The church is hiding its talent in the ground

[nightlight]

The Master of Philosophy ^^^^^

[nightlight]

I hate the discrepancies between our culture and His.

It takes sackcloth and ashes for man to understand...

May we see while we have

[LDS Physician]

"The fact that the Church of Jesus Christ has been able to fund the operation of meetinghouses, temples, educational institutions and missionary work—while also building up reservoirs of resources for the difficult days that eventually come—is a model that should be celebrated and emulated by governments and other institutions around the world,"

But what have they done for the least of us? I doubt that Jesus will be very impressed by their "great accomplishments".

You obviously don't know of the charitable organizations that the church funds.

[JK4Woods]

Lets look at the estimated average amount of tithing collected by the church every month.

There are (purported) 15 million members. Since this includes kids, let’s divide the total membership of 15 million and figure there are four members making up a household.

15,000,000/4= 3,750,000 family units

Since activity rate is about 50% over all in the church. Let’s cut the quantities of families in half to find out how many are actually paying tithing.

3,750,000 /2 = 1,875,000 member families who are active.

Let’s assume the average amount of tithing paid per family unit is $160/ month. (That seems low for North American families, but high for 3rd World Families).

Anyway, let’s just go with $160/ month as an average amount that 1,875,000 church families actually pay in tithing to the TCoJCoLDS.

Break out you calculators and hold onto your hats...... drum roll please....

$300,000,000 PER MONTH...!!

There you go...

(Btw... the church is slowing way down on building ward and stake meeting houses. That was the whole point in changing to two hour church on Sundays).

[Thinker]

"The fact that the Church of Jesus Christ has been able to fund the operation of meetinghouses, temples, educational institutions and missionary work—while also building up reservoirs of resources for the difficult days that eventually come—is a model that should be celebrated and emulated by governments and other institutions around the world,"

But what have they done for the least of us? I doubt that Jesus will be very impressed by their "great accomplishments".

You obviously don't know of the charitable organizations that the church funds.

What charitable organizations and how much do they fund - and how effective and honest/open?

[Thinker]

...
(Btw... the church is slowing way down on building ward and stake meeting houses. That was the whole point in changing to two hour church on Sundays).

Strange as it seems, it does seem the church is finding other financial pursuits more rewarding and thus the switched priorities, and continuation of hoarding money designed for God/the least of these. Maybe if they showed honesty in dealing with their fellow man, more would trust them with their tithes, but they didn’t and it seems they have tried to establish a church where they don’t need members.

[Mindfields]

It the church (Leaders) lost all of it's money and the members didn't give them any more who would suffer? Why the leaders of course. The local wards could support their congregations and be just fine. So just who's rainy day are they saving money for?

[David13]

David, I never stated that and in fact argued that is NOT what I believe. Yet you continue to lie about what I’ve written. That’s dishonest. As I’ve explained before, the welfare system in the USA is messed up because it discourages work while encouraging government dependence, and it too often becomes long-term when it’s supposed to be temporary assistance during crisis.

What I have stated is that there is a difference between poverty in the US and in developing countries. Have you ever been to a home/shack with a dirt floor and a rusty, leaking tin roof - with holes throughout the walls too? Have you ever stayed with a poor family who only eats 2 meals a day - sometimes none? It seems you assume everyone in the world are the same as Americans. THEY ARE NOT.

And you seem so quick to judge what you don’t understand. You seem to have never had to worry about hunger and maybe don’t know anyone who ever did.

Again...

My tithes go to a poverty-stricken area of this world where “poor” in the US are considered rich. When I’ve come across people begging in the US, instead of giving them money (which I’ve seen be used for alcohol), I either give them food &/or a list of local resources (food pantries etc). Real poor who have no resources like we have in the US - are those who need help most. According to the World Health Organization, 1/3 of people globally don’t have access to clean water & live on less than $1 a day.
...

My passion is education - and though I’ve done some - there’s so much more to be done!

Well, I certainly don't intend to misrepresent you or lie about you but I do intend to draw you out to further try to identify your ideas and understand them.

And yes I have seen poverty above and beyond what is described or touted as poverty in this country.

But there are those in these threads about the church that think that the church should just give away all the money herein talked about. "To the poor".

And it echoes what I have posted before about how the concept of charity for instance to Africa is very disfunctional, doesn't work, and in many cases makes things worse. A video by the people in the charity business, and those recipients of the charity of 'give the poor a fish'.

The problem I have witnessed, many years ago, was the cycle caused by that. The more you feed those starving, barefoot, tin shack, dirt floor Africans, the more the reproduce and cause ... more poverty ... not less.

And the only organization that I have found that has some of that idea and tries to foster self sufficiency to any degree is ... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And yes, I also know, having lived in Los Angeles for 44 years, the 'spare change man' druggie, drinking phonies.

Most of whom I found knew far more than me about available recovery programs, but just weren't, like George Jones ready yet.

So, everybody has a different solution but I don't think liquidating the church is a good one, nor causing more poverty.
dc

I’m glad that you didn’t mean to lie or misrepresent what I believe. I’m sorry I was a bit harsh in accusing you. I hope you will understand where I’m coming from, better.

It seems - & correct me if I’m mistaken - that you are painting this with a broad pessimistic brush - assuming that all charities become corrupt or ineffective and so the church ought to just keep hoarding money intended for the poor. That doesn’t make sense logically and is counter to what Christ taught in prioritizing those in need. Many charities have been successful in empowering those in need to become self-sufficient, or have helped many with clean water, health care, etc. Education, to me, is largely based on the idea of you teach a man to fish - not just give him fish.

Legitimate, HONEST charities report their financial records - the church does NOT do this & for that reason and others, I don’t trust them with sacred funds. The lds church needs to learn from many other non-profit charities which are open and honest with their dealings with their fellow man... https://www.charitynavigator.org/

The law of tithing in Deuteronomy 14:28-29 states that at least 1/3 of TITHES are to go to those in need. As Nightlight pointed out, Christ asked the rich to give more of what God’s blessed them with - but they refuse.

Lds church financial corruption is undeniable - even independent of this hoarding of BILLION$...

1) They warped scripture to get more money (tithes are supposed to be based on increase not income).
2) They take from the poor by demanding based on income when the poor have no increase left.
3) They disobey the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29 - which is not taught in curriculum about tithing) - which states that at least 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to the poor.
4) Finances are kept secret except Oaks admitted no tithes go to the poor.
5) They use the temple to make money - charging for worthiness. This type of thing is the only time on record when Jesus expressed anger.



The lds church has a lot of good - especially at the local level - the people. But evil, greed & dishonesty has crept in and is hurting a lot of people.

No it isn't a logical conclusion that I think all charities are corrupt.

Just all of those that I have encountered, including all the so called "celebrity" ones. As is mentioned in the video posted next.

And no, I don't think the church is perfect. No one, nothing is.

Like I said elsewhere. Breaking news: The church saves more than it spends.
dc

[JK4Woods]

19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

The Lamp of the Body

(Luke 11:33-36)

22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Do Not Worry

(Luke 12:22-34)

25Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

I love the scriptures you are quoting above.
Thank you!

Modern church members have seen this whole paradigm time and time again:


The Book of Mormon promises time and again “if ye keep my commandments, ye shall prosper in the land”...

Thus we have multi generational Mormon families who accend to leadership positions believing in “prosperity doctrine” which is:

“I am righteous therefore I become wealthy”
And
“I am wealthy, therefore I am righteous”
And
“Since I am wealthier than my fellow man, I am more righteous / smarter / more blessed than the underlings, and therefore God blesses me more and I am worthy to lead and rule over them”


In 40 years of adult membership in the church. I have only had two stake presidents who were working class. A house painter out in Kansas in the late ‘70’s and a green grocer for a local supermarket in northern Utah in the mid-‘90’s

Everyone else have been either highly educated men, or wealthy business men.

[Silver Pie]

The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.
15 What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

Isaiah 3:14-15
2 Ne 13:14-15

[JohnnyL]

How about church schools across the world like the Catholics do. How about medical trips like the Red Cross does. How about job and skills training. How about promoting self-sufficient and gardening? How about a BYU-New York or a BYU-London? How about a mall in Africa? How about large-scale organic farming? How about a network of battered women shelters? How about something like what the YMCA used to be for struggling men? How about a youth program that isn't strictly religious? How about free or low cost distance learning? How about a factory to produce parts for clean water in Africa? How about a fund to people to invest in that doesn't invest in companies that oppose the teachings of the gospel? How about family centers around the countries with classes and recreation facilities? How about supporting music, movies, and other media that isn't vulgar? How about creating a cable channel with good programming, even if it operates at a loss?

All considered.
The church does quite a bit through others. The work with the Red Cross. They have study abroad programs. They promoted self-sufficiency and gardening for years. They work with networks of battered women shelters and much more. (Every charity in Ogden like this that the Church donated to said they wouldn't be able to continue without those donations.) They have addiction programs. They have low-cost distance learning. They've done quite a bit for clean water in Africa. They have TV channels.

And all that is just off the top of my head.

Can you try to be original? Or, at minimum, at least somewhat informed?

And they have $100 billion they could be using, but choose not to. It's not that the church doesn't do anything charitable, it's that it's got a huge amount of money that could be used to do a lot more, but they choose not to.

And no need for the jab at me at the end there. That's just a way to shame me.

Ha ha, really? You try to shame the apostles, then complain when someone calls you on it?

[Trucker]

How about church schools across the world like the Catholics do. How about medical trips like the Red Cross does. How about job and skills training. How about promoting self-sufficient and gardening? How about a BYU-New York or a BYU-London? How about a mall in Africa? How about large-scale organic farming? How about a network of battered women shelters? How about something like what the YMCA used to be for struggling men? How about a youth program that isn't strictly religious? How about free or low cost distance learning? How about a factory to produce parts for clean water in Africa? How about a fund to people to invest in that doesn't invest in companies that oppose the teachings of the gospel? How about family centers around the countries with classes and recreation facilities? How about supporting music, movies, and other media that isn't vulgar? How about creating a cable channel with good programming, even if it operates at a loss?

All considered.
The church does quite a bit through others. The work with the Red Cross. They have study abroad programs. They promoted self-sufficiency and gardening for years. They work with networks of battered women shelters and much more. (Every charity in Ogden like this that the Church donated to said they wouldn't be able to continue without those donations.) They have addiction programs. They have low-cost distance learning. They've done quite a bit for clean water in Africa. They have TV channels.

And all that is just off the top of my head.

Can you try to be original? Or, at minimum, at least somewhat informed?

And they have $100 billion they could be using, but choose not to. It's not that the church doesn't do anything charitable, it's that it's got a huge amount of money that could be used to do a lot more, but they choose not to.

And no need for the jab at me at the end there. That's just a way to shame me.

Ha ha, really? You try to shame the apostles, then complain when someone calls you on it?

Shaming me is not calling me out on it, but instead trying to make me feel bad about myself or embarrassed for having my position, and not material to the point I was making.

[JohnnyL]

All considered.
The church does quite a bit through others. The work with the Red Cross. They have study abroad programs. They promoted self-sufficiency and gardening for years. They work with networks of battered women shelters and much more. (Every charity in Ogden like this that the Church donated to said they wouldn't be able to continue without those donations.) They have addiction programs. They have low-cost distance learning. They've done quite a bit for clean water in Africa. They have TV channels.

And all that is just off the top of my head.

Can you try to be original? Or, at minimum, at least somewhat informed?

And they have $100 billion they could be using, but choose not to. It's not that the church doesn't do anything charitable, it's that it's got a huge amount of money that could be used to do a lot more, but they choose not to.

And no need for the jab at me at the end there. That's just a way to shame me.

Ha ha, really? You try to shame the apostles, then complain when someone calls you on it?

Shaming me is not calling me out on it, but instead trying to make me feel bad about myself or embarrassed for having my position, and not material to the point I was making.

No "I worry...", "I wonder...", "It makes it hard for me to obey like this, but I am trying..." You are plainly harshly judging and condemning the First Presidency and apostles (that's what "church" means in your post). When I showed you your ammo is mostly blanks, you got upset. Here is just from your opening post:

"The First Presidency statement says that they are acting like the wise steward in the Parable of the Talents. It might seem like that because they are getting a return on their money. But they are are actually hiding and wasting it.

Millions of members faithfully give their tithing, which they have been told is necessary for their salvation and to enter the temple to receive the saving ordinances for themselves and their ancestors, and the church receives it and keeps it. The church now has $100 billion dollars that could be used to do a lot of good, like creating church schools, running humanitarian missions on the scale of the Red Cross, creating job centers around the country or the world. There's a lot that can be done with $100 billion to further the work of the Lord and fulfill the mission of the church.

Yes the church has increased the funds, but it hasn't furthered the work of the Lord with it. It hasn't stepped out and launched impactful initiatives. It has done some humanitarian aid, but often in partnership with some other charity, and often taking a back seat.

Church has acted like the unwise steward who was afraid to take acton and do something with the talent.

Those funds can only be used now, but the church buries them in the earth. Saving them for a rainy day. Noah didn't save a bunch of money and buy an ark when it started to rain. The time may come and go before the opportunity to use $100 billion to further the Lord's work passes by.

The church is stuck in a defensive, persecuted mentality, afraid to do good and step out and lead, and wasting the talent that's been given to it."

[Trucker]

And they have $100 billion they could be using, but choose not to. It's not that the church doesn't do anything charitable, it's that it's got a huge amount of money that could be used to do a lot more, but they choose not to.

And no need for the jab at me at the end there. That's just a way to shame me.

Ha ha, really? You try to shame the apostles, then complain when someone calls you on it?

Shaming me is not calling me out on it, but instead trying to make me feel bad about myself or embarrassed for having my position, and not material to the point I was making.

No "I worry...", "I wonder...", "It makes it hard for me to obey like this, but I am trying..." You are plainly harshly judging and condemning the First Presidency and apostles (that's what "church" means in your post). When I showed you your ammo is mostly blanks, you got upset. Here is just from your opening post:

"The First Presidency statement says that they are acting like the wise steward in the Parable of the Talents. It might seem like that because they are getting a return on their money. But they are are actually hiding and wasting it.

Millions of members faithfully give their tithing, which they have been told is necessary for their salvation and to enter the temple to receive the saving ordinances for themselves and their ancestors, and the church receives it and keeps it. The church now has $100 billion dollars that could be used to do a lot of good, like creating church schools, running humanitarian missions on the scale of the Red Cross, creating job centers around the country or the world. There's a lot that can be done with $100 billion to further the work of the Lord and fulfill the mission of the church.

Yes the church has increased the funds, but it hasn't furthered the work of the Lord with it. It hasn't stepped out and launched impactful initiatives. It has done some humanitarian aid, but often in partnership with some other charity, and often taking a back seat.

Church has acted like the unwise steward who was afraid to take acton and do something with the talent.

Those funds can only be used now, but the church buries them in the earth. Saving them for a rainy day. Noah didn't save a bunch of money and buy an ark when it started to rain. The time may come and go before the opportunity to use $100 billion to further the Lord's work passes by.

The church is stuck in a defensive, persecuted mentality, afraid to do good and step out and lead, and wasting the talent that's been given to it."

Everything you underlined relates to the point I was making. It's part of my position.

But you write: "Can you try to be original? Or, at minimum, at least somewhat informed?". that's just an insult you threw out at the end. That's shaming.

[JohnnyL]

Ha ha, really? You try to shame the apostles, then complain when someone calls you on it?

Shaming me is not calling me out on it, but instead trying to make me feel bad about myself or embarrassed for having my position, and not material to the point I was making.

No "I worry...", "I wonder...", "It makes it hard for me to obey like this, but I am trying..." You are plainly harshly judging and condemning the First Presidency and apostles (that's what "church" means in your post). When I showed you your ammo is mostly blanks, you got upset. Here is just from your opening post:

"The First Presidency statement says that they are acting like the wise steward in the Parable of the Talents. It might seem like that because they are getting a return on their money. But they are are actually hiding and wasting it.

Millions of members faithfully give their tithing, which they have been told is necessary for their salvation and to enter the temple to receive the saving ordinances for themselves and their ancestors, and the church receives it and keeps it. The church now has $100 billion dollars that could be used to do a lot of good, like creating church schools, running humanitarian missions on the scale of the Red Cross, creating job centers around the country or the world. There's a lot that can be done with $100 billion to further the work of the Lord and fulfill the mission of the church.

Yes the church has increased the funds, but it hasn't furthered the work of the Lord with it. It hasn't stepped out and launched impactful initiatives. It has done some humanitarian aid, but often in partnership with some other charity, and often taking a back seat.

Church has acted like the unwise steward who was afraid to take acton and do something with the talent.

Those funds can only be used now, but the church buries them in the earth. Saving them for a rainy day. Noah didn't save a bunch of money and buy an ark when it started to rain. The time may come and go before the opportunity to use $100 billion to further the Lord's work passes by.

The church is stuck in a defensive, persecuted mentality, afraid to do good and step out and lead, and wasting the talent that's been given to it."

Everything you underlined relates to the point I was making. It's part of my position.

But you write: "Can you try to be original? Or, at minimum, at least somewhat informed?". that's just an insult you threw out at the end. That's shaming.

Well, you saw how much of what you wrote, the Church has done or is already doing, right? You're blaming people for not doing things they are already doing. How is that original? How is that informed?

[Thinker]

David, I never stated that and in fact argued that is NOT what I believe. Yet you continue to lie about what I’ve written. That’s dishonest. As I’ve explained before, the welfare system in the USA is messed up because it discourages work while encouraging government dependence, and it too often becomes long-term when it’s supposed to be temporary assistance during crisis.

What I have stated is that there is a difference between poverty in the US and in developing countries. Have you ever been to a home/shack with a dirt floor and a rusty, leaking tin roof - with holes throughout the walls too? Have you ever stayed with a poor family who only eats 2 meals a day - sometimes none? It seems you assume everyone in the world are the same as Americans. THEY ARE NOT.

And you seem so quick to judge what you don’t understand. You seem to have never had to worry about hunger and maybe don’t know anyone who ever did.

Again...

My tithes go to a poverty-stricken area of this world where “poor” in the US are considered rich. When I’ve come across people begging in the US, instead of giving them money (which I’ve seen be used for alcohol), I either give them food &/or a list of local resources (food pantries etc). Real poor who have no resources like we have in the US - are those who need help most. According to the World Health Organization, 1/3 of people globally don’t have access to clean water & live on less than $1 a day.
...

My passion is education - and though I’ve done some - there’s so much more to be done!

Well, I certainly don't intend to misrepresent you or lie about you but I do intend to draw you out to further try to identify your ideas and understand them.

And yes I have seen poverty above and beyond what is described or touted as poverty in this country.

But there are those in these threads about the church that think that the church should just give away all the money herein talked about. "To the poor".

And it echoes what I have posted before about how the concept of charity for instance to Africa is very disfunctional, doesn't work, and in many cases makes things worse. A video by the people in the charity business, and those recipients of the charity of 'give the poor a fish'.

The problem I have witnessed, many years ago, was the cycle caused by that. The more you feed those starving, barefoot, tin shack, dirt floor Africans, the more the reproduce and cause ... more poverty ... not less.

And the only organization that I have found that has some of that idea and tries to foster self sufficiency to any degree is ... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And yes, I also know, having lived in Los Angeles for 44 years, the 'spare change man' druggie, drinking phonies.

Most of whom I found knew far more than me about available recovery programs, but just weren't, like George Jones ready yet.

So, everybody has a different solution but I don't think liquidating the church is a good one, nor causing more poverty.
dc

I’m glad that you didn’t mean to lie or misrepresent what I believe. I’m sorry I was a bit harsh in accusing you. I hope you will understand where I’m coming from, better.

It seems - & correct me if I’m mistaken - that you are painting this with a broad pessimistic brush - assuming that all charities become corrupt or ineffective and so the church ought to just keep hoarding money intended for the poor. That doesn’t make sense logically and is counter to what Christ taught in prioritizing those in need. Many charities have been successful in empowering those in need to become self-sufficient, or have helped many with clean water, health care, etc. Education, to me, is largely based on the idea of you teach a man to fish - not just give him fish.

Legitimate, HONEST charities report their financial records - the church does NOT do this & for that reason and others, I don’t trust them with sacred funds. The lds church needs to learn from many other non-profit charities which are open and honest with their dealings with their fellow man... https://www.charitynavigator.org/

The law of tithing in Deuteronomy 14:28-29 states that at least 1/3 of TITHES are to go to those in need. As Nightlight pointed out, Christ asked the rich to give more of what God’s blessed them with - but they refuse.

Lds church financial corruption is undeniable - even independent of this hoarding of BILLION$...

1) They warped scripture to get more money (tithes are supposed to be based on increase not income).
2) They take from the poor by demanding based on income when the poor have no increase left.
3) They disobey the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29 - which is not taught in curriculum about tithing) - which states that at least 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to the poor.
4) Finances are kept secret except Oaks admitted no tithes go to the poor.
5) They use the temple to make money - charging for worthiness. This type of thing is the only time on record when Jesus expressed anger.



The lds church has a lot of good - especially at the local level - the people. But evil, greed & dishonesty has crept in and is hurting a lot of people.

No it isn't a logical conclusion that I think all charities are corrupt.

Just all of those that I have encountered, including all the so called "celebrity" ones. As is mentioned in the video posted next.

And no, I don't think the church is perfect. No one, nothing is.

Like I said elsewhere. Breaking news: The church saves more than it spends.
dc

No, the breaking news is proof of the church leaders’ financial dishonesty has been found. Nonprofit charity organizations are required by law to give to charity but the church set up Ensign Peak only for-profit. That’s illegal and morally wrong.

But yeah a lot is old news...
For a long time now...
1) They warped scripture to get more money (tithes are supposed to be based on increase not income).
2) They take from the poor by demanding based on income when the poor have no increase left.
3) They disobey the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29 - which is not taught in curriculum about tithing) - which states that at least 1/3 of tithes are supposed to be given to the poor.
4) Finances are kept secret except Oaks admitted no tithes go to the poor.
5) They use the temple to make money - charging for worthiness. This type of thing is the only time on record when Jesus expressed anger.

I do appreciate how you realize it’s not all-or-nothing - the church has serious flaws but also good.

[Thinker]