LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **October 21st, 2019, 5:49 pm**

larsenb wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 2:41 pm
EmmaLee wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 2:36 pm
Art Vandelay wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 2:11 pm
EmmaLee wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 1:17 pm Did the apostles say as much when Clinton or BO were in office? If not, why not? The damage they both did to the U.S. (and elsewhere) was incalculable, yet I don't remember a plea to "pray for our country", or that "we need to have leaders like Abraham Lincoln and George Washington - God fearing men . . today's leaders should forsake evil and cleave unto God", when either of those truly evil, anti-Christ, anti-American men were president. How very strange, but sadly, expected. I would add, pray for our Church, to the list of things to pray for.
I don't think this is a Trump issue. My opinion and the first thing that came to my mind is that the secret combinations are being brought to light and all hell will break loose soon enough. This hasn't happened before, at least in this country to the degree it is now.
I understand what you're saying, Art, but I respectfully disagree. The country is in the state it's in now precisely because nothing was done about Clinton and BO (and others to a degree, including both Bushes). If our Church leaders had spoken out even once during either of those heinously evil administrations - or asked us to pray for the country using the same verbiage as they used here (which it's plainly obvious what they're implying, IMO) - then I might accept what you're saying. They didn't. Can you find any pro (or even neutral) articles about Trump in the LDS Church-owned Deseret News? Have the apostles given him his genealogy info, like they did with Clinton and BO (pretty much as soon as they were in office their first term, BTW)? Did any of the apostles publicly diss Clinton or BO when they were in office, like Oaks did in his BYU-Hawaii speech a couple years ago? Those are just a few examples of obvious, glaring differences in how the Church leaders (and those who they get their news/info from) viewed/treated Clinton and BO vs. Trump. It doesn't take much to read between the lines of what Ballard said, IMO.

And before I get attacked by some here who seem to think only fans of Trump see and recognize all these things, I didn't vote for Trump - I voted for the Constitution Party candidate.
Ballard along w/Anderson came out against 'nationalism' with no qualification exactly 2 years ago when it was clearly known that Trump was repeatedly speaking out against the dangers of globalism, and the necessity of protecting our borders and nation.

You forgot to mention that Apostle Cook was in on that heresy too. And President Russell M. Nelson never went to the pulpit to ask them to sit down for teaching false doctrine. Do I smell hypocrisy from all these brethren?

Posted: **October 21st, 2019, 6:56 pm**

Were they echoing Romney?????
What an important/telling answer this would be^^^

If they are echoing Romney....we're so screwed. And you guys know it

I think they are calling out trump. They wouldn't say we NEED good leaders if they thought we already had one...

Let's all hope they weren't speaking about trump.

Posted: **October 21st, 2019, 7:27 pm**

EmmaLee wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 1:17 pm Did the apostles say as much when Clinton or BO were in office? If not, why not? The damage they both did to the U.S. (and elsewhere) was incalculable, yet I don't remember a plea to "pray for our country", or that "we need to have leaders like Abraham Lincoln and George Washington - God fearing men . . today's leaders should forsake evil and cleave unto God", when either of those truly evil, anti-Christ, anti-American men were president. How very strange, but sadly, expected. I would add, pray for our Church, to the list of things to pray for.

I've heard several Apostles ask us to pray for our country dating back to the mid 90' s. Sounds like you have an ax to grind.

Posted: **October 21st, 2019, 7:34 pm**

lundbaek wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 5:06 pm If our Church leaders had spoken out even once during any of those heinously evil administrations since the Reagan administration the latter-day gadiantons would have come down on the Church and hell would have cone with them. From Bush 41 thru Obama, ALL presidents have been gadiantons. I don't expect much concurrence on that, but I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

So if Ballard (or any apostle) had said this (below) at an LDS Church meeting during the Clinton or BO administrations, the latter-day gadiantons would have come down on the Church and hell would have come with them?

Ballard wrote:We must stand boldly for righteousness and truth and must defend the cause of honor, decency and personal freedom espoused by Washington, Madison, Adams, Lincoln and other leaders who acknowledged and loved God.

Posted: **October 21st, 2019, 7:35 pm**

The East Wind wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 7:27 pm
EmmaLee wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 1:17 pm Did the apostles say as much when Clinton or BO were in office? If not, why not? The damage they both did to the U.S. (and elsewhere) was incalculable, yet I don't remember a plea to "pray for our country", or that "we need to have leaders like Abraham Lincoln and George Washington - God fearing men . . today's leaders should forsake evil and cleave unto God", when either of those truly evil, anti-Christ, anti-American men were president. How very strange, but sadly, expected. I would add, pray for our Church, to the list of things to pray for.
I've heard several Apostles ask us to pray for our country dating back to the mid 90' s. Sounds like you have an ax to grind.

No ax to grind, but thank you for attacking me personally, The East Wind - we've come to expect it of you, good LDS person that you are. Oh, you also missed my point entirely - also to be expected from you.

Posted: **October 21st, 2019, 7:40 pm**

lundbaek wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 10:31 am I got the following text from a friend who's daughter lives in Alexandria, VA today and thought it was worth sharing:

"We had stake conf this morning . . . later in the afternoon, we had regional conference with Pres. Ballard and Elder Christopherson broadcast from Boston, Massachusetts. Pres. Ballard asked us to pray for our nation after giving a 'historical colonial America talk' and included Nephi's vision of this happening. He said multiple times pray for the Nation, this country, our leaders, and tell everyone you know to do the same. That this Nation was founded on prayer. That we need to stand boldly for truth. And righteousness. That we need to have leaders like Abraham Lincoln and George Washington - God fearing men . . today's leaders should forsake evil and cleave unto God. Because we are not immune to destruction.

In your opinion, you believe the gads would have destroyed the Church had Ballard or any of the apostles said the above during the Clinton or BO administrations? I don't - not for a second.

Posted: **October 21st, 2019, 7:41 pm**

EmmaLee wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 7:35 pm
The East Wind wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 7:27 pm
EmmaLee wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 1:17 pm Did the apostles say as much when Clinton or BO were in office? If not, why not? The damage they both did to the U.S. (and elsewhere) was incalculable, yet I don't remember a plea to "pray for our country", or that "we need to have leaders like Abraham Lincoln and George Washington - God fearing men . . today's leaders should forsake evil and cleave unto God", when either of those truly evil, anti-Christ, anti-American men were president. How very strange, but sadly, expected. I would add, pray for our Church, to the list of things to pray for.
I've heard several Apostles ask us to pray for our country dating back to the mid 90' s. Sounds like you have an ax to grind.
No ax to grind, but thank you for attacking me personally, The East Wind - we've come to expect it of you, good LDS person that you are. Oh, you also missed my point entirely - also to be expected from you.

I attacked you personally?

Posted: **October 21st, 2019, 7:43 pm**

The East Wind wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 7:41 pm
EmmaLee wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 7:35 pm
The East Wind wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 7:27 pm
EmmaLee wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 1:17 pm Did the apostles say as much when Clinton or BO were in office? If not, why not? The damage they both did to the U.S. (and elsewhere) was incalculable, yet I don't remember a plea to "pray for our country", or that "we need to have leaders like Abraham Lincoln and George Washington - God fearing men . . today's leaders should forsake evil and cleave unto God", when either of those truly evil, anti-Christ, anti-American men were president. How very strange, but sadly, expected. I would add, pray for our Church, to the list of things to pray for.
I've heard several Apostles ask us to pray for our country dating back to the mid 90' s. Sounds like you have an ax to grind.
No ax to grind, but thank you for attacking me personally, The East Wind - we've come to expect it of you, good LDS person that you are. Oh, you also missed my point entirely - also to be expected from you.
I attacked you personally?

Yes, falsely accusing me of "having an ax to grind". Or maybe those are loving words where you come from.

Posted: **October 21st, 2019, 7:48 pm**

Pres. Ballard said that we need to stand boldly for truth. And righteousness. That we need to have leaders like Abraham Lincoln and George Washington - God fearing men . . today's leaders should forsake evil and cleave unto God. Because we are not immune to destruction.

If any of our apostles have said anything similar to this ^ publicly since Benson, I would love a reference or a link to the talk/speech. Not, "I remember apostles telling us to pray for our nation" - that's not what I'm talking about (as should have been obvious) - I'm looking for something in writing from an official source where they've said similar to the above in blue. They may have said something like this and I missed it, so I'd really like to read it, thanks!

Posted: **October 21st, 2019, 8:04 pm**

EmmaLee wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 7:40 pm
lundbaek wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 10:31 am I got the following text from a friend who's daughter lives in Alexandria, VA today and thought it was worth sharing:

"We had stake conf this morning . . . later in the afternoon, we had regional conference with Pres. Ballard and Elder Christopherson broadcast from Boston, Massachusetts. Pres. Ballard asked us to pray for our nation after giving a 'historical colonial America talk' and included Nephi's vision of this happening. He said multiple times pray for the Nation, this country, our leaders, and tell everyone you know to do the same. That this Nation was founded on prayer. That we need to stand boldly for truth. And righteousness. That we need to have leaders like Abraham Lincoln and George Washington - God fearing men . . today's leaders should forsake evil and cleave unto God. Because we are not immune to destruction.
In your opinion, you believe the gads would have destroyed the Church had Ballard or any of the apostles said the above during the Clinton or BO administrations? I don't - not for a second.

Right!

It's weird how Mormons always claim that we don't do whats right because bad people will try to stop us.
Lol we don't speak out at Secret Combinations because they might destroy us....

Well....we see how that strategy is working out for us.

Posted: **October 21st, 2019, 10:42 pm**

Title of thread still not changed

As far as I am aware this Forum is not exclusively for Americans.

Lack of knowledge and acknowledgement of any world outside of the US, by many Americans, is tiring, aggravating and annoying to many in the world, including myself.

The following quote shows clearly that it is the United States of America which is being referred to. Obviously, this should be reflected in the title of this thread.

"WORCESTER, Mass. — President M. Russell Ballard urged members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in New England on Sunday evening to “join a new movement” by inviting their neighbors, colleagues and friends on social media to pray for the United States, its leaders and its families.

“Our nation was founded on prayer, it was preserved by prayer and we need prayer again,” said the acting president of the church’s Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. “I plead with you this evening to pray for this country, for our leaders, for our people and for the families that live in this great nation founded by God.”

Elizabeth wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 10:12 am How about stating which country in the title...

Posted: **October 21st, 2019, 11:58 pm**

Maybe they are asking us to pray because they know what shall happen to the next 4 contrary feathers? I just read 2 Esdras 11&12, Daniel 7, Revelation 13, 3 Nephi 21, and Ether 8...the thoughts and images that came into my mind are ominous.

I won’t pretend to know why the leadership is not calling out the secret combinations...but I do know the third member of the Godhead is making this gentile awake to a sense of the awful situation we are in. Perhaps not until the Ancient of Days arrives will we be able to look back and understand exactly what happened and why. Regardless, knowing this or not, our next step must be repentance.

Posted: **October 22nd, 2019, 12:09 am**

GeeR wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 5:49 pm
larsenb wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 2:41 pm
EmmaLee wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 2:36 pm
Art Vandelay wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 2:11 pm

I don't think this is a Trump issue. My opinion and the first thing that came to my mind is that the secret combinations are being brought to light and all hell will break loose soon enough. This hasn't happened before, at least in this country to the degree it is now.
I understand what you're saying, Art, but I respectfully disagree. The country is in the state it's in now precisely because nothing was done about Clinton and BO (and others to a degree, including both Bushes). If our Church leaders had spoken out even once during either of those heinously evil administrations - or asked us to pray for the country using the same verbiage as they used here (which it's plainly obvious what they're implying, IMO) - then I might accept what you're saying. They didn't. Can you find any pro (or even neutral) articles about Trump in the LDS Church-owned Deseret News? Have the apostles given him his genealogy info, like they did with Clinton and BO (pretty much as soon as they were in office their first term, BTW)? Did any of the apostles publicly diss Clinton or BO when they were in office, like Oaks did in his BYU-Hawaii speech a couple years ago? Those are just a few examples of obvious, glaring differences in how the Church leaders (and those who they get their news/info from) viewed/treated Clinton and BO vs. Trump. It doesn't take much to read between the lines of what Ballard said, IMO.

And before I get attacked by some here who seem to think only fans of Trump see and recognize all these things, I didn't vote for Trump - I voted for the Constitution Party candidate.
Ballard along w/Anderson came out against 'nationalism' with no qualification exactly 2 years ago when it was clearly known that Trump was repeatedly speaking out against the dangers of globalism, and the necessity of protecting our borders and nation.
You forgot to mention that Apostle Cook was in on that heresy too. And President Russell M. Nelson never went to the pulpit to ask them to sit down for teaching false doctrine. Do I smell hypocrisy from all these brethren?

Cook qualified his mention of 'nationalism' by basically condemning the type of nationalism that takes advantage of other nations and acts superior/arrogant toward them. I had no problem with that, personally.

Posted: **October 22nd, 2019, 12:33 am**

Elizabeth wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 10:42 pm . . . . .

“Our nation was founded on prayer, it was preserved by prayer and we need prayer again,” said the acting president of the church’s Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. “I plead with you this evening to pray for this country, for our leaders, for our people and for the families that live in this great nation founded by God.”

The US-centric focus of the Church has long standing, based mainly on the idea that it couldn't have been set up in a country not established on principles of freedom, and of course, all of its early history was here. So that refocus happens now and again. Could get tedious to LDS outside of the US, though, as you mention.

I'm really wondering if Bro. Ballard and others of the Brethren have any awareness of Trump's focus on preserving hour Christian heritage, our reliance on God, and entering into prayer sessions multiple times with large groups of Christians, even allowing them to lay their hands on him as they pray.

Are they aware of or did they listen to Trump's first address to the Values Voter Summit a few years ago? That was a magnificent talk. Very supportive of Christianity and other faith-based religions and the fact that God is the source of our liberties and very being. Or any of Trump's other references to God, and the importance of prayer, or his UN speech on the necessity for countries to support religious freedom.

Unfortunately, if the news sources they rely on don't cover these things, they may know nothing about them. If you don't learn about something from your normal 'validation sources', its like it doesn't exist. Its certain they won't hear these things or read editorials praising this stance in the DesNews.

Posted: **October 22nd, 2019, 9:21 am**

GeeR wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 5:42 pm
Art Vandelay wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 3:22 pm
EmmaLee wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 2:36 pm
Art Vandelay wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 2:11 pm

I don't think this is a Trump issue. My opinion and the first thing that came to my mind is that the secret combinations are being brought to light and all hell will break loose soon enough. This hasn't happened before, at least in this country to the degree it is now.

I understand what you're saying, Art, but I respectfully disagree. The country is in the state it's in now precisely because nothing was done about Clinton and BO (and others to a degree, including both Bushes). If our Church leaders had spoken out even once during either of those heinously evil administrations - or asked us to pray for the country using the same verbiage as they used here (which it's plainly obvious what they're implying, IMO) - then I might accept what you're saying. They didn't. Can you find any pro (or even neutral) articles about Trump in the LDS Church-owned Deseret News? Have the apostles given him his genealogy info, like they did with Clinton and BO (pretty much as soon as they were in office their first term, BTW)? Did any of the apostles publicly diss Clinton or BO when they were in office, like Oaks did with Trump in his BYU-Hawaii speech a couple years ago? Did any of the apostles attend the inauguration of Trump? Those are just a few examples of obvious, glaring differences in how the Church leaders (and those who they get their news/info from) viewed/treated Clinton and BO vs. Trump. It doesn't take much to read between the lines of what Ballard said, IMO.

And before I get attacked by some here who seem to think only fans of Trump see and recognize all these things, I didn't vote for Trump - I voted for the Constitution Party candidate.
Whatever side some of the Apostles might be on, Ballard didn't say anything specific towards Trump being the problem. He did, however, specify that this is the Lord's message to us.
Things to think about-

Trump invokes God.
Trump wants to protect Christianity.
Trump says this is a Christian nation based on Christian principles.
Trump is for religious freedom.
Trump is pro-life

The left are against all of the above.

Ballard said this-

"We must stand boldly for righteousness and truth and must defend the cause of honor, decency and personal freedom espoused by Washington, Madison, Adams, Lincoln and other leaders who acknowledged and loved God.”

None of that is found within the new Democrat party.
It's not spoken of at General Conferance either.

What's not spoken at GC?

The new democrat party actually preach against those things I listed. It didn't start with Obama but he wasn't shy about stating it.
"Whatever we once were, we are no longer a Christian nation – at least, not just. We are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, and a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers."-Obama
Robert O'rourke (Beto), with cheers from the peanut gallery, said religious institutions shouldn't be allowed to oppose same sex marriage. Martin Castro basically said the same thing.
We know the left is vocal about their belief in killing unborn and now even newborn baby's. That's nothing new.

Posted: **October 22nd, 2019, 9:35 am**

lundbaek wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 5:06 pm If our Church leaders had spoken out even once during any of those heinously evil administrations since the Reagan administration the latter-day gadiantons would have come down on the Church and hell would have cone with them. From Bush 41 thru Obama, ALL presidents have been gadiantons. I don't expect much concurrence on that, but I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

I think the church could have set an example by calling all those things out and it might have had a fantastic missionary effect. Instead, were "friends" with people who will turn on us, anyway. But, who knows? The church doesn't seem to hold the sentiments it used to towards secret combinations and the proper role of government. What we are perceiving is the current reality of the church, sadly. Some of us, myself included, don't want to accept it. It is what it is, though.

Posted: **October 22nd, 2019, 10:20 am**

larsenb wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 12:40 pmHow can any reasonable LDS American object to these wonderful sentiments?

Trump said the word pussy so he is forever condemned by LDS folks.

Posted: **October 22nd, 2019, 11:04 am**

Vision wrote: ↑October 22nd, 2019, 10:20 am
larsenb wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 12:40 pmHow can any reasonable LDS American object to these wonderful sentiments?
Trump said the word pussy so he is forever condemned by LDS folks.

True, Trump is a pompous pig but even a pompous pig produces bacon. I voted for him and I'll vote for him again. He's far from perfect but he's standing up to the deep state and secret combination like no other.

Posted: **October 22nd, 2019, 11:31 am**

EmmaLee wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 2:36 pm
And before I get attacked by some here who seem to think only fans of Trump see and recognize all these things, I didn't vote for Trump - I voted for the Constitution Party candidate.

I'm a fan of Trump and I voted for him and I don't think Ballard's comments mean what you think they mean but I don't know, maybe they do.

Oaks also went after Obama regarding religious freedom- FYI.

I think Obama got a bit more attention from our church leaders simply because of the color of his skin. That's my opinion. If I remember right I think Uchtdorf was a fan of Obama.
I struggle to see how any Christian can be supportive of the democratic party. They stand for everything contrary to the Gospel.

Posted: **October 22nd, 2019, 11:46 am**

Art Vandelay wrote: ↑October 22nd, 2019, 11:31 am
EmmaLee wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 2:36 pm
And before I get attacked by some here who seem to think only fans of Trump see and recognize all these things, I didn't vote for Trump - I voted for the Constitution Party candidate.
I'm a fan of Trump and I voted for him and I don't think Ballard's comments mean what you think they mean but I don't know, maybe they do.
I sincerely hope you are right; I would be happier if you were right - but I still have my doubts.

Oaks also went after Obama regarding religious freedom- FYI.
I'm not aware of this, but would love to read about what you're referring to.

I think Obama got a bit more attention from our church leaders simply because of the color of his skin. That's my opinion. If I remember right I think Uchtdorf was a fan of Obama.
I struggle to see how any Christian can be supportive of the democratic party. They stand for everything contrary to the Gospel.
I agree with all of this. It is mind-blowing.

Posted: **October 22nd, 2019, 2:30 pm**

You should all get together and give a big seminar on Trump’s glorious battle against secret combinations to the apostles. Who needs being a Seer when you can get people who rant about secret combinations and political conspiracies on the Internet? They clearly need an education in this area.

Set them straight:

Posted: **October 22nd, 2019, 3:41 pm**

larsenb wrote: ↑October 22nd, 2019, 12:09 am
GeeR wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 5:49 pm
larsenb wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 2:41 pm
EmmaLee wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 2:36 pm

I understand what you're saying, Art, but I respectfully disagree. The country is in the state it's in now precisely because nothing was done about Clinton and BO (and others to a degree, including both Bushes). If our Church leaders had spoken out even once during either of those heinously evil administrations - or asked us to pray for the country using the same verbiage as they used here (which it's plainly obvious what they're implying, IMO) - then I might accept what you're saying. They didn't. Can you find any pro (or even neutral) articles about Trump in the LDS Church-owned Deseret News? Have the apostles given him his genealogy info, like they did with Clinton and BO (pretty much as soon as they were in office their first term, BTW)? Did any of the apostles publicly diss Clinton or BO when they were in office, like Oaks did in his BYU-Hawaii speech a couple years ago? Those are just a few examples of obvious, glaring differences in how the Church leaders (and those who they get their news/info from) viewed/treated Clinton and BO vs. Trump. It doesn't take much to read between the lines of what Ballard said, IMO.

And before I get attacked by some here who seem to think only fans of Trump see and recognize all these things, I didn't vote for Trump - I voted for the Constitution Party candidate.
Ballard along w/Anderson came out against 'nationalism' with no qualification exactly 2 years ago when it was clearly known that Trump was repeatedly speaking out against the dangers of globalism, and the necessity of protecting our borders and nation.
You forgot to mention that Apostle Cook was in on that heresy too. And President Russell M. Nelson never went to the pulpit to ask them to sit down for teaching false doctrine. Do I smell hypocrisy from all these brethren?
Cook qualified his mention of 'nationalism' by basically condemning the type of nationalism that takes advantage of other nations and acts superior/arrogant toward them. I had no problem with that, personally.

In that case it’s not nationalism, it’s jingoism.

Posted: **October 22nd, 2019, 4:04 pm**

A vote for Donald Trump is a vote to destroy the 2nd amendment! Here’s why:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lHd9PuiEHY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20O9GsACsOQ

In a talk W. Cleon Skousen gave at BYU many years ago, he gave an answer on how to wake-up people to our awful situation, said he:

"And it's a bit tragic because it isn't a question of whether you are a Democrat or Republican. It's going to take both parties to beat this conspiracy [Secret Combination]. I want to tell you it is so big and so well entrenched that we have a problem when we inform students of how serious it is because they go into a state of shock. They say, "What can we do?" and they mean, "When do we meet at the armory?"

"Actually, this is an educational problem. We don't meet at the armory. We can beat this thing by education and exposure."

"The saddest epitaph carved in memory of a vanished liberty, is that it was lost, lost by its possessors who failed to stretch forth a saving hand while yet there was time." Gorge Sutherland

Now is the time to get the word out "while yet there is time.” So send this message to your friends and family members today!

Posted: **October 22nd, 2019, 4:13 pm**

Elizabeth wrote: ↑October 21st, 2019, 10:12 am How about stating which country in the title...

It's probably good to pray for your country, wherever you live.

Posted: **October 22nd, 2019, 4:16 pm**

I'm not sure how this turned into a trump thread.

I appreciate the request and will encourage my family and ward members to join me in praying for our country and for our leaders to become more God fearing and righteous.

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