LDS Freedom Forum

The prophecy fulfilled was:

Isaiah 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

A flood of evidence has overflowed the hiding place of the BOM land revealing its location viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52973. And it reveals something else as well. By now you should know what that is. You should really study this out because the next prophecy to be fulfilled is:

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

13:6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil, that he was the founder of it.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

13:38 And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant ...

Micah 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

Micah 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Micah 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Micah 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.


Are you feeling the pangs? You should be!

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 10:10 am The prophecy fulfilled was:

Isaiah 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

A flood of evidence has overflowed the hiding place of the BOM land revealing its location viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52973. And it reveals something else as well. By now you should know what that is. You should really study this out because the next prophecy to be fulfilled is:

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

13:6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil, that he was the founder of it.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

13:38 And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant ...

Micah 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

Micah 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Micah 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Micah 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.


Are you feeling the pangs? You should be!

Please explain.

Are you saying that this speculation of yours:

In a nutshell, here is my theory. And I say at the outset that I have very little evidence to support it. Arthur was a Bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ in post Roman times. Beset with apostacy and isolated from any news from the headquarters of the church he sent his priests/knights on a quest for the Holy Grail (keys of the priesthood). They were surrounded by hostile pagans, the English (not much has changed, has it!) and had to keep their mission somewhat covert (think Moroni and the Lamanites killing any Christians they found) hence the quest for the "Holy Grail". Bishops had the keys to ordain deacons teachers and priests, but no office higher. Linguistic echoes remained in the later English church.

is evidence that the Book of Mormon happened not in America but in Europe??

We probably have different definitions for evidence or perhaps I am just not following.

thestock wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 12:25 pm Are you saying that this speculation of yours:

In a nutshell, here is my theory. And I say at the outset that I have very little evidence to support it. Arthur was a Bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ in post Roman times. Beset with apostacy and isolated from any news from the headquarters of the church he sent his priests/knights on a quest for the Holy Grail (keys of the priesthood). They were surrounded by hostile pagans, the English (not much has changed, has it!) and had to keep their mission somewhat covert (think Moroni and the Lamanites killing any Christians they found) hence the quest for the "Holy Grail". Bishops had the keys to ordain deacons teachers and priests, but no office higher. Linguistic echoes remained in the later English church.

is evidence that the Book of Mormon happened not in America but in Europe??

We probably have different definitions for evidence or perhaps I am just not following.

You quoted Dave62. I do not see Dave62 in this thread yet!

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 1:19 pm

thestock wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 12:25 pm Are you saying that this speculation of yours:

In a nutshell, here is my theory. And I say at the outset that I have very little evidence to support it. Arthur was a Bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ in post Roman times. Beset with apostacy and isolated from any news from the headquarters of the church he sent his priests/knights on a quest for the Holy Grail (keys of the priesthood). They were surrounded by hostile pagans, the English (not much has changed, has it!) and had to keep their mission somewhat covert (think Moroni and the Lamanites killing any Christians they found) hence the quest for the "Holy Grail". Bishops had the keys to ordain deacons teachers and priests, but no office higher. Linguistic echoes remained in the later English church.

is evidence that the Book of Mormon happened not in America but in Europe??

We probably have different definitions for evidence or perhaps I am just not following.

You quoted Dave62. I do not see Dave62 in this thread yet!

Ah. Apologies, that is annoying. Well, I am having a hard time following you on this. Can you elaborate more for those of us that are unskilled in perusing former threads?

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 10:36 am

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 10:10 am The prophecy fulfilled was:

Isaiah 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

A flood of evidence has overflowed the hiding place of the BOM land revealing its location viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52973. And it reveals something else as well. By now you should know what that is. You should really study this out because the next prophecy to be fulfilled is:

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

13:6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil, that he was the founder of it.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

13:38 And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant ...

Micah 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

Micah 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Micah 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Micah 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.


Are you feeling the pangs? You should be!

Please explain.

Are you inviting me to take another ride on the Sherwood Forest merry go round, again? You and I disagree that England is the BOM land. Unless you have changed your mind. Anyway, my revealing (from the Spirit) that England is the BOM land fulfills Isaiah 28:17 because that which was hidden all these years was the BOM land. The refuge of lies is that the BOM land was in the Americas. After 200 years of drought about the true location of the BOM land it was identified as in a flood of waters brought out by the Holy Spirit. You know my story. I can't help it if you don't like my story, myself or the message. It is what it is.

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 1:36 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 10:36 am

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 10:10 am The prophecy fulfilled was:

Isaiah 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

A flood of evidence has overflowed the hiding place of the BOM land revealing its location viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52973. And it reveals something else as well. By now you should know what that is. You should really study this out because the next prophecy to be fulfilled is:

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

13:6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil, that he was the founder of it.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

13:38 And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant ...

Micah 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

Micah 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Micah 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Micah 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.


Are you feeling the pangs? You should be!

Please explain.

Are you inviting me to take another ride on the Sherwood Forest merry go round, again? You and I disagree that England is the BOM land. Unless you have changed your mind. Anyway, my revealing (from the Spirit) that England is the BOM land fulfills Isaiah 28:17 because that which was hidden all these years was the BOM land. The refuge of lies is that the BOM land was in the Americas. After 200 years of drought about the true location of the BOM land it was identified as in a flood of waters brought out by the Holy Spirit. You know my story. I can't help it if you don't like my story, myself or the message. It is what it is.

With respect, do you not think that it's possible you have an inflated opinion of yourself?
Seriously... do you really believe Isaiah was prophesying about you posting on this forum?

thestock wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 1:24 pm

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 1:19 pm

thestock wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 12:25 pm Are you saying that this speculation of yours:

In a nutshell, here is my theory. And I say at the outset that I have very little evidence to support it. Arthur was a Bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ in post Roman times. Beset with apostacy and isolated from any news from the headquarters of the church he sent his priests/knights on a quest for the Holy Grail (keys of the priesthood). They were surrounded by hostile pagans, the English (not much has changed, has it!) and had to keep their mission somewhat covert (think Moroni and the Lamanites killing any Christians they found) hence the quest for the "Holy Grail". Bishops had the keys to ordain deacons teachers and priests, but no office higher. Linguistic echoes remained in the later English church.

is evidence that the Book of Mormon happened not in America but in Europe??

We probably have different definitions for evidence or perhaps I am just not following.

You quoted Dave62. I do not see Dave62 in this thread yet!

Ah. Apologies, that is annoying. Well, I am having a hard time following you on this. Can you elaborate more for those of us that are unskilled in perusing former threads?

Sure! Is my writing style not clear enough. I try to be as understandable as possible. Anyway, The Spirit revealed to me that the BOM land was in England. That is it. That is all the Spirit told me. That was a couple of years ago. I did nothing with that until just a couple weeks ago when the Spirit said, "tell them about England". I had no data to back that up. So I did about 20 minutes of research and made the OP. Since then I have uncovered a "flood" of correlations. There are just too many to reproduce here. I guess that I can make an outline though. I'll just copy and paste from the other thread.

Okay Michael, your geography for BOM lands isn't any worse than the Heartland model. At least you can find a narrow neck of land with a plausible 1.5 day walking journey (long day, fit young man) from east sea to west. The land of Desolation to the North fits beautifully as well.

I'd like to see you flesh this out a little more. Would you be willing to hazard a best guess for a hill Cumorah where several hundred thousand people died around AD 400, or a large river running north with enough volume to sweep dead bodies out to sea, or a land of many waters?

Hill Cumorah: There are all kinds of hills in that area. I'm not from that area so how could I even hazard a guess?
The large river running north is the Clyde. It empties into the Firth of Clyde.
England is a land of many waters. There is water on all sides and many rivers and streams and marshes (in those times).

Don't forget Hagoth and his boats built at the line where it opens to the western sea, Atlantic. That is a perfect fit as well. Don't forget the narrow stretch of land in the south as well. That also is a perfect fit. Let's not leave out that the iron age is guesstimated to have started about the right time. Ptolemy's map was a perfect match with the BOM. And there is so much more. Especially telling is the state religion to the south. And the south started where Hadrian's wall was built. The recently discovered chariots in Wales. In the BOM the land was "an isle of the sea". The four great seas, north sea, English Channel, Celtic sea and Atlantic Ocean. The Damnonii that existed at the right time in the right spot and disappeared at the right time. The description of the northern britts that they did not use breast-plates and that they were hunters of game and lived in the swamps and mountains and lived in tents. It just all fits "beautifully". As I have said many times now, the Spirit told me that the BOM land is England. All these details came out after that. And the details were not hard to find. What are the odds? They are astronomical!

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 1:40 pm

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 1:36 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 10:36 am

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 10:10 am The prophecy fulfilled was:

Isaiah 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

A flood of evidence has overflowed the hiding place of the BOM land revealing its location viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52973. And it reveals something else as well. By now you should know what that is. You should really study this out because the next prophecy to be fulfilled is:

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

13:6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil, that he was the founder of it.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

13:38 And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant ...

Micah 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

Micah 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Micah 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Micah 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.




Are you feeling the pangs? You should be!

Please explain.

Are you inviting me to take another ride on the Sherwood Forest merry go round, again? You and I disagree that England is the BOM land. Unless you have changed your mind. Anyway, my revealing (from the Spirit) that England is the BOM land fulfills Isaiah 28:17 because that which was hidden all these years was the BOM land. The refuge of lies is that the BOM land was in the Americas. After 200 years of drought about the true location of the BOM land it was identified as in a flood of waters brought out by the Holy Spirit. You know my story. I can't help it if you don't like my story, myself or the message. It is what it is.

With respect, do you not think that it's possible you have an inflated opinion of yourself?
Seriously... do you really believe Isaiah was prophesying about you posting on this forum?

I guess you are inviting me to take another ride on the Sherwood Forest merry go round. I'm going to have to pass on that offer. I'm getting a bit dizzy.

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 2:37 pm

thestock wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 1:24 pm

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 1:19 pm

thestock wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 12:25 pm Are you saying that this speculation of yours:



is evidence that the Book of Mormon happened not in America but in Europe??

We probably have different definitions for evidence or perhaps I am just not following.

You quoted Dave62. I do not see Dave62 in this thread yet!

Ah. Apologies, that is annoying. Well, I am having a hard time following you on this. Can you elaborate more for those of us that are unskilled in perusing former threads?

Sure! Is my writing style not clear enough. I try to be as understandable as possible. Anyway, The Spirit revealed to me that the BOM land was in England. That is it. That is all the Spirit told me. That was a couple of years ago. I did nothing with that until just a couple weeks ago when the Spirit said, "tell them about England". I had no data to back that up. So I did about 20 minutes of research and made the OP. Since then I have uncovered a "flood" of correlations. There are just too many to reproduce here. I guess that I can make an outline though. I'll just copy and paste from the other thread.

Okay Michael, your geography for BOM lands isn't any worse than the Heartland model. At least you can find a narrow neck of land with a plausible 1.5 day walking journey (long day, fit young man) from east sea to west. The land of Desolation to the North fits beautifully as well.

I'd like to see you flesh this out a little more. Would you be willing to hazard a best guess for a hill Cumorah where several hundred thousand people died around AD 400, or a large river running north with enough volume to sweep dead bodies out to sea, or a land of many waters?

Hill Cumorah: There are all kinds of hills in that area. I'm not from that area so how could I even hazard a guess?
The large river running north is the Clyde. It empties into the Firth of Clyde.
England is a land of many waters. There is water on all sides and many rivers and streams and marshes (in those times).

Don't forget Hagoth and his boats built at the line where it opens to the western sea, Atlantic. That is a perfect fit as well. Don't forget the narrow stretch of land in the south as well. That also is a perfect fit. Let's not leave out that the iron age is guesstimated to have started about the right time. Ptolemy's map was a perfect match with the BOM. And there is so much more. Especially telling is the state religion to the south. And the south started where Hadrian's wall was built. The recently discovered chariots in Wales. In the BOM the land was "an isle of the sea". The four great seas, north sea, English Channel, Celtic sea and Atlantic Ocean. The Damnonii that existed at the right time in the right spot and disappeared at the right time. The description of the northern britts that they did not use breast-plates and that they were hunters of game and lived in the swamps and mountains and lived in tents. It just all fits "beautifully". As I have said many times now, the Spirit told me that the BOM land is England. All these details came out after that. And the details were not hard to find. What are the odds? They are astronomical!

Thanks. Did you factor into your research that supposedly the land of the BOM is supposed to be peopled very numerously with the Lamanite/Nephite/Jaredites? Forgive me if I am wrong but isnt the history of England pretty well known between 600 BC and 400 AD? There is no physical evidence of the wars and civilizations that are taught in the BOM, and the actual history is known for England, no?

thestock wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 2:44 pm

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 2:37 pm

thestock wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 1:24 pm

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 1:19 pm
You quoted Dave62. I do not see Dave62 in this thread yet!

Ah. Apologies, that is annoying. Well, I am having a hard time following you on this. Can you elaborate more for those of us that are unskilled in perusing former threads?

Sure! Is my writing style not clear enough. I try to be as understandable as possible. Anyway, The Spirit revealed to me that the BOM land was in England. That is it. That is all the Spirit told me. That was a couple of years ago. I did nothing with that until just a couple weeks ago when the Spirit said, "tell them about England". I had no data to back that up. So I did about 20 minutes of research and made the OP. Since then I have uncovered a "flood" of correlations. There are just too many to reproduce here. I guess that I can make an outline though. I'll just copy and paste from the other thread.

Okay Michael, your geography for BOM lands isn't any worse than the Heartland model. At least you can find a narrow neck of land with a plausible 1.5 day walking journey (long day, fit young man) from east sea to west. The land of Desolation to the North fits beautifully as well.

I'd like to see you flesh this out a little more. Would you be willing to hazard a best guess for a hill Cumorah where several hundred thousand people died around AD 400, or a large river running north with enough volume to sweep dead bodies out to sea, or a land of many waters?

Hill Cumorah: There are all kinds of hills in that area. I'm not from that area so how could I even hazard a guess?
The large river running north is the Clyde. It empties into the Firth of Clyde.
England is a land of many waters. There is water on all sides and many rivers and streams and marshes (in those times).

Don't forget Hagoth and his boats built at the line where it opens to the western sea, Atlantic. That is a perfect fit as well. Don't forget the narrow stretch of land in the south as well. That also is a perfect fit. Let's not leave out that the iron age is guesstimated to have started about the right time. Ptolemy's map was a perfect match with the BOM. And there is so much more. Especially telling is the state religion to the south. And the south started where Hadrian's wall was built. The recently discovered chariots in Wales. In the BOM the land was "an isle of the sea". The four great seas, north sea, English Channel, Celtic sea and Atlantic Ocean. The Damnonii that existed at the right time in the right spot and disappeared at the right time. The description of the northern britts that they did not use breast-plates and that they were hunters of game and lived in the swamps and mountains and lived in tents. It just all fits "beautifully". As I have said many times now, the Spirit told me that the BOM land is England. All these details came out after that. And the details were not hard to find. What are the odds? They are astronomical!

Thanks. Did you factor into your research that supposedly the land of the BOM is supposed to be peopled very numerously with the Lamanite/Nephite/Jaredites? Forgive me if I am wrong but isnt the history of England pretty well known between 600 BC and 400 AD? There is no physical evidence of the wars and civilizations that are taught in the BOM, and the actual history is known for England, no?

No, the history is not that well known. The Romans were mostly in the southeast. They did not have much of a presence in the west. You really should take the time to read my other thread. Almost nothing is known of the Damnonii except they disappeared around 400 AD. The Romans did not have much contact with the Damnonii because the Wild British tribes were in between. Historian's color in ancient maps. But their maps are not very truthful.

Ptolemy's Map
Damnonii (a tribe)
Otadini (another tribe)

BOM
Gidgiddoni (Nephite king)
Giddianhi (Gadianton robber)

Do you see the linguistic correlation? Not definitive in itself but added to the rest it seems amazing.

If I disagree, does that mean I don't have the spirit with me? Does that mean I'm just decieved? Does that mean "my story" is invalidated?

Wayne May has a pretty convincing stance on BOM locations.
http://ldsarchaeology.com/

Just out of curiosity, will you explain this to me:

4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts.

Which migratory ungulate fills that role in 145 bc Britain?

Also, how do you collaborate the story of Zelph and your claim?

Doc wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 10:24 pm Just out of curiosity, will you explain this to me:

4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts.

Which migratory ungulate fills that role in 145 bc Britain?

Also, how do you collaborate the story of Zelph and your claim?

I have to repeat for clarity that all the Spirit said to me was that England was the BOM land. That is all I know from the Spirit. The rest is what I have discovered on my own. And I make mistakes. From my studies of the BOM which are not extensive at this point it seems that the Nephites started out in the southwest and eventually fled to the northwest just below the land desolation. In Alma we see this retreat into the north.

22:27 And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people which was in all his land, which was in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east, and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea, east, even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the sea shore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north, by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west; and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.

The Nephites were south of the land defined above because that land was in the north.

22:29 whither the Nephites had driven them. And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land, bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon, from the east to the west, round about on the wilderness side; on the north, even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful.

The river Sidon is the modern Clyde that runs south to north and whose head waters start just north and west of Hadrian's wall which is the narrow strip of land that formed the Nephites southern border. The northern border was the narrow neck of land where the Romans built the Antonine wall.

22:31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful; it being the wilderness which was filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind; a part of which had come from the land northward, for food.

Alma therefore seems to be a more detailed explanation of Mosiah 18:4.

As far as Zelph is concerned it is a completely different issue. It hinges solely on the credibility of Joseph Smith. There is no testimony of Zelph in the BOM. So therein lies the problem. The Spirit that talks with me told me that the BOM land is England. Joseph Smith says it was North America. Joseph Smith gave up the seer stone around 1829 according to David Whitmer. He gave up the stone because his God given commision to translate the BOM was complete. You can believe David Whitmer or not. However, he was there and witnessed the whole beginning. According to David Whitmer Joseph Smith's role was of scribe and not one of prophet. So to answer your question there is no reconciliation for the Zelph story.

http://latterdaytruth.org/pdf/100023.pdf

MMbelieve wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 10:14 pm Wayne May has a pretty convincing stance on BOM locations.
http://ldsarchaeology.com/

Wayne May cherry picks the data. He tells of the DNA but fails to say that it converges 30,000 years ago. He tells of the mounds being datable to 600 BC or later but fails to mention some mounds date to 1100 BC. Etc. Wayne May tells people what they want to hear.

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 9:53 pm If I disagree, does that mean I don't have the spirit with me? Does that mean I'm just decieved? Does that mean "my story" is invalidated?

You have to figure that out for yourself. Don't make me the enemy!

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 12:19 am

MMbelieve wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 10:14 pm Wayne May has a pretty convincing stance on BOM locations.
http://ldsarchaeology.com/

Wayne May cherry picks the data. He tells of the DNA but fails to say that it converges 30,000 years ago. He tells of the mounds being datable to 600 BC or later but fails to mention some mounds date to 1100 BC. Etc. Wayne May tells people what they want to hear.

People have critiqued your model. You've explained your way around it. You don't think the other models can do that too? It's actually very easy.

The mounds can be learned upon arrival. So big deal if they exist too early. Or I can reference a scripture about lies and say that's the evidence has been obscured.

One can say the DNA dating analysis is wrong, science is changing all the time. I actually have several other arguments for this one including assumptions that were made when the dating was done. Incorrectly dated matching DNA trumps no DNA.

Btw: these aren't my arguments. I don't subscribe to any of the models. They all have serious issues. I'm just making a point that's it's not too hard to create an unfalsifiable claim and then dance around it.

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 12:21 am

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 9:53 pm If I disagree, does that mean I don't have the spirit with me? Does that mean I'm just decieved? Does that mean "my story" is invalidated?

You have to figure that out for yourself. Don't make me the enemy!

I'm not making you the enemy. But you've said the church was founded by the devil (after a certain point, or something like that). You've been condescending to others. And you continually reference your "story". It sounds a bit self-important. I'm just curious what you make of people who hear that and disagree.

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 6:16 am

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 12:21 am

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 9:53 pm If I disagree, does that mean I don't have the spirit with me? Does that mean I'm just decieved? Does that mean "my story" is invalidated?

You have to figure that out for yourself. Don't make me the enemy!

I'm not making you the enemy. But you've said the church was founded by the devil (after a certain point, or something like that). You've been condescending to others. And you continually reference your "story". It sounds a bit self-important. I'm just curious what you make of people who hear that and disagree.

It is expected. What is not expected is for someone to believe.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

THIS ONE WILL BE RECEIVED
Isaiah 44:5 One shall say, I am the LORD's; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel.

THIS ONE WON'T BE RECEIVED
Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

(surname: a name added to a person's name, as one indicating a circumstance of birth or some characteristic or achievement; epithet.)

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 6:25 pm

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 6:16 am

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 12:21 am

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑November 4th, 2019, 9:53 pm If I disagree, does that mean I don't have the spirit with me? Does that mean I'm just decieved? Does that mean "my story" is invalidated?

You have to figure that out for yourself. Don't make me the enemy!

I'm not making you the enemy. But you've said the church was founded by the devil (after a certain point, or something like that). You've been condescending to others. And you continually reference your "story". It sounds a bit self-important. I'm just curious what you make of people who hear that and disagree.

It is expected. What is not expected is for someone to believe.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

THIS ONE WILL BE RECEIVED
Isaiah 44:5 One shall say, I am the LORD's; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel.

THIS ONE WON'T BE RECEIVED
Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

(surname: a name added to a person's name, as one indicating a circumstance of birth or some characteristic or achievement; epithet.)

Yeah, well anyone can play this game. Many others have come and said the same thing. Post the same scriptures.

Do you realize I can do the same? I can paste in my "story" then throw the same scriptures at everyone when they reject me?

Ultimately, you need the Holy Ghost with you or your ministry will be frustrated. Your followers need to see your face and a glowing countenance. Yet here we are, faces hidden behind screen names.

Let me know when you're doing tours. Maybe I'll come along and take a look into those eyes of yours.

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 7:00 pm

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 6:25 pm

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 6:16 am

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 12:21 am
You have to figure that out for yourself. Don't make me the enemy!

I'm not making you the enemy. But you've said the church was founded by the devil (after a certain point, or something like that). You've been condescending to others. And you continually reference your "story". It sounds a bit self-important. I'm just curious what you make of people who hear that and disagree.

It is expected. What is not expected is for someone to believe.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

THIS ONE WILL BE RECEIVED
Isaiah 44:5 One shall say, I am the LORD's; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel.

THIS ONE WON'T BE RECEIVED
Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

(surname: a name added to a person's name, as one indicating a circumstance of birth or some characteristic or achievement; epithet.)

Yeah, well anyone can play this game. Many others have come and said the same thing. Post the same scriptures.

Do you realize I can do the same? I can paste in my "story" then throw the same scriptures at everyone when they reject me?

Ultimately, you need the Holy Ghost with you or your ministry will be frustrated. Your followers need to see your face and a glowing countenance. Yet here we are, faces hidden behind screen names.

Let me know when you're doing tours. Maybe I'll come along and take a look into those eyes of yours.

Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 6th, 2019, 2:25 am

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 7:00 pm

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 6:25 pm

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 6:16 am

I'm not making you the enemy. But you've said the church was founded by the devil (after a certain point, or something like that). You've been condescending to others. And you continually reference your "story". It sounds a bit self-important. I'm just curious what you make of people who hear that and disagree.

It is expected. What is not expected is for someone to believe.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

THIS ONE WILL BE RECEIVED
Isaiah 44:5 One shall say, I am the LORD's; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel.

THIS ONE WON'T BE RECEIVED
Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

(surname: a name added to a person's name, as one indicating a circumstance of birth or some characteristic or achievement; epithet.)

Yeah, well anyone can play this game. Many others have come and said the same thing. Post the same scriptures.

Do you realize I can do the same? I can paste in my "story" then throw the same scriptures at everyone when they reject me?

Ultimately, you need the Holy Ghost with you or your ministry will be frustrated. Your followers need to see your face and a glowing countenance. Yet here we are, faces hidden behind screen names.

Let me know when you're doing tours. Maybe I'll come along and take a look into those eyes of yours.

Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Now you're getting the hang of it. See? This was prophesied that you would regect what I'm saying.

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑November 6th, 2019, 6:27 am

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 6th, 2019, 2:25 am

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 7:00 pm

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 6:25 pm
It is expected. What is not expected is for someone to believe.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

THIS ONE WILL BE RECEIVED
Isaiah 44:5 One shall say, I am the LORD's; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel.

THIS ONE WON'T BE RECEIVED
Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

(surname: a name added to a person's name, as one indicating a circumstance of birth or some characteristic or achievement; epithet.)

Yeah, well anyone can play this game. Many others have come and said the same thing. Post the same scriptures.

Do you realize I can do the same? I can paste in my "story" then throw the same scriptures at everyone when they reject me?

Ultimately, you need the Holy Ghost with you or your ministry will be frustrated. Your followers need to see your face and a glowing countenance. Yet here we are, faces hidden behind screen names.

Let me know when you're doing tours. Maybe I'll come along and take a look into those eyes of yours.

Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Now you're getting the hang of it. See? This was prophesied that you would regect what I'm saying.

Okay you can have the job!

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 6th, 2019, 2:25 am

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 7:00 pm

Michael Sherwin wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 6:25 pm

Mahalanobis Distance wrote: ↑November 5th, 2019, 6:16 am

I'm not making you the enemy. But you've said the church was founded by the devil (after a certain point, or something like that). You've been condescending to others. And you continually reference your "story". It sounds a bit self-important. I'm just curious what you make of people who hear that and disagree.

It is expected. What is not expected is for someone to believe.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

THIS ONE WILL BE RECEIVED
Isaiah 44:5 One shall say, I am the LORD's; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel.

THIS ONE WON'T BE RECEIVED
Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

(surname: a name added to a person's name, as one indicating a circumstance of birth or some characteristic or achievement; epithet.)

Yeah, well anyone can play this game. Many others have come and said the same thing. Post the same scriptures.

Do you realize I can do the same? I can paste in my "story" then throw the same scriptures at everyone when they reject me?

Ultimately, you need the Holy Ghost with you or your ministry will be frustrated. Your followers need to see your face and a glowing countenance. Yet here we are, faces hidden behind screen names.

Let me know when you're doing tours. Maybe I'll come along and take a look into those eyes of yours.

Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

When I speak of a countenance, do you think I'm talking about good looks?