Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 17th, 2019, 4:22 pm
Show me where they haven’t.
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What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
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Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 17th, 2019, 4:42 pm
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 17th, 2019, 8:19 pm
Leviticus was written by Moses, a prophet. The style is written in blessing and cursing, so is the Book of Mormon, it you keep commandments you are blessed, if you don't you will be swept off the face of the land. Not singular or plural!Stahura wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:10 amLets look at Leviticus 26:Connie561 wrote: ↑December 4th, 2019, 11:45 amI respectfully disagree that everytime like a prophet gets revelation he has to say "thus sayeth the Lord". The Book of Mormon has lots of revelation that do not begin with that phrase. It is written in the style of Leviticus chapter 26. It talks about blessings and cursings. There is a warning to the World at the end of the proclamation which our church could not enforce. It is a warning straight from the Lord.Mindfields wrote: ↑December 4th, 2019, 11:06 am The Family Proclamation is a policy document. There hasn't been an actual revelation from God, "thus sayeth the Lord", to the church since the death of Joseph Smith.
13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
16 I also will ado this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, bconsumption, and cthe burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be aslain before your benemies: they that hate you shall creign over you; and ye shall dflee when none pursueth you.
18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will apunish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the apride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
If It was in the style of Leviticus 26 , the Proclamation would say this:
I THE LORD GODWE, THE FIRST PRESIDENCY and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of GodME and that the family is central to the Creator’sMY plan for the eternal destiny of His MY children.
ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. ME Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parentsMINE, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
IN THE PREMORTAL REALM, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal FatherME and accepted HisMY plan by which HisMY children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of GodME and for families to be united eternally.
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT that GodI gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandmentI declare that MY Commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that GodI Declare that I have commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
WE DECLARE I Declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’sMY eternal plan.
HUSBAND AND WIFE have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.
THE FAMILY is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to HisMY eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.
... You get the picture
Oh, no, it was The FP and Q12WE, THE FIRST PRESIDENCY and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim
Is it God that warns us? Let see
Oh .. WE... WE again. In other words, they, not God are warning us. This is NOT in the same style as Leviticus 26.WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn
You, and those "liking" your post know that they don't mean every revelation has to LITERALLY say the 4 words "thus sayeth the Lord".
You and those "liking" your post also know full well the difference between Leviticus Chapter 26 and the proclamation . They are not similar styles at all. Leviticus is God himself talking directly to his people, the proclamation is the Q12 and the FP talking to the people..
Moses , speaking to the people, relays this message, saying "I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD", or, in other words... THUS SAYETH THE LORD"13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright."
To suggest that they are the same is to me is incredibly misleading, and there are those who will read this claim and assume you are correct and you will have unknowingly duped someone into beliving something that simply isn't true. I'm disappointed, but not surprised that drtanner would jump aboard and prop this claim up, as I KNOW he knows that they are not the same in any way, shape or form. He has no excuse.
I feel bad you misunderstood and went to all that trouble for nothing. As for me misleading anyone, I am going to have to conclude that you misunderstood my point. Oh and I don't have a problem with drtanner and his posts, I enjoy reading them.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 17th, 2019, 8:35 pm
Well, now you decided to not criticize the brethren for not saying "Thus says the Lord"!Stahura wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:02 amWeird direction to go with that, "Highly Favored of the Lord" in our day would likely be something like"I've truly been blessed by the Lord", which people say all the time.drtanner wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:54 amI mean can you imagine the uproar if the brethren would have started with something like Nephi mentioning they were highly favored of the Lord and large in stature?Stahura wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:10 amLets look at Leviticus 26:Connie561 wrote: ↑December 4th, 2019, 11:45 am
I respectfully disagree that everytime like a prophet gets revelation he has to say "thus sayeth the Lord". The Book of Mormon has lots of revelation that do not begin with that phrase. It is written in the style of Leviticus chapter 26. It talks about blessings and cursings. There is a warning to the World at the end of the proclamation which our church could not enforce. It is a warning straight from the Lord.
13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
16 I also will ado this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, bconsumption, and cthe burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be aslain before your benemies: they that hate you shall creign over you; and ye shall dflee when none pursueth you.
18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will apunish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the apride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
If It was in the style of Leviticus 26 , the Proclamation would say this:
I THE LORD GODWE, THE FIRST PRESIDENCY and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of GodME and that the family is central to the Creator’sMY plan for the eternal destiny of His MY children.
ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. ME Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parentsMINE, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
IN THE PREMORTAL REALM, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal FatherME and accepted HisMY plan by which HisMY children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of GodME and for families to be united eternally.
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT that GodI gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandmentI declare that MY Commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that GodI Declare that I have commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
WE DECLARE I Declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’sMY eternal plan.
HUSBAND AND WIFE have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.
THE FAMILY is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to HisMY eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.
... You get the picture
Oh, no, it was The FP and Q12WE, THE FIRST PRESIDENCY and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim
Is it God that warns us? Let see
Oh .. WE... WE again. In other words, they, not God are warning us. This is NOT in the same style as Leviticus 26.WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn
You, and those "liking" your post know that they don't mean every revelation has to LITERALLY say the 4 words "thus sayeth the Lord".
You and those "liking" your post also know full well the difference between Leviticus Chapter 26 and the proclamation . They are not similar styles at all. Leviticus is God himself talking directly to his people, the proclamation is the Q12 and the FP talking to the people..
Moses , speaking to the people, relays this message, saying "I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD", or, in other words... THUS SAYETH THE LORD"13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright."
To suggest that they are the same is to me is incredibly misleading, and there are those who will read this claim and assume you are correct and you will have unknowingly duped someone into beliving something that simply isn't true. I'm disappointed, but not surprised that drtanner would jump aboard and prop this claim up, as I KNOW he knows that they are not the same in any way, shape or form. He has no excuse.
And just to clarify by saying you know I know is an attempt to manipulate, but just so folks know where I stand, they are the same. And I stand 100% behind the proclamation as prophetic fruit.
Let me ask you an honest question:
Do you believe President Nelson is a prophet, seer, and revelator?
To be clear, I'm not criticizing them for not saying "Thus says the Lord", I'm only criticizing you guys for claiming that the proclamation and Leviticus are written , and I quote, " in the same style". This is an objectively, demonstrably false observation . It is not true . One is the Lord God repeatedly saying I, Me, I I I I. The other , no attempt at any point is made by the FP Q12 to portray that it is God , and not them talking.
I've answered this question many times, I've said the same thing every time. I don't know, but I like him and his teachings and his administration more than most men to occupy the position of President of the church. He's probably number 4 in my book.
Winner!
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 3:13 am
5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 9:57 am
What is happening here is what happens in most relationships.
When you ask a child who is disgruntled with his parents if his parents love him and they say “no, they show no evidence of that love.” You then proceed to ask the child what evidence they would need that would show love and they will cite things like “they haven’t bought me a car or let me stay out all night, that is true evidence of love.”
They then proceed to tell all of their friends how much they are not loved by their parents and in turn have those feelings validated by friends who feel the same thing or who weren’t feeling the same way but ignorantly agree because of naivety.
You then ask the parents. “Do you love your child?” To which they respond, “more than life itself.” “And what evidence do you have of that love?” To which they respond with things like, “I work to provide so They can have food to eat and participate in activities they enjoy,” and “I require them to do choirs and hard work so they can learn principles of self reliance,” and the list goes on.
In the meantime the child’s resentment grows and the opportunity for a healthy relationship fades away.
Unfortunately the child is looking for the wrong evidence and because in his/ her paradigm love equals something different they will continue in bitterness until one day when they have an experience with their own child where they will realize what true evidence of love really looks is.
When you ask a child who is disgruntled with his parents if his parents love him and they say “no, they show no evidence of that love.” You then proceed to ask the child what evidence they would need that would show love and they will cite things like “they haven’t bought me a car or let me stay out all night, that is true evidence of love.”
They then proceed to tell all of their friends how much they are not loved by their parents and in turn have those feelings validated by friends who feel the same thing or who weren’t feeling the same way but ignorantly agree because of naivety.
You then ask the parents. “Do you love your child?” To which they respond, “more than life itself.” “And what evidence do you have of that love?” To which they respond with things like, “I work to provide so They can have food to eat and participate in activities they enjoy,” and “I require them to do choirs and hard work so they can learn principles of self reliance,” and the list goes on.
In the meantime the child’s resentment grows and the opportunity for a healthy relationship fades away.
Unfortunately the child is looking for the wrong evidence and because in his/ her paradigm love equals something different they will continue in bitterness until one day when they have an experience with their own child where they will realize what true evidence of love really looks is.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 10:22 am
d.r.tanner,drtanner wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 9:57 am What is happening here is what happens in most relationships.
When you ask a child who is disgruntled with his parents if his parents love him and they say “no, they show no evidence of that love.” You then proceed to ask the child what evidence they would need that would show love and they will cite things like “they haven’t bought me a car or let me stay out all night, that is true evidence of love.”
They then proceed to tell all of their friends how much they are not loved by their parents and in turn have those feelings validated by friends who feel the same thing or who weren’t feeling the same way but ignorantly agree because of naivety.
You then ask the parents. “Do you love your child?” To which they respond, “more than life itself.” “And what evidence do you have of that love?” To which they respond with things like, “I work to provide so They can have food to eat and participate in activities they enjoy,” and “I require them to do choirs and hard work so they can learn principles of self reliance,” and the list goes on.
In the meantime the child’s resentment grows and the opportunity for a healthy relationship fades away.
Unfortunately the child is looking for the wrong evidence and because in his/ her paradigm love equals something different they will continue in bitterness until one day when they have an experience with their own child where they will realize what true evidence of love really looks is.
What is also happening is that you are unwilling to come to the table and define terms, namely: What is "fruit"?
So I don't have to repeat myself, please see viewtopic.php?f=14&t=53284&start=210#p986755.
If you refuse to come to the table and define terms, then that type of behavior really does have a big negative impact on a relationship because it communicates that only the way YOU define things is what matters, and what others think is irrelevant.
You have said that agreeing on what "fruit" is is impossible. I say, why not have a discussion about it? I can't imagine it's impossible, if we let the Scriptures be our guide.
Are you refusing to talk about it?
So far you have nominated temples and the Proclamation to the World as fruit. They fall short for reasons already iterated.
The first step is to get on the same page with what "fruit" is. Please read viewtopic.php?f=14&t=53284&start=210#p986755 and express yourself.
Ignoring questions doesn't help in the pursuit of truth, does it? I trust you don't treat your kids or wife this way, do you?
If you do, perhaps that's why your kids may feel you don't love them (assuming your comment above is about you and your relationship with your kids). If you don't listen to them, that hurts them. Please respond. The back-and-forth is good for the readers here so they can come to understanding as well, and hopefully someone other than you can weigh in as well.
See viewtopic.php?f=14&t=53284&start=210#p986755.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 10:41 am
Why do I think temples and the proclamation are fruit, the simple answer they inspire me to love God and encourage my family to love God.topcat wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 10:22 amd.r.tanner,drtanner wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 9:57 am What is happening here is what happens in most relationships.
When you ask a child who is disgruntled with his parents if his parents love him and they say “no, they show no evidence of that love.” You then proceed to ask the child what evidence they would need that would show love and they will cite things like “they haven’t bought me a car or let me stay out all night, that is true evidence of love.”
They then proceed to tell all of their friends how much they are not loved by their parents and in turn have those feelings validated by friends who feel the same thing or who weren’t feeling the same way but ignorantly agree because of naivety.
You then ask the parents. “Do you love your child?” To which they respond, “more than life itself.” “And what evidence do you have of that love?” To which they respond with things like, “I work to provide so They can have food to eat and participate in activities they enjoy,” and “I require them to do choirs and hard work so they can learn principles of self reliance,” and the list goes on.
In the meantime the child’s resentment grows and the opportunity for a healthy relationship fades away.
Unfortunately the child is looking for the wrong evidence and because in his/ her paradigm love equals something different they will continue in bitterness until one day when they have an experience with their own child where they will realize what true evidence of love really looks is.
What is also happening is that you are unwilling to come to the table and define terms, namely: What is "fruit"?
So I don't have to repeat myself, please see viewtopic.php?f=14&t=53284&start=210#p986755.
If you refuse to come to the table and define terms, then that type of behavior really does have a big negative impact on a relationship because it communicates that only the way YOU define things is what matters, and what others think is irrelevant.
You have said that agreeing on what "fruit" is is impossible. I say, why not have a discussion about it? I can't imagine it's impossible, if we let the Scriptures be our guide.
Are you refusing to talk about it?
So far you have nominated temples and the Proclamation to the World as fruit. They fall short for reasons already iterated.
The first step is to get on the same page with what "fruit" is. Please read viewtopic.php?f=14&t=53284&start=210#p986755 and express yourself.
Ignoring questions doesn't help in the pursuit of truth, does it? I trust you don't treat your kids or wife this way, do you?
If you do, perhaps that's why your kids may feel you don't love them (assuming your comment above is about you and your relationship with your kids). If you don't listen to them, that hurts them. Please respond. The back-and-forth is good for the readers here so they can come to understanding as well, and hopefully someone other than you can weigh in as well.
See viewtopic.php?f=14&t=53284&start=210#p986755.
Moroni 7:13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.
Temple attendance has been nothing but delicious fruit for me. Just as reading the Book of Mormon is delicious for me and is evidence of Joseph, attending the temple is evidence that authority for them to operate is still on the earth through a living prophet.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 10:51 am
Okay.
As far as Temples:
As has been mentioned, anybody can announce and direct the building of temples. "The Remnant" folk from Snuffer are saving up to build a temple, but It seems it'll take them a solid 100 years to gather the funds needed. I think they want 5 Million bucks.
There's a church in Brazil with around 8 Million Members(hard to give an accurate number of membership when you call yourself "non-denominational" called the Igreja Universal do Reino de Deus and they build a legit Temple of Solomon, with the same dimensions scaled up a bit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of ... A3o_Paulo)
Do we give Edir Macedo a point for that?
Does Denver get a point? Or does he not get a point until the Temple is actually built?
As far as the keys to loose and bind
Please understand, I'm not trying to debate or argue or attack right now. I want you to understand my thought process and have a legitimate discussion.
I guess it's hard to say that, given the means through which we claim that he has this power to lose and bind on heaven and earth, that this is fruit. Think about literal fruit for a second, why is that the symbolism we use? Because you can see the fruit hanging with your eyes, you can feel it, pluck it and taste it.
With that said, every other instance of someone receiving the power to loose and bind on heaven and earth was clearly received from God himself, by his voice. You can SEE when, where it happened, that it was by God himself. There is no such thing for any man after Joseph Smith. The passing on of the keys from man to man is one thing, but I cannot read the scriptures and come out of them believing that these men do not need to also receive the POWER directly from heaven. Such a thing is not found, I see that fruit nowhere. The men that followed Joseph do not claim that God gave it to them. They claim that God gave it to Joseph, and that Joseph gave it to them, and that they gave it to others until our day.
All my life I've seen the claims of these priesthood powers and keys being passed on through the laying on of hands. I have no objection to that, but I have an objection to the claim that they have some new power and ability simply because of this ordination at the hands of man. This just isn't in the scriptures. Beyond any ordination, it requires something else directly from God.
I do not know that he received this power. I only know that I can look up the date where he was ordained by other men. I see no document or statement or scripture from the Lord stating anything about this event. This is also why I cannot say that Russell M Nelson does NOT have this ability, because I can't possibly know what happened between him and God, but I do not take the mere fact that he was ordained as being "fruit" that he has that power, and I do not see him working the types of works that I would expect from someone who has that power. Hence why my answer is, "I don't know". I will one day though.
Side note, this is why it'd be beneficial for them to share their spiritual experiences. In Joseph's day, they shared their experiences, when they'd speak in tongues, when the Spirit fell upon them, they'd describe in great detail what they saw, heard, felt. You can see the fruit there. Today they are just quiet. We hear from them twice a year, we don't hear of many experiences and the ones we do hear about are kinda underwhelming, like the story of that kid who received his wheelchair. He would have received it eventually, he just happened to receive it JUST in time to meet Nelson? Anyways, I'm not trying to criticize anyone here.
Joseph Smith talked about this topic, Section 128:
He mentions actual revelation by Jesus Christ as being the means through which this power is given, twice. I get that the general belief is that this means that the dispensation head receives it through revelation, and then everyone else that he passes it onto gets it, but I don't believe this. Given my limited personal experience, I believe any priesthood power I've properly exercised came by virtue of my faith and specific experiences/moments I had with the Lord. This aligns with what I see in the scriptures, and it's what I'd expect from the Lord's prophet to a much greater degree. I'd expect any successor to the dispensation head to do exactly what the dispensation did, and receive exactly what he received in the same way. The way Melchizadek did, Enoch, Nephi, Alma, Joseph, Elijah, Elisha, Moses. Yes there was ordinations, but that wasn't the end of the matter.8 Now, the nature of this ordinance consists in the apower of the priesthood, by the revelation of Jesus Christ, wherein it is granted that whatsoever you bbind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Or, in other words, taking a different view of the translation, whatsoever you record on earth shall be recorded in heaven, and whatsoever you do not record on earth shall not be recorded in heaven; for out of the books shall your dead be judged, according to their own works, whether they themselves have attended to the cordinances in their own propria persona, or by the means of their own agents, according to the ordinance which God has prepared for their salvation from before the foundation of the world, according to the records which they have kept concerning their dead.
9 It may seem to some to be a very bold doctrine that we talk of—a power which records or binds on earth and binds in heaven. Nevertheless, in all ages of the world, whenever the Lord has given a adispensation of the priesthood to any man by actual revelation, or any set of men, this power has always been given. Hence, whatsoever those men did in bauthority, in the name of the Lord, and did it truly and faithfully, and kept a proper and faithful record of the same, it became a law on earth and in heaven, and could not be annulled, according to the decrees of the great cJehovah. This is a faithful saying. Who can hear it?
10 And again, for the precedent, Matthew 16:18, 19: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this arock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
11 Now the great and grand secret of the whole matter, and the summum bonum of the whole subject that is lying before us, consists in obtaining the apowers of the Holy Priesthood. For him to whom these keys are given there is no difficulty in obtaining a bknowledge of facts in relation to the csalvation of the children of men, both as well for the dead as for the living.
Okay, there are my thoughts. We can explore this as much as you want, or you can move on to another fruit you believe is a fruit of President Nelson.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 12:10 pm
Another genuine question,
Let’s assume president Nelson exhibit all of the fruits which would qualify him in ever sense of the word in your eyes as a prophet, seer, and revelator. What would you change as a result?
Let’s assume president Nelson exhibit all of the fruits which would qualify him in ever sense of the word in your eyes as a prophet, seer, and revelator. What would you change as a result?
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 12:31 pm
As for me I would exclaim, "Now I know that you are a true messenger sent from Father"... Because he would have the appropriate "signs"... And then I would hearken more diligently to his words... Until then I continue to be a bit sceptical (as Adam was sceptical of the mingled precepts of "religion" being presented to him) and continue patiently looking to Father and Christ for greater light and knowledge.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 12:49 pm
cab wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 12:31 pm
As for me I would exclaim, "Now I know that you are a true messenger sent from Father"... Because he would have the appropriate "signs"... And then I would hearken more diligently to his words... Until then I continue to be a bit sceptical (as Adam was sceptical of the mingled precepts of "religion" being presented to him) and continue patiently looking to Father and Christ for greater light and knowledge.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 1:13 pm
I think you may define yourself as a bit sceptical as in the story of Adam and Eve. There is another way to be sceptical and that is a Doubting Thomas. He did not want to believe that Christ was resurrected from the dead. He also wanted evidence and eye witnesses did not qualify to him. Jesus said into Thomas, Because you have seen me, you believed. Blessed are those who have not seen yet believed". John 20:29 (from memory, may not be a direct quote)cab wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 12:31 pm
As for me I would exclaim, "Now I know that you are a true messenger sent from Father"... Because he would have the appropriate "signs"... And then I would hearken more diligently to his words... Until then I continue to be a bit sceptical (as Adam was sceptical of the mingled precepts of "religion" being presented to him) and continue patiently looking to Father and Christ for greater light and knowledge.
I am not saying you need to be in one camp or the other. In fact you need both camps of waiting for messengers or believing eye witnesses.
There are blessings associated with believing the testimonies of the prophets and apostles. Then on the other hand you can't believe everyone who claims to be a prophet.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 2:23 pm
Do you not see how confused your logic is?Connie561 wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 1:13 pmI think you may define yourself as a bit sceptical as in the story of Adam and Eve. There is another way to be sceptical and that is a Doubting Thomas. He did not want to believe that Christ was resurrected from the dead. He also wanted evidence and eye witnesses did not qualify to him. Jesus said into Thomas, Because you have seen me, you believed. Blessed are those who have not seen yet believed". John 20:29 (from memory, may not be a direct quote)cab wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 12:31 pm
As for me I would exclaim, "Now I know that you are a true messenger sent from Father"... Because he would have the appropriate "signs"... And then I would hearken more diligently to his words... Until then I continue to be a bit sceptical (as Adam was sceptical of the mingled precepts of "religion" being presented to him) and continue patiently looking to Father and Christ for greater light and knowledge.
I am not saying you need to be in one camp or the other. In fact you need both camps of waiting for messengers or believing eye witnesses.
There are blessings associated with believing the testimonies of the prophets and apostles. Then on the other hand you can't believe everyone who claims to be a prophet.
Yes, blessed is he who believe in JESUS even though he has not seen him. THE LORD. Why would you apply that to Russell M Nelson?
Using the logic you just used, we should then believe in any prophet without seeing the fruits of the prophet. Blessed are they who have not seen the fruit and yet believe, right? Okay, so might as well just believe in every man who claims to be a prophet because he'll be blessed.
Wait, no? Oh so then I should not be believing without seeing? I should behold the fruit of the man?
Which one is it? You continually weave in and out of claiming that the fruit of an individual is important and not important. Tomorrow you'll again be telling someone that they should look and behold the fruit of RMN to determine he's a prophet, and then next week you'll be making an argument that they should need to behold anything, but blessed are they if they believe without beholding.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 2:24 pm
Are the fruits of the Book of Mormon the book or what happens when you apply its teachings?
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 2:27 pm
Yeah, I think Cab answered it pretty well.
I'd testify to others that there is a prophet, I'd study his teachings like I do Joseph and the others in the scriptures. I'd share his teachings a lot more.
Plenty of things about my perspective would change.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 2:33 pm
Both. It invites all to come unto Christ. That in and of itself is a good fruit.
I already addressed the road you're going down, I just don't know if you saw it.
You're saying that if the Book of Mormon is true, and good, because of the good results that came from applying it's teachings, then RMN must also be a prophet if there are good results that came from applying it's teachings.
Again I say, you can apply the teachings of Denver Snuffer, and other modern Christian leaders, and you will have good results. You aren't about to accept those fruits and claim that they are prophets, are you? So why does that work for RMN but not others? Is it just about Math? If you have enough Positives to outnumber the negatives then that person may be deemed a prophet?
This is what I've attempted to communicate to you multiple times. I benefited greatly by studying the words of Denver Snuffer and other Christians, but I do not accept him or them as being called of God for any mighty work by those merits alone, so I would feel dishonest if I were to accept Russell M Nelson by those same merits alone.
Surely you can't blame me for that?
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 2:36 pm
Is there any down side to putting his words to a test (Alma 32) by hearkening diligently to them now, and then discerning what fruits of the Spirit you experience? It would be sweet, bitter, or neutral, all of which should be instructive.cab wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 12:31 pm
As for me I would exclaim, "Now I know that you are a true messenger sent from Father"... Because he would have the appropriate "signs"... And then I would hearken more diligently to his words... Until then I continue to be a bit sceptical (as Adam was sceptical of the mingled precepts of "religion" being presented to him) and continue patiently looking to Father and Christ for greater light and knowledge.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 2:37 pm
Your description is too narrow that doubting belongs only applies to Jesus. My responses have struck a nerve with you. I have not changed my position as you claim. What are you claiming? That you are a prophet and I change my story tomorrow?Stahura wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 2:23 pmDo you not see how confused your logic is?Connie561 wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 1:13 pmI think you may define yourself as a bit sceptical as in the story of Adam and Eve. There is another way to be sceptical and that is a Doubting Thomas. He did not want to believe that Christ was resurrected from the dead. He also wanted evidence and eye witnesses did not qualify to him. Jesus said into Thomas, Because you have seen me, you believed. Blessed are those who have not seen yet believed". John 20:29 (from memory, may not be a direct quote)cab wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 12:31 pm
As for me I would exclaim, "Now I know that you are a true messenger sent from Father"... Because he would have the appropriate "signs"... And then I would hearken more diligently to his words... Until then I continue to be a bit sceptical (as Adam was sceptical of the mingled precepts of "religion" being presented to him) and continue patiently looking to Father and Christ for greater light and knowledge.
I am not saying you need to be in one camp or the other. In fact you need both camps of waiting for messengers or believing eye witnesses.
There are blessings associated with believing the testimonies of the prophets and apostles. Then on the other hand you can't believe everyone who claims to be a prophet.
Yes, blessed is he who believe in JESUS even though he has not seen him. THE LORD. Why would you apply that to Russell M Nelson?
Using the logic you just used, we should then believe in any prophet without seeing the fruits of the prophet. Blessed are they who have not seen the fruit and yet believe, right? Okay, so might as well just believe in every man who claims to be a prophet because he'll be blessed.
Wait, no? Oh so then I should not be believing without seeing? I should behold the fruit of the man?
Which one is it? You continually weave in and out of claiming that the fruit of an individual is important and not important. Tomorrow you'll again be telling someone that they should look and behold the fruit of RMN to determine he's a prophet, and then next week you'll be making an argument that they should need to behold anything, but blessed are they if they believe without beholding.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 2:50 pm
The difference between Russell M. Nelson and others who claim they saw Christ is priesthood. The true messengers hold the priesthood. God, Jesus, Peter,James, and John. You can not take the priesthood on because you want it. Hebrews 5:4 is the answer about the difference between the churches.Stahura wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 2:33 pmBoth. It invites all to come unto Christ. That in and of itself is a good fruit.
I already addressed the road you're going down, I just don't know if you saw it.
You're saying that if the Book of Mormon is true, and good, because of the good results that came from applying it's teachings, then RMN must also be a prophet if there are good results that came from applying it's teachings.
Again I say, you can apply the teachings of Denver Snuffer, and other modern Christian leaders, and you will have good results. You aren't about to accept those fruits and claim that they are prophets, are you? So why does that work for RMN but not others? Is it just about Math? If you have enough Positives to outnumber the negatives then that person may be deemed a prophet?
This is what I've attempted to communicate to you multiple times. I benefited greatly by studying the words of Denver Snuffer and other Christians, but I do not accept him or them as being called of God for any mighty work by those merits alone, so I would feel dishonest if I were to accept Russell M Nelson by those same merits alone.
Surely you can't blame me for that?
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 2:50 pm
Nope, but that in and of itself isn't enough to use to determine that he must be a prophet, because that same test resulted in sweetness from various sources, many of which contradict each other and call each other apostate.wwward wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 2:36 pmIs there any down side to putting his words to a test (Alma 32) by hearkening diligently to them now, and then discerning what fruits of the Spirit you experience? It would be sweet, bitter, or neutral, all of which should be instructive.cab wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 12:31 pm
As for me I would exclaim, "Now I know that you are a true messenger sent from Father"... Because he would have the appropriate "signs"... And then I would hearken more diligently to his words... Until then I continue to be a bit sceptical (as Adam was sceptical of the mingled precepts of "religion" being presented to him) and continue patiently looking to Father and Christ for greater light and knowledge.
My experience is likely the same as Cab's, and plenty of others on this forum. We have put his words to the test, and the fruit was sweet. We have also put the words of others to the test, maybe some on this forum, maybe someone on a blog, maybe someone who was excommunicated, and the fruit was also sweet.
In order to stay true to ourselves, we have to apply the same standards to everyone. I don't believe ALL of those people are prophets, and yet the fruit from that test was basically the same from all of them. What good is that information to me so far? It's not enough.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 3:19 pm
Stahura wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 2:50 pmNope, but that in and of itself isn't enough to use to determine that he must be a prophet, because that same test resulted in sweetness from various sources, many of which contradict each other and call each other apostate.wwward wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 2:36 pmIs there any down side to putting his words to a test (Alma 32) by hearkening diligently to them now, and then discerning what fruits of the Spirit you experience? It would be sweet, bitter, or neutral, all of which should be instructive.cab wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 12:31 pm
As for me I would exclaim, "Now I know that you are a true messenger sent from Father"... Because he would have the appropriate "signs"... And then I would hearken more diligently to his words... Until then I continue to be a bit sceptical (as Adam was sceptical of the mingled precepts of "religion" being presented to him) and continue patiently looking to Father and Christ for greater light and knowledge.
My experience is likely the same as Cab's, and plenty of others on this forum. We have put his words to the test, and the fruit was sweet. We have also put the words of others to the test, maybe some on this forum, maybe someone on a blog, maybe someone who was excommunicated, and the fruit was also sweet.
In order to stay true to ourselves, we have to apply the same standards to everyone. I don't believe ALL of those people are prophets, and yet the fruit from that test was basically the same from all of them. What good is that information to me so far? It's not enough.
Interesting that you find equally sweet fruits from all or many well-meaning (but conflicting) sources. It's not as if false sources proclaim no truth at all. In fact, the CIA rule of thumb is 60% truth and 40% disinformation.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 3:25 pm
I already addressed this too.Connie561 wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 2:50 pm The difference between Russell M. Nelson and others who claim they saw Christ is priesthood. The true messengers hold the priesthood. God, Jesus, Peter,James, and John. You can not take the priesthood on because you want it. Hebrews 5:4 is the answer about the difference between the churches.
I am a lifelong member, I served a mission. The typical Mormon talking points are not foreign to me.
It's just unavoidable, these prophets throughout history were not able to work mighty works in the name of the Lord because another man ordained them. They were able to do so because their Faith in Jesus Christ caused the Lord to give them that priesthood by his own voice.
Read the story of Enoch in Moses 6. Notwithstanding his ordination at the hands of another man, it was not until God directly gave him the ability to do anything in the name of the Lord by his own voice.
Read the story of Adam, how did he receive the priesthood? By the Spirit of God, no man, no messenger was involved.26 And it came to pass that Enoch journeyed in the land, among the people; and as he journeyed, the aSpirit of God descended out of heaven, and abode upon him.
27 And he heard a avoice from heaven, saying: bEnoch, my son, cprophesy unto this people, and say unto them—Repent, for thus saith the Lord: I am dangry with this people, and my fierce anger is kindled against them; for their hearts have waxed ehard, and their fears are dull of hearing, and their eyes gcannot see afar off;
28 And for these many generations, ever since the day that I created them, have they gone astray, and have adenied me, and have sought their own counsels in the dark; and in their own abominations have they devised murder, and have not kept the commandments, which I gave unto their father, Adam.
29 Wherefore, they have foresworn themselves, and, by their oaths, they have brought upon themselves death; and a ahell I have prepared for them, if they repent not;
30 And this is a decree, which I have sent forth in the beginning of the world, from my own mouth, from the foundation thereof, and by the mouths of my servants, thy fathers, have I decreed it, even as it shall be sent forth in the world, unto the ends thereof.
31 And when Enoch had heard these words, he abowed himself to the earth, before the Lord, and spake before the Lord, saying: bWhy is it that I have found favor in thy sight, and am but a lad, and all the people chate me; for I am dslow of speech; wherefore am I thy servant?
32 And the Lord said unto Enoch: Go forth and do as I have commanded thee, and no man shall pierce thee. Open thy amouth, and it shall be filled, and I will give thee utterance, for all flesh is in my hands, and I will do as seemeth me good.
33 Say unto this people: aChoose ye bthis day, to serve the Lord God who made you.
34 Behold my aSpirit is upon you, wherefore all thy words will I justify; and the bmountains shall flee before you, and the crivers shall turn from their course; and thou shalt abide in me, and I in you; therefore dwalk with me.
in case you missed what happened:65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was aborn of the Spirit, and became quickened in the binner man.
66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with afire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the brecord of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;
67 And thou art after the aorder of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.
68 Behold, thou art aone in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my bsons. Amen.
You should know that this "order of him who was without beginner of days" etc. Refers to the Priesthood."67 And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity."
Melchizadek
JST GENESIS 14, this one is the most direct teaching on the topic:
Now, in case you doubt that Enoch properly received the priesthood in the section that I quoted because the Lord doesn't actually reference the priesthood, pay attention the power that he was given, and realize that those exact things are promised to those who receive this priesthood right here in JST Genesis 14 and that this promise was made directly to ENOCH.27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;
29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.
NEPHI30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;
31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.
Helaman 10
By God's voice.6 Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people.
7 Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.
Jesus' Disciples
Matthew 16
Again, by the Lord's own voice, the Lord who happened to be in an earthly tabernacle at that time.
Jesus' Other Disciples in the Americas
3 Nephi 11+
Given the ability to confer the Holy Ghost directly from Jesus. They also receive the Holy Ghost , and yet it wasn't the result of a confirmation or laying on of hands at that moment.
How about this dispensation?
D&C 84:
What need is there for God to "confirm" the priesthood upon them if they were already ordained? Because they didn't have it until God confirmed it upon them, regardless of ordination42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels acharge concerning you.
we could go as deep into this as you want.
Long story short, the picture that is painted by typical LDS talking points just isn't found in the scriptures. The picture that IS found in every single canon book of scripture is the picture where men, regardless of the fact that they received an ordination of another man, even a dispensation head, still had to receive the priesthood directly from God.
If Russell M Nelson is a Prophet in every sense of the word, he will have done exactly what all these men did, and receive what they received in the same way.
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 3:26 pm
Equally sweet fruit, and more bitter from some than others.Allison wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 3:19 pmStahura wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 2:50 pmNope, but that in and of itself isn't enough to use to determine that he must be a prophet, because that same test resulted in sweetness from various sources, many of which contradict each other and call each other apostate.wwward wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 2:36 pmIs there any down side to putting his words to a test (Alma 32) by hearkening diligently to them now, and then discerning what fruits of the Spirit you experience? It would be sweet, bitter, or neutral, all of which should be instructive.cab wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 12:31 pm
As for me I would exclaim, "Now I know that you are a true messenger sent from Father"... Because he would have the appropriate "signs"... And then I would hearken more diligently to his words... Until then I continue to be a bit sceptical (as Adam was sceptical of the mingled precepts of "religion" being presented to him) and continue patiently looking to Father and Christ for greater light and knowledge.
My experience is likely the same as Cab's, and plenty of others on this forum. We have put his words to the test, and the fruit was sweet. We have also put the words of others to the test, maybe some on this forum, maybe someone on a blog, maybe someone who was excommunicated, and the fruit was also sweet.
In order to stay true to ourselves, we have to apply the same standards to everyone. I don't believe ALL of those people are prophets, and yet the fruit from that test was basically the same from all of them. What good is that information to me so far? It's not enough.
Interesting that you find equally sweet fruits from all or many well-meaning (but conflicting) sources. It's not as if false sources proclaim no truth at all. In fact, the CIA rule of thumb is 60% truth and 40% disinformation.
60/40 eh? Guess we narrowed the gospel down to math. Makes it easy
Re: What evidence is there that Russell M. Nelson is a true prophet, seer, and revelator?
Posted: December 18th, 2019, 3:52 pm
Personally I don't know of another Christian group on the planet that is encouraging people to find ancestors and do proxy work for them in the temple. You have made your case for why you think the temple and authority is not fruit. I disagree based on my own experiences of experimenting on the invitation to attend. I have had experiences as a result that I could never deny, case closed for me, I realize you are still trying to figure it out and sincerely hope you find what you are looking for.Stahura wrote: ↑December 18th, 2019, 2:33 pmBoth. It invites all to come unto Christ. That in and of itself is a good fruit.
I already addressed the road you're going down, I just don't know if you saw it.
You're saying that if the Book of Mormon is true, and good, because of the good results that came from applying it's teachings, then RMN must also be a prophet if there are good results that came from applying it's teachings.
Again I say, you can apply the teachings of Denver Snuffer, and other modern Christian leaders, and you will have good results. You aren't about to accept those fruits and claim that they are prophets, are you? So why does that work for RMN but not others? Is it just about Math? If you have enough Positives to outnumber the negatives then that person may be deemed a prophet?
This is what I've attempted to communicate to you multiple times. I benefited greatly by studying the words of Denver Snuffer and other Christians, but I do not accept him or them as being called of God for any mighty work by those merits alone, so I would feel dishonest if I were to accept Russell M Nelson by those same merits alone.
Surely you can't blame me for that?