LDS Freedom Forum

Connie561 wrote: ↑December 4th, 2019, 11:45 am

Mindfields wrote: ↑December 4th, 2019, 11:06 am The Family Proclamation is a policy document. There hasn't been an actual revelation from God, "thus sayeth the Lord", to the church since the death of Joseph Smith.

I respectfully disagree that everytime like a prophet gets revelation he has to say "thus sayeth the Lord". The Book of Mormon has lots of revelation that do not begin with that phrase. It is written in the style of Leviticus chapter 26. It talks about blessings and cursings. There is a warning to the World at the end of the proclamation which our church could not enforce. It is a warning straight from the Lord.

13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.

16 I also will ado this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, bconsumption, and cthe burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be aslain before your benemies: they that hate you shall creign over you; and ye shall dflee when none pursueth you.

18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will apunish you seven times more for your sins.

19 And I will break the apride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

I THE LORD GODWE, THE FIRST PRESIDENCY and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of GodME and that the family is central to the Creator’sMY plan for the eternal destiny of His MY children.

ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. ME Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parentsMINE, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

IN THE PREMORTAL REALM, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal FatherME and accepted HisMY plan by which HisMY children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of GodME and for families to be united eternally.

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT that GodI gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandmentI declare that MY Commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that GodI Declare that I have commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

WE DECLARE I Declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’sMY eternal plan.

HUSBAND AND WIFE have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

THE FAMILY is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to HisMY eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

... You get the picture

WE, THE FIRST PRESIDENCY and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim

WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn

"13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright."

Connie561 wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 8:00 am Sure Topcat! President Nelson spoke in Women's conference in 2018 about preparing us for the Lord's second coming is one of his talks. Somethings he asked us to do was step away from social media for a week. Read the Book of Mormon and underline all the scriptures about Jesus Christ. Go to the temple. So other talks by other prophets was Sabbath Day observertion. Accelerating missionary work. The newest is to home study the Come Follow Me Sunday School lessons. President Nelson states his mission is to prepare us.

The true fruit of the gospel is love. Everything we are asked to do is to love the Lord more and to love each other. I don't see how we are asked to do things that side track is from becoming a Christ like people. I know when I did my social media fast, that it changed me. I was able to see how negatively propaganda was affecting my spiritual health, causing me to get upset at others, so I would say that was very inspiring. Alma spoke of planting a seed in Alma 31. I planted a seed and it was a good seed.

I did not realize I was going to have to answer test question about will Zion be established before or after the millennium! I am feeling the pressure! I am going to have to look it up. I am hoping someone else may answer your question. I am going to visit family today so I am not going to be available for the rest of the day.

"We ought to have the building up of Zion as our greatest object."

I don't see how we are asked to do things that side track is [sic] from becoming a Christ like people.

topcat wrote: ↑December 16th, 2019, 11:20 am

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑December 16th, 2019, 10:21 am
Interesting that you bring up Laman and Lemuel, two of the biggest church appologist in scripture. Truth is everytime you post something I think of Laman and Lemuel. What sucks for them is if they had lived today they would be the perfect abiding latter day saint apologist. They could believe exactly as they did back in the day and all would be well in todays world. The problem was false traditions. They believed in everything you believe in today, and not even a angel of God could distract them from their long held false beliefs. Lamen and Lemuel followed the precieved prophets of their day, and by doing so failed to see that there crazy visionary old father was in fact a true prophet of God.

1 Nephi 17:22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words…

How dare Lehi judge the prophets and the church of God. No doubt Laman and Lemuel believe what we believe today. The difference is... our prophets (we cannot be led astray) and the church is more righteous than theirs. And what was the church busy doing during this time? Building temples. Go figure. It's also interesting that everytime Jeremiah brings up "prophets" he is always referring to false prophets. I believe Lehi's and Jeremiahs day is very reminiscent of our own, but with current beliefs we cannot even be open to that possibility.

SempiEternalHarbinger,

What undoubtedly the mainstream Mormon would feel about you likening them to Laman and Lemuel is that you are off your rocker, and talking crazy stuff. The mainstream Mormon would identify with Nephi and Lehi. They reason, if there's anything we mainstream Mormons are good at doing, it's following the prophet, so we would have followed Lehi out of Jerusalem while most all of Jerusalem rejected him. To suggest that we would have rejected Lehi is nuts!

I did a quick search and found that the word "prophets" is mentioned 42 times in the book of Jeremiah, and sure enough, the vast majority of cases it was referring to false prophets, but the people believed them! Laman and Lemuel were two that believed them.

But going back to the mainstream LDS view that they're good at "following the prophet," the question to ask would be. Would they have followed the false prophets in Jerusalem, or a true prophet in Lehi?

The fact is almost ALL rejected Lehi. On what basis did they reject Lehi, and on what basis did the people of Jerusalem follow the false prophets?

The "truth" for mainstream LDS is that they KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are not deceived and that Pres Nelson is a true prophet. With this presumption, it is nigh impossible for them to consider they might be misled, even if Jeremiah drops a bombshell like this:

I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

Jeremiah 23:14

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:33 am

topcat wrote: ↑December 16th, 2019, 11:20 am

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑December 16th, 2019, 10:21 am
Interesting that you bring up Laman and Lemuel, two of the biggest church appologist in scripture. Truth is everytime you post something I think of Laman and Lemuel. What sucks for them is if they had lived today they would be the perfect abiding latter day saint apologist. They could believe exactly as they did back in the day and all would be well in todays world. The problem was false traditions. They believed in everything you believe in today, and not even a angel of God could distract them from their long held false beliefs. Lamen and Lemuel followed the precieved prophets of their day, and by doing so failed to see that there crazy visionary old father was in fact a true prophet of God.

1 Nephi 17:22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words…

How dare Lehi judge the prophets and the church of God. No doubt Laman and Lemuel believe what we believe today. The difference is... our prophets (we cannot be led astray) and the church is more righteous than theirs. And what was the church busy doing during this time? Building temples. Go figure. It's also interesting that everytime Jeremiah brings up "prophets" he is always referring to false prophets. I believe Lehi's and Jeremiahs day is very reminiscent of our own, but with current beliefs we cannot even be open to that possibility.

SempiEternalHarbinger,

What undoubtedly the mainstream Mormon would feel about you likening them to Laman and Lemuel is that you are off your rocker, and talking crazy stuff. The mainstream Mormon would identify with Nephi and Lehi. They reason, if there's anything we mainstream Mormons are good at doing, it's following the prophet, so we would have followed Lehi out of Jerusalem while most all of Jerusalem rejected him. To suggest that we would have rejected Lehi is nuts!

I did a quick search and found that the word "prophets" is mentioned 42 times in the book of Jeremiah, and sure enough, the vast majority of cases it was referring to false prophets, but the people believed them! Laman and Lemuel were two that believed them.

But going back to the mainstream LDS view that they're good at "following the prophet," the question to ask would be. Would they have followed the false prophets in Jerusalem, or a true prophet in Lehi?

The fact is almost ALL rejected Lehi. On what basis did they reject Lehi, and on what basis did the people of Jerusalem follow the false prophets?

The "truth" for mainstream LDS is that they KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are not deceived and that Pres Nelson is a true prophet. With this presumption, it is nigh impossible for them to consider they might be misled, even if Jeremiah drops a bombshell like this:

I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

Jeremiah 23:14

That Jeremiah scripture has been on my mind since you shared it. "they strengthen also the hands of evildoers" and I believe the argument can be made this is exactly what the church is currently doing. 32 billion in the stock market and among those investments is 2.7 billion in big Pharma and some of the most lethal, deadly, powerful, and addictive drugs on earth. The amount of families that have been destroyed from this evil is tragic. But if that is not strengthening the hand of evil doers I don't know what is. The Church is also invested somewhere around $600 million in Correctional facilities which would mean the church is one of the biggest profiteers in the world of victimless crimes. Folks getting thrown in jail without infringing on another's God given right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I see now that the morals go out the door when it comes to church finances and I can't imagine this being pleasing to God. When I moved to salt lake the first thing I was told was to never mingle politics and business with religion. Which was strange because they all go together with me.

topcat wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:23 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 8:00 am Sure Topcat! President Nelson spoke in Women's conference in 2018 about preparing us for the Lord's second coming is one of his talks. Somethings he asked us to do was step away from social media for a week. Read the Book of Mormon and underline all the scriptures about Jesus Christ. Go to the temple. So other talks by other prophets was Sabbath Day observertion. Accelerating missionary work. The newest is to home study the Come Follow Me Sunday School lessons. President Nelson states his mission is to prepare us.

The true fruit of the gospel is love. Everything we are asked to do is to love the Lord more and to love each other. I don't see how we are asked to do things that side track is from becoming a Christ like people. I know when I did my social media fast, that it changed me. I was able to see how negatively propaganda was affecting my spiritual health, causing me to get upset at others, so I would say that was very inspiring. Alma spoke of planting a seed in Alma 31. I planted a seed and it was a good seed.

I did not realize I was going to have to answer test question about will Zion be established before or after the millennium! I am feeling the pressure! I am going to have to look it up. I am hoping someone else may answer your question. I am going to visit family today so I am not going to be available for the rest of the day.

Connie,

Thanks. And to Allison too (for her above comment).

I was asking for a talk by Pres Nelson where he preached about establishing Zion. This is not a simple subject. It might be an extremely important topic. We know quite a bit about Zion from just the scriptures. I am not an expert, and have lots of unanswered questions about it. I do sense that understanding what it is must be a first-step. How to establish it is an entirely different challenge, but it's a challenge that sooner or later cannot be ignored, because Jesus will be in Zion, and because I do believe that, even an incipient Zion, must be present on earth BEFORE Christ comes. There must be an invitation from below to above. There must be a people prepared else when the Lord returns the entire earth would be wasted.

All of that being said, I was curious what Pres Nelson in GC has mentioned on the subject since he became president in Jan 2018. Just how many times has he even uttered the word Zion? The answer is one time, but only to say he had some ancestors going back to the 1800's who had come to Zion.

So I went further back, looking at every talk he's ever given in GC, and he's failed to give one talk on it. In fact the word has only been mentioned 14 times total over his career, and none of those have been as a dissertation on the subject, and almost all of them occurred incidentally in scriptures he was quoting, but his subject material was not Zion.

Such a search of other general authorities would yield similar results.

So why do you think it is that Zion is basically omitted from subjects in General Conference?

It's a good question, isn't it?

I believe it's because the speaker knows it would be opening a can of worms to which he is not qualified to speak on. Any speaker who would attempt to preach on the subject realizes he would be over his head in deep water from the outset. This means that nobody will dare touch the subject even with a 10-foot pole, unless they simplistically and recklessly teach that the Church itself is Zion. In 2008, Elder Christofferson gave such a talk entitled, Come to Zion, in which he equates the Church with Zion.

I could be wrong. I've not done any serious research to confirm my gut feeling, but nobody has gone into deep discussion, and done a scripture-based sermon on the subject of Zion. The reason is that the gap between the City of Enoch (one of the two Zions) and the present-day Church is so wide that the task of narrowing the gap is so daunting that nobody feels up to the challenge. Of course, there was one, a Hugh Nibley, who dared broach the subject with diligence and great detail. But he wasn't part of the hierarchy and so doesn't "count," being that he wasn't "in authority."

Elder Christofferson quoted Joseph Smith,

"We ought to have the building up of Zion as our greatest object."

That is quite a statement!

If that's true, and perhaps it is since the Seer did say it, then might our leaders perhaps want to address it, and even make it THE purpose of their existence?

But pretty much, we don't hear a peep about Zion.

Strange? We might ask ourselves, Why the silence since it should be our "greatest object"?

Perhaps it's because we are Zion already? Have we already arrived? So then perhaps, all is well in Zion?

Why might our leaders not feel comfortable preaching on the most important subject? If there was a top 10 list of priorities, heck, let's expand it to Top 50, I don't think Zion would make the top 50. I think members generally shrug and say, "What are you talking about? The Church is Zion and everything our leaders do is to strengthen Zion (the Church). So they're talking about the subject all the time."

*************************

But back to the subject of this thread... evidence of a prophetic calling....

I see that Allison and Connie are currently under the thinking that if a man teaches something good, like do missionary work, etc. or teach anything that is currently understood from the Scriptures as being "the gospel" that that qualifies as fruit that he is a prophet.

If that is what you're saying, then I ask, couldn't anybody who teaches similarly also be considered a "prophet" too, under your standard? Or must there be something more? If so, what is it?

I think these are good questions to ask, for the seeker of truth. These are not questions that pop up in correlated Sunday School class.

Also, Connie said:

I don't see how we are asked to do things that side track is [sic] from becoming a Christ like people.

I think she meant "us" and not "is".

Two responses:

1) Why is an imitation (a man pretending to be a prophet) effective? The imitation must be LIKE Jesus.

2) What if there were things done by the imitation which DID side track us from becoming like Christ? Would that not cause you to re-think things?

I submit a couple things that dramatically cause us to get side tracked from Christ:

1) Teaching us to trust that his guidance and directions and teachings are infallible, i.e., that he cannot lead us astray. That is 100% anti Christ. Only One was perfect, not two.

2) A dominant part of the Lectures on Faith dealt with "becoming like Christ". The Lectures on Faith are scripture, even priceless revelation! So what if the imitation "prophet" struck Lectures on Faith from our canon? I testify that the removal of LoF have severely handicapped the members to become like Jesus. The very definition of salvation in the LoF has been replaced with "Follow the prophet" and he says, "Do this checklist" and "stay mainstream" or nowadays it's "stay on the covenant path".

I could name more, but these two are easily verifiable facts. OD 1 is official and taught repeatedly by leaders, and it's a fact of history that the Brethren removed the duly-approved, voted-on LoF from our scriptures. Joseph Smith vouched for them as correct and the leading items of our doctrine.


How do you feel about this? Do you agree 1) and 2) above lead us AWAY from Christ?

You see, a good imitation will look the part most of the time, but there will be defects in the costume. Discernment is not easy, but it is possible. Moroni 7 explains how to discern with 100% perfection.

Zion would be everywhere—wherever the Church is. And with that change—one of the mighty changes of the last days—we no longer think of Zion as where we are going to live; we think of it as how we are going to live.

Stahura wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:10 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑December 4th, 2019, 11:45 am

Mindfields wrote: ↑December 4th, 2019, 11:06 am The Family Proclamation is a policy document. There hasn't been an actual revelation from God, "thus sayeth the Lord", to the church since the death of Joseph Smith.

I respectfully disagree that everytime like a prophet gets revelation he has to say "thus sayeth the Lord". The Book of Mormon has lots of revelation that do not begin with that phrase. It is written in the style of Leviticus chapter 26. It talks about blessings and cursings. There is a warning to the World at the end of the proclamation which our church could not enforce. It is a warning straight from the Lord.

Lets look at Leviticus 26:

13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.

16 I also will ado this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, bconsumption, and cthe burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be aslain before your benemies: they that hate you shall creign over you; and ye shall dflee when none pursueth you.

18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will apunish you seven times more for your sins.

19 And I will break the apride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

If It was in the style of Leviticus 26 , the Proclamation would say this:

I THE LORD GODWE, THE FIRST PRESIDENCY and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of GodME and that the family is central to the Creator’sMY plan for the eternal destiny of His MY children.

ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. ME Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parentsMINE, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

IN THE PREMORTAL REALM, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal FatherME and accepted HisMY plan by which HisMY children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of GodME and for families to be united eternally.

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT that GodI gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandmentI declare that MY Commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that GodI Declare that I have commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

WE DECLARE I Declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’sMY eternal plan.

HUSBAND AND WIFE have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

THE FAMILY is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to HisMY eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

... You get the picture

WE, THE FIRST PRESIDENCY and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim

Oh, no, it was The FP and Q12

Is it God that warns us? Let see

WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn

Oh .. WE... WE again. In other words, they, not God are warning us. This is NOT in the same style as Leviticus 26.


You, and those "liking" your post know that they don't mean every revelation has to LITERALLY say the 4 words "thus sayeth the Lord".

You and those "liking" your post also know full well the difference between Leviticus Chapter 26 and the proclamation . They are not similar styles at all. Leviticus is God himself talking directly to his people, the proclamation is the Q12 and the FP talking to the people..

"13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright."

Moses , speaking to the people, relays this message, saying "I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD", or, in other words... THUS SAYETH THE LORD

To suggest that they are the same is to me is incredibly misleading, and there are those who will read this claim and assume you are correct and you will have unknowingly duped someone into beliving something that simply isn't true. I'm disappointed, but not surprised that drtanner would jump aboard and prop this claim up, as I KNOW he knows that they are not the same in any way, shape or form. He has no excuse.

topcat wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:44 am

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:33 am

topcat wrote: ↑December 16th, 2019, 11:20 am

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑December 16th, 2019, 10:21 am
Interesting that you bring up Laman and Lemuel, two of the biggest church appologist in scripture. Truth is everytime you post something I think of Laman and Lemuel. What sucks for them is if they had lived today they would be the perfect abiding latter day saint apologist. They could believe exactly as they did back in the day and all would be well in todays world. The problem was false traditions. They believed in everything you believe in today, and not even a angel of God could distract them from their long held false beliefs. Lamen and Lemuel followed the precieved prophets of their day, and by doing so failed to see that there crazy visionary old father was in fact a true prophet of God.



How dare Lehi judge the prophets and the church of God. No doubt Laman and Lemuel believe what we believe today. The difference is... our prophets (we cannot be led astray) and the church is more righteous than theirs. And what was the church busy doing during this time? Building temples. Go figure. It's also interesting that everytime Jeremiah brings up "prophets" he is always referring to false prophets. I believe Lehi's and Jeremiahs day is very reminiscent of our own, but with current beliefs we cannot even be open to that possibility.

SempiEternalHarbinger,

What undoubtedly the mainstream Mormon would feel about you likening them to Laman and Lemuel is that you are off your rocker, and talking crazy stuff. The mainstream Mormon would identify with Nephi and Lehi. They reason, if there's anything we mainstream Mormons are good at doing, it's following the prophet, so we would have followed Lehi out of Jerusalem while most all of Jerusalem rejected him. To suggest that we would have rejected Lehi is nuts!

I did a quick search and found that the word "prophets" is mentioned 42 times in the book of Jeremiah, and sure enough, the vast majority of cases it was referring to false prophets, but the people believed them! Laman and Lemuel were two that believed them.

But going back to the mainstream LDS view that they're good at "following the prophet," the question to ask would be. Would they have followed the false prophets in Jerusalem, or a true prophet in Lehi?

The fact is almost ALL rejected Lehi. On what basis did they reject Lehi, and on what basis did the people of Jerusalem follow the false prophets?

The "truth" for mainstream LDS is that they KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are not deceived and that Pres Nelson is a true prophet. With this presumption, it is nigh impossible for them to consider they might be misled, even if Jeremiah drops a bombshell like this:

I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

Jeremiah 23:14

That Jeremiah scripture has been on my mind since you shared it. "they strengthen also the hands of evildoers" and I believe the argument can be made this is exactly what the church is currently doing. 32 billion in the stock market and among those investments is 2.7 billion in big Pharma and some of the most lethal, deadly, powerful, and addictive drugs on earth. The amount of families that have been destroyed from this evil is tragic. But if that is not strengthening the hand of evil doers I don't know what is. The Church is also invested somewhere around $600 million in Correctional facilities which would mean the church is one of the biggest profiteers in the world of victimless crimes. Folks getting thrown in jail without infringing on another's God given right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I see now that the morals go out the door when it comes to church finances and I can't imagine this being pleasing to God. When I moved to salt lake the first thing I was told was to never mingle politics and business with religion. Which was strange because they all go together with me.

Wow, I didn't know about the big Pharma or the prison industrial complex link to the Church's portfolio.

Btw, looks like Pres Nelson has built up $100,000,000,000 in just one company it owns. That's 100 billion dollars in a Church-owned subsidiary and it hasn't been paying taxes. Could be the religious corruption story of the decade. Just announced yesterday by a whistleblower:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investig ... story.html

drtanner wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:54 am

Stahura wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:10 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑December 4th, 2019, 11:45 am

Mindfields wrote: ↑December 4th, 2019, 11:06 am The Family Proclamation is a policy document. There hasn't been an actual revelation from God, "thus sayeth the Lord", to the church since the death of Joseph Smith.

I respectfully disagree that everytime like a prophet gets revelation he has to say "thus sayeth the Lord". The Book of Mormon has lots of revelation that do not begin with that phrase. It is written in the style of Leviticus chapter 26. It talks about blessings and cursings. There is a warning to the World at the end of the proclamation which our church could not enforce. It is a warning straight from the Lord.

Lets look at Leviticus 26:

13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.

16 I also will ado this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, bconsumption, and cthe burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be aslain before your benemies: they that hate you shall creign over you; and ye shall dflee when none pursueth you.

18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will apunish you seven times more for your sins.

19 And I will break the apride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

If It was in the style of Leviticus 26 , the Proclamation would say this:

I THE LORD GODWE, THE FIRST PRESIDENCY and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of GodME and that the family is central to the Creator’sMY plan for the eternal destiny of His MY children.

ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. ME Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parentsMINE, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

IN THE PREMORTAL REALM, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal FatherME and accepted HisMY plan by which HisMY children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of GodME and for families to be united eternally.

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT that GodI gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandmentI declare that MY Commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that GodI Declare that I have commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

WE DECLARE I Declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’sMY eternal plan.

HUSBAND AND WIFE have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

THE FAMILY is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to HisMY eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

... You get the picture

WE, THE FIRST PRESIDENCY and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim

Oh, no, it was The FP and Q12

Is it God that warns us? Let see

WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn

Oh .. WE... WE again. In other words, they, not God are warning us. This is NOT in the same style as Leviticus 26.


You, and those "liking" your post know that they don't mean every revelation has to LITERALLY say the 4 words "thus sayeth the Lord".

You and those "liking" your post also know full well the difference between Leviticus Chapter 26 and the proclamation . They are not similar styles at all. Leviticus is God himself talking directly to his people, the proclamation is the Q12 and the FP talking to the people..

"13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright."

Moses , speaking to the people, relays this message, saying "I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD", or, in other words... THUS SAYETH THE LORD

To suggest that they are the same is to me is incredibly misleading, and there are those who will read this claim and assume you are correct and you will have unknowingly duped someone into beliving something that simply isn't true. I'm disappointed, but not surprised that drtanner would jump aboard and prop this claim up, as I KNOW he knows that they are not the same in any way, shape or form. He has no excuse.

I mean can you imagine the uproar if the brethren would have started with something like Nephi mentioning they were highly favored of the Lord and large in stature?

And just to clarify by saying you know I know is an attempt to manipulate, but just so folks know where I stand, they are the same. And I stand 100% behind the proclamation as prophetic fruit.

Let me ask you an honest question:

Do you believe President Nelson is a prophet, seer, and revelator?

Stahura wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:02 am

drtanner wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:54 am

Stahura wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:10 am

Connie561 wrote: ↑December 4th, 2019, 11:45 am

I respectfully disagree that everytime like a prophet gets revelation he has to say "thus sayeth the Lord". The Book of Mormon has lots of revelation that do not begin with that phrase. It is written in the style of Leviticus chapter 26. It talks about blessings and cursings. There is a warning to the World at the end of the proclamation which our church could not enforce. It is a warning straight from the Lord.

Lets look at Leviticus 26:

13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.

16 I also will ado this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, bconsumption, and cthe burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be aslain before your benemies: they that hate you shall creign over you; and ye shall dflee when none pursueth you.

18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will apunish you seven times more for your sins.

19 And I will break the apride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

If It was in the style of Leviticus 26 , the Proclamation would say this:

I THE LORD GODWE, THE FIRST PRESIDENCY and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of GodME and that the family is central to the Creator’sMY plan for the eternal destiny of His MY children.

ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. ME Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parentsMINE, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

IN THE PREMORTAL REALM, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal FatherME and accepted HisMY plan by which HisMY children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of GodME and for families to be united eternally.

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT that GodI gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandmentI declare that MY Commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that GodI Declare that I have commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

WE DECLARE I Declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’sMY eternal plan.

HUSBAND AND WIFE have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

THE FAMILY is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to HisMY eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

... You get the picture

WE, THE FIRST PRESIDENCY and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim

Oh, no, it was The FP and Q12

Is it God that warns us? Let see

WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn

Oh .. WE... WE again. In other words, they, not God are warning us. This is NOT in the same style as Leviticus 26.


You, and those "liking" your post know that they don't mean every revelation has to LITERALLY say the 4 words "thus sayeth the Lord".

You and those "liking" your post also know full well the difference between Leviticus Chapter 26 and the proclamation . They are not similar styles at all. Leviticus is God himself talking directly to his people, the proclamation is the Q12 and the FP talking to the people..

"13 I am the Lord your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright."

Moses , speaking to the people, relays this message, saying "I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD", or, in other words... THUS SAYETH THE LORD

To suggest that they are the same is to me is incredibly misleading, and there are those who will read this claim and assume you are correct and you will have unknowingly duped someone into beliving something that simply isn't true. I'm disappointed, but not surprised that drtanner would jump aboard and prop this claim up, as I KNOW he knows that they are not the same in any way, shape or form. He has no excuse.

I mean can you imagine the uproar if the brethren would have started with something like Nephi mentioning they were highly favored of the Lord and large in stature?

And just to clarify by saying you know I know is an attempt to manipulate, but just so folks know where I stand, they are the same. And I stand 100% behind the proclamation as prophetic fruit.

Let me ask you an honest question:

Do you believe President Nelson is a prophet, seer, and revelator?

Weird direction to go with that, "Highly Favored of the Lord" in our day would likely be something like"I've truly been blessed by the Lord", which people say all the time.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing them for not saying "Thus says the Lord", I'm only criticizing you guys for claiming that the proclamation and Leviticus are written , and I quote, " in the same style". This is an objectively, demonstrably false observation . It is not true . One is the Lord God repeatedly saying I, Me, I I I I. The other , no attempt at any point is made by the FP Q12 to portray that it is God , and not them talking.

I've answered this question many times, I've said the same thing every time. I don't know, but I like him and his teachings and his administration more than most men to occupy the position of President of the church. He's probably number 4 in my book.

SmallFarm wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:51 am I think that the actual gift of prophecy is a rare one and that we should all pray the the current presidency should receive it. Other than that we should sustain them in their callings and keep our hearts centered on Christ.

topcat wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:29 am

SmallFarm wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:51 am I think that the actual gift of prophecy is a rare one and that we should all pray the the current presidency should receive it. Other than that we should sustain them in their callings and keep our hearts centered on Christ.

SmallFarm,

I like your sentiment. Could there be somewhat of a caveat with this way of thinking?

Let's assume your sentence was uttered in the year 0. As in the the year our Lord was born, and let's say it was uttered 10 years later and then another 10 years later and then another 10 years later.

All the members of the Church have sympathy and agree with your invitation to pray for Caiaphas, the "prophet" or high priest of the Church. But then John the Baptist comes along, and then shortly afterwards Christ appears on the scene.

Now what?

The members have a predicament, don't they?

They've been praying that Caiaphas is bestowed the prophetic gifts of God. Meanwhile, a true prophet (the Baptist) and then the actual Messiah appears on the scene.

What would you have done then?

Almost all rejected Christ, a man of sorrows and despised, didn't they?

So in summary, is it fair to say pray for whatever Church leader you wish to pray for, even ones who proclaim to have the keys, but at the end of the day, we must keep an eye open for any marvelous work and a wonder the Lord may choose to do OUTSIDE the framework we envision God working within?

SmallFarm wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:33 am

topcat wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:29 am

SmallFarm wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:51 am I think that the actual gift of prophecy is a rare one and that we should all pray the the current presidency should receive it. Other than that we should sustain them in their callings and keep our hearts centered on Christ.

SmallFarm,

I like your sentiment. Could there be somewhat of a caveat with this way of thinking?

Let's assume your sentence was uttered in the year 0. As in the the year our Lord was born, and let's say it was uttered 10 years later and then another 10 years later and then another 10 years later.

All the members of the Church have sympathy and agree with your invitation to pray for Caiaphas, the "prophet" or high priest of the Church. But then John the Baptist comes along, and then shortly afterwards Christ appears on the scene.

Now what?

The members have a predicament, don't they?

They've been praying that Caiaphas is bestowed the prophetic gifts of God. Meanwhile, a true prophet (the Baptist) and then the actual Messiah appears on the scene.

What would you have done then?

Almost all rejected Christ, a man of sorrows and despised, didn't they?

So in summary, is it fair to say pray for whatever Church leader you wish to pray for, even ones who proclaim to have the keys, but at the end of the day, we must keep an eye open for any marvelous work and a wonder the Lord may choose to do OUTSIDE the framework we envision God working within?

Oh you have a true prophet then? Where is he? Show him to me.

drtanner wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:13 am

Stahura wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:02 am

drtanner wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:54 am

Stahura wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:10 am

Lets look at Leviticus 26:





If It was in the style of Leviticus 26 , the Proclamation would say this:




Oh, no, it was The FP and Q12

Is it God that warns us? Let see



Oh .. WE... WE again. In other words, they, not God are warning us. This is NOT in the same style as Leviticus 26.


You, and those "liking" your post know that they don't mean every revelation has to LITERALLY say the 4 words "thus sayeth the Lord".

You and those "liking" your post also know full well the difference between Leviticus Chapter 26 and the proclamation . They are not similar styles at all. Leviticus is God himself talking directly to his people, the proclamation is the Q12 and the FP talking to the people..



Moses , speaking to the people, relays this message, saying "I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD", or, in other words... THUS SAYETH THE LORD

To suggest that they are the same is to me is incredibly misleading, and there are those who will read this claim and assume you are correct and you will have unknowingly duped someone into beliving something that simply isn't true. I'm disappointed, but not surprised that drtanner would jump aboard and prop this claim up, as I KNOW he knows that they are not the same in any way, shape or form. He has no excuse.

I mean can you imagine the uproar if the brethren would have started with something like Nephi mentioning they were highly favored of the Lord and large in stature?

And just to clarify by saying you know I know is an attempt to manipulate, but just so folks know where I stand, they are the same. And I stand 100% behind the proclamation as prophetic fruit.

Let me ask you an honest question:

Do you believe President Nelson is a prophet, seer, and revelator?

Weird direction to go with that, "Highly Favored of the Lord" in our day would likely be something like"I've truly been blessed by the Lord", which people say all the time.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing them for not saying "Thus says the Lord", I'm only criticizing you guys for claiming that the proclamation and Leviticus are written , and I quote, " in the same style". This is an objectively, demonstrably false observation . It is not true . One is the Lord God repeatedly saying I, Me, I I I I. The other , no attempt at any point is made by the FP Q12 to portray that it is God , and not them talking.

I've answered this question many times, I've said the same thing every time. I don't know, but I like him and his teachings and his administration more than most men to occupy the position of President of the church. He's probably number 4 in my book.

I appreciate the honest answer, I don’t think I remember you saying you don’t know. Well from what I gather you are a seeker and seem to have a diamond hard resolve to find truth and a desire to help others. I pray you will find all the truth that is out there to find.

To suggest that they are the same is to me is incredibly misleading, and there are those who will read this claim and assume you are correct and you will have unknowingly duped someone into beliving something that simply isn't true. I'm disappointed, but not surprised that drtanner would jump aboard and prop this claim up, as I KNOW he knows that they are not the same in any way, shape or form. He has no excuse.

And just to clarify by saying you know I know is an attempt to manipulate, but just so folks know where I stand, they are the same. And I stand 100% behind the proclamation as prophetic fruit.

topcat wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 6:30 am Rob,

Okay, I could have been wrong about you. Texting and comments on forums are not the best form of communication. Maybe we could be friends.

I seem to recall some back and forth with you in the past that seemed decent.

By all means, write your post on Alma 30, and I will read it. I'm a pretty good student of that chapter, and appreciate much about it. It teaches us a lot.

But if you're going to ascribe evil intent to me by likening the main character to me, that's really a waste of time in that your premise is wrong.

Except in the rarest of cases, I think most people here have good intent. That would include you so I retract anything that I said that infers you have bad intent.

My end game?

I have just been participating in this thread, and I suppose my end game is to point out that no good evidence has been brought forth.

Good evidence would be something that only a prophet would qualify for.

Temples or the building of temples can't be rolled out because any business person or any Joe Blow could order the construction of one or more temples. In fact, there is a Baptist Temple not far from me. So?

Did the presence of a temple in Caiaphas' day prove him to be a true prophet?

As for the proclamation to the world, nothing new was mentioned in that document. It was all a rehash. 100% of the content of that document was a restatement.

If anything, that document is proof of gaslighting, as you have rightly observed I believe is a strategy of deception employed in spades in our institution..

In a church where members are hungry and even desperate for a published revelation, the institution TRIED to deliver a "revelation" with that document!

It wasn't a counterfeit in the Hoffman style, but it was just enough to provide something for members and fellow apostles to declare it was revelation and that the president is a prophet. The results of publishing that proclamation have been stunningly effective.

But notice that no motion was ever made for it to be inserted into our Cannon, like OD1 and OD2 were, sort of.

Notice that OD1 and OD2 do not have their own section numbers, and they are neatly separated in an organized manner as to not be confused with a Joseph Smith revelation. But they both ARE in the book!

I can only assume it has not been included, because the prediction of the institution is that many members would see through the vain attempt to canonize something that is not worthy of canonizing.

My end game is to point to Christ. He, not the so-called prophet or Brethren, saves us. It's to point out that trusting in the arm of the flesh, trusting in a man who we believe cannot lead us astray, is pure idolatry. Such trust in the wrong source damns us.

Would you agree with the content of my last paragraph above?

Even he, like Korihor, can be deceived but think he is correct, because he has repeatedly taught lies, until he verily believed they were true, and just maybe also he is under the influence of an angel of light, as Korihor was.

Actually let's take Korihor as an example to prove something. If I were to say the president of the church was a servant of Satan, and that he meets with Satan's angels and receives instruction from them, I would be hard-pressed to prove that assertion to anybody's satisfaction. In other words, I would not have the evidence to back up such a claim.

At best, I could argue that Satan is inspiring them. Aside from photographing them in satanic rituals sacrificing babies and eating their flesh and drinking their blood, the only evidence I would have of satanic influence is what they preach-- their message.

THAT -their message-- would be their fruit.

The question for all of us, the duty laid upon all of us, is to discern evil from good, and especially the evil cloaked IN good (symbolic or even literal white robes), because that is, to use your word the most insidious of all, as it leads the innocent and trusting (though they too are left without excuse) to destruction.

AZRob wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 12:08 pm

topcat wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 6:30 am Rob,

Okay, I could have been wrong about you. Texting and comments on forums are not the best form of communication. Maybe we could be friends.

I seem to recall some back and forth with you in the past that seemed decent.

By all means, write your post on Alma 30, and I will read it. I'm a pretty good student of that chapter, and appreciate much about it. It teaches us a lot.

But if you're going to ascribe evil intent to me by likening the main character to me, that's really a waste of time in that your premise is wrong.

Except in the rarest of cases, I think most people here have good intent. That would include you so I retract anything that I said that infers you have bad intent.

My end game?

I have just been participating in this thread, and I suppose my end game is to point out that no good evidence has been brought forth.

Good evidence would be something that only a prophet would qualify for.

Temples or the building of temples can't be rolled out because any business person or any Joe Blow could order the construction of one or more temples. In fact, there is a Baptist Temple not far from me. So?

Did the presence of a temple in Caiaphas' day prove him to be a true prophet?

As for the proclamation to the world, nothing new was mentioned in that document. It was all a rehash. 100% of the content of that document was a restatement.

If anything, that document is proof of gaslighting, as you have rightly observed I believe is a strategy of deception employed in spades in our institution..

In a church where members are hungry and even desperate for a published revelation, the institution TRIED to deliver a "revelation" with that document!

It wasn't a counterfeit in the Hoffman style, but it was just enough to provide something for members and fellow apostles to declare it was revelation and that the president is a prophet. The results of publishing that proclamation have been stunningly effective.

But notice that no motion was ever made for it to be inserted into our Cannon, like OD1 and OD2 were, sort of.

Notice that OD1 and OD2 do not have their own section numbers, and they are neatly separated in an organized manner as to not be confused with a Joseph Smith revelation. But they both ARE in the book!

I can only assume it has not been included, because the prediction of the institution is that many members would see through the vain attempt to canonize something that is not worthy of canonizing.

My end game is to point to Christ. He, not the so-called prophet or Brethren, saves us. It's to point out that trusting in the arm of the flesh, trusting in a man who we believe cannot lead us astray, is pure idolatry. Such trust in the wrong source damns us.

Would you agree with the content of my last paragraph above?

Even he, like Korihor, can be deceived but think he is correct, because he has repeatedly taught lies, until he verily believed they were true, and just maybe also he is under the influence of an angel of light, as Korihor was.

Actually let's take Korihor as an example to prove something. If I were to say the president of the church was a servant of Satan, and that he meets with Satan's angels and receives instruction from them, I would be hard-pressed to prove that assertion to anybody's satisfaction. In other words, I would not have the evidence to back up such a claim.

At best, I could argue that Satan is inspiring them. Aside from photographing them in satanic rituals sacrificing babies and eating their flesh and drinking their blood, the only evidence I would have of satanic influence is what they preach-- their message.

THAT -their message-- would be their fruit.

The question for all of us, the duty laid upon all of us, is to discern evil from good, and especially the evil cloaked IN good (symbolic or even literal white robes), because that is, to use your word the most insidious of all, as it leads the innocent and trusting (though they too are left without excuse) to destruction.

Thanks, topcat. This world is a big place and there is room for a lot of viewpoints. I appreciate your thoughtful responses. After reading more about what you believe, it's going to be a complex undertaking to compare you to Alma 30. Perhaps too complex for the masses, and too complex for me. After all, I'm just a guy who can read and write. I'm not an author of big books. To paint a fair picture I'll need a bunch of comparisons and several contrasts so it's going to take me a couple of weeks. Your belief in Jesus Christ makes you a lot like most other people here (including myself). You also have some nontraditional views. At the end, to either an insider or outsider you'll probably appear like all of us - a lot of good and some character flaws as well.

Truth be told, my originally intended research project on this forum was going to be to write a Wiki-style article on Michael Sherwin. He has a wild story that many people would be interested in if I built it properly.

I'm actually hard-pressed to disagree with some of your opinions. Based on a combination of history I've read and my opinion, I think the Proclamation was a policy statement to the world and a line in the sand and it was admitted to be such. With information I have now, I could craft a statement like it but 20+ years farther so that it accounts for the changes in the world. It could have been inspired, but inspiration wasn't necessary. I can't disagree that nobody will dispel the notion that the Proclamation was inspired revelation but at the same time no leaders attempt to canonize it. The Proclamation is stuck in a nebulous squishy gray zone where it means all things to all people. To my way of thinking, it doesn't qualify as gaslighting, but rather trying to have your cake and eat it too.

I'm not a super trusting guy deep down inside. I like "trust but verify." The arm of the flesh is weak and not to be trusted. My hypothetical question to fellow members would be something like the following: What if there was a split and the President of the Church and three apostles came down on one side and eleven apostles on the other side? To "follow the prophet" is not enough if there are fifteen prophets who are not unanimous. At that point, one must hope that the oil in one's lamp is sufficient to meet the bridegroom. In any case, if you have the Holy Ghost as your guide to point you to Christ you will do well.

As to the white robes, you may have some scriptural backing. 1 Nephi 8 shows Lehi led by a man in a white robe. Lehi ends up in a dark wasteland and the robed man disappears (I think). I'm not sure what to make of the whole encounter but your talk of white robes rang a bell for me.

Stahura wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:42 am

drtanner wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:13 am

Stahura wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:02 am

drtanner wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:54 am

I mean can you imagine the uproar if the brethren would have started with something like Nephi mentioning they were highly favored of the Lord and large in stature?

And just to clarify by saying you know I know is an attempt to manipulate, but just so folks know where I stand, they are the same. And I stand 100% behind the proclamation as prophetic fruit.

Let me ask you an honest question:

Do you believe President Nelson is a prophet, seer, and revelator?

Weird direction to go with that, "Highly Favored of the Lord" in our day would likely be something like"I've truly been blessed by the Lord", which people say all the time.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing them for not saying "Thus says the Lord", I'm only criticizing you guys for claiming that the proclamation and Leviticus are written , and I quote, " in the same style". This is an objectively, demonstrably false observation . It is not true . One is the Lord God repeatedly saying I, Me, I I I I. The other , no attempt at any point is made by the FP Q12 to portray that it is God , and not them talking.

I've answered this question many times, I've said the same thing every time. I don't know, but I like him and his teachings and his administration more than most men to occupy the position of President of the church. He's probably number 4 in my book.

I appreciate the honest answer, I don’t think I remember you saying you don’t know. Well from what I gather you are a seeker and seem to have a diamond hard resolve to find truth and a desire to help others. I pray you will find all the truth that is out there to find.

I appreciate it, crossing my fingers . Let's pick back up the other chat, I asked clarification about the temple / keys question .

topcat wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:38 am

SmallFarm wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:33 am

topcat wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:29 am

SmallFarm wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:51 am I think that the actual gift of prophecy is a rare one and that we should all pray the the current presidency should receive it. Other than that we should sustain them in their callings and keep our hearts centered on Christ.

SmallFarm,

I like your sentiment. Could there be somewhat of a caveat with this way of thinking?

Let's assume your sentence was uttered in the year 0. As in the the year our Lord was born, and let's say it was uttered 10 years later and then another 10 years later and then another 10 years later.

All the members of the Church have sympathy and agree with your invitation to pray for Caiaphas, the "prophet" or high priest of the Church. But then John the Baptist comes along, and then shortly afterwards Christ appears on the scene.

Now what?

The members have a predicament, don't they?

They've been praying that Caiaphas is bestowed the prophetic gifts of God. Meanwhile, a true prophet (the Baptist) and then the actual Messiah appears on the scene.

What would you have done then?

Almost all rejected Christ, a man of sorrows and despised, didn't they?

So in summary, is it fair to say pray for whatever Church leader you wish to pray for, even ones who proclaim to have the keys, but at the end of the day, we must keep an eye open for any marvelous work and a wonder the Lord may choose to do OUTSIDE the framework we envision God working within?

Oh you have a true prophet then? Where is he? Show him to me.

Ha, for you to discover. ...Like Jesus says, do you hear it? The wind is blowing outside, and where it goes you really can't predict.

God works as He wishes, just as the wind blows wherever it blows. We better be open minded. That's all I'm saying for now.

SmallFarm wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 12:37 pm

topcat wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:38 am

SmallFarm wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:33 am

topcat wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:29 am

SmallFarm,

I like your sentiment. Could there be somewhat of a caveat with this way of thinking?

Let's assume your sentence was uttered in the year 0. As in the the year our Lord was born, and let's say it was uttered 10 years later and then another 10 years later and then another 10 years later.

All the members of the Church have sympathy and agree with your invitation to pray for Caiaphas, the "prophet" or high priest of the Church. But then John the Baptist comes along, and then shortly afterwards Christ appears on the scene.

Now what?

The members have a predicament, don't they?

They've been praying that Caiaphas is bestowed the prophetic gifts of God. Meanwhile, a true prophet (the Baptist) and then the actual Messiah appears on the scene.

What would you have done then?

Almost all rejected Christ, a man of sorrows and despised, didn't they?

So in summary, is it fair to say pray for whatever Church leader you wish to pray for, even ones who proclaim to have the keys, but at the end of the day, we must keep an eye open for any marvelous work and a wonder the Lord may choose to do OUTSIDE the framework we envision God working within?

Oh you have a true prophet then? Where is he? Show him to me.

Ha, for you to discover. ...Like Jesus says, do you hear it? The wind is blowing outside, and where it goes you really can't predict.

God works as He wishes, just as the wind blows wherever it blows. We better be open minded. That's all I'm saying for now.

/yawn

drtanner wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 12:33 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:42 am

drtanner wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:13 am

Stahura wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 11:02 am

Weird direction to go with that, "Highly Favored of the Lord" in our day would likely be something like"I've truly been blessed by the Lord", which people say all the time.

To be clear, I'm not criticizing them for not saying "Thus says the Lord", I'm only criticizing you guys for claiming that the proclamation and Leviticus are written , and I quote, " in the same style". This is an objectively, demonstrably false observation . It is not true . One is the Lord God repeatedly saying I, Me, I I I I. The other , no attempt at any point is made by the FP Q12 to portray that it is God , and not them talking.

I've answered this question many times, I've said the same thing every time. I don't know, but I like him and his teachings and his administration more than most men to occupy the position of President of the church. He's probably number 4 in my book.

I appreciate the honest answer, I don’t think I remember you saying you don’t know. Well from what I gather you are a seeker and seem to have a diamond hard resolve to find truth and a desire to help others. I pray you will find all the truth that is out there to find.

I appreciate it, crossing my fingers . Let's pick back up the other chat, I asked clarification about the temple / keys question .

I answered above, both.

SmallFarm wrote: ↑December 17th, 2019, 10:51 am I think that the actual gift of prophecy is a rare one and that we should all pray the the current presidency should receive it. Other than that we should sustain them in their callings and keep our hearts centered on Christ.