Poll: Effect of $100B Church Fund

[SmallFarm]

If I still worked and payed tithes my tithes would be to God whether they were stolen by corrupt men or not.

If you KNOW money intended for God’s purposes are not going for God’s purposes, then you are accountable. Each is responsible for their own decisions and awareness, especially in regards to the greatest commandment “which hang (prioritize above) all the laws and the prophets.”

Once I pay my tithes the law of sacrifice has been fulfilled. If someone then goes to misuse those funds the onus is on their heads not mine.

[ajax]

Supposedly the First Presidency mandated that the funds be amassed until the Second Coming.

Rumor has it the Catholic Church has been doing the same thing for the same reason, 2000 years on...

[iWriteStuff]

Supposedly the First Presidency mandated that the funds be amassed until the Second Coming.

Rumor has it the Catholic Church has been doing the same thing for the same reason, 2000 years on...

thisismyshockedface.jpg (31.46 KiB) Viewed 590 times

[Zathura]

Supposedly the First Presidency mandated that the funds be amassed until the Second Coming.

Rumor has it the Catholic Church has been doing the same thing for the same reason, 2000 years on...

So much money for Jesus

[Thinker]

If I still worked and payed tithes my tithes would be to God whether they were stolen by corrupt men or not.

If you KNOW money intended for God’s purposes are not going for God’s purposes, then you are accountable. Each is responsible for their own decisions and awareness, especially in regards to the greatest commandment “which hang (prioritize above) all the laws and the prophets.”

Once I pay my tithes the law of sacrifice has been fulfilled. If someone then goes to misuse those funds the onus is on their heads not mine.

Well, I cannot in good conscience pay my tithes to those who have shown undeniable corruption (dishonesty, warping scripture to pretend tithe is on income when really it’s supposed to be on increase, using the temples to make money, etc). I believe each of us will be accountable and we cannot blame another for our decisions or apathy. Christ was about taking response-ability, not blindly trusting in religious leaders who show bad fruit.

[ajax]

Supposedly the First Presidency mandated that the funds be amassed until the Second Coming.

Rumor has it the Catholic Church has been doing the same thing for the same reason, 2000 years on...

So much money for Jesus

Funny thing is, or sad, depending on your viewpoint, is that Jesus never shows up. The joke is on us.

"No one in the world, so far as I know — and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help — has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the plain people." - Mencken

or put it another way, "There's a sucker born every minute" - Barnum

We are the suckers, every willing to be lead into oblivion by "authorities"

[Yahtzee]

It's funny (to me) how little this bothers me. I'm bothered by so much these days and barely clinging to what's left of my testimony, but somehow I feel unphased. Maybe it's because I already feel I have little to lose? At any rate I'm taking the wait and see how this all plays out approach. I suppose I could have voted "don't care", but I would have voted "wait and see."

[Doc]

Who really cares? If your treasure is money, then maybe you should look at your own priorities.

The day grows late, the leaves are falling. Money soon will have no purpose or value. I for one choose to invest in the power of the priesthood. Last time I checked, it wasn’t money that is going to bring down the city of Enoch from the heavens. It’s not money that’s going to cleanse America. It’s not money that’s going to make our calling and elections made sure or seal us up from the plagues or abomination of desolation.

[marc]

I selected other. This poll, and the newly created threads discussing this topic and the feelings expressed by so many proves just how much the church is an "idol" to people. The "church" is still viewed not in terms of its members (us), but in terms of the "club" to which we belong. People still want to be vindicated by their club membership and being dutiful card carrying club members. The finance training video that I watched yesterday in my bishopric meeting makes perfect sense now. Some of the bishopric were aware of this billion dollar issue now thanks to the spreading news and the timing is clearly more than a coincidence.

Personally speaking, though I continue to serve faithfully in "church," my only concern is my efforts to keep the commandments of the Lord, pressing forward and strengthening my relationship with my Savior until He makes His abode with me. What church leaders do with the billions is between them and the Lord. My concern as a vessel of the Lord is to be filled with His Spirit and walk in His light and praying always in anticipation of His return. I won't have to give an accounting of "church funds." I'll only have to give an accounting of the talents He has given to me. I hope that I will have multiplied bountifully what He has given to me. I have dedicated my life to it and not because I am a card carrying club member, but because I love my Savior, Jesus Christ and that is what He has said to do.

[mahalanobis]

I selected other. This poll, and the newly created threads discussing this topic and the feelings expressed by so many proves just how much the church is an "idol" to people. The "church" is still viewed not in terms of its members (us), but in terms of the "club" to which we belong. People still want to be vindicated by their club membership and being dutiful card carrying club members. The finance training video that I watched yesterday in my bishopric meeting makes perfect sense now. Some of the bishopric were aware of this billion dollar issue now thanks to the spreading news and the timing is clearly more than a coincidence.

Personally speaking, though I continue to serve faithfully in "church," my only concern is my efforts to keep the commandments of the Lord, pressing forward and strengthening my relationship with my Savior until He makes His abode with me. What church leaders do with the billions is between them and the Lord. My concern as a vessel of the Lord is to be filled with His Spirit and walk in His light and praying always in anticipation of His return. I won't have to give an accounting of "church funds." I'll only have to give an accounting of the talents He has given to me. I hope that I will have multiplied bountifully what He has given to me. I have dedicated my life to it and not because I am a card carrying club member, but because I love my Savior, Jesus Christ and that is what He has said to do.

What is your definition of an idol?

Does defending the church automatically mean that one is putting the church ahead of God?

Maybe we can rephrase "proves" to something else, since we can't know the hearts of the members. I also think we should be generous in our cumulative judgement because we'll be met with that same judgement.

This isn't a personal attack. Just seeking clarity.

[ajax]

I selected other. This poll, and the newly created threads discussing this topic and the feelings expressed by so many proves just how much the church is an "idol" to people.

Are you sure you're not inadvertently pointing out the weakness in yourself?

I have dedicated my life to it.

What "it" have you dedicated your life to? Now substitute the "it" of the church with any other "it". Football, TV, etc.If you feel you cannot let go because you've already dedicated your life to "it", then perhaps you are revealing to yourself the next step but just don't realize it yet. What if letting go of "it" is what's keeping Jesus from making His abode with you, to comfort you.

Don't take this as rebuke, but simple observation. Being on the outside now, who DID set the church up as an idol, these things are easier for me to notice.

[marc]

And idol is something, anything, that we focus our attention on instead of focusing our attention on the Lord. When our attention is divided this way, we cannot serve the Lord with all our heart, might, mind, and strength.

[marc]

I selected other. This poll, and the newly created threads discussing this topic and the feelings expressed by so many proves just how much the church is an "idol" to people.

Are you sure you're not inadvertently pointing out the weakness in yourself?

I have dedicated my life to it.

What "it" have you dedicated your life to? Now substitute the "it" of the church with any other "it". Football, TV, etc.If you feel you cannot let go because you've already dedicated your life to "it", then perhaps you are revealing to yourself the next step but just don't realize it yet. What if letting go of "it" is what's keeping Jesus from making His abode with you, to comfort you.

Don't take this as rebuke, but simple observation. Being on the outside now, who DID set the church up as an idol, these things are easier for me to notice.

I will give your post further thought. But to answer your question and to reword my post, the it that I refer to is my effort to multiply the talents that the Lord has given to me by doing what He has told me to do. I hope that answers your question.

[drtanner]

I selected other. This poll, and the newly created threads discussing this topic and the feelings expressed by so many proves just how much the church is an "idol" to people.

Are you sure you're not inadvertently pointing out the weakness in yourself?

I have dedicated my life to it.

What "it" have you dedicated your life to? Now substitute the "it" of the church with any other "it". Football, TV, etc.If you feel you cannot let go because you've already dedicated your life to "it", then perhaps you are revealing to yourself the next step but just don't realize it yet. What if letting go of "it" is what's keeping Jesus from making His abode with you, to comfort you.

Don't take this as rebuke, but simple observation. Being on the outside now, who DID set the church up as an idol, these things are easier for me to notice.

I will give your post further thought. But to answer your question and to reword my post, the it that I refer to is my effort to multiply the talents that the Lord has given to me by doing what He has told me to do. I hope that answers your question.

Matt 7:1-2
“Judge not, that ye be not judged.“

“For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.“

I have had my eyes opened to a few things over the last several years #1 how much Love, Kindness, and Patience Heavenly Father has with his children as they are “growing in grace” #2 how much my own perceptions and judgements of others have been off in comparison to his #3 How quickly myself and others are to punish or condemn others while forgetting the mercy he has extended to me #4 how quickly I am point out problems without counseling with the Lord on how I can be part of the solutions in a major way

Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

Do those on the forum worship an idol? I don’t know but without truly discerning hearts I wouldn’t cast them or the good they are and can do just yet.

[drtanner]

I selected other. This poll, and the newly created threads discussing this topic and the feelings expressed by so many proves just how much the church is an "idol" to people.

Are you sure you're not inadvertently pointing out the weakness in yourself?

I have dedicated my life to it.

What "it" have you dedicated your life to? Now substitute the "it" of the church with any other "it". Football, TV, etc.If you feel you cannot let go because you've already dedicated your life to "it", then perhaps you are revealing to yourself the next step but just don't realize it yet. What if letting go of "it" is what's keeping Jesus from making His abode with you, to comfort you.

Don't take this as rebuke, but simple observation. Being on the outside now, who DID set the church up as an idol, these things are easier for me to notice.

Normally this kind of comment comes as a whisper. It is poignant to see it this blatant in the open.

[iWriteStuff]

Do those on the forum worship an idol? I don’t know but without truly discerning hearts I wouldn’t cast them or the good they are and can do just yet.

Whoa, that's kind of powerful.... If the object of your worship has been the (clearly imperfect) church and not the Savior, revelations like the current would certainly knock you off balance.

My brother and I were talking about this $100B fund yesterday. He remarked that he was surprised I wasn't more outraged or offended by the news. My response was that I'd been more or less inoculated against this type of news because I'd already faced it several times over the last decade.

First, it was realizing that at the top level we have a more or less paid clergy. Call it a stipend, call it a living allowance, it makes no difference. They don't have day jobs outside of the church building. I had to come to grips with that, and it wasn't pleasant, but that's how the church has been run since Joseph.

Then it was "church has lots of money and properties, yet plenty of poor members". Here I am struggling for my daily bread and the church has gazillions of dollars and land. ("What need does God have of a starship?" - Captain Kirk) I don't fully understand it, but I realize my task in life is to stay in my lane and focus on my personal stewardship. How I interpret and fulfill my stewardship is my business; how they fulfill theirs is clearly their own. God meets my needs as I trust in Him and do my best to be charitable. I don't have access to the church's accounting reports, but that isn't necessary for my salvation. I can see my own books, and I can tell when my books are balanced and when they're not. (spoiler: they're usually not)

In short, I don't esteem one flesh above another and I don't put the church on a pedestal any more. It's flawed by the very fact that it's got people like us coming in and out of the building. I attend and believe in spite of the human foibles.

[marc]

Drtanner, I realize that my comments come off as judgmental, but my purpose is only to provide a different perspective. In any case, IF what I say is true and IF the Spirit confirms its truthfulness to the reader, then the reader has obtained two witnesses of it and can do with it what he or she will.

[dewajack]

I'm not thinking of any specific person when I say this, but when people are in a position of authority, where others aren't really allowed to criticize or question, and those in authority have access to great wealth and/or celebrity status, and they can go unchecked, t's an unenviable position to be in.

It isn't a good position for those in the chief seats, nor is it healthy for the others. I don't know that I could remain unphased by it all and remain fair, charitable, and humble. In fact, it's probably likely that I wouldn't.

We're all jacked up, ALL of us and the Lord works with us imperfect people, and more and more we ought to try and give others the benefit of the doubt and run to The Lord, because He's the only hope, not an organization, nor money, nor anything else.

More things will continue to come through the floodgates and it won't be pretty, but I'm grateful for the role the church has played in my life. The Book of Mormon has changed my life, the ordinances hold a key to the knowledge of God, the church has helped me be a better person, and I learn from many around me. May we all do what The Lord would have us do, we're all unique and have unique journeys.

[David13]

I haven't been misled.
dc

[drtanner]

Drtanner, I realize that my comments come off as judgmental, but my purpose is only to provide a different perspective. In any case, IF what I say is true and IF the Spirit confirms its truthfulness to the reader, then the reader has obtained two witnesses of it and can do with it what he or she will.

Speaking of perspective I think you and I desire the same outcomes but have a different perspective on how the Lord intends to use imperfect people to accomplish his work.

For example, I view this fund completely differently. For me I am disheartened when people run faster than they have strength or means out of good intentions and then loose there ability to bless countless people as a result or worse sacrifice the wrong things out of good intentions and handicap their ability to help.

This fund is how the church is accomplishing its mission. The brethren are trying to be wise stewards (key word “trying”) and as Long as they are actually “trying” to do the right thing they have access to Grace.

The story of the brethren traveling to Salem Massachusetts is perfect example of the Lord allowing The leaders to do their best to make financial decisions:

From the introduction of D&C 111 “At this time the leaders of the Church were heavily in debt due to their labors in the ministry. Hearing that a large amount of money would be available to them in Salem, the Prophet, Sidney Rigdon, Hyrum Smith, and Oliver Cowdery traveled there from Kirtland, Ohio, to investigate this claim, along with preaching the gospel. The brethren transacted several items of church business and did some preaching. When it became apparent that no money was to be forthcoming, they returned to Kirtland.”

Key principle is they were “trying” to do there best Financially speaking and as a result the Lord says this:

I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies. (DC 111:1)

Zion will be established when the gospel of Jesus Christ takes possession of our soul(S) individually. In the meantime there needs to be an effort to spread the good news and allow opportunities for the ordinances or salvation to take effect all over the world.

We still have quite a work ahead of us IMO and this quote for me is also very telling considering he uses the word “most”

Elder Christofferson

“Most of us find ourselves at this moment on a continuum between a socially motivated participation in gospel rituals on the one hand and a fully developed, Christlike commitment to the will of God on the other. Somewhere along that continuum, the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ enters into our heart and takes possession of our soul.

[mirkwood]

Elder Christofferson

“Most of us find ourselves at this moment on a continuum between a socially motivated participation in gospel rituals on the one hand and a fully developed, Christlike commitment to the will of God on the other. Somewhere along that continuum, the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ enters into our heart and takes possession of our soul.

Love this quote. There are a number of people on this forum (and other places) that are not letting that last sentence take hold.

[Michelle]

I have to admit I am stunned by how many people seem to have had their testimony shaken over this issue.

An accusation has been made.

When it is pointed out that the Church is regularly audited and it appears that all its other for-profit ventures up to this point have paid their taxes, it is disregarded.

When the motive for the fund was revealed to further the mission of the Church, as allowed by law, it is disregarded.

When it is made clear that the Church follows the professed principles that it teaches to its members, it is disregarded.

When it is clear that "those at the top" are not being personally enriched by this practice, it is disregarded.

When it is brought up that the man and his family left the Church, that is disregarded as motive for the accusation.

When it is brought up that the man is seeking a payout, that is disregarded as motive for the accusation.

I would really appreciate any insights into what the motive would be for the Church to not pay appropriate taxes on this one fund, when it is careful to follow the law with all of its other non-profit and for-profit activities. I would like to understand who would benefit from this mismanagement.

I feel like God is going one idol at a time through the membership to sift out those who will not choose him above all things.

[David13]

I have to admit I am stunned by how many people seem to have had their testimony shaken over this issue.

An accusation has been made.

When it is pointed out that the Church is regularly audited and it appears that all its other for-profit ventures up to this point have paid their taxes, it is disregarded.

When the motive for the fund was revealed to further the mission of the Church, as allowed by law, it is disregarded.

When it is made clear that the Church follows the professed principles that it teaches to its members, it is disregarded.

When it is clear that "those at the top" are not being personally enriched by this practice, it is disregarded.

When it is brought up that the man and his family left the Church, that is disregarded as motive for the accusation.

When it is brought up that the man is seeking a payout, that is disregarded as motive for the accusation.

I would really appreciate any insights into what the motive would be for the Church to not pay appropriate taxes on this one fund, when it is careful to follow the law with all of its other non-profit and for-profit activities. I would like to understand who would benefit from this mismanagement.

I feel like God is going one idol at a time through the membership to sift out those who will not choose him above all things.

Well said.

Amen I say unto you.
dc

[SmallFarm]

Drtanner, I realize that my comments come off as judgmental, but my purpose is only to provide a different perspective. In any case, IF what I say is true and IF the Spirit confirms its truthfulness to the reader, then the reader has obtained two witnesses of it and can do with it what he or she will.

Speaking of perspective I think you and I desire the same outcomes but have a different perspective on how the Lord intends to use imperfect people to accomplish his work.

For example, I view this fund completely differently. For me I am disheartened when people run faster than they have strength or means out of good intentions and then loose there ability to bless countless people as a result or worse sacrifice the wrong things out of good intentions and handicap their ability to help.

This fund is how the church is accomplishing its mission. The brethren are trying to be wise stewards (key word “trying”) and as Long as they are actually “trying” to do the right thing they have access to Grace.

The story of the brethren traveling to Salem Massachusetts is perfect example of the Lord allowing The leaders to do their best to make financial decisions:

From the introduction of D&C 111 “At this time the leaders of the Church were heavily in debt due to their labors in the ministry. Hearing that a large amount of money would be available to them in Salem, the Prophet, Sidney Rigdon, Hyrum Smith, and Oliver Cowdery traveled there from Kirtland, Ohio, to investigate this claim, along with preaching the gospel. The brethren transacted several items of church business and did some preaching. When it became apparent that no money was to be forthcoming, they returned to Kirtland.”

Key principle is they were “trying” to do there best Financially speaking and as a result the Lord says this:

I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies. (DC 111:1)

Zion will be established when the gospel of Jesus Christ takes possession of our soul(S) individually. In the meantime there needs to be an effort to spread the good news and allow opportunities for the ordinances or salvation to take effect all over the world.

We still have quite a work ahead of us IMO and this quote for me is also very telling considering he uses the word “most”

Elder Christofferson

“Most of us find ourselves at this moment on a continuum between a socially motivated participation in gospel rituals on the one hand and a fully developed, Christlike commitment to the will of God on the other. Somewhere along that continuum, the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ enters into our heart and takes possession of our soul.

Perhaps I should let Marc speak for himself but I think I interpreted his words very differently from you and believe he wasn't speaking critically of the church at all.

[pho·to·syn·the·sis]

“ He is seeking a reward from the IRS, which offers whistleblowers a cut of unpaid taxes that it recovers.”



Let’s say the church ends up on the hook for 15 percent of $100B. That’s $15B in taxes. I don’t know what the cut to whistleblowers is, but even if it a hundredth of a percent, this guy is looking at a $1.5 MILLION payday. (I think I did my math right on that one...it’s a lot of zeroes we’re dealing with here).

I have a hard time taking the motivations behind his allegations seriously if that’s the case.

Nothing stated in the article bothers me. President Nelson isn’t flying off to a private island to drink (virgin) pina coladas every weekend. And since the leadership isn’t profiting personally beyond a salary (yes...I’m aware it’s a “high” salary...discussion for another time), I see the wealth of the church as serving some other, less obvious, purpose, one that will eventually be made clear. If the church were a typical for-profit business there would be more reason to be concerned about money being stockpiled as *somebody,* usually a major shareholder or owner or whatever would be personally profiting from that.

Until someone shows me that this money is somehow padding the bank accounts of the leadership of the church beyond their salary, I have a hard time believing that their management of all this money is motivated by greed.

The whistleblower, on the other hand...

IWriteStuff, I’d be interested in knowing your vote as well.

I think it is more than money. I listened to the hour long presentation on the alleged fraud. There were some of those keywords and phrases dropped during the presentation. The same keywords and phrases dropped by pro-lgbtq crowd. They were subtle. But they were used. Willing to bet there are ties to the pro-sodomite crowd.