roads so no way to work/school etc)
  8) LIMITED CAPACITY OF THE GOVERNMENT
  9) LACK OF RESERVES (esp hurts when crisis)
  https://www.concernusa.org/story/top-9- ... l-poverty/

I believe we each love best by loving others as well as ourselves - so picking a way to help others that you feel passionate about. Some people I know have helped build water wells, others have helped calibrate medical equipment in hospitals (which were previously so outdated they were useless or harmful). My passion is education - and though I’ve done some - there’s so much more to be done!