Page 1 of 1

More fulfilled prophesy, "...will be in South Carolina" D&C 130:12

Posted: November 22nd, 2019, 8:10 pm
by kirtland r.m.
The bloodiest four years in American history began when Confederate shore batteries under General P.G.T. Beauregard would open fire on Union-held Fort Sumter in South Carolina’s Charleston Bay. During the next 34 hours, 50 Confederate guns and mortars launched more than 4,000 rounds at the poorly supplied fort. On April 13, U.S. Major Robert Anderson surrendered the fort. Two days later, U.S. President Abraham Lincoln issued a proclamation calling for 75,000 volunteer soldiers to quell the Southern “insurrection.”https://www.history.com/this-day-in-his ... war-begins

Items of instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843, D&C 130:12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.

A month following the artillery rounds fired at Fort Sumter, South Carolina, signaling the start to the Civil War, the Philadelphia Sunday Mercury remarked, "We have in our possession a pamphlet, published at Liverpool, in 1851, containing a selection from the ‘revelations, translations and narrations’ of Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism.” Citing what is now Doctrine and Covenants 87, the paper continued, “The following prophecy is here said to have been made by Smith, on the 25th of December, 1832. In view of our present troubles, this prediction seems to be in progress of fulfillment, whether Joe Smith was a humbug or not.” Though early in the war’s advancement, the paper nevertheless speculated about the prophecy, concluding, “The war began in South Carolina. Insurrections of slaves are already dreaded. Famine will certainly afflict some Southern communities. The interference of Great Britain, on account of the want of cotton, is not improbable, if the war is protracted. In the meantime, a general war in Europe appears to be imminent. Have we not had a prophet among us?' Philadelphia Sunday Mercury, May 5, 1861

And then there is this. I have seen an original copy of it. Orson Hyde speaks of the twentieth century. In May 1862, at the beginning of the Civil War, in correlation with Joseph Smith's prophecy on Civil War, Orson Hyde, the apostle who dedicated the land of Palestine for the return of the Jews, made a startling prediction which has been literally fulfilled in the next century. He stated: "You have scarcely yet read the preface of your national troubles. Many nations will be drawn into the American maelstrom that now whirls through the land; and after many days, when the demon of war shall have exhausted his strength and madness upon American soil, by the destruction of all that can court or provoke opposition, excite cupidity, inspire revenge, or feed ambition, he will remove his headquarters to the banks of the Rhine.” (Orson Hyde, Millennial Star XXIV, p 274. May 1862.)

Re: More fulfilled prophesy, "...will be in South Carolina" D&C 130:12

Posted: November 22nd, 2019, 9:04 pm
by hedgehog
Interesting. Thanks for putting those quotes together.

2 thoughts.

1. IIRC institute manuals had some references to this mentioning it was not yet totality fulfilled, sounding like there was still more uprising of the slaves to come. Have thought back on that often how it could be further fulfilled. Tax slaves. Chinese labor slaves that produce our trinkets. Descendants of slaves. etc.

2. Also, I try to put myself in the shoes of the era this was given, where ordinary life on the other side of a civil war seemed impossible and would inevitably soon lead to the second coming. As did the rise of the first and second world war seemed impossible to not usher in the second coming. Yet here we are most of century beyond. Point being could there be ww3/civil war ahead and yet we still get on the other side of it pre-second coming?

Personally I get the impression that the second coming wont happen until humanity is ready to admit total defeat in our ability to govern ourselves and resist institutionalized evil regardless of the forms of governments, economies, or groups in charge. At that point we are finally ready to submit to his his way. Not until we faithful have permanently chosen to reject the worlds approval and fully choose him. That he will not attempt to build his millenium on top of an undecided people.

Re: More fulfilled prophesy, "...will be in South Carolina" D&C 130:12

Posted: November 22nd, 2019, 9:34 pm
by mahalanobis
kirtland r.m. wrote: November 22nd, 2019, 8:10 pm The bloodiest four years in American history began when Confederate shore batteries under General P.G.T. Beauregard would open fire on Union-held Fort Sumter in South Carolina’s Charleston Bay. During the next 34 hours, 50 Confederate guns and mortars launched more than 4,000 rounds at the poorly supplied fort. On April 13, U.S. Major Robert Anderson surrendered the fort. Two days later, U.S. President Abraham Lincoln issued a proclamation calling for 75,000 volunteer soldiers to quell the Southern “insurrection.”https://www.history.com/this-day-in-his ... war-begins

Items of instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843, D&C 130:12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.

A month following the artillery rounds fired at Fort Sumter, South Carolina, signaling the start to the Civil War, the Philadelphia Sunday Mercury remarked, "We have in our possession a pamphlet, published at Liverpool, in 1851, containing a selection from the ‘revelations, translations and narrations’ of Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism.” Citing what is now Doctrine and Covenants 87, the paper continued, “The following prophecy is here said to have been made by Smith, on the 25th of December, 1832. In view of our present troubles, this prediction seems to be in progress of fulfillment, whether Joe Smith was a humbug or not.” Though early in the war’s advancement, the paper nevertheless speculated about the prophecy, concluding, “The war began in South Carolina. Insurrections of slaves are already dreaded. Famine will certainly afflict some Southern communities. The interference of Great Britain, on account of the want of cotton, is not improbable, if the war is protracted. In the meantime, a general war in Europe appears to be imminent. Have we not had a prophet among us?' Philadelphia Sunday Mercury, May 5, 1861

And then there is this. I have seen an original copy of it. Orson Hyde speaks of the twentieth century. In May 1862, at the beginning of the Civil War, in correlation with Joseph Smith's prophecy on Civil War, Orson Hyde, the apostle who dedicated the land of Palestine for the return of the Jews, made a startling prediction which has been literally fulfilled in the next century. He stated: "You have scarcely yet read the preface of your national troubles. Many nations will be drawn into the American maelstrom that now whirls through the land; and after many days, when the demon of war shall have exhausted his strength and madness upon American soil, by the destruction of all that can court or provoke opposition, excite cupidity, inspire revenge, or feed ambition, he will remove his headquarters to the banks of the Rhine.” (Orson Hyde, Millennial Star XXIV, p 274. May 1862.)
And after the Rhine, where did the demon of war establish headquarters after that?

And where is it now?

Re: More fulfilled prophesy, "...will be in South Carolina" D&C 130:12

Posted: November 22nd, 2019, 11:10 pm
by LDS Watchman
One interesting fact about this revelation is that it was given during the nullification crisis in 1832 when South Carolina was threatening to secede from the union over slavery and President Andrew Jackson crushed them.

It would seem that this crisis sparked the revelation. Joseph didn't just pull it out of thin air at random.

Still it's pretty incredible that his prophecy was mostly fulfilled with the Civil War 40 years later. The last part hasn't been fully fulfilled yet.

Re: More fulfilled prophesy, "...will be in South Carolina" D&C 130:12

Posted: November 23rd, 2019, 2:13 am
by Robin Hood
A careful reading of the prophecy describes the world wars, and very specifically Great Britains involvement.

Re: More fulfilled prophesy, "...will be in South Carolina" D&C 130:12

Posted: November 23rd, 2019, 7:39 am
by BruceRGilbert
Because "prophecy" and "history" tend to be "cyclic," I suspect that we should witness South Carolina at the forefront of the next civil war that will begin the consumption decreed or the desolation of abominations, making an end to all nations.

Re: More fulfilled prophesy, "...will be in South Carolina" D&C 130:12

Posted: November 23rd, 2019, 1:23 pm
by kirtland r.m.
Matthias wrote: November 22nd, 2019, 11:10 pm One interesting fact about this revelation is that it was given during the nullification crisis in 1832 when South Carolina was threatening to secede from the union over slavery and President Andrew Jackson crushed them.

It would seem that this crisis sparked the revelation. Joseph didn't just pull it out of thin air at random.

Still it's pretty incredible that his prophecy was mostly fulfilled with the Civil War 40 years later. The last part hasn't been fully fulfilled yet.
Something very interesting is that Section 87 was given as you say, in 1832. Here is the revelation heading.
Revelation and prophecy on war, given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at or near Kirtland, Ohio, December 25, 1832. At this time disputes in the United States over slavery and South Carolina’s nullification of federal tariffs were prevalent. Joseph Smith’s history states that “appearances of troubles among the nations” were becoming “more visible” to the Prophet “than they had previously been since the Church began her journey out of the wilderness.”

However, the quote I put up this time, is from Items of instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843, D&C 130:12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.

It seems Joseph is speaking of yet future South Carolina, and the direct outbreak of the war at Charleston Bay, "commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina." This is extremely impressive, and along with the last part of the o.p. concerning Germany, is mind mindbogglingly accurate. This information alone, should scare the "hell" literally right of apostates and anyone else who seeks to kick against the pricks, yet we have been blessed with volumes more.

Re: More fulfilled prophesy, "...will be in South Carolina" D&C 130:12

Posted: November 23rd, 2019, 5:00 pm
by LDS Watchman
kirtland r.m. wrote: November 23rd, 2019, 1:23 pm
Matthias wrote: November 22nd, 2019, 11:10 pm One interesting fact about this revelation is that it was given during the nullification crisis in 1832 when South Carolina was threatening to secede from the union over slavery and President Andrew Jackson crushed them.

It would seem that this crisis sparked the revelation. Joseph didn't just pull it out of thin air at random.

Still it's pretty incredible that his prophecy was mostly fulfilled with the Civil War 40 years later. The last part hasn't been fully fulfilled yet.
Something very interesting is that Section 87 was given as you say, in 1832. Here is the revelation heading.
Revelation and prophecy on war, given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at or near Kirtland, Ohio, December 25, 1832. At this time disputes in the United States over slavery and South Carolina’s nullification of federal tariffs were prevalent. Joseph Smith’s history states that “appearances of troubles among the nations” were becoming “more visible” to the Prophet “than they had previously been since the Church began her journey out of the wilderness.”

However, the quote I put up this time, is from Items of instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843, D&C 130:12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.

It seems Joseph is speaking of yet future South Carolina, and the direct outbreak of the war at Charleston Bay, "commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina." This is extremely impressive, and along with the last part of the o.p. concerning Germany, is mind mindbogglingly accurate. This information alone, should scare the "hell" literally right of apostates and anyone else who seeks to kick against the pricks, yet we have been blessed with volumes more.
I consider D&C 130:12 to be an allusion by the prophet to his prior revelation in D&C 87. It looks like the exact same revelation to me. I think with another 11 years having passed, he could see that the fulfillment of the earlier revelation was nearing.

Re: More fulfilled prophesy, "...will be in South Carolina" D&C 130:12

Posted: November 23rd, 2019, 11:36 pm
by hedgehog
kirtland r.m. wrote: November 22nd, 2019, 8:10 pm
Items of instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843, D&C 130:12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.
Re the dates/Math involved. If I understand correctly:

SECTION 130
Instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843.

Battle of Fort Sumter April 12–13, 1861

18 years. Interesting. :Now I am curious of other such examples, like how long the time gap was between Christ warning of Rome attacking Jerusalem and it actually happening.

Re: More fulfilled prophesy, "...will be in South Carolina" D&C 130:12

Posted: November 24th, 2019, 6:26 am
by LDS Watchman
hedgehog wrote: November 23rd, 2019, 11:36 pm
kirtland r.m. wrote: November 22nd, 2019, 8:10 pm
Items of instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843, D&C 130:12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.
Re the dates/Math involved. If I understand correctly:

SECTION 130
Instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843.

Battle of Fort Sumter April 12–13, 1861

18 years. Interesting. :Now I am curious of other such examples, like how long the time gap was between Christ warning of Rome attacking Jerusalem and it actually happening.
The Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. Christ prophesied that Jerusalem would be destroyed about 33 AD.

So that 37 years.

Joseph Smith's prophecy was in 1832 originally. That would make about 29 years until the Civil War.

Christ's prophecy of the destruction of the Holy city is actually a dual prophecy, however. A careful reading of Mathew 24 from the Joseph Smith Translation makes this clear. So the first part of the prophecy was fulfilled in less than 40 years, while the last part was about 2000 years out

The prophesies of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and the 12 minor prophets are the same thing. They were fulfilled anciently with the destruction and dispersion of the northern kingdom of Israel by Assyria and the destruction of Jerusalem and the captivity of the Jews by Babylon.

In the last days these prophesies will have their ultimate fulfillment with modern Israel.

Who is modern Israel?

Re: More fulfilled prophesy, "...will be in South Carolina" D&C 130:12

Posted: November 24th, 2019, 4:03 pm
by hedgehog
Matthias wrote: November 24th, 2019, 6:26 am
hedgehog wrote: November 23rd, 2019, 11:36 pm
kirtland r.m. wrote: November 22nd, 2019, 8:10 pm
Items of instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843, D&C 130:12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.
Re the dates/Math involved. If I understand correctly:

SECTION 130
Instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843.

Battle of Fort Sumter April 12–13, 1861

18 years. Interesting. :Now I am curious of other such examples, like how long the time gap was between Christ warning of Rome attacking Jerusalem and it actually happening.
The Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. Christ prophesied that Jerusalem would be destroyed about 33 AD.

So that 37 years.

Joseph Smith's prophecy was in 1832 originally. That would make about 29 years until the Civil War.

Christ's prophecy of the destruction of the Holy city is actually a dual prophecy, however. A careful reading of Mathew 24 from the Joseph Smith Translation makes this clear. So the first part of the prophecy was fulfilled in less than 40 years, while the last part was about 2000 years out

The prophesies of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and the 12 minor prophets are the same thing. They were fulfilled anciently with the destruction and dispersion of the northern kingdom of Israel by Assyria and the destruction of Jerusalem and the captivity of the Jews by Babylon.

In the last days these prophesies will have their ultimate fulfillment with modern Israel.

Who is modern Israel?
Awesome thanks! All great examples. Not to get in the weeds but my understanding is those same battles against Jerusalem and new Jerusalem will be repeated again at the end of the millennium.

To answer your provicative question as best I can, we do tend to think of "Israel" as Israeli Jews or us. I think looking at the different groups of Israel reveals a fascinating bigger picture of the Lord's plans for last days.


Jerusalem will be in the hands of Judah. Who I suspect will be more so made up of Mizrahai and possibly Sephardic jews. I am skeptical the ahskenazi Jews currently running the knessset, IMF, Western news media, and Hollywood are going to be the rock the future is built on but it I could be wrong. How they would get from their current state to that state would needs be a messy affair. Eventually those survivors will administer the worlds spiritual laws from old Jerusalem.

New Jerusalem will be in the hands of Joseph i.e. Ephraim and Manasseh. We will administer the worlds temporal laws of freedom and economics.

The other 10 tribes are more of a wild card. As to who, what, when, where, and why, they will appear, and what their responsibilities during the millennium we have minimal information on. Those we bring in among us now are a remnant but eventually the heads of those 10 tribes will appear from the North with power over 8ce to walk across water and new scriptures that reveal their accounts if Christ's post crucification visitation.

Those being the 3 groups of Israel the Lord will prepare and sift to then lead the worlds remainders into his great millennium of rule.

Re: More fulfilled prophesy, "...will be in South Carolina" D&C 130:12

Posted: November 24th, 2019, 11:24 pm
by LDS Watchman
hedgehog wrote: November 24th, 2019, 4:03 pm
Matthias wrote: November 24th, 2019, 6:26 am
hedgehog wrote: November 23rd, 2019, 11:36 pm
kirtland r.m. wrote: November 22nd, 2019, 8:10 pm
Items of instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843, D&C 130:12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.
Re the dates/Math involved. If I understand correctly:

SECTION 130
Instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843.

Battle of Fort Sumter April 12–13, 1861

18 years. Interesting. :Now I am curious of other such examples, like how long the time gap was between Christ warning of Rome attacking Jerusalem and it actually happening.
The Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. Christ prophesied that Jerusalem would be destroyed about 33 AD.

So that 37 years.

Joseph Smith's prophecy was in 1832 originally. That would make about 29 years until the Civil War.

Christ's prophecy of the destruction of the Holy city is actually a dual prophecy, however. A careful reading of Mathew 24 from the Joseph Smith Translation makes this clear. So the first part of the prophecy was fulfilled in less than 40 years, while the last part was about 2000 years out

The prophesies of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and the 12 minor prophets are the same thing. They were fulfilled anciently with the destruction and dispersion of the northern kingdom of Israel by Assyria and the destruction of Jerusalem and the captivity of the Jews by Babylon.

In the last days these prophesies will have their ultimate fulfillment with modern Israel.

Who is modern Israel?
Awesome thanks! All great examples. Not to get in the weeds but my understanding is those same battles against Jerusalem and new Jerusalem will be repeated again at the end of the millennium.

To answer your provicative question as best I can, we do tend to think of "Israel" as Israeli Jews or us. I think looking at the different groups of Israel reveals a fascinating bigger picture of the Lord's plans for last days.


Jerusalem will be in the hands of Judah. Who I suspect will be more so made up of Mizrahai and possibly Sephardic jews. I am skeptical the ahskenazi Jews currently running the knessset, IMF, Western news media, and Hollywood are going to be the rock the future is built on but it I could be wrong. How they would get from their current state to that state would needs be a messy affair. Eventually those survivors will administer the worlds spiritual laws from old Jerusalem.

New Jerusalem will be in the hands of Joseph i.e. Ephraim and Manasseh. We will administer the worlds temporal laws of freedom and economics.

The other 10 tribes are more of a wild card. As to who, what, when, where, and why, they will appear, and what their responsibilities during the millennium we have minimal information on. Those we bring in among us now are a remnant but eventually the heads of those 10 tribes will appear from the North with power over 8ce to walk across water and new scriptures that reveal their accounts if Christ's post crucification visitation.

Those being the 3 groups of Israel the Lord will prepare and sift to then lead the worlds remainders into his great millennium of rule.
Yes there are 3 groups of Israel in the last days.

There's Ephraim (the Church), Judah (state of Israel in Palestine), and the lost 10 tribes.

All of the ancient prophecies in the scriptures show that Ephraim and Judah will be destroyed and led into captivity before the final gathering of all 12 tribes of Israel to Zion.

A righteous remnant will be gathered out of Ephraim before the destruction and captivity of the rest of the Church. This group will gather the rest of Israel and together Zion will be established.

That's a simplified version of what will happen according to the scriptures.