Poll: Effect of $100B Church Fund

[Davka]

“ He is seeking a reward from the IRS, which offers whistleblowers a cut of unpaid taxes that it recovers.”



Let’s say the church ends up on the hook for 15 percent of $100B. That’s $15B in taxes. I don’t know what the cut to whistleblowers is, but even if it a hundredth of a percent, this guy is looking at a $1.5 MILLION payday. (I think I did my math right on that one...it’s a lot of zeroes we’re dealing with here).

I have a hard time taking the motivations behind his allegations seriously if that’s the case.

Nothing stated in the article bothers me. President Nelson isn’t flying off to a private island to drink (virgin) pina coladas every weekend. And since the leadership isn’t profiting personally beyond a salary (yes...I’m aware it’s a “high” salary...discussion for another time), I see the wealth of the church as serving some other, less obvious, purpose, one that will eventually be made clear. If the church were a typical for-profit business there would be more reason to be concerned about money being stockpiled as *somebody,* usually a major shareholder or owner or whatever would be personally profiting from that.

Until someone shows me that this money is somehow padding the bank accounts of the leadership of the church beyond their salary, I have a hard time believing that their management of all this money is motivated by greed.

The whistleblower, on the other hand...

IWriteStuff, I’d be interested in knowing your vote as well.

I think it is more than money. I listened to the hour long presentation on the alleged fraud. There were some of those keywords and phrases dropped during the presentation. The same keywords and phrases dropped by pro-lgbtq crowd. They were subtle. But they were used. Willing to bet there are ties to the pro-sodomite crowd.

Oh yeah, I agree. There are people in the world who would love nothing more than to see the Church embarrassed, damaged, or even ruined. This situation provided a perfect opportunity to “stock it to the man.”

[Obrien]

I have ZERO problem with this amount of money in the church coffers... in fact I hope it keeps growing. Some reasons below:

-I don’t know the mind of The Lord
-I don’t know the future and what that money might be needed for. Economic collapse or perhaps massive growth; or combine those two and you have HUGE expenses but not much money coming in...
-New Jerusalem will be will be expensive to build.
-Tithing is for OUR benefit...not the church/The Lord.
-We are responsible for being charitable and serving our fellow man and shouldn’t expect the Church to do it. We are to be transformed into new creatures in Christ.
-I pay my part and don’t try to counsel The Lord.

I'll try and respond to each point later this week. However, I need to respond to your last point now.
Paying tithing to the church =/= fulfilling jesus's mandate to care for people. The church leaders are telling you to pay them, God is more liberal in His perspective / mercy on this topic.

[Alexander]

I'm paying my tithing to others who need it...not the church anymore. It's sad. To much investing in Babylon for my taste.

[drtanner]

From the Forbes article:

Paul Streckfus of the EO Tax Journal agrees that this matter does not merit IRS attention.
“The IRS does not attempt to question the beliefs or purposes of churches unless extreme (law violations, for example). In the case of the Mormon Church, if they honestly believe they should be saving for the `second coming of Christ,’ why should the IRS question that? Just because there is $100 billion involved? If so, how much is too much? While church leaders have not been forthcoming about this pot of gold, church members can always withdraw their support if they object to this extreme saving or seek to remove the leadership.”


“As far as bailing out the insurance company and the shopping mall, who is to say this was not a justified use of funds to try to save failing investments? In order for section 4958 on excess benefit transactions to come into play, I think the IRS would have to show some individuals benefiting personally from the bail out. Poor business judgment would not be sufficient.”

and from the writer of the article

I have been a CPA for over 30 years focusing on taxation.
“If it is bad policy to allow exempt organizations to accumulate so much, Congress should change the law. There is really nothing here for the IRS to do, making the whistleblower complaint pure drama.“

[ChooseTruth]

It’s likely this was publicized in the form of a whistleblower complaint to shield the individuals from legal action by the church. Generally, whistleblowers are given broad protection from retaliation under federal law. True intent could be just to sling mud at the church while protecting themselves from a lawsuit.

[drtanner]

It’s likely this was publicized in the form of a whistleblower complaint to shield the individuals from legal action by the church. Generally, whistleblowers are given broad protection from retaliation under federal law. True intent could be just to sling mud at the church while protecting themselves from a lawsuit.

Is there really any question as to the intent here? This guy was savvy to know enough that this had no chance of producing a tax liability for the church. This was 100% a play trying to damage the church when in reality it’s just helping the wheat get wheatier and the tares get tarrier. Look no further than the results of the poll for that evidence.

[iWriteStuff]

It’s likely this was publicized in the form of a whistleblower complaint to shield the individuals from legal action by the church. Generally, whistleblowers are given broad protection from retaliation under federal law. True intent could be just to sling mud at the church while protecting themselves from a lawsuit.

Is there really any question as to the intent here? This guy was savvy to know enough that this had no chance of producing a tax liability for the church. This was 100% a play trying to damage the church when in reality it’s just helping the wheat get wheatier and the tares get tarrier. Look no further than the results of the poll for that evidence.

Funny - I was just remarking how this guy has effectively ended his career. This stunt said far more about him than it did about the church.

Hope the 15 minutes of fame were worth it.

[John Tavner]

It’s likely this was publicized in the form of a whistleblower complaint to shield the individuals from legal action by the church. Generally, whistleblowers are given broad protection from retaliation under federal law. True intent could be just to sling mud at the church while protecting themselves from a lawsuit.

Is there really any question as to the intent here? This guy was savvy to know enough that this had no chance of producing a tax liability for the church. This was 100% a play trying to damage the church when in reality it’s just helping the wheat get wheatier and the tares get tarrier. Look no further than the results of the poll for that evidence.

What exactly, this is sincere, is your definition of wheat and tares?

I've found that too often (I've done it in the past myself) people use it to ascribe to those who "leave" the church or for those who disagree with their views. One thing we lost along the way and this is partly because of correlation back in the early 1900's was the idea that we are all a part of the body of Christ. Before It was always a "have no desire but to do all men good. I feel to pray for all men. We don't ask any people to throw away any good they have got; we only ask them to come and get more. What if all the world should embrace this gospel? They would see eye to eye, and the blessings of God would be poured out upon the people, which is the desire of my whole soul." - Joseph Smith History of the Church, 5:259. Now it has become "we have the truth and if you don't believe it, I'm just glad I"m special and was born into the bosom of Abraham, you will just never have eternal glory because we have the whole truth and nothing but the truth."

Instead we reject them and rejoice "the tares are gone, the tares are gone" Sad considering at least 3 chapters in Luke speak about this. The pharisees were angry and considered Christ as unfit because he spent time with sinners. Yet Christ repeatedly called back to the value of those who were sinners and were rejected by the pharisees because of what their sins were. They weren't good enough, how dare he. Instead Christ likened the sinners unto a lost sheep (something of great worth) if that wasn't clear enough He likened the unto a lost piece of silver (again something of inherent worth). We instead proclaim "SINNER - THOU ART NOW TARRIER!." and I myself am Wheatier!.

Yes, nothing screams self-righteousness like that. We proclaim we are the kingdom of God, but verily do not do much inviting to those who don't happen to see the Kingdom in us - and what surprise when we ourselves do not have the Kingdom within us. If we can not see the righteousness that Christ has given us, nor maintain peace and joy in the HOly Spirit always, how can we proclaim to have the Kingdom. Oh sure we have moments of it - but to walk in Righteousness? Those who see something wrong that the church is not spending money helping the poor are somehow tares? Those who are frustrated, but don't know why and can't explain that frustration other than saying well, this is it for me, no more tithing are somehow tares? Is their anger misplaced, probably, but tares, no. Indeed when Christ taught us after teaching the Pharisees the worth of souls in His eyes, he began to comment continually about the poor and rejected, how those are the ones we are to feed. To make friends with mammon - to help the poor. Don't build another barn to store your grain. Trust the Lord. Yet those who can feel something is wrong are "tarrier?" No.

Tares are those that look like wheat, they act like wheat, but do not produce fruit. In the end they do not bow down (wheat bows when it is full of fruit) but stand haughty not recognizing hte Lord, but their own glory. Tares are those that look almost exactly like wheat until the end. They are the ones who look like sheep, but inside are ravening wolves. To call those struggling or those in faith crisis, or those bitter (albeit they shouldn't be) tares, is to not only reject the Savior's admonition to see them as lost sheep or a lost silver piece, but is to place ourselves in teh same situation as the Pharisees or Zoramites and proclaim "I alone am righteous because of my works; I thank God that I am smarter than my brethren who are wicked because they don't know the true Christ."

May we turn inward and realize that true repentance is turning people to the Lord. Because repentance means to "turn back towards the LOrd" or to "have a change of mind." Or have we forgotten that the goodness of God leads to repentance? Romans 2:4. Perhaps they haven't been introduced to the goodness of God because people run around trying to earn righteousness by "doing good" which is the opposite of waht the Scriptures teach. Oh we are to do good, but not because we are trying to earn righteousness, but rather because of His righteousness and that His righteousness makes us righteous. This is a long way of saying be really careful of who you are calling a tare right now. You better be dang sure you have the gift of the discernment and God HImself telling you by the POWER of the HOly Ghost that they are tares- if they are by all means warn away, but general accusations on struggling members caused by a church (the members in general) who struggle to follow the Spirit or heck even read their scriptures daily are foolish. Those who appeared to be tares, but were wheat? Alma the younger, Sons of Mosiah, the Anti-Lehi-Nephits, Paul (formerly Saul) and I'm sure many many others.

If this doesn't apply to you, then great, but I would still like to know what your definition of wheat and tares is.

[drtanner]

It’s likely this was publicized in the form of a whistleblower complaint to shield the individuals from legal action by the church. Generally, whistleblowers are given broad protection from retaliation under federal law. True intent could be just to sling mud at the church while protecting themselves from a lawsuit.

Is there really any question as to the intent here? This guy was savvy to know enough that this had no chance of producing a tax liability for the church. This was 100% a play trying to damage the church when in reality it’s just helping the wheat get wheatier and the tares get tarrier. Look no further than the results of the poll for that evidence.

What exactly, this is sincere, is your definition of wheat and tares?

I've found that too often (I've done it in the past myself) people use it to ascribe to those who "leave" the church or for those who disagree with their views. One thing we lost along the way and this is partly because of correlation back in the early 1900's was the idea that we are all a part of the body of Christ. Before It was always a "have no desire but to do all men good. I feel to pray for all men. We don't ask any people to throw away any good they have got; we only ask them to come and get more. What if all the world should embrace this gospel? They would see eye to eye, and the blessings of God would be poured out upon the people, which is the desire of my whole soul." - Joseph Smith History of the Church, 5:259. Now it has become "we have the truth and if you don't believe it, I'm just glad I"m special and was born into the bosom of Abraham, you will just never have eternal glory because we have the whole truth and nothing but the truth."

Instead we reject them and rejoice "the tares are gone, the tares are gone" Sad considering at least 3 chapters in Luke speak about this. The pharisees were angry and considered Christ as unfit because he spent time with sinners. Yet Christ repeatedly called back to the value of those who were sinners and were rejected by the pharisees because of what their sins were. They weren't good enough, how dare he. Instead Christ likened the sinners unto a lost sheep (something of great worth) if that wasn't clear enough He likened the unto a lost piece of silver (again something of inherent worth). We instead proclaim "SINNER - THOU ART NOW TARRIER!." and I myself am Wheatier!.

Yes, nothing screams self-righteousness like that. We proclaim we are the kingdom of God, but verily do not do much inviting to those who don't happen to see the Kingdom in us - and what surprise when we ourselves do not have the Kingdom within us. If we can not see the righteousness that Christ has given us, nor maintain peace and joy in the HOly Spirit always, how can we proclaim to have the Kingdom. Oh sure we have moments of it - but to walk in Righteousness? Those who see something wrong that the church is not spending money helping the poor are somehow tares? Those who are frustrated, but don't know why and can't explain that frustration other than saying well, this is it for me, no more tithing are somehow tares? Is their anger misplaced, probably, but tares, no. Indeed when Christ taught us after teaching the Pharisees the worth of souls in His eyes, he began to comment continually about the poor and rejected, how those are the ones we are to feed. To make friends with mammon - to help the poor. Don't build another barn to store your grain. Trust the Lord. Yet those who can feel something is wrong are "tarrier?" No.

Tares are those that look like wheat, they act like wheat, but do not produce fruit. In the end they do not bow down (wheat bows when it is full of fruit) but stand haughty not recognizing hte Lord, but their own glory. Tares are those that look almost exactly like wheat until the end. They are the ones who look like sheep, but inside are ravening wolves. To call those struggling or those in faith crisis, or those bitter (albeit they shouldn't be) tares, is to not only reject the Savior's admonition to see them as lost sheep or a lost silver piece, but is to place ourselves in teh same situation as the Pharisees or Zoramites and proclaim "I alone am righteous because of my works; I thank God that I am smarter than my brethren who are wicked because they don't know the true Christ."

May we turn inward and realize that true repentance is turning people to the Lord. Because repentance means to "turn back towards the LOrd" or to "have a change of mind." Or have we forgotten that the goodness of God leads to repentance? Romans 2:4. Perhaps they haven't been introduced to the goodness of God because people run around trying to earn righteousness by "doing good" which is the opposite of waht the Scriptures teach. Oh we are to do good, but not because we are trying to earn righteousness, but rather because of His righteousness and that His righteousness makes us righteous. This is a long way of saying be really careful of who you are calling a tare right now. You better be dang sure you have the gift of the discernment and God HImself telling you by the POWER of the HOly Ghost that they are tares- if they are by all means warn away, but general accusations on struggling members caused by a church (the members in general) who struggle to follow the Spirit or heck even read their scriptures daily are foolish. Those who appeared to be tares, but were wheat? Alma the younger, Sons of Mosiah, the Anti-Lehi-Nephits, Paul (formerly Saul) and I'm sure many many others.

If this doesn't apply to you, then great, but I would still like to know what your definition of wheat and tares is.

Had no intention of striking that chord John, it certainly is a tragedy when anyone leaves for any reason. As far as the saying I’m just repeating what a good mentor Truman G Madsen said one time about the wheat and tares, I borrowed that phraseology from him.

I do think there is a difference between those who leave the church on a quest to seek for truth with intent to draw close to Christ and who harbor no malice towards the church (those seem to be the exception rather than the rule unfortunately) vs those whose genuine motives have nothing to do with Christ and everything to do with feeding resentment and anger. (Like it appears this guy acted out of)

[simpleton]

It’s likely this was publicized in the form of a whistleblower complaint to shield the individuals from legal action by the church. Generally, whistleblowers are given broad protection from retaliation under federal law. True intent could be just to sling mud at the church while protecting themselves from a lawsuit.

Is there really any question as to the intent here? This guy was savvy to know enough that this had no chance of producing a tax liability for the church. This was 100% a play trying to damage the church when in reality it’s just helping the wheat get wheatier and the tares get tarrier. Look no further than the results of the poll for that evidence.

What exactly, this is sincere, is your definition of wheat and tares?

I've found that too often (I've done it in the past myself) people use it to ascribe to those who "leave" the church or for those who disagree with their views. One thing we lost along the way and this is partly because of correlation back in the early 1900's was the idea that we are all a part of the body of Christ. Before It was always a "have no desire but to do all men good. I feel to pray for all men. We don't ask any people to throw away any good they have got; we only ask them to come and get more. What if all the world should embrace this gospel? They would see eye to eye, and the blessings of God would be poured out upon the people, which is the desire of my whole soul." - Joseph Smith History of the Church, 5:259. Now it has become "we have the truth and if you don't believe it, I'm just glad I"m special and was born into the bosom of Abraham, you will just never have eternal glory because we have the whole truth and nothing but the truth."

Instead we reject them and rejoice "the tares are gone, the tares are gone" Sad considering at least 3 chapters in Luke speak about this. The pharisees were angry and considered Christ as unfit because he spent time with sinners. Yet Christ repeatedly called back to the value of those who were sinners and were rejected by the pharisees because of what their sins were. They weren't good enough, how dare he. Instead Christ likened the sinners unto a lost sheep (something of great worth) if that wasn't clear enough He likened the unto a lost piece of silver (again something of inherent worth). We instead proclaim "SINNER - THOU ART NOW TARRIER!." and I myself am Wheatier!.

Yes, nothing screams self-righteousness like that. We proclaim we are the kingdom of God, but verily do not do much inviting to those who don't happen to see the Kingdom in us - and what surprise when we ourselves do not have the Kingdom within us. If we can not see the righteousness that Christ has given us, nor maintain peace and joy in the HOly Spirit always, how can we proclaim to have the Kingdom. Oh sure we have moments of it - but to walk in Righteousness? Those who see something wrong that the church is not spending money helping the poor are somehow tares? Those who are frustrated, but don't know why and can't explain that frustration other than saying well, this is it for me, no more tithing are somehow tares? Is their anger misplaced, probably, but tares, no. Indeed when Christ taught us after teaching the Pharisees the worth of souls in His eyes, he began to comment continually about the poor and rejected, how those are the ones we are to feed. To make friends with mammon - to help the poor. Don't build another barn to store your grain. Trust the Lord. Yet those who can feel something is wrong are "tarrier?" No.

Tares are those that look like wheat, they act like wheat, but do not produce fruit. In the end they do not bow down (wheat bows when it is full of fruit) but stand haughty not recognizing hte Lord, but their own glory. Tares are those that look almost exactly like wheat until the end. They are the ones who look like sheep, but inside are ravening wolves. To call those struggling or those in faith crisis, or those bitter (albeit they shouldn't be) tares, is to not only reject the Savior's admonition to see them as lost sheep or a lost silver piece, but is to place ourselves in teh same situation as the Pharisees or Zoramites and proclaim "I alone am righteous because of my works; I thank God that I am smarter than my brethren who are wicked because they don't know the true Christ."

May we turn inward and realize that true repentance is turning people to the Lord. Because repentance means to "turn back towards the LOrd" or to "have a change of mind." Or have we forgotten that the goodness of God leads to repentance? Romans 2:4. Perhaps they haven't been introduced to the goodness of God because people run around trying to earn righteousness by "doing good" which is the opposite of waht the Scriptures teach. Oh we are to do good, but not because we are trying to earn righteousness, but rather because of His righteousness and that His righteousness makes us righteous. This is a long way of saying be really careful of who you are calling a tare right now. You better be dang sure you have the gift of the discernment and God HImself telling you by the POWER of the HOly Ghost that they are tares- if they are by all means warn away, but general accusations on struggling members caused by a church (the members in general) who struggle to follow the Spirit or heck even read their scriptures daily are foolish. Those who appeared to be tares, but were wheat? Alma the younger, Sons of Mosiah, the Anti-Lehi-Nephits, Paul (formerly Saul) and I'm sure many many others.

If this doesn't apply to you, then great, but I would still like to know what your definition of wheat and tares is.

I
Your definition is the best I've ever seen or heard, but then I suppose because its just what I've always figured.
And don't forget, it is the outcasts of Isreal that are gathered, and they are outcast because of their brethren.

Because of pride and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; and because of pride they are puffed up. They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up. They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ: nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men. O the wise, and the learned, and the rich that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and prevert the way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell! – 2 Nephi 28:12-15

If that does not apply to us then no scriptures do...

[simpleton]

This idea that this $100B, is being saved for the second coming of Christ, is the most preposterous ridiculous idea ever heard of. Which I hope is just another internet rumor.

[Michelle]

.

[drtanner]

This idea that this $100B, is being saved for the second coming of Christ, is the most preposterous ridiculous idea ever heard of. Which I hope is just another internet rumor.

As ridiculous as spending all of your economic resources on a ship large enough to fit two of every animal on the planet because the entire earth is going to flood?

[drtanner]

Matt 7:1-2
“Judge not, that ye be not judged.“

“For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.“

I don't mean to derail the thread, but since we have the JST, it is hard for me when people use the less correct version.

Matthew 7:1 Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people.

2 Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment.

As far as I can tell, it says exactly the opposite of the KJV. It says we are to judge, just to do so righteously.

Since it is brought up, why is 3rd Nephi 14: 1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[Michelle]

.

[Syn]

Remember that one time, President Hinckley said that the church no longer needs our tithes or offerings? Yeah, that happened years ago. The 100B is not a surprise. I'm very happy for our churches financial success. Do you really think they would violate a law of the land, that's just silly.

This scripture has helped me understand why somethings are the way they are:

D&C 130:20-21
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

We still need the blessings of tithes and offerings. When we finally upgrade to the higher law of consecration, tithes and offerings will be done away, until then tithes and offerings will still be essential to our progression.

[hedgehog]

Washington Post is owned by Amazons Jeff Beezos. Who pays zero taxes. This is their effort to take the heat off themselves.

[MikeMaillet]

I may be way off on this one but whatever amount is being stashed, it is not the Lord's money. The money was created by and belongs to the federal reserve (bank of canada, banco centrale de costa rica... depending where you live). I believe that the scripture about rendering unto caesar means that we should not be using caesar's money. To think of it, my currency is the only thing I have that has caesar's name on it.

That $100 billion (amount does not matter) currently has the power to feed, clothe and house many of the world's poor. That power will not always be there because the value of the dollar is set by the people who created the dollar. Right now our dollars are worth less and less every year because the creators of the money are printing more and more dollars that are not backed up by anything. Sooner or later, that $100 MM might be worth nothing and its power to feed and clothe will have been wasted.

There are many verses and stories in the scriptures about money but one of my favourites is found in the book of Mark, chapter 10. Verse 21: Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

To think that the creator of the universe requires money to do good on earth is laughable. The church can either use its wealth to feed the poor or it can squander it on malls... 1-2-3, Let's go shopping!

It's not going to end well.

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

[Trucker]

I may be way off on this one but whatever amount is being stashed, it is not the Lord's money. The money was created by and belongs to the federal reserve (bank of canada, banco centrale de costa rica... depending where you live). I believe that the scripture about rendering unto caesar means that we should not be using caesar's money. To think of it, my currency is the only thing I have that has caesar's name on it.

That $100 billion (amount does not matter) currently has the power to feed, clothe and house many of the world's poor. That power will not always be there because the value of the dollar is set by the people who created the dollar. Right now our dollars are worth less and less every year because the creators of the money are printing more and more dollars that are not backed up by anything. Sooner or later, that $100 MM might be worth nothing and its power to feed and clothe will have been wasted.

There are many verses and stories in the scriptures about money but one of my favourites is found in the book of Mark, chapter 10. Verse 21: Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

To think that the creator of the universe requires money to do good on earth is laughable. The church can either use its wealth to feed the poor or it can squander it on malls... 1-2-3, Let's go shopping!

It's not going to end well.

Mike Maillet
Ingleside, Ontario

Mathew 6:21 "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

[Trucker]

Riches are slippery, too. I would be a shame to save all that money and tithing, only to lose it.

[LukeAir2008]

If they keep it stashed long enough it will be worthless. It’s digital fiat currency, it doesn’t even really exist. It’s just numbers on a computer screen.

They lost 13 billion in 2008-2009. Next time it will be a lot more.

They’ve probably lost money today. The dollar has gone down against the Euro, Yen, Pound Sterling etc.

Wise stewards!? Nah, just gamblers riding out their luck.

[drtanner]

Matt 7:1-2
“Judge not, that ye be not judged.“

“For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.“

I don't mean to derail the thread, but since we have the JST, it is hard for me when people use the less correct version.

Matthew 7:1 Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people.

2 Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment.

As far as I can tell, it says exactly the opposite of the KJV. It says we are to judge, just to do so righteously.

Since it is brought up, why is 3rd Nephi 14: 1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I don't know. But I really appreciate the JST.

I was raised in a family where almost the only thing we were taught was not to judge, ever, for any reason.

Both I and my 5 siblings found ourselves in some bad situations because: judge not.

Once I was old enough to realize there was a JST and learned that we are to judge a righteous judgement I took the counsel to heart and my life improved.

I was exposed to a lot of bad things and even a very bad marriage because I thought we weren't to judge. Lesson learned the hard way.

Here is more from the Church on the topic:

Judging Others
Sometimes people feel that it is wrong to judge others in any way. While it is true that you should not condemn others or judge them unrighteously, you will need to make judgments of ideas, situations, and people throughout your life. The Lord has given many commandments that you cannot keep without making judgments. For example, He has said: “Beware of false prophets. … Ye shall know them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:15–16) and “Go ye out from among the wicked” (D&C 38:42). You need to make judgments of people in many of your important decisions, such as choosing friends, voting for government leaders, and choosing an eternal companion.

Judgment is an important use of your agency and requires great care, especially when you make judgments about other people. All your judgments must be guided by righteous standards. Remember that only God, who knows each individual’s heart, can make final judgments of individuals (see Revelation 20:12; 3 Nephi 27:14; D&C 137:9).

The Lord gave a warning to guide us in our judgment of others: “With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye” (3 Nephi 14:2–5).

In this scripture passage the Lord teaches that a fault we see in another is often like a tiny speck in that person’s eye, compared to our own faults, which are like an enormous beam in our eyes. Sometimes we focus on others’ faults when we should instead be working to improve ourselves.

Your righteous judgments about others can provide needed guidance for them and, in some cases, protection for you and your family. Approach any such judgment with care and compassion. As much as you can, judge people’s situations rather than judging the people themselves. Whenever possible, refrain from making judgments until you have an adequate knowledge of the facts. Always be sensitive to the Holy Spirit, who can guide your decisions. Remember Alma’s counsel to his son Corianton: “See that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually” (Alma 41:14).

Additional references: 1 Samuel 16:7; Moroni 7:14–19; D&C 11:12

See also Charity; Forgiveness; Love; Mercy

I am familiar with the importance of righteous judgements. In either case it is important to recognize the second part of the statement:

and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again

Jesus goes on to talk about motes and beams thus eluding to the real crux of the issues of judgement for most of us, that of casting a judgement on others without consideration of our own limitations and liabilities.

We see this all the time in the business world, with companies stealing intellectual property for example. Business are relentless about stealing others ideas but when they find out it is being done to them they want to as Steve Jobs put it in one case go “Thermonuclear War” on Microsoft when he thought they stole a function of his operating system when he in fact did this all the time and was even public about using the C.A.S.E. method (copy and steal everything)

In the church I’ve seen this happen multiple times as people have come to me in confidence with Concern about a certain individuals ability to fulfill a calling in some cases because of a certain character flaws, and then later come to find out they are struggling with something similar (or worse)

The specific comment of worshiping idols is an interesting one, as I’ve thought multiple times how even this forum could be categorized as such. In particular when we are looking for validation from others rather than truth from God.

My main point is that we are all extremely flawed and I believe that the great equalizer that allows each of us to access grace is the fact that we are sincerely trying to be better. Sometimes that is just a tiny desire inside, but I’ve been humbled as I’ve felt the mercy of the Lord for me and others who have intentions to improve. I believe many here and in the church worldwide are in that boat, but I see many casting judgement by heaping a whole host of Isaiahs condemnations he attributed to some pretty awful heathen nations to the saints and leaders. Bottom line “A Saint is a sinner who keeps on trying,” and although we are not perfect as individuals or a church I believe we are trying to be better and that as we go through difficult things we will “grow in grace”

I love the mercy you can hear in the Lords voice in the following scripture:

D&C 50:40 Behold, ye are little children and ye cannot bear all things now; ye must grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth.
41 Fear not, little children, for you are mine, and I have overcome the world, and you are of them that my Father hath given me;
42 And none of them that my Father hath given me shall be lost.

This does not justify any of our behavior for God can not look on sin with any degree of allowance, rather it illustrates the fact that he knew it might takes us a few attempts to get it right.

[LDS Physician]

There is literally a parable about investing your money wisely so that it grows/multiplies instead of hiding it under a rock until the Lord returns. Sounds like the stewards are doing what they're supposed to.

If they don't do it right, it means nothing to me individually: they'll have to answer for their own sins. As for me and the Lord? He knows my heart's intent when I write the check every month.

[Jamescm]

Doggonit other:
Washington Post is fake news. It's no shock that it said something negative about the Church, and I don't care what they spun, told only part of, or outright lied about. Church, money, whatever.

[Obrien]

It seems that many saints who are struggling with this haven't truly internalized that:

A. This was always the Lord's money
B. The prophets who lead this church are in fact the Lord's prophets
C. The Lord can do with His money whatever He wishes.


... what if Caesar's attempt to tax the Lord's portion is what awakens the Lion Nation? ... Deleted some of the original post for space... Might the taxation of the Lord's money be a part of what triggers the wrath that ends in fire from which tithing itself protects us as "fire insurance?"

Alaris - based on your comments above, I can only deduce your avatar is an actual selfie, and that your helmet is on way too tight. Take it off, so you can see with your own eyes, and think more clearly. Money itself is a construct that was foisted upon the inhabitants of this world. Remember whose plan it was to create money in the first place, and use it to dominate the world...pretty successful strategy to date.

Responses to your points above:
A. I'm willing to bet the Lord has no interest in earthly money. His interest is in how we use our stewardship (and that can be money, time or any other resource we have) to further His purposes. The use of money is a test for us, not Him.

B. I have never, in all my decades of being a member of the church, had a single confirmation that this postulate is "true", therefore, in my mind church leaders have no greater or lesser ability to "lead" (including administration of tithing funds) than anyone does. Because they require members to pay tithing in order to receive the greatest blessings, it could be argued church leaders have a greater responsibility to correctly administer tithing funds that are thus "donated" to the church, and that leads to the discussion of the value amassing $100B v using current funds to address obvious earthly needs. (It could also be reasonably argued that they are selling their tokens for money, but that is a bit off topic to this discussion, so I will forbear to follow that trail...)

C. The Lord does not need money to get things done, should He choose to get something done in this world. He can do it Himself, or (more likely) rely on individuals to follow impressions and accomplish His work.

As to the trigger words "fire insurance", rely on your ability to do what is right and upon God's mercy for fire insurance - a pile of donated cash will not suffice without the correct intent anyway...