Poll: Effect of $100B Church Fund

[Mindfields]

Both Moroni and Nephi saw the corruption of the latter day church. You know the church that would actually read the book. They were warning us, not the Baptists, Catholics or any other religion. What would be the point? They don't read it. The Book of Mormon is a wonderful book. It's too bad that we Mormons don't understand it or for that matter actually believe in what it teaches.

If there exists one starving child, one widow with out heat in her home, or anyone in need that you are aware of and have the means to do something about it and do nothing then shame on you. The church has at least $100,000,000,000 worth of means and saves it for the second coming, shame on them. What the church leaders are doing is contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ period.

I believe feeding one starving child is worth more in Jesus's eyes than constructing a fancy new building. Imagine just how many starving children could be fed with the money used to build just one building. Believe it or not there are ten's of thousands of starving, malnutrition-ed Mormon children living today. In a church claiming to preach the true gospel of Jesus Christ there shouldn't be a single one.

[Trucker]

The church has at least $100,000,000,000 worth of means and saves it for the second coming, shame on them.

I like how you phrased is as $X worth of means. In the news recently there is a news article about how a church is paying off $53 million of medical bills of a lot of people.

https://abc7.com/society/socal-church-t ... y/5772357/

I'm not arguing that's what we should do, but I want to point out that we aren't doing it and probably couldn't do it in our local churches. Families are paying 10% of their income and giving it to the church, and Salt Lake decides what is done with it. We don't really have an opportunity at the local level to do anything with extra funds in a charitable way. Those funds we might use are taken away.

We as members don't have the option of choosing our religious congregation (you go where the boundaries say), pick our leaders (they are called and we simply must sustain), choose how our donated funds are used (the bishop decides the fast offerings, but are much less than tithing which is decided by Salt Lake). To be a member in good standing, you can't do otherwise than to simply comply.

I think it's a shame that tithing is taken away and members have no say in what happens to it. I feel like we are robbed of some experiences because of it.

[buffalo_girl]

Speaking of 'healthcare', since the Church organization has accountants adept at money management, WHY can't tithe paying members have access to an LDS based cooperative healthcare insurance program?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/more-peopl ... 1451867541

We have LDS friends in their middle years who have been members of a cost sharing program for quite some time. They have even had joint replacement and stem cell treatment covered by this form of insurance.

[drtanner]

Both Moroni and Nephi saw the corruption of the latter day church. You know the church that would actually read the book. They were warning us, not the Baptists, Catholics or any other religion. What would be the point? They don't read it. The Book of Mormon is a wonderful book. It's too bad that we Mormons don't understand it or for that matter actually believe in what it teaches.

If there exists one starving child, one widow with out heat in her home, or anyone in need that you are aware of and have the means to do something about it and do nothing then shame on you. The church has at least $100,000,000,000 worth of means and saves it for the second coming, shame on them. What the church leaders are doing is contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ period.

I believe feeding one starving child is worth more in Jesus's eyes than constructing a fancy new building. Imagine just how many starving children could be fed with the money used to build just one building. Believe it or not there are ten's of thousands of starving, malnutrition-ed Mormon children living today. In a church claiming to preach the true gospel of Jesus Christ there shouldn't be a single one.

Your really good at pointing out your perceived problems with the church but offering no solutions. Give us something of substance.

[JK4Woods]

Maybe this whole hubbub will result in a better definition or explanation of 10% of what.

That would be nice. Doubtful it will happen, but nice nonetheless

[Lexew1899]

We need to live the law of Consecration, instead of a bastardized version of the law of tithing. The Prophet Joseph taught his contemporaries all about how to live this higher law. Those apostles tried to get the saints to live it, but failed, because avarice and greed entered too many peoples hearts. The Lord vowed to make an end to ALL Nations upon his return. The Fiat dollar will have zero value. Babylon is a whore that does not bring true happiness. Here is the law as the apostles of old taught. We should try to live by this standard, or the church will be like an old, abandoned barn, as Joseph dreamed...

CONSECRATION, THE TRUE ORDER OF HEAVEN

“Thus saith the Lord unto my servant Brigham, Call ye, call ye, upon the inhabitants of Zion, to organize themselves in the Order of Enoch, in the New and Everlasting Covenant, according to the Order of Heaven, for the furtherance of my kingdom upon the earth, for the perfecting of the Saints, for the salvation of the living and the dead.” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 17:154


Before we continue in this guide any further, we must have a firm understanding of what the Law of Consecration actually is, because there are horrible misconceptions, and complete ignorance of it. If you do not understand consecration, you do not understand how Heaven operates, and you can not in anyway understand what it means to be a joint heir with Christ. These two concepts aren’t mutually exclusive, but are entirely dependent upon one another- the Law of Consecration and being a joint heir.

In our modern society, the Law of Consecration has been confused with an evil, and Satanic counterfeit of this system, communism. Communism is a tool the Devil has used to subjugate billions of people to the stiff hand of a cruel, tyrannical governmental system that strips men and women of their freedoms and rights with unfettered force. It almost always denys men the right to their freedom of conscience, which enables us to enjoy a freedom of religion among other things. When your mind is subjugated to the dictates of the government, which approves or disapproves of your intellectual thoughts, you have descended down the road of Lucifer's plan. Consecration is a system of freedom of conscience, and free will. Communism denies these basic, God given tenets as evil, and a possible enemy of the state. Communism is empowered by its use of force, consecration is freedom to decide if you will participate in the system or not, with the freedom to leave it at any given moment without repercussion.


“We can say to the Latter-day Saints, it is the mind and will of God that we organize according to the best plans and patterns and system that we can get for the present. We can do this, and thus far give to the Latter-day Saints the mind and will of the Lord; but we cannot make a man or a woman yield to the will of God unless they are disposed to. I can plant, I can water, but I cannot give the increase; I cannot cause the wheat and corn to grow. It is true I can break up and prepare the ground and cast the seed therein, but I cannot cause it to grow, that can only be done by the people having willing hearts, ready minds, and a disposition to go forth with a firm determination and a willing hand to build up the kingdom. I will do my part—I have done it.” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 17:155


So what is the Law of Consecration, and why do people confuse it with communism? The Law of Consecration is a way of communal living, in which all things are given to the Lord, even our wives and children. It is the acknowledgement that his hand in all things, and the realization that we are completely dependent upon him, even for the very air we breath, thus all things are truly his, even every speck of tissue in our body. It is not a system of wealth redistribution. It is a system of common ownership, yet is not a system where people must have all things held equally, only commonly with the Lord. There are those who may be richer than others who both live under the Law of Consecration. Suppose for a moment if you will, that the church implemented a wealth redistribution system today, where all members wealth was distributed 100% equally to all members that very day. By the end of the day there would already be those who had more than others. Why? Because some people make more money, know how to invest better, or have talents that enable them to acquire more, in tactful, completely legal ways. Thus, no guarantee is made of an equal outcome to those who follow the Law of Consecration. It is not a system of wealth redistribution at all.

You also aren’t stripped of your property rights, or ownership of goods when you live the Law of Consecration, or your spouse or children for that matter. Yet, it is an acknowledgement that you are willing to live under a united effort; to pool your efforts and resources together, to create a better station in life for yourself, and your fellow men and women who are also living under the covenants of consecration, where all excess is placed in a joint fund. This joint fund, is a replete bank, which can then be used further for the betterment of this community. You may give your deed to the church, and say, “Do with my house and belongings as you will, Lord.” This type of system was implemented under the United Order in the early days of the church. Yet, under this system, the most common person a house that was deeded to the Church would go, would be to the original owner themselves. Perhaps, if some single couple with no children wished of their own accord, then perhaps their larger home may have been given to a larger, poor family, but this system wasn’t designed to rob people, to give to others, like Robin Hood. It was about free will, and demonstrating that we are indeed willing, to give all that we have to the Lord, if and when necessary. It doesn’t guarantee equal outcomes.

Also, under this system, if you wish to leave it, you can, without consequence. You aren’t bullied, harassed, or ostracized for doing so. Try leaving a communist governments mandates, and see what happens. Alternatively, if you would go to the United Order, and say you wish to have all your property deeded back to you, they would do it, and without retribution. They can’t deny you a right to your own materials, which would be contrary to the nature of Heaven, to rob someone. So the biggest impression that must be made upon our minds with Consecration, is the fact that the system operates on two guiding principles, stewardship, and free will.

If one man is particularly successful at running a manufacturing plant for example, they might have an entire factory under their stewardship, paid for and given to them according to the United Order. This factory would likely be bought and or financed, from the collective funds, found in the replete bank, or joint fund belonging to the community. This might seem unfair to some, since all things are held commonly. It is true, all have a right to ask to use something, since all have joined this united collective, but not all have a right to the stewardship of all things. So if this successful man can run the factory better than others, and make lots of goods, or money for the community, it is better that they have stewardship over it and run it on behalf of the community, perhaps even be paid handsomely for their increased efforts and accomplishments. This is the way Heaven operates.

Likewise, if one farmer is particularly apt at farming then another, than they should have larger plots of land with which to farm. In both cases the community is blessed with larger rewards, by those who are particularly gifted with increasing those things they have stewardship over. The community has more goods and services, and more food from crops, because of this communal living. The excess then can be placed in the joint fund, and more property, goods, or buildings could be acquired, to further the success of the community and grow their economic outlook more and more.

The farmer may have more tools, and equipment, and the manufacturer may have more employees to look after under their stewardship, with an expensive building. Yet these stations they are given ultimately bless the community better, than if these positions, land, buildings, or stewardships were handed to those wholly unprepared, incompetent, or those who wantonly disregarding hard work, and would squander these things away without care, causing a detriment. Even though the person who manages this manufacturing place may have more placed under their stewardship, considering all things are technically deeded to the Lord, all own nothing, and they are simply the ones overseeing the stewardship of these items temporarily.

If a person owns a car or tool, and someone else would like to use it under the Law of Consecration, they have a right to ask to use it, since all things are held in common. Yet the person may be requested to pay a fee, or even be denied the use of the item. Because the item is under the stewardship of another, who is in charge of its ultimate care and use. If the person freely gives it to them, then there is no payment required, yet they have the right to request payment, or even deny use of that item if they wish. Perhaps for example, they know that person is reckless, or careless with a particular item, and they do not wish it to be destroyed, which would negatively impact the success of the community. Perhaps the person has destroyed two chainsaws the community owned, and now wants to borrow another. It would be better to deny the person that item, than allow them to destroy it. In such a case, help for that person who need to be rendered to see their task is completed, somehow. And that is what consecration is, love and compassion for one another, while also practicing practical economic measures to follow, that benefit the community as a whole.

I think it becomes clear the way in which Heaven operates when we understand how consecration works. We are given a stewardship, to increase for the success of the community. Some are made the watchmen over larger gardens than others. Some are given more talents, to increase. This system is a joint exercise in progressing the communities success. All are joint heirs in this success, or losses. When we understand what it means to truly live the Law of Consecration, we can better understand what it means to be a joint heir with Christ. I wish every saint understood this concept in great depths. If I have failed to describe it perfectly, then I apologize, considering it is such a crucial thing to understand. Here is a very detailed talk upon this subject that the reader should study if they are not already familiar with it.

“We ask, are they not all equal now? Yes. If the whole Church have consecrated everything in their possession to the Bishop, is there not a perfect equality among them before they get their stewardship? Yes: this makes them perfectly so, as far as property is concerned; they are all in a state of equality, owning nothing. What is the next step to be taken in order to bring about equality of property? The Lord says, “Let the Bishop appoint every man his stewardship,” for, says the Lord, “It is required of every man to render an account of his stewardship, both in time and in eternity.” Now the Bishop begins and parcels out to this man his stewardship, and to that one his stewardship, according to the counsels of the First Presidency of the Church—the authority that has the management and control of the Lord's property. Each one gets his stewardship.

Now supposing one man obtained double the quantity of another; it is not his, but the stewardship is the Lord's; consequently the man is on a perfect equality with his brother still. But there is another sense in which this equality may be made, so far as the consecrating of property to the Church is concerned, which includes the whole of it. I say, who does it belong to in another sense of the word? I have shown you that it belongs to the Lord, and if we are His, we shall inherit it with Him; consequently in another sense of the word it is all ours. If each one in the Church, then, possesses the whole of it, as joint heirs with the Lord, is there not an equality? You may diminish the common property or joint fund just as much as you please. Suppose it were diminished to one half by mobs, &c., it does not make the Church unequal, not in the least; for each one may be considered as the possessor of the whole; he inherits all things; he is a joint heir with Jesus Christ in the inheritance of the earth, and all the fulness thereof. Can you make any inequality here? If each man in the Church is a joint inheritor of all the property, and a part of it, it makes each one perfectly equal with the rest.

Now I defy you to bring about an equality upon any other principle. You may divide the properties of the Church today, yes, if it be possible, make a perfectly equal division of it, so that every man in the whole Church should have his share, and let him call it his own; it would not be one day before there would be an inequality again introduced; and one man would possess that which is above another; it could not be otherwise; the changes, difficulties, want of judgment in the management and control of property, and all these things combined together, would serve to render these divided shares unequal; one man losing a large portion of his property through mismanagement; another by fire, by mobocracy, or in some other way, so that neither would have one half, one quarter, or perhaps one hundredth part as much as some of his brethren with whom he was only a short time before perfectly equal.

No equality can be brought about by dividing property; the Lord never intended such an order of things. It is not a division of property that is going to bring about a oneness among the Latter-day Saints in temporal things, but it is a union of property, that all the property may be united, and considered belonging to the Lord, and to every individual in the whole Church, as joint heirs with Him, or as His stewards. You may imagine, then, how my heart rejoiced, when I received a letter from our beloved President, informing me that steps had been taken for a full consecration of the property of the Church, to introduce the order of stewardships among the Saints of God.

But in regard to these stewardships, it is not needful or necessary, or the Lord never intended, that every man should possess an equal amount of stewardship with his brother. Why? Because God has given to some men greater ability to manage and control property than others. He may give to one, one talent; to another, two; to another, three; to another, five; and to another, ten; and then command them to make use of these talents according to the instructions and revelations given, and be accountable to Him who gave them. “It is required of every man,” says the Lord, “to be accountable to me in their stewardships, both in time and in eternity;” consequently these stewards have to render all their accounts to some one in time, but to whom? To the Lord's Bishop—to those whom the Lord has appointed to receive the accounts. And if a man undertakes to squander the stewardship which the Lord has entrusted to him, He takes it away, and gives it to another who is a more wise steward; one who will manage His property in such a way as to benefit the whole; each one seeking the interest of the whole as well as of himself.

Each one is to be considered as possessor of all things in the Church: but if it be all common property, how is it that the Saints can get along and give an account of their stewardship of property? Will not one brother go and pick up his brother's plow, and take it off, without asking him for it, imagining that he is the possessor of all things? Yes, if that brother had no understanding he would do it, but when he comes to understand the law of the Lord, he will find that all these stewardships are controlled by the wisest kind of laws; hence the Lord says, “Thou shall not take thy brother's garment; thou shalt pay for that which thou dost receive from thy brother.” Notwithstanding the whole property belongs to the Lord, and to each one as joint heirs, yet the Lord has given strict laws with regard to the stewardships, so that one has no business to go and pick up his neighbor's ax, or take any of his stewardship from him, without leave; but he is to pay for that which he receives from his brother steward, unless he borrow it by fairly asking for it.

On this principle it would be an easy matter for each steward to render an account of his time; and if necessary he could account for every item of his stewardship. But if it were permitted to run at random, according to the vague ideas of common stock in some societies in the world, away would go a man's hat, or his coat, and he could render no account of it at all. But according to the strict principle which the Lord has ordained, he could show to his Bishop a full account of everything in his stewardship—that he has gained so much here, and made so much there, upon the Lord's property. What says the Bishop? “Well done, good and faithful steward, thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will enlarge that stewardship,” providing he had anything to enlarge it with. “You have gained other talents; you have increased upon that entrusted to your charge; you have not squandered it away foolishly for that which would not profit you.”

There would be no desire on the part of stewards to steal, “For, says one, If I go and steal from another steward, it is all the Lord's, and it would do just as much good in the hands of that steward to whom it was entrusted, as if I were to possess it by stealing it from him.”

How much every Saint ought to be interested for this order of things to be brought about, realizing that all the property of the Church is for his own good as well as for the good of the whole body.

But in regard to these inequalities in stewardship: I will show you another principle where men may have equal judgment, and yet there may be an inequality of stewardships; it is in consequence of the various branches of business in which they may be engaged. It is well known that for farming purposes, it does not require the same skill as for manufacturing many articles, nor the same capital. And the ingenious mechanic, who understands the nature or construction of machinery, might have to be entrusted with a stewardship of one hundred thousand dollars worth of property to establish his manufactory, and work it so as to have it prove a benefit to the whole Church; and without this amount being put into his hands, as a steward, he might not be able to accomplish anything needed in the particular branch of manufacturing with which he was familiar. The stewardships, in such cases, would be different, not only in kind, but in the amount or value of the stewardship.

Let me illustrate this in another way; not but what I suppose all the Saints understand it, but you only want to be put in mind of that you have understood for years, but have not perhaps practiced upon it; and unless a people practice upon that they do understand, it does not benefit them much. Suppose a man have twelve sons, and he had according to the laws of the land 78 acres of ground; he gives to his oldest son twelve acres as a steward; he gives to his next son eleven acres, and to the next ten, and so on down to the youngest, which he gives one acre; and he says unto them, “Manage these different inheritances that I have set off to you, and gain all you can;” would those sons have any right or title to call that property their own? No: they would say, “It is father's property, and he has told us to go and occupy it, and he has given us rules by which we are to be governed; that the youngest may not encroach upon the oldest, nor any one encroach upon another, but that each stewardship may be managed and controlled according to the regulations he has given, and at the end of the year each of us must render a strict account to our father of every iota of our business transactions, of our losses and gains in trading, etc.” Now all this property, we see, belongs to the father, but it is all for the benefit of the twelve sons; they are all to be made joint heirs with the father in the possession of it. In due time, when they have learned the law the father has ordained, they will be prepared to enter as joint owners upon the grand inheritances, not only of 78 acres, but to possess all things that the father has.

Temporal things are a type of heavenly things, as the Lord says, in one of the revelations, “All things have their likeness, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual.” Does this order of things—the equality of property—have its likeness? Yes, in the heavens, and it is typical of that celestial order that we are all praying for, that we all desire the Lord to bestow upon us. We all feel very anxious to enter into the fulness of celestial glory, and inherit thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, and to have kingdoms appointed to us, and to receive crowns and to sway a scepter over kingdoms, as wise rulers. If we want to get there, we must begin here, and learn the order that is to be there. If we should have a division of property here, as we have had heretofore, and continue this order of things, as has been for many years back, and never should begin to practice upon this equality of things which God has ordained in His law, when we come to enter the courts above, we should be ignoramuses; we could say, “We read in your law something about it, but the people did not practice it, they were careless, and did not keep the law.” And now we do not know how to manage this celestial glory, and these kingdoms, and these worlds placed under our charge; for we are to give an account, not only in time, but in eternity, of our stewardship; consequently we must improve upon the true order of things here, which is typical of that which is hereafter; and if we learn the lessons here, everything there will be plain before us, and we will be able to enter into the very things we have been practicing years before. There will be an inequality, no doubt, in some respects in the eternal worlds, in proportion to the eternal things that will be entrusted to the servants, as in temporal things; but there will be a perfect equality in another respect; the revelation says, “He maketh them equal in might, and in power, and in dominion.”

Did you ever think of that? It is only in one respect. Each one will be made joint heir of all things in heaven, and upon earth. What more can a person want, if he is made a joint heir of all things; and one revelation says, he that is a faithful and wise steward in time shall inherit all things; consequently they are equal in dominion, and in power, and in might, as the Vision states. This don't say that each one shall actually control, and govern, and manage all things; that is a very different thing; just as it is here in temporal things, though each person may be considered as the inheritor of all the properties of the Church; yet when he comes to the management of property, he has only a share; so in heavenly things, a person may have the management of only one world, or of two, or of three, or of as many as there are particles of dust that compose our globe, yet, after all, each can proclaim himself as the inheritor of all things, being a joint heir of the grand universal inheritance.

There is no division of celestial glory, imparting to each one an equality of dominion, and might, and power; it is not to be divided, but there is an equality in the union of all these things. That is what we want to get at here; we want to learn the alphabet of it here, and advance to the a, be, abbs, and get over into two syllables, and keep on until we understand all about the celestial order by practice in this world, and then we will learn the laws that are to govern the different individuals that control and manage certain portions of the great joint stock inheritance; we will learn the laws that are to rule and govern between man and man; and we will not be ignorant of it when we go into the next world, we will find there that one kingdom will not have the right to encroach upon the royalty of another and take away its right, but each one will be governed by true and holy laws. Upon this principle, and this only, can we understand those revelations which so often speak of the principles of equality in the eternal worlds. Equality of dominion we cannot understand, by supposing each person that comes into the celestial glory is going to have the same number of worlds, and of kingdoms, and thrones set off to him that those have who have been in the celestial glory millions of ages—that he is going to have the same number of principalities and powers, and servants or angels to wait upon him to carry out his commands. An equality of dominion is that that I have already explained, each one inheriting all things, according to the laws God has ordained for celestial beings, but not directly or personally controlling only that which is placed under his management.” Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses 2:99-103

If that isn’t clear, I don’t know what is. We must understand how consecration works in this life, or as Orson Pratt says, we would be “ignoramuses” in the life to come. Unfortunately, we do not currently practice the Law of Consecration as a church body, but operate under the lesser Law of Tithing, which is a poor substitute. Some people feel they pay one tenth of their salary, and are then fully serving the Lord and his aims in teaching us to live as a united community. Yet, they are not serving the Lord by paying one tenth, or by paying two tenths, or any tenths. Under the Law of Consecration, we are asked to give 100% to the Lord, and the Lord will bless us as joint heirs with him. We have so little in comparison to him, we are the true beneficiaries of this arrangement. It would be foolish to not give 100%. But because of pride and jealousy, many were not able to obey the Law of Consecration. Not simply the rich, but particularly the poor, who did not appreciate the fact that consecration isn’t wealth redistribution, or a guarantee of equal results.

Tithing itself is not a failure, but the people have failed in living the laws of the Celestial kingdom, by pridefully refusing to obey the higher Law of Consecration. The Law of Tithing has changed considerably over the years as well. Going from completely voluntary amounts, to five percent, to its current ten percent. Yet, I personally feel that the Law of Tithing is horribly inadequate in serving the interests of the Lord properly, in removing us from being materialistic minded, as we rigidly focus on parting out what is ours and what is the Lords (all of which is the Lord's and should be in our mind, though we dole out a tenth, like clutching misers). I therefore feel, tithing is a poor reflection of accurately living Celestial law, or exercising a communal care of our brothers and sisters. Brigham Young instructed people on several occasions to pay whatever they could afford, which I think is actually the most accurate, and best example of the true Law of Tithing. Therefore, if a person pays less than one tenth, but it is the absolute most they can afford, than that would have been considered a full tithe in President Young’s definition.

This makes sense to me, and seemed to be the way Jesus Christ understood the Law of Tithing as well. If this is not so, then why would Christ have given us the example of the widow's mite, as an example of a valiant tithe payer? Although some are rigidly set in paying one tenth “gross”, I do not personally feel that is even an accurate interpretation of the Law of Tithing, perhaps some should pay more, even much more, if that is what they can afford. Nor do I feel that only giving to the Church is an appropriate measure of obeying this law either, since all of us are the children of God.

“And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” Saint Matthew 25:40

Yet, I would leave it up to each person to make their own interpretation of this Law of Tithing, and live it to the best of their own abilities, as their circumstances permit. If you are confused on the matter, pay a full tenth. The matter of pride is our greatest stumbling block, in keeping us from living Celestial laws and receiving Celestial rewards. Why then do we deal so horribly with pride and jealousy? It is simply a state we must overcome as a natural man. But, living the Law of Consecration is the best antidote to deal with pride we are told, so I feel it is unfortunate that we do not live it as a church body today.

“But there is danger, after having been made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and having had the gifts of the Spirit made manifest more or less according to our faith, if we become lifted up in the pride of our hearts and think, because we have gathered an abundance of the wealth of this world, that we are a little better than our poor brother who labors eight or ten hours a day at the hardest kind of labor. Any person having the name of Latter-day Saint who feels that he is better than, and distinguishes himself from, the poor and supposes that he belongs to a little higher class than they, is in danger. “Beware of pride, lest you become like unto the Nephites of old.”

In order that this pride may be done away, there must necessarily be another order of things in regard to property.

Why does pride exist at all? Let us make a little inquiry about this. Do you know the reason? It all arises out of the love of riches. This is what generally constitutes pride. Now supposing you were all brought on a level in regard to property by a full consecration of everything that you have into a common stock fund, would there be among that number one who should thus consecrate all that he had, who would have anything to boast of above his neighbor? Not at all. He might have the use of property, one man might have perhaps a hundred times more than another, to use as a steward or agent for this general fund; but when he has used it he has his living out of it—his food, his raiment, the necessaries and comforts of life, whether he handles hundreds of thousands or merely a small stewardship, for the man that takes charge of a great manufacturing establishment would require more funds than he who has a small farm, but the funds would not belong to him, he only has his food, raiment and the necessaries and comforts of life. But here is another branch of business, just as important, as far as it goes, as this large manufacturing establishment. What is it? To make mortar, to lay up our buildings, for without them we should soon suffer. The man who makes mortar, then, is just as honorable as the man who takes charge of a large establishment which requires five hundred thousand dollars to carry it on. But in both cases, the surplus of their labor, after taking therefrom the necessaries of life, goes to the common stock fund; and the man who has had charge of the large establishment has nothing that he can boast of over the man who makes mortar—one is just as rich as the other.

But I know there are many Latter-day Saints who have formed an erroneous idea or opinion in regard to this common stock fund. Some for want of reflection, may suppose that every man and every woman must have the same fashioned houses to live in, or there would not be an equality; they must have the same amount of furniture, or there would not be an equality. Some may suppose that all must have the same kind of bedding and everything precisely alike or there would be no equality. But this is not the way God manifests himself in all the works of his hands. Go to the field, the pasture or meadow, and learn wisdom. Search from one end of the pasture to the other and see if you can find two blades of grass that are exactly alike. It cannot be done, there is a little deviation, a little variety, and hence we see from this that God delights in variety. But because one blade of grass might be formed a little more pleasing to the eye than another, would the first have any right, if it could reason, to say, “I am above that other?” Not at all. It was made for a certain purpose, and so in regard to everything else. No two men upon the face of the earth have the same features. We have the general characteristics of the human form, and we do not look like the original of man according to Darwin's idea; we do not look like the monkey or baboon, from which Darwin says man originated. Men the world over, have many features bearing a general resemblance, and their form is molded in the image of the Most High. But when you come to scan the features of man minutely, you will see some deviation in the countenances of all men throughout all creation. Now, are they not equal? Do those little distinguishing characteristics in the features make them unequal? Not in the least. Then, because it might fall to my lot to make mortar, and to another man's to take charge of a great store of merchandise, both of us being agents, that does not make the mercantile agent any better than the man who makes the mortar, and I should not expect to wear the same kind of apparel that the man did who was behind the counter. If I was making mortar I should not want on broadcloth, silk, or satin; I should want apparel adapted to the particular class of labor I was engaged in. Hence, there will be a distinction in these things.” Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses 17:31-32

[nightlight]

Both Moroni and Nephi saw the corruption of the latter day church. You know the church that would actually read the book. They were warning us, not the Baptists, Catholics or any other religion. What would be the point? They don't read it. The Book of Mormon is a wonderful book. It's too bad that we Mormons don't understand it or for that matter actually believe in what it teaches.

If there exists one starving child, one widow with out heat in her home, or anyone in need that you are aware of and have the means to do something about it and do nothing then shame on you. The church has at least $100,000,000,000 worth of means and saves it for the second coming, shame on them. What the church leaders are doing is contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ period.

I believe feeding one starving child is worth more in Jesus's eyes than constructing a fancy new building. Imagine just how many starving children could be fed with the money used to build just one building. Believe it or not there are ten's of thousands of starving, malnutrition-ed Mormon children living today. In a church claiming to preach the true gospel of Jesus Christ there shouldn't be a single one.

Your really good at pointing out your perceived problems with the church but offering no solutions. Give us something of substance.

"If there exists one starving child, one widow with out heat in her home, or anyone in need that you are aware of and have the means to do something about it and do nothing then shame on you."

This is substance.

[drtanner]

Both Moroni and Nephi saw the corruption of the latter day church. You know the church that would actually read the book. They were warning us, not the Baptists, Catholics or any other religion. What would be the point? They don't read it. The Book of Mormon is a wonderful book. It's too bad that we Mormons don't understand it or for that matter actually believe in what it teaches.

If there exists one starving child, one widow with out heat in her home, or anyone in need that you are aware of and have the means to do something about it and do nothing then shame on you. The church has at least $100,000,000,000 worth of means and saves it for the second coming, shame on them. What the church leaders are doing is contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ period.

I believe feeding one starving child is worth more in Jesus's eyes than constructing a fancy new building. Imagine just how many starving children could be fed with the money used to build just one building. Believe it or not there are ten's of thousands of starving, malnutrition-ed Mormon children living today. In a church claiming to preach the true gospel of Jesus Christ there shouldn't be a single one.

Your really good at pointing out your perceived problems with the church but offering no solutions. Give us something of substance.

"If there exists one starving child, one widow with out heat in her home, or anyone in need that you are aware of and have the means to do something about it and do nothing then shame on you."

This is substance.

Pointing out poverty and hunger is not a solution. Do you want a sounding board of people all validating your distain for how you feel the church is handling this or do you want to actually help?

[Chip]

Speaking of 'healthcare', since the Church organization has accountants adept at money management, WHY can't tithe paying members have access to an LDS based cooperative healthcare insurance program?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/more-peopl ... 1451867541

We have LDS friends in their middle years who have been members of a cost sharing program for quite some time. They have even had joint replacement and stem cell treatment covered by this form of insurance.

This would be a fantastic use of resources and really doesn't even involve much internal money. How come all the bright BYU grads aren't tackling these kinds of economic problems that are killing the middle class? What's the holdup? I think because the leaders express no affinity for these kinds of things, people make the inference that it's somehow verboten. Creative thinking is tightly constrained by our religious model.

[nightlight]

Both Moroni and Nephi saw the corruption of the latter day church. You know the church that would actually read the book. They were warning us, not the Baptists, Catholics or any other religion. What would be the point? They don't read it. The Book of Mormon is a wonderful book. It's too bad that we Mormons don't understand it or for that matter actually believe in what it teaches.

If there exists one starving child, one widow with out heat in her home, or anyone in need that you are aware of and have the means to do something about it and do nothing then shame on you. The church has at least $100,000,000,000 worth of means and saves it for the second coming, shame on them. What the church leaders are doing is contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ period.

I believe feeding one starving child is worth more in Jesus's eyes than constructing a fancy new building. Imagine just how many starving children could be fed with the money used to build just one building. Believe it or not there are ten's of thousands of starving, malnutrition-ed Mormon children living today. In a church claiming to preach the true gospel of Jesus Christ there shouldn't be a single one.

Your really good at pointing out your perceived problems with the church but offering no solutions. Give us something of substance.

"If there exists one starving child, one widow with out heat in her home, or anyone in need that you are aware of and have the means to do something about it and do nothing then shame on you."

This is substance.

Pointing out poverty and hunger is not a solution. Do you want a sounding board of people all validating your distain for how you feel the church is handling this or do you want to actually help?

My good doctor of finances.... that is the solution. It's on us.
If our leaders won't call for the Law....we should.

[drtanner]

Your really good at pointing out your perceived problems with the church but offering no solutions. Give us something of substance.

"If there exists one starving child, one widow with out heat in her home, or anyone in need that you are aware of and have the means to do something about it and do nothing then shame on you."

This is substance.

Pointing out poverty and hunger is not a solution. Do you want a sounding board of people all validating your distain for how you feel the church is handling this or do you want to actually help?

My good doctor of finances.... that is the solution. It's on us.
If our leaders won't call for the Law....we should.

Go on

[MikeMaillet]

Thanks to all who have posted comments. I appreciate the fact that a topic as polarizing as this one can be discussed in such a civil manner.

I have come to the following conclusions:

1) It is very easy for some of us (me) to point the finger at the church and say that this money should be used to feed the poor and to relieve suffering.

2) The bigger question is what do I do with MY money. Do I use my excess cash to feed the poor and relieve suffering or do I go and purchase a new lens for my camera? Did I need to buy a $20 magazine or could I have put the $20 in the Salvation Army collection bowl that is found in every mall at Christmas time? I need a car but a small Hyundai will serve my needs the same way as a Mercedez. Do I buy the cheap car and use the extra cash to help the poor or do I justify riding around in an expensive status symbol? We are faced with these types of decisions on a regular basis.

3) Our mall-building leaders will have to answer some very serious questions but those very same questions will be asked of us as well. Remember, it's not about the amount.

4) Isaiah tells me that in our day we will be preoccupied with the works of our own hands; guilty as charged. I need to change.

There is nothing preventing us from living a more austere lifestyle in exchange for helping the poor. These are the choices we are faced with every day and the choices we make will determine our status in front of God. Did we use our talents to help the poor or did we use them to make our lives more abundant by purchasing stuff that moth and rust will corrupt? This is coming to me like a slap in the face; a slap I sorely needed.

[buffalo_girl]

Anyone else wonder if already implemented changes along with "the bigger changes to come" might be based on what we are discussing here?

Twenty some years ago, then, Elder Nelson visited our Stake Conference. (At that time, my husband was not yet a baptized member, although he did attend Sacrament Meetings with me.) At the Sunday morning meeting Elder Nelson said, "There will be a schism in the Church. I cannot tell you upon what 'line' it will occur, but there will be a schism in the Church." My Catholic raised husband returned the next Sunday to ask our Bishop if he had heard Elder Nelson correctly. "Yes," he had heard correctly. Our Bishop felt that the weaker members would fall away.

I won't speculate on how that will play out. I don't know. However, at the time, my feeling was that the more successful members in the Wards & Stakes would become increasingly judgemental of those who weren't as outwardly well 'put together' as to callings and trappings indicative of the world's concept of success. My feeling was that the weak members would fall away because they felt judged, unwelcome, and 'outside' the success norm.

The LORD was born in a barn. Some good Latter-day Saints I know simply can't 'get over that fact'. Well, it's true! Even Jesus' neighbors in Nazareth tried to throw him off a cliff because they couldn't accept his humble beginnings.

If the shoe fits... it's time to soul search.

[hedgehog]

Personally would be interested in say 6 settlements the church begins across the world where members can apply and move to begin living law of consecration.

Note: it will fail but we should start learning and documenting how to live and not live the law of consecration.

Truman Madsen had some fascinating anecdotes from just such communities.

Note would recommend picking by lottery to avoid unstable populations biased in certain directions.

[John Tavner]

Anyone else wonder if already implemented changes along with "the bigger changes to come" might be based on what we are discussing here?

Twenty some years ago, then, Elder Nelson visited our Stake Conference. (At that time, my husband was not yet a baptized member, although he did attend Sacrament Meetings with me.) At the Sunday morning meeting Elder Nelson said, "There will be a schism in the Church. I cannot tell you upon what 'line' it will occur, but there will be a schism in the Church." My Catholic raised husband returned the next Sunday to ask our Bishop if he had heard Elder Nelson correctly. "Yes," he had heard correctly. Our Bishop felt that the weaker members would fall away.

I won't speculate on how that will play out. I don't know. However, at the time, my feeling was that the more successful members in the Wards & Stakes would become increasingly judgemental of those who weren't as outwardly well 'put together' as to callings and trappings indicative of the world's concept of success. My feeling was that the weak members would fall away because they felt judged, unwelcome, and 'outside' the success norm.

The LORD was born in a barn. Some good Latter-day Saints I know simply can't 'get over that fact'. Well, it's true! Even Jesus' neighbors in Nazareth tried to throw him off a cliff because they couldn't accept his humble beginnings.

If the shoe fits... it's time to soul search.

Oh I absolutely believe the changes occurring are and is a part of the schism... In my personal view it has to happen. I just don't believe the result will be what people think. Confusion will abound and members will call good evil and evil good. I was actually just reading in Mark... Jesus really, really hammers accepting not only the poor, but the dejected, and those not considered great among society. He turns on the head the idea of seeking societal acceptance. Inviting the weak to partake of the wedding feast when the well-to-do are too busy to accept. I didn't know this until recently, but children were considered pretty low value in Jewish society.... The abased shall be exalted and the exalted shall be abased. Jesus Himself, the greatest among us was a servant to all.

In fact three stories in a row in Luke, Jesus hammered the importance of each soul. 1st the story that we are lost sheep, then the story that we are a lost silver piece (both intrinsic value) THEN, he brings up the prodigal son. The son was considered dead, but when he comes back the son is clothed with the best robe, a ring and sandals put on His feet and a feast is thrown. The son thinks I will be a slave to my Father, the Father immediately says, "MY SON!" I think we will be shocked to see how much we did not "do it unto the least of these my brethren." I know I am repenting/ have repented of it. Only through HIs (Yeshua's) Grace will we overcome. We are told to become as a little child and that Christianity is foolishness to the logic of the world.

When we see our own intrinsic value and what God sees in us it allows us to overcome, but we have to believe. We believe that Christ makes us better and stronger - and He does. This is why we are all to be one in Christ. Our works will not save us, but everyone seems to think they do. We do works to show forth the righteousness that Christ has created in us. The fruits of righteousness are shown forth through our works, but do not make us righteous. All the while we are to become as a little child and serve one another.

[Silver Pie]

The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

15 What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

Isaiah 3:14-15
2 Ne 13:14-15

[Silver Pie]

Nephi said we should liken Isaiah to ourselves. When Jesus visited the Nephites, he said, "Great are the words of Isaiah."

AND now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.
2 For surely he spake as touching all things concerning my people which are of the house of Israel; therefore it must needs be that he must speak also to the Gentiles.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 23:1 - 2)

[Silver Pie]

I fear it will not be many years before we are torn in pieces and there are none of us left, most especially those of us who claim to believe the Book of Mormon and who claim Joseph as the founder of our religion:

And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?

23 Know ye not that ye are in the hands of God? Know ye not that he hath all power, and at his great command the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll?

24 Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him, lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver.

(Book of Mormon | Mormon 5:22 - 24)

Why can't we repent? Why are we so hardened in our minds and hearts that we think it is impossible for us to be led astray? Why do we have stiff necks and high heads? Why are we fine and dandy with our Church grinding on the faces of the poor, demanding money from them that they cannot afford to give? Surely, the blood of those who died of starvation or bad water, who could have been spared had the Church TM opened its purse to help, surely that blood cries unto God for vengeance. And surely that God who is kind and just and merciful will hear and will finally take measures to fix the broken scales.

[Silver Pie]

Our own scriptures roundly and soundly condemn us over and over again.

13 And the blood of that great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall turn upon their own heads; for they shall war among themselves, and the sword of their own hands shall fall upon their own heads, and they shall be drunken with their own blood.

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 22:13)

----------------
16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 1:16)

[hedgehog]

We know how much all full time GA’s get paid - 10k a month or 120k annually.

That was in January 2014 so they’ve probably had a pay rise since then:

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6 ... -01-02.pdf.

I think this is fine. In fact, I wish we had more paid clergy.

I think also giving GAs a stipend frees them up from having to worry about finances, and it should eliminate and desire to get rich, since they get a guaranteed income. At least it makes sense to me in theory. Not sure it's the only or the best option.

You know how in movies the Catholics always wander into a church anytime of the day and there is a priest there to counsel with? Sometimes I wish we had someone always there to just stop in and counsel with and a chapel to pray in. Vs the current system of 15 minute blocks on Wednesday at 8pm when everyone especially the Bishop is exhausted.. I get that Money opens so many cans of worms but I think under a higher law there will be something more available. If Bishops were mostly retired with grown children there would be more opportunities like this.

Oh and the church does do things like this in Africa. When a member shows promise re church leadership, they are often given a fake church job to pay the bills and get them rising. I see the reasoning, but in my experience the price of shortcuts always comes due.

As someone who has lived for years at just under 2k and month and now lives on nearly 20k a month, I gotta tell you 120k a year on the wasatch front is not that much. Just passed a billboard for truckers starting making 75k+ a year in brigham city. Arbys pays 12-15+$ an hour in the area on day one. Cheap nowhere Apartment rent is commonly $800-1400 a month right now. I am sure downtown salt lake is much worse. 120k is a used car and modest home in salt lake. Blame all the californians and childless two income households.

[hedgehog]

Maybe this whole hubbub will result in a better definition or explanation of 10% of what.

That would be nice. Doubtful it will happen, but nice nonetheless

My scriptural understanding has always been rooted in a 10%of increase. Each persons money situation is different,

I get the appeal to get in the weeds defining it, but just look at how that has worked out with law of chastity and Word of Wisdom or the IRS tax code. At least when I was a missionary the mission president set the rules for things like what music etc was ok to listen to. It is a can of worms, and seems to trigger our pharisee side where we start hunting down loopholes and pressuring those who might be following the spirit of the law but not the letter.

"For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward" (D&C 58:26)

We are here to become spiritual adults, or at the least appreciate the difficulty..

[hedgehog]

One last .$ 02.

As a missionary one Christmas we were constantly being given food and gifts. I recognized that people weren't giving to me but to the Lord, so it felt wrong to refuse. Also this isn't prison, gifts aren't traps or leverage. Anyway, the pies and such accumulated day after day after day while we were occupied out serving until dark. By new years it was pretty insane. A stake missionary and family who had been by and seen it, snuck in and cleaned it for us while we were out.

I'm sure there starving orphans with cleft pallettes everywhere dying for old pecan pie, Feel free to judge me harshly.


I like that we have had. Whole slew of church leaders who did not obsess about said nest egg and blow it all on "legacy" and pet projects. Could any of us here have focused on spiritual labors and ignored so much money? From my perspective it seems like a good thing. I dislike all these answered here pretend g the church doesn't already feed and cover bills for loads of people who often are at best church adjacent and are unlikely to ever return the investment monetarily. Myself am an exception, I grew up on Deseret orange drink and other less traumatizing foods., have definitely paid it back and forward. This church literally pulled me out of the gutter and priesthood leaders protected me from the world. Every good thing in my life is always within one step of this church so maybe I get defensive when people hold it to a standard they themselves don't even aspire to let alone live all in the pursuit of degrading one of the only good things we have in this world.