Flashback: Church says members must pay income tax

[Trucker]

Bo Gritz was denied a temple recommend because he didn't pay his income tax.

Church spokesman Don Le-Fevre said members are obligated by the faith's "Twelfth Article of Faith" to obey the tax laws of their home country.

"A member who refuses to file a tax return, to pay required income taxes or to comply with a final judgment in a tax case is in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the church," he said. "If a member disapproves of tax laws, he may attempt to have them changed by legislation or constitutional amendment."

https://www.deseret.com/1994/10/19/1913 ... lds-church

So does the church have to pay it's legal taxes, or else it's in conflict with its teachings?

[Trucker]

More:

Income Taxes

Church members in any nation are obligated by the twelfth article of faith to obey the tax laws of that nation (see also D&C 134:5). If a member disapproves of tax laws, he may attempt to have them changed by legislation or constitutional amendment, or, if he has a well-founded legal objection, he may challenge them in the courts.

A member who refuses to file a tax return, to pay required income taxes, or to comply with a final judgment in a tax case is in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the Church. Such a member may be ineligible for a temple recommend and should not be called to a position of principal responsibility in the Church. A member who is convicted of willfully violating tax laws should be the subject of Church discipline to the extent warranted by the circumstances.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng:

So if a church leader is found to have committed tax fraud for the church, is he going to lose his recommend and lose his calling? Even if he is high up?

[David13]

I do suspect the church does in fact pay any and all taxes that it is required to pay.

The exemption does not extend to everything. There are still taxes that the church must pay. If they didn't I can assure you they would fast and furious be after the church.
dc

[drtanner]

Bo Gritz was denied a temple recommend because he didn't pay his income tax.

Church spokesman Don Le-Fevre said members are obligated by the faith's "Twelfth Article of Faith" to obey the tax laws of their home country.

"A member who refuses to file a tax return, to pay required income taxes or to comply with a final judgment in a tax case is in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the church," he said. "If a member disapproves of tax laws, he may attempt to have them changed by legislation or constitutional amendment."

https://www.deseret.com/1994/10/19/1913 ... lds-church

So does the church have to pay it's legal taxes, or else it's in conflict with its teachings?

Yes and they do.

Render unto Ceasar what is Caesar’s.

[Trucker]

Bo Gritz was denied a temple recommend because he didn't pay his income tax.

Church spokesman Don Le-Fevre said members are obligated by the faith's "Twelfth Article of Faith" to obey the tax laws of their home country.

"A member who refuses to file a tax return, to pay required income taxes or to comply with a final judgment in a tax case is in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the church," he said. "If a member disapproves of tax laws, he may attempt to have them changed by legislation or constitutional amendment."

https://www.deseret.com/1994/10/19/1913 ... lds-church

So does the church have to pay it's legal taxes, or else it's in conflict with its teachings?

Yes and they do.

Render unto Ceasar what is Caesar’s.

But the church is not even doing that. The funds in the Ensign Peak Fund have paid no taxes, even though it has engaged in commercial investment and disbursement, but no religious activities.

So technically the church isn't even following Jesus's admonition to render under Caesar.

[drtanner]

Bo Gritz was denied a temple recommend because he didn't pay his income tax.

Church spokesman Don Le-Fevre said members are obligated by the faith's "Twelfth Article of Faith" to obey the tax laws of their home country.

"A member who refuses to file a tax return, to pay required income taxes or to comply with a final judgment in a tax case is in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the church," he said. "If a member disapproves of tax laws, he may attempt to have them changed by legislation or constitutional amendment."

https://www.deseret.com/1994/10/19/1913 ... lds-church

So does the church have to pay it's legal taxes, or else it's in conflict with its teachings?

Yes and they do.

Render unto Ceasar what is Caesar’s.

But the church is not even doing that. The funds in the Ensign Peak Fund have paid no taxes, even though it has engaged in commercial investment and disbursement, but no religious activities.

So technically the church isn't even following Jesus's admonition to render under Caesar.

They pay taxes in so far as they have been instructed by financial experts and auditors to pay them.

[Trucker]

Bo Gritz was denied a temple recommend because he didn't pay his income tax.

Church spokesman Don Le-Fevre said members are obligated by the faith's "Twelfth Article of Faith" to obey the tax laws of their home country.

"A member who refuses to file a tax return, to pay required income taxes or to comply with a final judgment in a tax case is in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the church," he said. "If a member disapproves of tax laws, he may attempt to have them changed by legislation or constitutional amendment."

https://www.deseret.com/1994/10/19/1913 ... lds-church

So does the church have to pay it's legal taxes, or else it's in conflict with its teachings?

Yes and they do.

Render unto Ceasar what is Caesar’s.

But the church is not even doing that. The funds in the Ensign Peak Fund have paid no taxes, even though it has engaged in commercial investment and disbursement, but no religious activities.

So technically the church isn't even following Jesus's admonition to render under Caesar.

They pay taxes in so far as they have been instructed by financial experts and auditors to pay them.

And we will see what the IRS has to say about it.

[drtanner]

Yes and they do.

Render unto Ceasar what is Caesar’s.

But the church is not even doing that. The funds in the Ensign Peak Fund have paid no taxes, even though it has engaged in commercial investment and disbursement, but no religious activities.

So technically the church isn't even following Jesus's admonition to render under Caesar.

They pay taxes in so far as they have been instructed by financial experts and auditors to pay them.

And we will see what the IRS has to say about it.

Yes I’m sure we will, but regardless of what happens it does not change the fact that they are doing and will continue to do what in their best good faith efforts they have been instructed to do by professionals who were hired to give them sound advice and make sure everything is in accordance with the law.

[Tbone]

But the church is not even doing that. The funds in the Ensign Peak Fund have paid no taxes, even though it has engaged in commercial investment and disbursement, but no religious activities.

So technically the church isn't even following Jesus's admonition to render under Caesar.

They pay taxes in so far as they have been instructed by financial experts and auditors to pay them.

And we will see what the IRS has to say about it.

Yes I’m sure we will, but regardless of what happens it does not change the fact that they are doing and will continue to do what in their best good faith efforts they have been instructed to do by professionals who were hired to give them sound advice and make sure everything is in accordance with the law.

The whole thing is just a bunch of drama by a disgruntled guy trying to stir people up and maybe make some money if he's lucky. Trucker seems to like the way Catholics do things, so I'll use a Catholic reference: the guy is probably just throwing a hail Mary, But it will be interesting to see if the tax law is changed to treat wealthy churches more similarly to other charitable organizations. Either way, he's already a hero in exmo land for sure, which is the real purpose, anyway.

I for one wish the church had even more, but a bit of transparency would be nice. We are going to be hated anyway.

[Trucker]

They pay taxes in so far as they have been instructed by financial experts and auditors to pay them.

And we will see what the IRS has to say about it.

Yes I’m sure we will, but regardless of what happens it does not change the fact that they are doing and will continue to do what in their best good faith efforts they have been instructed to do by professionals who were hired to give them sound advice and make sure everything is in accordance with the law.

The whole thing is just a bunch of drama by a disgruntled guy trying to stir people up and maybe make some money if he's lucky. Trucker seems to like the way Catholics do things, so I'll use a Catholic reference: the guy is probably just throwing a hail Mary, But it will be interesting to see if the tax law is changed to treat wealthy churches more similarly to other charitable organizations. Either way, he's already a hero in exmo land for sure, which is the real purpose, anyway.

I for one wish the church had even more, but a bit of transparency would be nice. We are going to be hated anyway.

Blaming the messenger. Shame those that think it's a problem. Do think you a tax empt entity should be making disbursements to commercial ventures?

[David13]

And we will see what the IRS has to say about it.

Yes I’m sure we will, but regardless of what happens it does not change the fact that they are doing and will continue to do what in their best good faith efforts they have been instructed to do by professionals who were hired to give them sound advice and make sure everything is in accordance with the law.

The whole thing is just a bunch of drama by a disgruntled guy trying to stir people up and maybe make some money if he's lucky. Trucker seems to like the way Catholics do things, so I'll use a Catholic reference: the guy is probably just throwing a hail Mary, But it will be interesting to see if the tax law is changed to treat wealthy churches more similarly to other charitable organizations. Either way, he's already a hero in exmo land for sure, which is the real purpose, anyway.

I for one wish the church had even more, but a bit of transparency would be nice. We are going to be hated anyway.

Blaming the messenger. Shame those that think it's a problem. Do think you a tax empt entity should be making disbursements to commercial ventures?

It's done all the time. The Catholic church has all kinds of activities upon which they pay taxes.

As per the tax code, and their advisors and accountants.
dc

[Trucker]

Yes I’m sure we will, but regardless of what happens it does not change the fact that they are doing and will continue to do what in their best good faith efforts they have been instructed to do by professionals who were hired to give them sound advice and make sure everything is in accordance with the law.

The whole thing is just a bunch of drama by a disgruntled guy trying to stir people up and maybe make some money if he's lucky. Trucker seems to like the way Catholics do things, so I'll use a Catholic reference: the guy is probably just throwing a hail Mary, But it will be interesting to see if the tax law is changed to treat wealthy churches more similarly to other charitable organizations. Either way, he's already a hero in exmo land for sure, which is the real purpose, anyway.

I for one wish the church had even more, but a bit of transparency would be nice. We are going to be hated anyway.

Blaming the messenger. Shame those that think it's a problem. Do think you a tax empt entity should be making disbursements to commercial ventures?

It's done all the time. The Catholic church has all kinds of activities upon which they pay taxes.

As per the tax code, and their advisors and accountants.
dc

The Ensign Peak fund is not paying taxes. Why aren't they, since it's done all the time by other churches?

[David13]

The whole thing is just a bunch of drama by a disgruntled guy trying to stir people up and maybe make some money if he's lucky. Trucker seems to like the way Catholics do things, so I'll use a Catholic reference: the guy is probably just throwing a hail Mary, But it will be interesting to see if the tax law is changed to treat wealthy churches more similarly to other charitable organizations. Either way, he's already a hero in exmo land for sure, which is the real purpose, anyway.

I for one wish the church had even more, but a bit of transparency would be nice. We are going to be hated anyway.

Blaming the messenger. Shame those that think it's a problem. Do think you a tax empt entity should be making disbursements to commercial ventures?

It's done all the time. The Catholic church has all kinds of activities upon which they pay taxes.

As per the tax code, and their advisors and accountants.
dc

The Ensign Peak fund is not paying taxes. Why aren't they, since it's done all the time by other churches?

I don't know a thing about Ensign Peak. And I don't know if you know about Ensign Peak.

Isn't a part of the whole indictment here that the church and their subsidiaries are not ... 'transparent'? Doesn't that mean you and others can't know what they pay or not?
dc

[Trucker]

Blaming the messenger. Shame those that think it's a problem. Do think you a tax empt entity should be making disbursements to commercial ventures?

It's done all the time. The Catholic church has all kinds of activities upon which they pay taxes.

As per the tax code, and their advisors and accountants.
dc

The Ensign Peak fund is not paying taxes. Why aren't they, since it's done all the time by other churches?

I don't know a thing about Ensign Peak. And I don't know if you know about Ensign Peak.

Isn't a part of the whole indictment here that the church and their subsidiaries are not ... 'transparent'? Doesn't that mean you and others can't know what they pay or not?
dc

This is a very big problem with what you are doing. You are not listening to the claims and you are ascribing all sorts of motives to people raising the concern.

You haven't looked into this at all but yet you engage and debate from a position of ignorance. That's hubris.

Please look into the whistleblower's claims and evidence before engaging further. There's a 1 hour YouTube video on it with the docs and he explains it all.

[Tbone]

The whole thing is just a bunch of drama by a disgruntled guy trying to stir people up and maybe make some money if he's lucky. Trucker seems to like the way Catholics do things, so I'll use a Catholic reference: the guy is probably just throwing a hail Mary, But it will be interesting to see if the tax law is changed to treat wealthy churches more similarly to other charitable organizations. Either way, he's already a hero in exmo land for sure, which is the real purpose, anyway.

I for one wish the church had even more, but a bit of transparency would be nice. We are going to be hated anyway.

Blaming the messenger. Shame those that think it's a problem. Do think you a tax empt entity should be making disbursements to commercial ventures?

It's done all the time. The Catholic church has all kinds of activities upon which they pay taxes.

As per the tax code, and their advisors and accountants.
dc

The Ensign Peak fund is not paying taxes. Why aren't they, since it's done all the time by other churches?

If other churches have similar funds and are paying taxes on them, they should seriously fire their tax accountants.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjrei ... ttention/

[Serragon]

It is dangerous to take as fact what we don't yet know to be true. If we have learned any lessons over the last few years about the media is that the issue will be framed to make you think what they want you to think.

The allegation is that the Church has violated a tax law. Perhaps they did. Tax law is very nebulous and is always open to interpretation. If they did commit a violation it is quite possible it is just a difference in interpretation.

It is also quite possible no violation was committed and this is just a misinterpretation by the whistle blower. Perhaps this fund doesn't need to pay taxes. Perhaps they are paid as income by the companies that receive it.

I know that it easy to feel a sense of betrayal or hypocrisy about all of this. But we simply have the word of a man we know almost nothing about who decided tell his story through the Washington Post, one of the most fake news media sources we have. Remember that they intentionally lied and led the disparagement of the Covington kids and smeared them as racists and bigots.

Even if all that is alleged is true and the framing by him and the media is accurate, my response is so what? I love the fact that the church has a large rainy day fund. I am gratified that they use it to shore up their dealings that go bad. Much better then the alternative of debt and insolvency. The fact that I might disagree with some of those dealings, like building a mall, is irrelevant. Once those decisions have been made, they need to remain solvent to fulfill the purpose of protecting the area around the temple from degradation.

[Trucker]

It is dangerous to take as fact what we don't yet know to be true. If we have learned any lessons over the last few years about the media is that the issue will be framed to make you think what they want you to think.

The allegation is that the Church has violated a tax law. Perhaps they did. Tax law is very nebulous and is always open to interpretation. If they did commit a violation it is quite possible it is just a difference in interpretation.

It is also quite possible no violation was committed and this is just a misinterpretation by the whistle blower. Perhaps this fund doesn't need to pay taxes. Perhaps they are paid as income by the companies that receive it.

I know that it easy to feel a sense of betrayal or hypocrisy about all of this. But we simply have the word of a man we know almost nothing about who decided tell his story through the Washington Post, one of the most fake news media sources we have. Remember that they intentionally lied and led the disparagement of the Covington kids and smeared them as racists and bigots.

Even if all that is alleged is true and the framing by him and the media is accurate, my response is so what? I love the fact that the church has a large rainy day fund. I am gratified that they use it to shore up their dealings that go bad. Much better then the alternative of debt and insolvency. The fact that I might disagree with some of those dealings, like building a mall, is irrelevant. Once those decisions have been made, they need to remain solvent to fulfill the purpose of protecting the area around the temple from degradation.

great response. Although I think this is actually a big deal, I really appreciate your réponse because it is very reasonable.

[mes5464]

Interestingly, the church had no problem calling illegal immigrants as bishops.

[WikiUp]

How is it commenters can claim the Church pays all required taxes when they most likely have no insight or information on the matter?

Are they employed as tax preparers for the Church? Do they work for and in Ensign Peak Advisors?

I prepared tax returns for corporations as an employee of an international CPA firm and I can't venture a factual statement based on the allegation.

Seems like "RAH! RAH! Team Church" without knowledge to me.

I'm waiting to hear the IRS ruling.

Please remember the Church has done the legalistic dance on other issues; e.g. the first polygamy manifesto while trying to gain U.S. Statehood. The compliance manifesto required by the U.S. Government was couched in terms of "abide by the laws of the land" which turned out to be only intended to be the laws of the U.S.A. Mean while the Church allowed polygamy in Canada, Mexico etc. When the U.S. Government discovered this legalistic rues, a second manifesto was implemented and ALL polygsmy was stopped everywhere by the Church. The Mexico colonies were allowed to remain as they where with no additional plural marriages. Please note my grandfather married a second wife in Canada by direction of an Apostle (who was his business partner) after the first manifesto was implemented, and then told to dissolve the marriage when the second manifesto was implemented. He refused to abandon the second family and was subjected to Church discipline after being sent on a one-year mission to consider his decision. I'm a product of the second marriage.

[Trucker]

How is it commenters can claim the Church pays all required taxes when they most likely have no insight or information on the matter?

Because they looked at what the whistleblower provided and why he thinks it's a problem.

[WikiUp]

Thanks Trucker, and again I ask: What qualifications do they have to evaluate that allegation?

[Trucker]

Thanks Trucker, and again I ask: What qualifications do they have to evaluate that allegation?

The whistleblower was an accountant who worked there.

[etravis0219]

Thanks Trucker, and again I ask: What qualifications do they have to evaluate that allegation?

The whistleblower was an accountant who worked there.

Trucker... I suggest you stop before you embarrass yourself any further. What all of a sudden makes you a tax expert and at the same time an expert on Church Investments? A one hour presentation by a money hungry disgruntled former member? I believe he even admitted that only the top 4 people had full access to the financial reports. How is he an expert?

In a world where seemingly nothing can be trusted, I have put my entire faith in Jesus Christ and in what I believe to be his Church. I choose to take their word that everything is done in accordance with the current laws of the land. We know next to nothing about this “whistleblower” but all of a sudden, we are expected to take his word as scripture? I don’t think so!

[largerthanlife]

The church is a huge hypocrite just like Warren Buffett. They always say that they want to pay more taxes but then they hire an army of accountants to avoid paying a penny. Berkshire Hathaway does not pay a dividend because Warren Buffett does not want to pay any taxes on his shares. The Church avoids paying any Utah state taxes because they control the Utah legislature. The Utah citizens have to pay all the taxes for a huge 100 billion dollar company.

[LukeAir2008]

The documents that Bro Nielsen took as evidence, internal EPA documents, have already been examined by other organisations including ‘Religion Unplugged’ and they have confirmed that the documents show just exactly what he claims they show - that EPA isn’t supporting the Church, the Church is supporting EPA with your tithing.

EPA is not doing anything charitable with its money, It’s just growing it’s already huge capital fund for the benefit of nobody but it’s own bank balance.

The Church has become a huge business. It has so much money it doesn’t even need your tithing. It spends what tithing it needs and gives the rest to a hedge fund.

If I set up a company and claimed tax exemption for my company because I say it’s a charity when it’s not really a charity but just out to make lots of money - I think I would be facing possible jail time.