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Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 24th, 2008, 11:15 am
by bobhenstra
Gold and silver will be worthless! Invest in food, how much gold will it take to buy your food storage from you? What's your last packets of seeds worth, your last 5 gallon can of honey, how many gold or silver coins will it take to get those things from you?

Honey will pretty much last forever. We have honey in 5 gallon cans that have been in our storage for 40 years. It's still good. About a year ago while cleaning around our storage I dropped one of those cans and it burst open, we saved pretty much all of it in mason jars, it's still good honey, even after 40 years. If we have to trade honey for something else, we, like Grandpa and his eggs, will get much more for a quart of honey then we would a quart of gold coins.

Invest in honey! However, you might be able to make bullets out of your gold and silver! Just a thought------

Bob

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 24th, 2008, 11:47 am
by Spence
Probably smart. You can always expand your self reliance. But we are also supposed to keep a rainy day fund as the church counsels once we build our food storage. Might as well keep that rainy day fun in Silver Coins, or Gold if you can afford it.

I would however, go beyond the general years counsel and get 7 years of wheat. If we see wheat failures it probably will last for 3-6 years. Which could make a years supply valuable, but a 7 years supply more.

Who knows when that day will come when we have famines abound and wheat is worth it's weight in gold.

Probably wise to get a chicken coop, some honey bee, fruit trees and a large garden before you turn your money into coins.

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 24th, 2008, 1:23 pm
by cwass
I understand where Bob is coming from and it is hard logic to argue with as I feel time is in short supply before the Saviour comes and gold may or may not be worthless....but if you have a good supply of food and you want to keep your money somewhere, then gold is not a bad option..as long as you take delivery of it...

I know folks who never invested a cent in the market over the past thirty years because they were sure that time was short...in the 70's for example...Inflation took much of their savings...it never took their food storage but who knows how much of that food is good 36 years later...You never know when having some gold or silver will be a good thing but I don't imagine it will be a bad thing to have as a form of currency when things get back to closer to normal times after a cleansing...I imagine that most of us have no idea what the world will be like exactly at that time but people have always traded and bought and sold for their needs...
of course if we are living the higher law at that time then maybe gold will not be necessary...who knows...Bob?

i hail from just outside of the beautiful city of Roanoke, VA....and pay my taxes.....
but that brings up another thought...that being I keep hearing that people are predicting tax revolts and rioting in general in 2009...Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 24th, 2008, 9:12 pm
by bobhenstra
3rd Nephi after the earthquake (chapter 8, [April 1st 33 AD]) For three hundred years gold had no value.

Bob

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 26th, 2008, 10:30 am
by Oldemandalton
Bob, when our dollar becomes worthless what are you going to barter/purchase with? If I had gold/silver/trade goods I would rather use them than my food storage or ammo to purchase something that would help my family, such as medication, fuel, or as a payment/bribe to get past a check point. I understand that gold/silver has no intrinsic value. I do believe that once we have a year’s supply of ALL needed items we should have something on hand to trade or barter with, be it precious metals or some type of trade goods as I mentioned in the above post. Precious metals are a good bartering tool since they are less bulking and lighter than the equivalent in trade goods. I my self am still using my extra cash in preparing for the “needful things” so have not bought gold/silver as yet. I’ll probably go with some trade goods first then as I build up my “needful things” then I will buy precious metals in coin form so that they are in an easily tradable form.

Happy New Year Everyone :)
Old Man

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 26th, 2008, 1:01 pm
by p51-mustang
Food will be a great barter item. Go read the story of Joseph in egypt? What did he do with all that surplus grain? He traded labor, livestock and land for grain and because of that egypt became very wealthy. Honey, grain, oils, etc will be very valuable at some point and you can barter or bribe someone with it! Store extra food just for the purpose of bartering.

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 26th, 2008, 2:05 pm
by bobhenstra
Jo and I long ago made sure that there would be little need for "us" to have to barter. However, we understood there'd be some unseen need raise it's ugly head forcing a need to barter. For example, if one of us needed medical care, somewhat more then we were able to handle, we "might" barter honey for that care. (There are several nurses in our small town, we know them well), but honey will always be in great demand, as will cooking oil. So we purchased 50 cans of honey in number ten cans for that purpose, we have 6 gallons of cooking oil in our freezer. There is a dairy down the street about 1/4 of a mile, for fresh milk we might barter something else. But honey and cooking oil will hold its value, it'll always be worth much more then anything else, including gold and silver.

However I see nothing wrong with have a years supply of house payments available. If creditors won't take US currency, they won't take my home! And therein lies the rub. Say I owned $30,000 to a bank and they decided not to take US currency, what then could they take?? Not my gold, not my silver, I don’t have any (that they know about) its currency or nothing! You want my food? Tough! You’ll need a bigger army!

Its going to take a fair sized force to get me out of my home. I'll make it very clear that I'm willing to die to keep it, are you ( the crooks) willing to die to take it? Because I have military, survival and martial arts training, and I'm well armed, I'm confident the other guys would be the ones in trouble. If not, then I'm with Jo again! Actually, I can't lose! And taking some of the rascals with me might make it easier on somebody else!

Bob

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 26th, 2008, 2:51 pm
by p51-mustang
Gotta love your tenacity Bob! :D

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 26th, 2008, 2:52 pm
by WYp8riot
Oldemandalton wrote:Bob, when our dollar becomes worthless what are you going to barter/purchase with? If I had gold/silver/trade goods I would rather use them than my food storage or ammo to purchase something that would help my family, such as medication, fuel, or as a payment/bribe to get past a check point. I understand that gold/silver has no intrinsic value. I do believe that once we have a year’s supply of ALL needed items we should have something on hand to trade or barter with, be it precious metals or some type of trade goods as I mentioned in the above post. Precious metals are a good bartering tool since they are less bulking and lighter than the equivalent in trade goods. I my self am still using my extra cash in preparing for the “needful things” so have not bought gold/silver as yet. I’ll probably go with some trade goods first then as I build up my “needful things” then I will buy precious metals in coin form so that they are in an easily tradable form.

Happy New Year Everyone :)
Old Man
When food shortage comes people will gladly accept food for anything, will they not. I am with Bob on this one. If people are starving they will give you gold or silver for food. And the prophecy state wheat will become worth its weight in gold. Gold would have to be of little value or food shortage so abd that wheat is of equal value. It is cheaper now to invest in extra food. However I don't see anything wrong with having some precious metals in addition if you can. I would prefer silver because I think it would have some other benefits and could be put in the water etc. Silverware may be good to have.

-Paul

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 26th, 2008, 2:53 pm
by p51-mustang
Bob, I have lots of oil but little honey. You are right, that stuff is valuable. It just keeps going up in price and in a crisis it will be way more valuable than gold. I'm thinkin I will get more honey.

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 26th, 2008, 11:37 pm
by gruden
bobhenstra wrote: However I see nothing wrong with have a years supply of house payments available. If creditors won't take US currency, they won't take my home! And therein lies the rub. Say I owned $30,000 to a bank and they decided not to take US currency, what then could they take?? Not my gold, not my silver, I don’t have any (that they know about) its currency or nothing! You want my food? Tough! You’ll need a bigger army!
Bob
Truth is, they don't have to accept anything short of full payment if they wanted to foreclose on you. Virtually all mortgages give the lender the right to demand full payment, and if the borrower can't do that, then foreclosure. My wife's great-grandmother came into this very situation during the Great Depression. Someone wanted the property and was prepared to pay cash for it. Rather than deal with the uncertainty of the current residents' continued ability to pay, they demanded full payment and then foreclosed to sell it to the new buyer. Typically this isn't in the banks' best interest so this is rarely done, but that doesn't mean it couldn't.

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 26th, 2008, 11:57 pm
by gruden
English Saint wrote:
DrJones wrote:Good point, English Saint:
If the state confiscates precious metals, then I'll be burying it. In fact, I'd rather throw it into the sea than hand it over to the Gadiantons.
Question: do you think the system will be stable until April 15th, 2009?
(ie, will folks be paying their taxes if they wait till then?)
I get the distinct feeling that 2009 will be a year unlike any we've experienced before. There have already been a number of household names that have gone into adminstration in Britain during the last week or so. The media is saying that many more are expected to go under in the New Year. I've been surprised to see some long established businesses boarded up when driving through town ths week - car dealerships etc.
Yes, I've been of the opinion for much of the year that 2009 would be a big descent. Not sure where things will be at on 4/15, but I think the bottom will drop out spring to early summer timeframe. I've been wondering about where things would stand with taxes. If anyone knows more, please post! All I can say if you don't have your food storage by the time spring rolls around, good luck.
English Saint wrote:I wonder if we will see a final surge of baptisms during 2009 as people lose their jobs and homes?
If people haven't done it by now, why start just because they lost their jobs? I'm sure they'd be happy to demand food from us, though.

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 27th, 2008, 12:30 pm
by Proud 2b Peculiar
Humility brings on a change of heart.

1.
Alma 32: 13-16, 25
13 And now, because ye are compelled to be humble blessed are ye; for a man sometimes, if he is compelled to be humble, seeketh repentance; and now surely, whosoever repenteth shall find mercy; and he that findeth mercy and endureth to the end the same shall be saved.
14 And now, as I said unto you, that because ye were compelled to be humble ye were blessed, do ye not suppose that they are more blessed who truly humble themselves because of the word?
15 Yea, he that truly humbleth himself, and repenteth of his sins, and endureth to the end, the same shall be blessed—yea, much more blessed than they who are compelled to be humble because of their exceeding poverty.
16 Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe.
• • •
25 For I do not mean that ye all of you have been compelled to humble yourselves; for I verily believe that there are some among you who would humble themselves, let them be in whatsoever circumstances they might.

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 27th, 2008, 12:46 pm
by bobhenstra
Years ago (1980) when the Hunt brothers were driving up the price of silver I had a heyday selling all the silver I owned and buying things I felt I needed at the time, camping equipment, a canoe, fishing equipment, a thirty pound thrust electric trolling motor, a bike, two rifles and a shotgun,---- and, a very pretty dress for wifie------Have you ever been put in your place? Wow, bad move on my part. Wifie wanted to spend half-- a pretty dress didn't hack it, I was informed that I bought the dress only because I wanted to see her in it-- which was--kinda true, actually I preferred her in somethi------ but uh,-- is that a bad thing, seeing my bride in a pretty dress?

However, since I was spending, she wanted her share. The old stanza "what's mine is mine, what's yours is ours" didn't work. So I gave her half---she promptly spent it all on the kids----typical woman!

I was feeling a bit selfish and attempted to explain; Dearie, I said-- my reasons for buying everything I bought was for the “family,” so we could go camping-- my explanation was met with a cold stare--- had to think faster-- I quickly called my boss, took a week off "citing family problems" and we left for the lake!

Whew, sometimes you just gotta think fast. I pondered what my fast thinking had accomplished as I sit on the shore of Hidden Lake tending our baby, while Jo and the older kids paddled by in my-- our-- canoe, going around and around the little lake.

JoAnn and the older kids had a great time, the kids still talk about that camping trip, after all this time I'm finally able to manage a forced smile! Oh the fish I coulda caught---- the pain---

I started this missive with silver. How “I” got that silver.-- Some of it, as coin of the realm!-- JoAnn liked to have a couple of rolls of quarters to reward the kids for jobs well done. Several years before the camping trip (Jo always called it the spending fling) while on a yard sale-ing junket with my Mother and aunt, Jo figured she must have got the silver when she had stopped into a bank in a mall and bought three rolls of quarters, that she later placed in a metal can she kept in her drawer. She had bought the quarters to throw onto the lawn for our annual family Easter egg hunt we had for the kids. But it had rained and the hunt was called off. There were also several rolls of quarters in her can that she had rolled up from our coin bottle, the bottle we threw our change into when we come home from work or shopping. When she started handing out coins from one of those silver rolls, I “noticed” immediately that the kids were being given real silver coins, so I checked all the rolls in her can and found three rolls were all silver, every coin! I made a quick trip to our credit union, bought three more rolls of quarters and “slyly” replaced the silver coins with the funny money., then I traded the kids, two funny money shiny new coins for their dirty old silver coins.

It was a total of six silver coins, and what the heck, they weren’t going to save them, quarters were meant for spending!---- but,--- when the kids got older Jo spilled the beans, and, I haven’t heard the end of it since! The grief I have been forced to endure because of a buck fifty--- no man should ----

So last Christmas I give all my kids, of course now adults, a shiny silver dollar, each in great condition, and all over one hundred years old.--- I was promptly accused of attempting to “buy” them off! It wouldn’t work I was told, the stories, by this time heavily embellished in my opinion, would continue!--- And they have.--Dang brats!

I had collected several hundred dollars (face value) of silver coins in my drawer, much of it I had found with my Whites metal detector, silver coins, gold rings, jewelry of different types. But through the years after they quit stamping coins out of silver, I had managed to collect a lot of silver in coins. When the silver price went up past $50 dollars an ounce and gold well over $350 dollars, I decided to sell. Only those six silver coins had cost us anything more then face value, A lot we got free, if you don’t count the cost of the metal detector. Almost all of the gold we had, I found with the metal detector.

Really, It was a fun shopping trip for Jo years ago, and Jo later admitted that all the fun camping trips had been worth it also. Do I wish I had all that silver back, no! What we did with it was worth every penny of it. I did feel a tiny bit bad for the people who bought it from us, just a bit, for a few seconds! The price dropped way back down where it was a few days after I sold it. But hey, they took their chances just like I did. Sometime ago I bought 10,000 shares of a gold mine at .39 cents a share, today it’s worth 13 cents, and I could have sold at .95 cents, but I didn’t!

The thing is, years ago, had I taken all that silver to the bank, all I would have received is face value. That’s why Jo was given rolls of silver quarters, they didn’t care. When you try to pay your house payment with gold coins, are the PTB’s going to give you credit for what gold is worth as sold by the ounce, or are you going to get just face value, $20 bucks for a twenty dollar gold piece, the same you’d get with a twenty dollar bill? And if they won’t give you what you think is gold value, who will? And, if everything has gone to hell, how are you even going to make a payment with your gold, mail it in?

Hunt, a conservative friend?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Bunker_Hunt

Bob

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 27th, 2008, 1:07 pm
by bobhenstra
gruden wrote:
bobhenstra wrote: However I see nothing wrong with have a years supply of house payments available. If creditors won't take US currency, they won't take my home! And therein lies the rub. Say I owned $30,000 to a bank and they decided not to take US currency, what then could they take?? Not my gold, not my silver, I don’t have any (that they know about) its currency or nothing! You want my food? Tough! You’ll need a bigger army!
Bob
Truth is, they don't have to accept anything short of full payment if they wanted to foreclose on you. Virtually all mortgages give the lender the right to demand full payment, and if the borrower can't do that, then foreclosure. My wife's great-grandmother came into this very situation during the Great Depression. Someone wanted the property and was prepared to pay cash for it. Rather than deal with the uncertainty of the current residents' continued ability to pay, they demanded full payment and then foreclosed to sell it to the new buyer. Typically this isn't in the banks' best interest so this is rarely done, but that doesn't mean it couldn't.
Well, you see, that's theft! I'm willing to defend myself from that kind of theft! They want my house and property, they go through me!

Bob

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 27th, 2008, 6:59 pm
by Oldemandalton
OK, Bob, you got me. :) Honey and wheat it is!

OMD

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 27th, 2008, 7:14 pm
by obamohno
Well, I acted on impulse and put half my 25k in gold and silver, now I am slowly putting the other half in food and storage/survival items.

So ill have about 6k silver, 6k gold and 6k food.

When SHTF, I am going to make a push, pushing my metals for other peoples real items as they need money to buy things.

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 27th, 2008, 8:52 pm
by Spence
Make sure you have guns as well obamohno. Any man storing food, should have a gun or two to protect it. Don't think there aren't people who would kill you in an instant if they knew you had food. In fact, I have heard that some people sell Ward Lists at Gun Shows. So when the SHTF, those with guns will loot the LDS.

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 27th, 2008, 9:11 pm
by gruden
bobhenstra wrote:
gruden wrote: Truth is, they don't have to accept anything short of full payment if they wanted to foreclose on you. Virtually all mortgages give the lender the right to demand full payment, and if the borrower can't do that, then foreclosure. My wife's great-grandmother came into this very situation during the Great Depression. Someone wanted the property and was prepared to pay cash for it. Rather than deal with the uncertainty of the current residents' continued ability to pay, they demanded full payment and then foreclosed to sell it to the new buyer. Typically this isn't in the banks' best interest so this is rarely done, but that doesn't mean it couldn't.
Well, you see, that's theft! I'm willing to defend myself from that kind of theft! They want my house and property, they go through me!

Bob
Who really owns the property you live on? Do we ever truly own anything? Try not paying property taxes for a year or so and you'll see who really owns the land you live on, mortgage or no. We've become tenants to small pieces of land, and that's all. How far we have fallen.

Re: Preparing for further economic downturn - buying gold?

Posted: December 27th, 2008, 9:20 pm
by gruden
Proud 2b Peculiar wrote:Humility brings on a change of heart.

1.
Alma 32: 13-16, 25
13 And now, because ye are compelled to be humble blessed are ye; for a man sometimes, if he is compelled to be humble, seeketh repentance; and now surely, whosoever repenteth shall find mercy; and he that findeth mercy and endureth to the end the same shall be saved.
14 And now, as I said unto you, that because ye were compelled to be humble ye were blessed, do ye not suppose that they are more blessed who truly humble themselves because of the word?
15 Yea, he that truly humbleth himself, and repenteth of his sins, and endureth to the end, the same shall be blessed—yea, much more blessed than they who are compelled to be humble because of their exceeding poverty.
16 Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe.
• • •
25 For I do not mean that ye all of you have been compelled to humble yourselves; for I verily believe that there are some among you who would humble themselves, let them be in whatsoever circumstances they might.
Alma's ministry is probably my favorite part of the Book of Mormon. Remember there is also the prideful poor as well, and we have plenty of those.

I think the rough times we face next year will turn some alienated/inactive members back to the Lord. I don't see mass baptisms in the next few years, though.

Lest you think I'm overly negative, however, I will say this: persecution brings a certain dynamic into the Church and its members. When things get really tough, the chaff will fall away and those that stay will be refined and spiritually powerful. Miracles will result which will bring some into the fold.

Past prophets have also said that when things getting really bad in our land, there will be many drawn to where the Church is to seek refuge and safety. This will also increase membership. Plus we'll have the 144,000 gathering whomever will come and join.

In a nutshell, overall I think we'll see a big drop, followed later by a big upswing. I guess we're of the generation who will see this all unfold, whatever happens.