Poll: Effect of $100B Church Fund

[LDS Watchman]

We know how much all full time GA’s get paid - 10k a month or 120k annually.

That was in January 2014 so they’ve probably had a pay rise since then:

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6 ... -01-02.pdf.

I think this is fine. In fact, I wish we had more paid clergy.

I think also giving GAs a stipend frees them up from having to worry about finances, and it should eliminate and desire to get rich, since they get a guaranteed income. At least it makes sense to me in theory. Not sure it's the only or the best option.

I agree, I don't see the stipend as a big deal. The Brethren are also running a huge corporation in addition to their spiritual work.

Now, one could argue that the Church should never have become a huge corporation, but in the system we have, I believe that a modest salary is reasonable.

Having said that, the salaries of the brethren and all church finances should be fully disclosed to the membership instead of hidden.

The books used to be open, but have been closed since 1959, I believe. That is totally wrong.

It is also wrong that missionaries and members are allowed to bash other faiths for having paid clergy, and claiming that we do not, when in fact our apostles, seventies, and mission presidents are receiving compensation from the Church.

I think our bishops and stake presidents should get a little money, too. The D&C says that Bishops can have some of the tithe money and this used to happen. Now we expect bishops to work full time, and then do their calling as a second full time job. This is wrong. This is also why Bishops can't last more than 5 years before they are completely burned out, unless they happen to own their own business or are retired and don't have to work 40-50 hours a week to make ends meet.

[Trucker]

We know how much all full time GA’s get paid - 10k a month or 120k annually.

That was in January 2014 so they’ve probably had a pay rise since then:

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6 ... -01-02.pdf.

I think this is fine. In fact, I wish we had more paid clergy.

I think also giving GAs a stipend frees them up from having to worry about finances, and it should eliminate and desire to get rich, since they get a guaranteed income. At least it makes sense to me in theory. Not sure it's the only or the best option.

I agree, I don't see the stipend as a big deal. The Brethren are also running a huge corporation in addition to their spiritual work.

Now, one could argue that the Church should never have become a huge corporation, but in the system we have, I believe that a modest salary is reasonable.

Having said that, the salaries of the brethren and all church finances should be fully disclosed to the membership instead of hidden.

The books used to be open, but have been closed since 1959, I believe. That is totally wrong.

It is also wrong that missionaries and members are allowed to bash other faiths for having paid clergy, and claiming that we do not, when in fact our apostles, seventies, and mission presidents are receiving compensation from the Church.

I think our bishops and stake presidents should get a little money, too. The D&C says that Bishops can have some of the tithe money and this used to happen. Now we expect bishops to work full time, and then do their calling as a second full time job. This is wrong. This is also why Bishops can't last more than 5 years before they are completely burned out, unless they happen to own their own business or are retired and don't have to work 40-50 hours a week to make ends meet.

Yes I agree be open with it. I think Bishops and Stake Presidents should get training by the church, and maybe have expenses reimbursed.

[Mindfields]

Then why do both King Benjamin and Alma both make it clear that they don't receive any financial support from the members for their duties (King and Religious duties)? And in fact work to support their own needs.

[captainfearnot]

The D&C says that Bishops can have some of the tithe money and this used to happen. Now we expect bishops to work full time, and then do their calling as a second full time job.

Patriarchs charged fees for blessings until 1902, and continued to accept tips until 1943.

A $2 fee for a blessing in 1900 would be like $60 today.

[Robin Hood]

We know how much all full time GA’s get paid - 10k a month or 120k annually.

That was in January 2014 so they’ve probably had a pay rise since then:

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/6 ... -01-02.pdf.

I think this is fine. In fact, I wish we had more paid clergy.

I think also giving GAs a stipend frees them up from having to worry about finances, and it should eliminate and desire to get rich, since they get a guaranteed income. At least it makes sense to me in theory. Not sure it's the only or the best option.

I agree, I don't see the stipend as a big deal. The Brethren are also running a huge corporation in addition to their spiritual work.

Now, one could argue that the Church should never have become a huge corporation, but in the system we have, I believe that a modest salary is reasonable.

Having said that, the salaries of the brethren and all church finances should be fully disclosed to the membership instead of hidden.

The books used to be open, but have been closed since 1959, I believe. That is totally wrong.

It is also wrong that missionaries and members are allowed to bash other faiths for having paid clergy, and claiming that we do not, when in fact our apostles, seventies, and mission presidents are receiving compensation from the Church.

I think our bishops and stake presidents should get a little money, too. The D&C says that Bishops can have some of the tithe money and this used to happen. Now we expect bishops to work full time, and then do their calling as a second full time job. This is wrong. This is also why Bishops can't last more than 5 years before they are completely burned out, unless they happen to own their own business or are retired and don't have to work 40-50 hours a week to make ends meet.

Bishop's were permitted to keep 10% of the tithing at one time in order to be compensated for their time. This was because administering tithing was a big job, especially as many Saints paid their tithes in kind.

Later it was reduced to 8%, and then at some point it was done away with.

I would have no problem with bishops receiving a payment for administrative work today, so long as it was not for ministering/preaching etc. That's when it become priestcraft.
I think it's more difficult to justify an allowance for stake presidents, as such a position doesn't appear to be scriptural.

[hedgehog]

Also wanted to posit a thought, what if some of these rumors of coming church changes are true and this money stuff causes Nelson to stand down or interferes with him pushing big changes?

[David13]

Also wanted to posit a thought, what if some of these rumors of coming church changes are true and this money stuff causes Nelson to stand down or interferes with him pushing big changes?

Unlikely.
dc

[David13]

Breaking News: The LDS Church saves more than it spends.
dc

[pho·to·syn·the·sis]

This announcement has hurt my sharing the gospel. I have been talking about the gospel with two guys from work. One has asked about tithing, and I tried to explain to him how and what it is used for, based on what I know/ knew. He is skeptical of all religions with money. However, both of them saw this on the news a couple of days ago, and when we went out to lunch, this was most certainly brought up. They both asked if it was legit and if the Church really had 100 Billion. I responded they probably do. After that, they don't seem too interested in the Church any longer. Not that they were real interested before, but they would at least talk about it. Now I just get eye rolls and sarcasm. Even if nothing illegal was done; it was not good optics for the Church.

[Art Vandelay]

Egyptians probably thought the same thing when Joseph was hoarding all that food for 7 years. I'm sure some of those who were around Solomon with his fancy Temple thought similar things. Instead of spending money on expensive oils those funds could've been given to the poor. The applications differ but the story is the same. There will always be people who criticize what the followers of Christ do. I'd just ignore them if you struggle trying to defend what the church does or doesn't do. The sifting goes on....

[JK4Woods]

Just ruminating about mission costs.
Maybe the church should completely fund missions for missionaries..??
I mean... why not? relieve missionary parents of the monthly burden (ignore the fact of the many blessings they receive because of faithfulness and sacrifice).

Let's see what that would take:
Average size of a mission is 180 missionaries. At $500/ month each = $90,000/month.
The mission president gets approx $10,000 month, which is used for living expenses and putting kids into the appropriate type schools, etc.
The mission expenses for office, housing, apartments, cars and whatnot would run about another $45,000/month.
So a typical mission needs $145,000/ month X 12 months = $1,740,000 per year.

There are approx 400 missions worldwide right now (more to come in dozen sized blocks when India and China are fully opened up).

So using the budget above, which is probably low, it would cost $696,000,000 per year for the church to fully fund all 400 current missions.

Do you see it? $696 million to operate all 400 missions for one year.. !!

That $100 billion has been gained over decades as surplus funds have been accumulated.
That amount would be used up in short order if the quantity of missions doubled to 800.

My early beef was the church putting the money into the stock market. Seemed stupid to me to be investing in Babylon, but then what are the alternatives?
I mean where do you store excess capital like that? in a bank account? (FDIC only insures to $250,000 per depositor). Banks are not a safe place to put that kind of capital.... Buy gold? ... put it in the church archives in granite mountain..?? Then you'd have documented rumors of the church hording gold and wealth under a mountain... that'd be detrimental to the church's reputation.

Looking at the big picture, $100 billion is a nice nest egg, but on a per capita basis is only a reserve fund of $6,600 for each member divided among the 15 million church members. A family of four would be $26,600.... not even enough to buy a new car off the lot. (especially not enough for the new Jeep Gladiator pickup... which I secretly covet...

So everyone having a cow about the church's reserve fund, should just settle down and rejoice in holiday celebration for the Birth of Jesus Christ and not worry about how senior leadership is running the church.

[Mindfields]

I mean where do you store excess capital like that?

Easy, use it to relieve the suffering of your fellow beings.

[buffalo_girl]

Someone brought attention to the Matthew 17 passage earlier. I love that story!

Is that where the expression, "Go fish." originated? The Lord knows what is needful.

For some reason not yet fully understood, our life's course has not produced an 'abundance of riches'. Perhaps I should rather say, not an 'abundance of outwardly visible wealth'. Our parents were frugal and did pass onto us an inheritance we invested in land capable of earning a modest income from pasture rental. We are not aggressive in our ability to 'create wealth', but we work hard and are free of debt.

There are two lessons I've learned over the decades: "Money is an illusion." and "Money is like water; if you don't contain it, it will disappear."

I don't have the expertise to judge what a $100-billion nest egg can or cannot do or how it should or should not be invested..

I do know that some of the money my husband inherited in stocks and bonds disappeared in the post-911 'panic'.

I invested what money I inherited in tools, seed stock (sheep, horses), and equipment necessary to maintain our independence as well & as long as we can. At the same time, we could conceivably lose everything due to one catastrophe or another in our crazy telestial world. I do know that money can be a form of slavery, and it can also disappear through no fault of your own - even when you think you have it secured.

What will one billion dollars look like if all the 'unbacked currency' being cranked out by the Federal Reserve for running wars - even wars in space - is declared worthless to pay the national debt?

Congress Has Released Its $738 Billion Defense Budget.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... nside.html

Take a look at the photographs linked below illustrating hyperinflation in Germany after losing the First World War.

https://mashable.com/2016/07/27/german-hyperinflation/

In 1914, the exchange rate of the German mark to the American dollar was about 4.2 to one. Nine years later, it was 4.2 trillion to one.

The price of a loaf of bread went from 250 marks in January 1923 to 200 trillion in November — when Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party attempted the Beer Hall Putsch, a failed government takeover.

We will continue being full tithe payers either in coin or in kind.

[LDS Physician]

I've been reading the past comments again in case I had missed someone's opinion and viewpoint. A few comments ago someone brought up the parable of the talents. Why do we assume that the "talent" is monetary?

I believe it can be applied in many ways: money, actual talents (gifts, abilities), circumstances of one's birth, etc.

[LDS Physician]

I mean where do you store excess capital like that?

Easy, use it to relieve the suffering of your fellow beings.

"The fact that the Church of Jesus Christ has been able to fund the operation of meetinghouses, temples, educational institutions and missionary work—while also building up reservoirs of resources for the difficult days that eventually come—is a model that should be celebrated and emulated by governments and other institutions around the world,"

quote on church website.

[Mindfields]

Mormon 8:37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted. 

[drtanner]

Mormon 8:37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted. 

Read this in context. It is very clear who this scripture is talking about And spoiler alert it is not the current Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

[Aprhys]

Mormon 8:37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted. 

Read this in context. It is very clear who this scripture is talking about And spoiler alert it is not the current Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye aashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
Who is the "holy church of God?" Is it not the LDS church? These scriptures were absolutely written for and about us.

[drtanner]

Mormon 8:37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted. 

Read this in context. It is very clear who this scripture is talking about And spoiler alert it is not the current Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye aashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
Who is the "holy church of God?" Is it not the LDS church? These scriptures were absolutely written for and about us.

Pure sciolism. Read the entire chapter a few times and maybe it will sink in. Here are a few hints:

#1 The members are not “ashamed” to take upon them the name
Of Christ. Ask yourself what motive those attending the temple have? And you want to claim they are ashamed of Christ? Look around a congregation the next time the sacrament is being passed and ask yourself if those in tears or anguish are ashamed to take upon themselves the name of Christ.


28 Yea, it (what is “it” talking about? The Book of Mormon aka the time period when it enters the scene) shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.
29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches (Plural, these are the churches That the Lord told Joseph were near to him with their lips but their hearts far from them) built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

Of course you won’t believe any of this because your mind is made up and your resentment towards the leaders fixed.

However if you do want read about who the church really is and what it’s mission is between now and when the savior comes please read this:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

From Elder Christofferson:

In that moment, the Holy Spirit affirmed two things to me. First, the work of ministering to temporal needs is vital and must continue. The second was unexpected, yet powerful and clear. It was this: beyond selfless service, it is supremely important to prepare the world for the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

While I was at the conference in Buenos Aires that I mentioned earlier, the Spirit made clear to me that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is uniquely empowered and commissioned to accomplish the necessary preparations for the Lord’s Second Coming; indeed, it was restored for that purpose. Can you find anywhere else a people who embrace the present era as the prophesied “dispensation of the fulness of times,” in which God has purposed to “gather together in one all things in Christ”?8 If you don’t find here a community intent on accomplishing what needs to be accomplished for both the living and the dead to prepare for that day, if you don’t find here an organization willing to commit vast amounts of time and funds to the gathering and preparation of a covenant people ready to receive the Lord, you won’t find it anywhere.

What can we do to prepare now for that day? We can prepare ourselves as a people; we can gather the Lord’s covenant people; and we can help redeem the promise of salvation “made to the fathers,” our ancestors.10 All of this must occur in some substantial measure before the Lord comes again.
First, and crucial for the Lord’s return, is the presence on the earth of a people prepared to receive Him at His coming. He has stated that those who remain upon the earth in that day, “from the least [to] the greatest, … shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, and shall see eye to eye, and shall lift up their voice, and with the voice together sing this new song, saying: The Lord hath brought again Zion. … The Lord hath gathered all things in one. The Lord hath brought down Zion from above. The Lord hath brought up Zion from beneath.”11

President Nelson has repeatedly emphasized that the “gathering [of Israel] is the most important thing taking place on earth today. Nothing else compares in magnitude, nothing else compares in importance, nothing else compares in majesty. And if you choose to, … you can be a big part of it.”

Also vital to the preparation for the Second Coming is the great redemptive effort on behalf of our ancestors. The Lord promised to send Elijah the prophet before the Second Coming, “the great and dreadful day of the Lord,”31 to “reveal … the Priesthood” and “plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers.”32 Elijah did come as promised. The date was April 3, 1836; the place was the Kirtland Temple. In that place and in that moment, he did indeed confer the promised priesthood, the keys for the redemption of the dead and the union of husbands, wives, and families across all generations of time and throughout all eternity.33 Without this, the purpose of creation would be frustrated, and in that sense, the earth would be cursed or “utterly wasted.”34

While we strive to be diligent in building up Zion, including our part in the gathering of the Lord’s elect and the redemption of the dead, we should pause to remember that it is the Lord’s work and He is doing it. He is the Lord of the vineyard, and we are His servants. He bids us labor in the vineyard with our might this “last time,” and He labors with us.35 It would probably be more accurate to say He permits us to labor with Him. As Paul said, “I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.”36 It is He who is hastening His work in its time.37 Employing our admittedly imperfect efforts—our “small means”—the Lord brings about great things.38

This great and last dispensation is building steadily to its climax—Zion on earth being joined with Zion from above at the Savior’s glorious return. The Church of Jesus Christ is commissioned to prepare—and is preparing—the world for that day. And so, this Easter, let us truly celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and all that it portends: His return to reign for a thousand years of peace, a righteous judgment and perfect justice for all, the immortality of all who ever lived upon this earth, and the promise of eternal life. Christ’s Resurrection is the ultimate assurance that all will be put right. Let us be about building up Zion to hasten that day. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[LDS Watchman]

Mormon 8:37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted. 

Read this in context. It is very clear who this scripture is talking about And spoiler alert it is not the current Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye aashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
Who is the "holy church of God?" Is it not the LDS church? These scriptures were absolutely written for and about us.

Pure sciolism. Read the entire chapter a few times and maybe it will sink in. Here are a few hints:

#1 The members are not “ashamed” to take upon them the name
Of Christ. Ask yourself what motive those attending the temple have? And you want to claim they are ashamed of Christ? Look around a congregation the next time the sacrament is being passed and ask yourself if those in tears or anguish are ashamed to take upon themselves the name of Christ.


28 Yea, it (what is “it” talking about? The Book of Mormon aka the time period when it enters the scene) shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.
29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches (Plural, these are the churches That the Lord told Joseph were near to him with their lips but their hearts far from them) built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

Of course you won’t believe any of this because your mind is made up and your resentment towards the leaders fixed.

However if you do want read about who the church really is and what it’s mission is between now and when the savior comes please read this:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

From Elder Christofferson:

In that moment, the Holy Spirit affirmed two things to me. First, the work of ministering to temporal needs is vital and must continue. The second was unexpected, yet powerful and clear. It was this: beyond selfless service, it is supremely important to prepare the world for the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

While I was at the conference in Buenos Aires that I mentioned earlier, the Spirit made clear to me that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is uniquely empowered and commissioned to accomplish the necessary preparations for the Lord’s Second Coming; indeed, it was restored for that purpose. Can you find anywhere else a people who embrace the present era as the prophesied “dispensation of the fulness of times,” in which God has purposed to “gather together in one all things in Christ”?8 If you don’t find here a community intent on accomplishing what needs to be accomplished for both the living and the dead to prepare for that day, if you don’t find here an organization willing to commit vast amounts of time and funds to the gathering and preparation of a covenant people ready to receive the Lord, you won’t find it anywhere.

What can we do to prepare now for that day? We can prepare ourselves as a people; we can gather the Lord’s covenant people; and we can help redeem the promise of salvation “made to the fathers,” our ancestors.10 All of this must occur in some substantial measure before the Lord comes again.
First, and crucial for the Lord’s return, is the presence on the earth of a people prepared to receive Him at His coming. He has stated that those who remain upon the earth in that day, “from the least [to] the greatest, … shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, and shall see eye to eye, and shall lift up their voice, and with the voice together sing this new song, saying: The Lord hath brought again Zion. … The Lord hath gathered all things in one. The Lord hath brought down Zion from above. The Lord hath brought up Zion from beneath.”11

President Nelson has repeatedly emphasized that the “gathering [of Israel] is the most important thing taking place on earth today. Nothing else compares in magnitude, nothing else compares in importance, nothing else compares in majesty. And if you choose to, … you can be a big part of it.”

Also vital to the preparation for the Second Coming is the great redemptive effort on behalf of our ancestors. The Lord promised to send Elijah the prophet before the Second Coming, “the great and dreadful day of the Lord,”31 to “reveal … the Priesthood” and “plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers.”32 Elijah did come as promised. The date was April 3, 1836; the place was the Kirtland Temple. In that place and in that moment, he did indeed confer the promised priesthood, the keys for the redemption of the dead and the union of husbands, wives, and families across all generations of time and throughout all eternity.33 Without this, the purpose of creation would be frustrated, and in that sense, the earth would be cursed or “utterly wasted.”34

While we strive to be diligent in building up Zion, including our part in the gathering of the Lord’s elect and the redemption of the dead, we should pause to remember that it is the Lord’s work and He is doing it. He is the Lord of the vineyard, and we are His servants. He bids us labor in the vineyard with our might this “last time,” and He labors with us.35 It would probably be more accurate to say He permits us to labor with Him. As Paul said, “I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.”36 It is He who is hastening His work in its time.37 Employing our admittedly imperfect efforts—our “small means”—the Lord brings about great things.38

This great and last dispensation is building steadily to its climax—Zion on earth being joined with Zion from above at the Savior’s glorious return. The Church of Jesus Christ is commissioned to prepare—and is preparing—the world for that day. And so, this Easter, let us truly celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and all that it portends: His return to reign for a thousand years of peace, a righteous judgment and perfect justice for all, the immortality of all who ever lived upon this earth, and the promise of eternal life. Christ’s Resurrection is the ultimate assurance that all will be put right. Let us be about building up Zion to hasten that day. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Elder L. Tom Perry would disagree with your take that Moroni isn't talking about the members of the Church polluting the Holy church of God.

The following is a quote from his October 1992 conference address:

"It is from the depths of his heart that Moroni cries out to THOSE WHO WILL EVENTUALLY RECEIVE THE RECORD. He wants to spare those who read his account the heartache and misery which comes from disobedience.

He writes first to the MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH and then to those who have not embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Moroni’s last words to the MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:

“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

“Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

“For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?” (Morm. 8:34–38.)

I guess one of the greatest mysteries of mortality is why mankind fails to learn from history. Why do those who profess to be true followers of Christ so often become victims of the enticements of the world?"

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... ous-things

Ezra Taft Benson also stated that these verses refer to the Church.

[drtanner]

Read this in context. It is very clear who this scripture is talking about And spoiler alert it is not the current Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye aashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
Who is the "holy church of God?" Is it not the LDS church? These scriptures were absolutely written for and about us.

Pure sciolism. Read the entire chapter a few times and maybe it will sink in. Here are a few hints:

#1 The members are not “ashamed” to take upon them the name
Of Christ. Ask yourself what motive those attending the temple have? And you want to claim they are ashamed of Christ? Look around a congregation the next time the sacrament is being passed and ask yourself if those in tears or anguish are ashamed to take upon themselves the name of Christ.


28 Yea, it (what is “it” talking about? The Book of Mormon aka the time period when it enters the scene) shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.
29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches (Plural, these are the churches That the Lord told Joseph were near to him with their lips but their hearts far from them) built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

Of course you won’t believe any of this because your mind is made up and your resentment towards the leaders fixed.

However if you do want read about who the church really is and what it’s mission is between now and when the savior comes please read this:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

From Elder Christofferson:

In that moment, the Holy Spirit affirmed two things to me. First, the work of ministering to temporal needs is vital and must continue. The second was unexpected, yet powerful and clear. It was this: beyond selfless service, it is supremely important to prepare the world for the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

While I was at the conference in Buenos Aires that I mentioned earlier, the Spirit made clear to me that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is uniquely empowered and commissioned to accomplish the necessary preparations for the Lord’s Second Coming; indeed, it was restored for that purpose. Can you find anywhere else a people who embrace the present era as the prophesied “dispensation of the fulness of times,” in which God has purposed to “gather together in one all things in Christ”?8 If you don’t find here a community intent on accomplishing what needs to be accomplished for both the living and the dead to prepare for that day, if you don’t find here an organization willing to commit vast amounts of time and funds to the gathering and preparation of a covenant people ready to receive the Lord, you won’t find it anywhere.

What can we do to prepare now for that day? We can prepare ourselves as a people; we can gather the Lord’s covenant people; and we can help redeem the promise of salvation “made to the fathers,” our ancestors.10 All of this must occur in some substantial measure before the Lord comes again.
First, and crucial for the Lord’s return, is the presence on the earth of a people prepared to receive Him at His coming. He has stated that those who remain upon the earth in that day, “from the least [to] the greatest, … shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, and shall see eye to eye, and shall lift up their voice, and with the voice together sing this new song, saying: The Lord hath brought again Zion. … The Lord hath gathered all things in one. The Lord hath brought down Zion from above. The Lord hath brought up Zion from beneath.”11

President Nelson has repeatedly emphasized that the “gathering [of Israel] is the most important thing taking place on earth today. Nothing else compares in magnitude, nothing else compares in importance, nothing else compares in majesty. And if you choose to, … you can be a big part of it.”

Also vital to the preparation for the Second Coming is the great redemptive effort on behalf of our ancestors. The Lord promised to send Elijah the prophet before the Second Coming, “the great and dreadful day of the Lord,”31 to “reveal … the Priesthood” and “plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers.”32 Elijah did come as promised. The date was April 3, 1836; the place was the Kirtland Temple. In that place and in that moment, he did indeed confer the promised priesthood, the keys for the redemption of the dead and the union of husbands, wives, and families across all generations of time and throughout all eternity.33 Without this, the purpose of creation would be frustrated, and in that sense, the earth would be cursed or “utterly wasted.”34

While we strive to be diligent in building up Zion, including our part in the gathering of the Lord’s elect and the redemption of the dead, we should pause to remember that it is the Lord’s work and He is doing it. He is the Lord of the vineyard, and we are His servants. He bids us labor in the vineyard with our might this “last time,” and He labors with us.35 It would probably be more accurate to say He permits us to labor with Him. As Paul said, “I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.”36 It is He who is hastening His work in its time.37 Employing our admittedly imperfect efforts—our “small means”—the Lord brings about great things.38

This great and last dispensation is building steadily to its climax—Zion on earth being joined with Zion from above at the Savior’s glorious return. The Church of Jesus Christ is commissioned to prepare—and is preparing—the world for that day. And so, this Easter, let us truly celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and all that it portends: His return to reign for a thousand years of peace, a righteous judgment and perfect justice for all, the immortality of all who ever lived upon this earth, and the promise of eternal life. Christ’s Resurrection is the ultimate assurance that all will be put right. Let us be about building up Zion to hasten that day. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Elder L. Tom Perry would disagree with your take that Moroni isn't talking about the members of the Church polluting the Holy church of God.

The following is a quote from his October 1992 conference address:

"It is from the depths of his heart that Moroni cries out to THOSE WHO WILL EVENTUALLY RECEIVE THE RECORD. He wants to spare those who read his account the heartache and misery which comes from disobedience.

He writes first to the MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH and then to those who have not embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:

“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

“Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

“For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?” (Morm. 8:34–38.)

I guess one of the greatest mysteries of mortality is why mankind fails to learn from history. Why do those who profess to be true followers of Christ so often become victims of the enticements of the world?"

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... ous-things

Ezra Taft Benson also stated that these verses refer to the Church.

You do realize that Both Elder Perry and President Bensen were not referring to themselves as those who have corrupted the holy church of God right?

[LDS Watchman]

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye aashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
Who is the "holy church of God?" Is it not the LDS church? These scriptures were absolutely written for and about us.

Pure sciolism. Read the entire chapter a few times and maybe it will sink in. Here are a few hints:

#1 The members are not “ashamed” to take upon them the name
Of Christ. Ask yourself what motive those attending the temple have? And you want to claim they are ashamed of Christ? Look around a congregation the next time the sacrament is being passed and ask yourself if those in tears or anguish are ashamed to take upon themselves the name of Christ.


28 Yea, it (what is “it” talking about? The Book of Mormon aka the time period when it enters the scene) shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.
29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches (Plural, these are the churches That the Lord told Joseph were near to him with their lips but their hearts far from them) built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

Of course you won’t believe any of this because your mind is made up and your resentment towards the leaders fixed.

However if you do want read about who the church really is and what it’s mission is between now and when the savior comes please read this:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

From Elder Christofferson:

In that moment, the Holy Spirit affirmed two things to me. First, the work of ministering to temporal needs is vital and must continue. The second was unexpected, yet powerful and clear. It was this: beyond selfless service, it is supremely important to prepare the world for the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

While I was at the conference in Buenos Aires that I mentioned earlier, the Spirit made clear to me that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is uniquely empowered and commissioned to accomplish the necessary preparations for the Lord’s Second Coming; indeed, it was restored for that purpose. Can you find anywhere else a people who embrace the present era as the prophesied “dispensation of the fulness of times,” in which God has purposed to “gather together in one all things in Christ”?8 If you don’t find here a community intent on accomplishing what needs to be accomplished for both the living and the dead to prepare for that day, if you don’t find here an organization willing to commit vast amounts of time and funds to the gathering and preparation of a covenant people ready to receive the Lord, you won’t find it anywhere.

What can we do to prepare now for that day? We can prepare ourselves as a people; we can gather the Lord’s covenant people; and we can help redeem the promise of salvation “made to the fathers,” our ancestors.10 All of this must occur in some substantial measure before the Lord comes again.
First, and crucial for the Lord’s return, is the presence on the earth of a people prepared to receive Him at His coming. He has stated that those who remain upon the earth in that day, “from the least [to] the greatest, … shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, and shall see eye to eye, and shall lift up their voice, and with the voice together sing this new song, saying: The Lord hath brought again Zion. … The Lord hath gathered all things in one. The Lord hath brought down Zion from above. The Lord hath brought up Zion from beneath.”11

President Nelson has repeatedly emphasized that the “gathering [of Israel] is the most important thing taking place on earth today. Nothing else compares in magnitude, nothing else compares in importance, nothing else compares in majesty. And if you choose to, … you can be a big part of it.”

Also vital to the preparation for the Second Coming is the great redemptive effort on behalf of our ancestors. The Lord promised to send Elijah the prophet before the Second Coming, “the great and dreadful day of the Lord,”31 to “reveal … the Priesthood” and “plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers.”32 Elijah did come as promised. The date was April 3, 1836; the place was the Kirtland Temple. In that place and in that moment, he did indeed confer the promised priesthood, the keys for the redemption of the dead and the union of husbands, wives, and families across all generations of time and throughout all eternity.33 Without this, the purpose of creation would be frustrated, and in that sense, the earth would be cursed or “utterly wasted.”34

While we strive to be diligent in building up Zion, including our part in the gathering of the Lord’s elect and the redemption of the dead, we should pause to remember that it is the Lord’s work and He is doing it. He is the Lord of the vineyard, and we are His servants. He bids us labor in the vineyard with our might this “last time,” and He labors with us.35 It would probably be more accurate to say He permits us to labor with Him. As Paul said, “I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.”36 It is He who is hastening His work in its time.37 Employing our admittedly imperfect efforts—our “small means”—the Lord brings about great things.38

This great and last dispensation is building steadily to its climax—Zion on earth being joined with Zion from above at the Savior’s glorious return. The Church of Jesus Christ is commissioned to prepare—and is preparing—the world for that day. And so, this Easter, let us truly celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and all that it portends: His return to reign for a thousand years of peace, a righteous judgment and perfect justice for all, the immortality of all who ever lived upon this earth, and the promise of eternal life. Christ’s Resurrection is the ultimate assurance that all will be put right. Let us be about building up Zion to hasten that day. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Elder L. Tom Perry would disagree with your take that Moroni isn't talking about the members of the Church polluting the Holy church of God.

The following is a quote from his October 1992 conference address:

"It is from the depths of his heart that Moroni cries out to THOSE WHO WILL EVENTUALLY RECEIVE THE RECORD. He wants to spare those who read his account the heartache and misery which comes from disobedience.

He writes first to the MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH and then to those who have not embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:

“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

“Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were presenCHURCHYesyet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

“For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?” (Morm. 8:34–38.)

I guess one of the greatest mysteries of mortality is why mankind fails to learn from history. Why do those who profess to be true followers of Christ so often become victims of the enticements of the world?"

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... ous-things

Ezra Taft Benson also stated that these verses refer to the Church.

You do realize that Both Elder Perry and President Bensen were not referring to themselves as those who have corrupted the holy church of God right?

Yes, of course I realize that. The point remains that those verses are in deed talking about our Church. The Holy Church of God is OUR church, not apostate Christianity.

If you read the rest of Elder Perry's talk, he talks about the love of money and worldly possessions, as well as the neglect of the poor by so many Church members.

This talk was given 26 years ago. There were a lot of problems in the Church then, but it has gotten so much worse.

Today the Church has been shown to hide its money and spend more on one lavish mall than it does on the poor and the needy. That's not even counting all of the money spent on other worldly buildings built by the Church.

You really don't see a parallel here to Moroni's words?

You need to take a long hard look at yourself and consider the possibility that you are in denial.

The Church is absolutely corrupt from top to bottom.

[drtanner]

Pure sciolism. Read the entire chapter a few times and maybe it will sink in. Here are a few hints:

#1 The members are not “ashamed” to take upon them the name
Of Christ. Ask yourself what motive those attending the temple have? And you want to claim they are ashamed of Christ? Look around a congregation the next time the sacrament is being passed and ask yourself if those in tears or anguish are ashamed to take upon themselves the name of Christ.


28 Yea, it (what is “it” talking about? The Book of Mormon aka the time period when it enters the scene) shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.
29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches (Plural, these are the churches That the Lord told Joseph were near to him with their lips but their hearts far from them) built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

Of course you won’t believe any of this because your mind is made up and your resentment towards the leaders fixed.

However if you do want read about who the church really is and what it’s mission is between now and when the savior comes please read this:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

From Elder Christofferson:

Elder L. Tom Perry would disagree with your take that Moroni isn't talking about the members of the Church polluting the Holy church of God.

The following is a quote from his October 1992 conference address:

"It is from the depths of his heart that Moroni cries out to THOSE WHO WILL EVENTUALLY RECEIVE THE RECORD. He wants to spare those who read his account the heartache and misery which comes from disobedience.

He writes first to the MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH and then to those who have not embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:

“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

“Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were presenCHURCHYesyet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

“For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?” (Morm. 8:34–38.)

I guess one of the greatest mysteries of mortality is why mankind fails to learn from history. Why do those who profess to be true followers of Christ so often become victims of the enticements of the world?"

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... ous-things

Ezra Taft Benson also stated that these verses refer to the Church.

You do realize that Both Elder Perry and President Bensen were not referring to themselves as those who have corrupted the holy church of God right?

Yes, of course I realize that. The point remains that those verses are in deed talking about our Church. The Holy Church of God is OUR church, not apostate Christianity.

If you read the rest of Elder Perry's talk, he talks about the love of money and worldly possessions, as well as the neglect of the poor by so many Church members.

This talk was given 26 years ago. There were a lot of problems in the Church then, but it has gotten so much worse.

Today the Church has been shown to hide its money and spend more on one lavish mall than it does on the poor and the needy. That's not even counting all of the money spent on other worldly buildings built by the Church.

You really don't see a parallel here to Moroni's words?

You need to take a long hard look at yourself and consider the possibility that you are in denial.

The Church is absolutely corrupt from top to bottom.

Read his talk, he is not talking about the church collectively and it’s leadership he is talking about the church individually. And Mormon is not talking about The church collectively either.

Interesting that you would pick words from one prophet you feel like fits your narrative but disregard all of the other overwhelming instruction given from the pulpit (including Elder Perry) about what the church will accomplish before the return of the Lord.

If you really think Elder Perry felt that the leadership was corrupt that just shows more ignorance.

[LDS Watchman]

Elder L. Tom Perry would disagree with your take that Moroni isn't talking about the members of the Church polluting the Holy church of God.

The following is a quote from his October 1992 conference address:

"It is from the depths of his heart that Moroni cries out to THOSE WHO WILL EVENTUALLY RECEIVE THE RECORD. He wants to spare those who read his account the heartache and misery which comes from disobedience.

He writes first to the MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH and then to those who have not embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:

“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

“Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were presenCHURCHYesyet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

“For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?” (Morm. 8:34–38.)

I guess one of the greatest mysteries of mortality is why mankind fails to learn from history. Why do those who profess to be true followers of Christ so often become victims of the enticements of the world?"

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... ous-things

Ezra Taft Benson also stated that these verses refer to the Church.

You do realize that Both Elder Perry and President Bensen were not referring to themselves as those who have corrupted the holy church of God rigused.Noquote]

Yes, of course I realize that. The point remains that those verses are in deed talking about our Church. The Holy Church of God is OUR church, not apostate Christianity.

If you read the rest of Elder Perry's talk, he talks about the love of money and worldly possessions, as well as the neglect of the poor by so many Church members.

This talk was given 26 years ago. There were a lot of problems in the Church then, but it has gotten so much worse.

Today the Church has been shown to hide its money and spend more on one lavish mall than it does on the poor and the needy. That's not even counting all of the money spent on other worldly buildings built by the Church.

You really don't see a parallel here to Moroni's words?

You need to take a long hard look at yourself and consider the possibility that you are in denial.

The Church is absolutely corrupt from top to bottom.

Read his talk, he is not talking about the church collectively and it’s leadership he is talking about the church individually. And Mormon is not talking about The church collectively either.

Interesting that you would pick words from one prophet you feel like fits your narrative but disregard all of the other overwhelming instruction given from the pulpit (including Elder Perry) about what the church will accomplish before the return of the Lord.

If you really think Elder Perry felt that the leadership was corrupt that just shows more ignorance.

No I don't think Elder Perry thought the leadership was corrupt.

However, Moroni sure as heck did.

[drtanner]

You do realize that Both Elder Perry and President Bensen were not referring to themselves as those who have corrupted the holy church of God rigused.Noquote]

Yes, of course I realize that. The point remains that those verses are in deed talking about our Church. The Holy Church of God is OUR church, not apostate Christianity.

If you read the rest of Elder Perry's talk, he talks about the love of money and worldly possessions, as well as the neglect of the poor by so many Church members.

This talk was given 26 years ago. There were a lot of problems in the Church then, but it has gotten so much worse.

Today the Church has been shown to hide its money and spend more on one lavish mall than it does on the poor and the needy. That's not even counting all of the money spent on other worldly buildings built by the Church.

You really don't see a parallel here to Moroni's words?

You need to take a long hard look at yourself and consider the possibility that you are in denial.

The Church is absolutely corrupt from top to bottom.

Read his talk, he is not talking about the church collectively and it’s leadership he is talking about the church individually. And Mormon is not talking about The church collectively either.

Interesting that you would pick words from one prophet you feel like fits your narrative but disregard all of the other overwhelming instruction given from the pulpit (including Elder Perry) about what the church will accomplish before the return of the Lord.

If you really think Elder Perry felt that the leadership was corrupt that just shows more ignorance.

No I don't think Elder Perry thought the leadership was corrupt.

However, Moroni sure as heck did.

Not sure why you are quoting Elder Perry as if he is saying the holy church of God was corrupt then?

Her certainly wasn’t:

Our message is unique. We declare to the world that the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth. We declare with boldness that the keys of the priesthood have been restored to man, with the power to seal on earth and in the heavens. The saving ordinances pronounced by the Lord as requirements for entering into eternal life with Him can now be performed with binding authority by those who worthily exercise the power of His holy priesthood. We declare to the world that this is the day referred to by biblical prophets as the latter days. It is the final time, before the coming of Jesus Christ to rule and reign over the earth.
We invite all to listen to the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ from us. Then you can compare the glorious message with what you may hear from others, and you can determine which is from God and which is from man.

My witness to you is that this is the Church of Jesus Christ, established in the latter days. In the name of our Lord and Savior, even Jesus Christ, amen.


The course we are to follow is revealed through His holy prophets, who direct us to be obedient to the Lord’s instructions.


Note that the Lord delivered His word to Moses, His prophet. The Lord knows what will bless His children, and to that end He delivers laws through His prophets to the people. If obeyed, these laws will lead us back to God. We do not determine for ourselves what those laws are. They are given from God to man.

Repeatedly the scriptures declare that the Lord gives His commandments to the children of men through living prophets. No committee, assembly, or any other authority has the right to dictate to Him doctrine that is contrary to His law. God’s eternal blessings are contingent upon our obedience and adherence to the word of the Lord that is revealed to us through His holy prophets.