Is there a middle ground? The Church and gay marriage

[thestock]

If you are making the case that people just choose to be gay, then I find that absurd and disagree with it. Also, I dont think other people being gay will affect your kids too much.

sorry had too!!!
LOL on this one. This is exactly the slippery slope and gaslighting that they do. On posts like this and IRL.

Obviously you've posted an extreme example. Most LGBTQ people are not pushing for drag queens to read stories to your kids. If that is happening, that is a political ideology......one you can oppose by getting out to vote. Anything else?

[catcatinabox]

??? It only got heated when you started attacking the Church and now you want the thread locked?
It was you who brought up "straight white male" and telling the leaders to "shut the F up".

That sounds like an escalation in rhetoric to me!

I never once attacked the Church. I gave my opinion and respectfully allowed others to express their opinions. I asked you whether LGBTQ people organizing has an effect on your happiness. That was an honest question in a 1 sentence post to you. Your response was disrespectful and unbecoming of a Latter-day Saint and a member of this forum. Do not for one second try to blame ME for instigating that.

Look man, I'm trying to be nice and kind here. You wanted someone to understand where you were coming from; yet you are unwilling to do the same for others.

I gave you my response, yet instead of trying to understand where I was coming from you said that my sincere response to you was
"absurd and disagree with it. Also, I dont think other people being gay will affect your kids too much."

I acknowledge to you IF it is inborn, innate and unchangeable then we have much to change. IF I believed that were the case-I would probably be on your side.

However, I do not believe it is inborn, innate or unchangeable. You cannot seem to even conceptualize that viewpoint. You dismiss out of hand my great concerns for my children. You dismiss it as "absurd". So exactly who is the one who is being unkind and unwilling to listen?

There is a big 'ol mirror right in front of you.

I primarily have the viewpoint that it is neither inborn, innate, nor unchangeable (especially that) because of Christ. To say it is unchangeable is to deny the reality of Christ's power to give men a "new heart" and to become "new creatures" to be "born again". I believe to compromise on this will ultimately lead to a complete and utter dissolution of Christianity in effect.

You either preach through Christ ALL mankind can be changed into new creatures with new desires, new habits, new hearts or you don't.
I can certainly understand how LGBTQ can feel "picked on" so to speak. And yes I do agree in many ways the Church does not preach about Christ's ability to change us enough and relies too heavily on psycobabble, pyscologists, psychiatris, and modern techniques rather than simply Faith in Christ. I do believe if we truly believed Christ, this wouldn't be an issue and that we have compromised our beliefs in Christ on many issues-not just this.

However, this is a line in the sand. This falls and the whole of Christianity falls, it will say the name Jesus but not have any idea of what He can do-it will be dead.

You took offense at me saying my opinion about your opinion is absurd. I can see now how that could make you upset. People say rude things to me all the time about my opinion. I try to realize they dont have the same life experience, views, or opinions as me and that is okay, so I usually respond with "you are entitled to your opinion etc" without trying to criticize them.

I apologize for being critical of your opinion. Yes I 100% believe homosexuality is not a choice for most people. Nobody would choose to the unwanted consequences of being gay over the history of humanity if it was a choice. They suffer those consequences because they are acting out their biology the same as me acting out my biology of attraction to women. The only difference is the Church recognizes my marriage to a woman and wont do the same for homosexuals. I get why they cant, but I do think we need to try harder to understand them and try to find a place for them in our church.

This situation merits a reminder of Christ dealing with the women taken in adultery. The pharisees tried to get him to condemn the woman, and he instead condemned them, saying it is not their place to judge a person whos shoes they have not walked in while they remain needful of repenting of their own sins.

We should try to take that to heart when dealing with homosexuals in general. We havent walked in their shoes. We can show compassion and support. We can be a light and not a source of anxiety for them.

I appreciate the apology thank you.

I wasn't offended by what you said-it didn't offend me. I was pointing out how you were not affording me the same thing that you wanted-i.e. for me to understand your position.

I don't believe this statement in the least bit.
"Nobody would choose to the unwanted consequences of being gay over the history of humanity if it was a choice."

Why would someone NOT choose it? We can make that statement about many, many things.
Why would someone choose to do drugs and take all the unwanted consequences?
(no-one WANTS to have drugs destroy their life)
Why would someone choose to do commit adultery and take all the unwanted consequences?
Why would someone choose to do kill another human being and take all the unwanted consequences?
(no-one WANTS to go to jail)

Just because you or I or even many people don't understand why someone would do something-doesn't mean people don't choose it; people do.
It's a logical fallacy used to play on people's sympathies and good-nature.

That's why I say it is a fundamental misunderstanding (intentional or not) of human nature. Which is man is fallen and people do stupid things all the time, people do things all the time that others say "Why would you do that!!!!!?????" Some people are rebellious, some people are obedient, some are risk-takers, some are not, some like to push the line and see how much they can get away with and some do not.

There is a bottom-line reason why people commit sin-why they engage in homosexuality, adultery, pornography, murder, theft, etc. Because in the moment-they like it! As hard as it is to comprehend, yes some people like sin-they enjoy defying the establish order, rebelling against God, they enjoy what they are doing-or they simply wouldn't do it.

People say stopping sin (porn, adultery, homosexuality, etc.) is about willpower-but it's not. It's about changing your will. Everything you do, everything you ponder on and desire is a manifestation of your will. The key is giving your will over to God and then you only desire what God desires.

[catcatinabox]

The reason why this has become such a huge issue in the Church is because members are seeing friends, children, family members indulge in it.

When you see someone you care about deeply partake in wickedness you have a choice to make. You can either lie to yourself and say "well they are a really good person who would never want to do this or would never choose to do this-therefore it's not their fault"
or you can say
"we are all fallen broken creatures and this child, family member, friend really needs Christ more in their life to overcome their individual tendency for that particular sin"

Unfortunately, because parents love their kids more than they love God they think the first. Then when anyone else tells them their friend/family member/child-needs to repent and call upon God they say "well you are being unkind b/c they are such a good person they would never choose this!"

Except . .. .only God knows if we are good or not. The LGBTQ+ crowd states God tells them "they aren't broken"-except it's a lie-we are ALL broken-just in different ways. It's only by calling upon Christ who redeems us that we can become whole and desire what God wants.

[Art Vandelay]

The leaders have said their piece. What more is there to say? If everytime a leader spoke they made a declaration about how sinful alcohol is and how there is absolutely no room in our Church for people who actively drink alcohol etc......it might make me start to feel like my family is personally attacked because I have a sibling who struggles with alcohol and even though they struggle with alcohol there is still a safe place in the Church for them because even though its against the Word of Wisdom the bretheren dont go up and pound the pulpit every chance they get about alcohol. The standards regarding alcohol are clear.....a reminder every now and then is fine.

Do you at least get where I am coming from?

Is there a group of alcoholics who are flagrantly advertising their sin to the church with the expectation that the WOW will be changed to meet their desires? Are there alcoholics who are demanding that they can come to church drunk? I didn't think so.

13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.

If you'd like to discuss what it means to treat LGBTQ people poorly and in what ways the church is doing it then do tell. I'll be happy to discuss it.

So what? Let them organize. Let them talk about it. Let them try. Whatever they want to spend their energy and resources on......give them that agency. As for the Church.....the position is clear. Not sure what else I can say about it.....I am tired of leaders speaking on this issue. The best way to deal with annoying people who bother you is not to engage them. Just be respectful towards them, and that is it. They've said their piece.....that is enough.

The church has taught the correct doctrine, why won't the LGBTQ community leave it alone? The LGBTQ community should just stop teaching their false ideas. I am tired of them speaking on this issue but as long as they preach their false ideas to church members, the church has the responsibility to make sure correct doctrine is taught. If the gay community will stop preaching their flagrant sins as acceptable behavior, I bet you the church will stop trying to correct their false teachings. Have you told the gay community that the church has spoken their peace and to leave it at that?

[thestock]

The leaders have said their piece. What more is there to say? If everytime a leader spoke they made a declaration about how sinful alcohol is and how there is absolutely no room in our Church for people who actively drink alcohol etc......it might make me start to feel like my family is personally attacked because I have a sibling who struggles with alcohol and even though they struggle with alcohol there is still a safe place in the Church for them because even though its against the Word of Wisdom the bretheren dont go up and pound the pulpit every chance they get about alcohol. The standards regarding alcohol are clear.....a reminder every now and then is fine.

Do you at least get where I am coming from?

Is there a group of alcoholics who are flagrantly advertising their sin to the church with the expectation that the WOW will be changed to meet their desires? Are there alcoholics who are demanding that they can come to church drunk? I didn't think so.

13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.

If you'd like to discuss what it means to treat LGBTQ people poorly and in what ways the church is doing it then do tell. I'll be happy to discuss it.

So what? Let them organize. Let them talk about it. Let them try. Whatever they want to spend their energy and resources on......give them that agency. As for the Church.....the position is clear. Not sure what else I can say about it.....I am tired of leaders speaking on this issue. The best way to deal with annoying people who bother you is not to engage them. Just be respectful towards them, and that is it. They've said their piece.....that is enough.

The church has taught the correct doctrine, why won't the LGBTQ community leave it alone? The LGBTQ community should just stop teaching their false ideas. I am tired of them speaking on this issue but as long as they preach their false ideas to church members, the church has the responsibility to make sure correct doctrine is taught. If the gay community will stop preaching their flagrant sins as acceptable behavior, I bet you the church will stop trying to correct their false teachings. Have you told the gay community that the church has spoken their peace and to leave it at that?

No I dont interact with the gay community. I know some people who are gay, and I dont have any problems with them whatsoever. They are nice and hard working people. Again if the gay community is organizing against the Church, let them organize! Let them do whatever is in their agency to do. Christ taught us to turn the other cheek. Most of them just want a safe space in the Church. Put yourself in their shoes.....imagine you actually have same sex attraction and you are struggling with it. Occasionally you screw up, but mostly you are doing things correctly. But you come to Church where A) The Leaders are talking constantly about it, and B) The church members mostly as a whole voice their disgust with the lifestyle and those who "choose" it. How would that feel? Would you want to remain in the Church? Would you just up and leave? Perhaps you feel like its not fair that gay people and others dont have a place in the Church.

Lets take a look at our own doctrine. We believe that gay people who choose to act out their gay lifestyles can be rewarded with what? Telestial glory? Terrestrial glory? We try to elevate people to Celestial glory.....but there are kingdoms within kingdoms. Many many MANY MANY of our members fall short of Celestial glory. But they have a place in the church. Lets give one to people who struggle with bieng gay. If Terrestrial glory is their cut-off....lets help them get the highest degree of it.

[thestock]

I never once attacked the Church. I gave my opinion and respectfully allowed others to express their opinions. I asked you whether LGBTQ people organizing has an effect on your happiness. That was an honest question in a 1 sentence post to you. Your response was disrespectful and unbecoming of a Latter-day Saint and a member of this forum. Do not for one second try to blame ME for instigating that.

Look man, I'm trying to be nice and kind here. You wanted someone to understand where you were coming from; yet you are unwilling to do the same for others.

I gave you my response, yet instead of trying to understand where I was coming from you said that my sincere response to you was
"absurd and disagree with it. Also, I dont think other people being gay will affect your kids too much."

I acknowledge to you IF it is inborn, innate and unchangeable then we have much to change. IF I believed that were the case-I would probably be on your side.

However, I do not believe it is inborn, innate or unchangeable. You cannot seem to even conceptualize that viewpoint. You dismiss out of hand my great concerns for my children. You dismiss it as "absurd". So exactly who is the one who is being unkind and unwilling to listen?

There is a big 'ol mirror right in front of you.

I primarily have the viewpoint that it is neither inborn, innate, nor unchangeable (especially that) because of Christ. To say it is unchangeable is to deny the reality of Christ's power to give men a "new heart" and to become "new creatures" to be "born again". I believe to compromise on this will ultimately lead to a complete and utter dissolution of Christianity in effect.

You either preach through Christ ALL mankind can be changed into new creatures with new desires, new habits, new hearts or you don't.
I can certainly understand how LGBTQ can feel "picked on" so to speak. And yes I do agree in many ways the Church does not preach about Christ's ability to change us enough and relies too heavily on psycobabble, pyscologists, psychiatris, and modern techniques rather than simply Faith in Christ. I do believe if we truly believed Christ, this wouldn't be an issue and that we have compromised our beliefs in Christ on many issues-not just this.

However, this is a line in the sand. This falls and the whole of Christianity falls, it will say the name Jesus but not have any idea of what He can do-it will be dead.

You took offense at me saying my opinion about your opinion is absurd. I can see now how that could make you upset. People say rude things to me all the time about my opinion. I try to realize they dont have the same life experience, views, or opinions as me and that is okay, so I usually respond with "you are entitled to your opinion etc" without trying to criticize them.

I apologize for being critical of your opinion. Yes I 100% believe homosexuality is not a choice for most people. Nobody would choose to the unwanted consequences of being gay over the history of humanity if it was a choice. They suffer those consequences because they are acting out their biology the same as me acting out my biology of attraction to women. The only difference is the Church recognizes my marriage to a woman and wont do the same for homosexuals. I get why they cant, but I do think we need to try harder to understand them and try to find a place for them in our church.

This situation merits a reminder of Christ dealing with the women taken in adultery. The pharisees tried to get him to condemn the woman, and he instead condemned them, saying it is not their place to judge a person whos shoes they have not walked in while they remain needful of repenting of their own sins.

We should try to take that to heart when dealing with homosexuals in general. We havent walked in their shoes. We can show compassion and support. We can be a light and not a source of anxiety for them.

I appreciate the apology thank you.

I wasn't offended by what you said-it didn't offend me. I was pointing out how you were not affording me the same thing that you wanted-i.e. for me to understand your position.

I don't believe this statement in the least bit.
"Nobody would choose to the unwanted consequences of being gay over the history of humanity if it was a choice."

Why would someone NOT choose it? We can make that statement about many, many things.
Why would someone choose to do drugs and take all the unwanted consequences?
(no-one WANTS to have drugs destroy their life)
Why would someone choose to do commit adultery and take all the unwanted consequences?
Why would someone choose to do kill another human being and take all the unwanted consequences?
(no-one WANTS to go to jail)

Just because you or I or even many people don't understand why someone would do something-doesn't mean people don't choose it; people do.
It's a logical fallacy used to play on people's sympathies and good-nature.

That's why I say it is a fundamental misunderstanding (intentional or not) of human nature. Which is man is fallen and people do stupid things all the time, people do things all the time that others say "Why would you do that!!!!!?????" Some people are rebellious, some people are obedient, some are risk-takers, some are not, some like to push the line and see how much they can get away with and some do not.

There is a bottom-line reason why people commit sin-why they engage in homosexuality, adultery, pornography, murder, theft, etc. Because in the moment-they like it! As hard as it is to comprehend, yes some people like sin-they enjoy defying the establish order, rebelling against God, they enjoy what they are doing-or they simply wouldn't do it.

People say stopping sin (porn, adultery, homosexuality, etc.) is about willpower-but it's not. It's about changing your will. Everything you do, everything you ponder on and desire is a manifestation of your will. The key is giving your will over to God and then you only desire what God desires.

I hear you, I still just disagree. We all struggle with different crosses to bear. Some people are genetically proned to struggle with alcoholism or drugs. Some people grow up in an environment of abuse and neglect where violence is a part of daily life and they struggle with violence later in life. Some people are genetically dispositioned to be attracted to the same sex. Some people are dispositioned to be attracted to the opposite sex and have a sexual addiction there, too. None of us "chooses" these impulses and these problems. As recently as 20 years ago beating up gay people (a hate crime) was pretty common. Gay jokes. Using homosexual slurs. Does anyone use a slur about alcoholics against random people? Do people use slurs against white serial adulterers in everyday conversation? Nobody would CHOOSE to deal with those issues. If people are gay, it is something they struggle with.....and it brings whatever fleeting joy it brings and it brings those nasty consequences too.

[Lizzy60]

Is there a group of alcoholics who are flagrantly advertising their sin to the church with the expectation that the WOW will be changed to meet their desires? Are there alcoholics who are demanding that they can come to church drunk? I didn't think so.

13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.

If you'd like to discuss what it means to treat LGBTQ people poorly and in what ways the church is doing it then do tell. I'll be happy to discuss it.

So what? Let them organize. Let them talk about it. Let them try. Whatever they want to spend their energy and resources on......give them that agency. As for the Church.....the position is clear. Not sure what else I can say about it.....I am tired of leaders speaking on this issue. The best way to deal with annoying people who bother you is not to engage them. Just be respectful towards them, and that is it. They've said their piece.....that is enough.

The church has taught the correct doctrine, why won't the LGBTQ community leave it alone? The LGBTQ community should just stop teaching their false ideas. I am tired of them speaking on this issue but as long as they preach their false ideas to church members, the church has the responsibility to make sure correct doctrine is taught. If the gay community will stop preaching their flagrant sins as acceptable behavior, I bet you the church will stop trying to correct their false teachings. Have you told the gay community that the church has spoken their peace and to leave it at that?

No I dont interact with the gay community. I know some people who are gay, and I dont have any problems with them whatsoever. They are nice and hard working people. Again if the gay community is organizing against the Church, let them organize! Let them do whatever is in their agency to do. Christ taught us to turn the other cheek. Most of them just want a safe space in the Church. Put yourself in their shoes.....imagine you actually have same sex attraction and you are struggling with it. Occasionally you screw up, but mostly you are doing things correctly. But you come to Church where A) The Leaders are talking constantly about it, and B) The church members mostly as a whole voice their disgust with the lifestyle and those who "choose" it. How would that feel? Would you want to remain in the Church? Would you just up and leave? Perhaps you feel like its not fair that gay people and others dont have a place in the Church.

Lets take a look at our own doctrine. We believe that gay people who choose to act out their gay lifestyles can be rewarded with what? Telestial glory? Terrestrial glory? We try to elevate people to Celestial glory.....but there are kingdoms within kingdoms. Many many MANY MANY of our members fall short of Celestial glory. But they have a place in the church. Lets give one to people who struggle with bieng gay. If Terrestrial glory is their cut-off....lets help them get the highest degree of it.

If you wrote this post over at Mormons Building Bridges, you would be slammed, and called names, and then deleted. First of all, they are highly offended at any mention that they are "struggling". They say this implies that there is something wrong in being and acting gay. They believe they are born perfect, including being gay. Secondly, when Pres Oaks talked about the Terrestrial Kingdom for gays who choose to act on it, they were in an uproar. They called him every name in the book for daring to suggest that their LGBTQ attributes and activities will keep them out of the celestial kingdom. They say we are a hateful bigoted homophobic church for teaching crap like that. They are lobbying for full inclusion in the LDS church based on their right to religious freedom, to be LDS without being told they are "less than".

Welcome to crazy town. No middle ground from the LGBTQ point of view. No middle ground from my point of view. No middle ground from God's point of view.

[thestock]

So what? Let them organize. Let them talk about it. Let them try. Whatever they want to spend their energy and resources on......give them that agency. As for the Church.....the position is clear. Not sure what else I can say about it.....I am tired of leaders speaking on this issue. The best way to deal with annoying people who bother you is not to engage them. Just be respectful towards them, and that is it. They've said their piece.....that is enough.

The church has taught the correct doctrine, why won't the LGBTQ community leave it alone? The LGBTQ community should just stop teaching their false ideas. I am tired of them speaking on this issue but as long as they preach their false ideas to church members, the church has the responsibility to make sure correct doctrine is taught. If the gay community will stop preaching their flagrant sins as acceptable behavior, I bet you the church will stop trying to correct their false teachings. Have you told the gay community that the church has spoken their peace and to leave it at that?

No I dont interact with the gay community. I know some people who are gay, and I dont have any problems with them whatsoever. They are nice and hard working people. Again if the gay community is organizing against the Church, let them organize! Let them do whatever is in their agency to do. Christ taught us to turn the other cheek. Most of them just want a safe space in the Church. Put yourself in their shoes.....imagine you actually have same sex attraction and you are struggling with it. Occasionally you screw up, but mostly you are doing things correctly. But you come to Church where A) The Leaders are talking constantly about it, and B) The church members mostly as a whole voice their disgust with the lifestyle and those who "choose" it. How would that feel? Would you want to remain in the Church? Would you just up and leave? Perhaps you feel like its not fair that gay people and others dont have a place in the Church.

Lets take a look at our own doctrine. We believe that gay people who choose to act out their gay lifestyles can be rewarded with what? Telestial glory? Terrestrial glory? We try to elevate people to Celestial glory.....but there are kingdoms within kingdoms. Many many MANY MANY of our members fall short of Celestial glory. But they have a place in the church. Lets give one to people who struggle with bieng gay. If Terrestrial glory is their cut-off....lets help them get the highest degree of it.

If you wrote this post over at Mormons Building Bridges, you would be slammed, and called names, and then deleted. First of all, they are highly offended at any mention that they are "struggling". They say this implies that there is something wrong in being and acting gay. They believe they are born perfect, including being gay. Secondly, when Pres Oaks talked about the Terrestrial Kingdom for gays who choose to act on it, they were in an uproar. They called him every name in the book for daring to suggest that their LGBTQ attributes and activities will keep them out of the celestial kingdom. They say we are a hateful bigoted homophobic church for teaching crap like that. They are lobbying for full inclusion in the LDS church based on their right to religious freedom, to be LDS without being told they are "less than".

Welcome to crazy town. No middle ground from the LGBTQ point of view. No middle ground from my point of view. No middle ground from God's point of view.

Is this thread meant to address a middle ground with Mormons Building Bridges or a middle ground with the Church and gay marriage?

[catcatinabox]

Look man, I'm trying to be nice and kind here. You wanted someone to understand where you were coming from; yet you are unwilling to do the same for others.

I gave you my response, yet instead of trying to understand where I was coming from you said that my sincere response to you was
"absurd and disagree with it. Also, I dont think other people being gay will affect your kids too much."

I acknowledge to you IF it is inborn, innate and unchangeable then we have much to change. IF I believed that were the case-I would probably be on your side.

However, I do not believe it is inborn, innate or unchangeable. You cannot seem to even conceptualize that viewpoint. You dismiss out of hand my great concerns for my children. You dismiss it as "absurd". So exactly who is the one who is being unkind and unwilling to listen?

There is a big 'ol mirror right in front of you.

I primarily have the viewpoint that it is neither inborn, innate, nor unchangeable (especially that) because of Christ. To say it is unchangeable is to deny the reality of Christ's power to give men a "new heart" and to become "new creatures" to be "born again". I believe to compromise on this will ultimately lead to a complete and utter dissolution of Christianity in effect.

You either preach through Christ ALL mankind can be changed into new creatures with new desires, new habits, new hearts or you don't.
I can certainly understand how LGBTQ can feel "picked on" so to speak. And yes I do agree in many ways the Church does not preach about Christ's ability to change us enough and relies too heavily on psycobabble, pyscologists, psychiatris, and modern techniques rather than simply Faith in Christ. I do believe if we truly believed Christ, this wouldn't be an issue and that we have compromised our beliefs in Christ on many issues-not just this.

However, this is a line in the sand. This falls and the whole of Christianity falls, it will say the name Jesus but not have any idea of what He can do-it will be dead.

You took offense at me saying my opinion about your opinion is absurd. I can see now how that could make you upset. People say rude things to me all the time about my opinion. I try to realize they dont have the same life experience, views, or opinions as me and that is okay, so I usually respond with "you are entitled to your opinion etc" without trying to criticize them.

I apologize for being critical of your opinion. Yes I 100% believe homosexuality is not a choice for most people. Nobody would choose to the unwanted consequences of being gay over the history of humanity if it was a choice. They suffer those consequences because they are acting out their biology the same as me acting out my biology of attraction to women. The only difference is the Church recognizes my marriage to a woman and wont do the same for homosexuals. I get why they cant, but I do think we need to try harder to understand them and try to find a place for them in our church.

This situation merits a reminder of Christ dealing with the women taken in adultery. The pharisees tried to get him to condemn the woman, and he instead condemned them, saying it is not their place to judge a person whos shoes they have not walked in while they remain needful of repenting of their own sins.

We should try to take that to heart when dealing with homosexuals in general. We havent walked in their shoes. We can show compassion and support. We can be a light and not a source of anxiety for them.

I appreciate the apology thank you.

I wasn't offended by what you said-it didn't offend me. I was pointing out how you were not affording me the same thing that you wanted-i.e. for me to understand your position.

I don't believe this statement in the least bit.
"Nobody would choose to the unwanted consequences of being gay over the history of humanity if it was a choice."

Why would someone NOT choose it? We can make that statement about many, many things.
Why would someone choose to do drugs and take all the unwanted consequences?
(no-one WANTS to have drugs destroy their life)
Why would someone choose to do commit adultery and take all the unwanted consequences?
Why would someone choose to do kill another human being and take all the unwanted consequences?
(no-one WANTS to go to jail)

Just because you or I or even many people don't understand why someone would do something-doesn't mean people don't choose it; people do.
It's a logical fallacy used to play on people's sympathies and good-nature.

That's why I say it is a fundamental misunderstanding (intentional or not) of human nature. Which is man is fallen and people do stupid things all the time, people do things all the time that others say "Why would you do that!!!!!?????" Some people are rebellious, some people are obedient, some are risk-takers, some are not, some like to push the line and see how much they can get away with and some do not.

There is a bottom-line reason why people commit sin-why they engage in homosexuality, adultery, pornography, murder, theft, etc. Because in the moment-they like it! As hard as it is to comprehend, yes some people like sin-they enjoy defying the establish order, rebelling against God, they enjoy what they are doing-or they simply wouldn't do it.

People say stopping sin (porn, adultery, homosexuality, etc.) is about willpower-but it's not. It's about changing your will. Everything you do, everything you ponder on and desire is a manifestation of your will. The key is giving your will over to God and then you only desire what God desires.

I hear you, I still just disagree. We all struggle with different crosses to bear. Some people are genetically proned to struggle with alcoholism or drugs. Some people grow up in an environment of abuse and neglect where violence is a part of daily life and they struggle with violence later in life. Some people are genetically dispositioned to be attracted to the same sex. Some people are dispositioned to be attracted to the opposite sex and have a sexual addiction there, too. None of us "chooses" these impulses and these problems. As recently as 20 years ago beating up gay people (a hate crime) was pretty common. Gay jokes. Using homosexual slurs. Does anyone use a slur about alcoholics against random people? Do people use slurs against white serial adulterers in everyday conversation? Nobody would CHOOSE to deal with those issues. If people are gay, it is something they struggle with.....and it brings whatever fleeting joy it brings and it brings those nasty consequences too.

I said learned. Yes behavior is learned. It's not genes. A significant part of our mortal experience is learned.

There is no homosexual gene, there is no gene for alcoholism, there is no gene for abuse. Those aren't genes. The entire human genome has been mapped and there still is no genes. It just doesn't exist.

Every single article that proclaims they have found a gene is simply selling themselves. When you read the report, when you look at the data you find the head-line of "gene found for blah" to be false. The largest study to date stated somewhere around 1% is accounted for by genes.

Finally, if it were genetic-every single homosexual who has a twin-would also be homosexual. Twins have the EXACT SAME GENES-therefore they both would be homosexual. They would have to be . . .but they aren't . ..b/c genes is not the determining factor.

[thestock]

You took offense at me saying my opinion about your opinion is absurd. I can see now how that could make you upset. People say rude things to me all the time about my opinion. I try to realize they dont have the same life experience, views, or opinions as me and that is okay, so I usually respond with "you are entitled to your opinion etc" without trying to criticize them.

I apologize for being critical of your opinion. Yes I 100% believe homosexuality is not a choice for most people. Nobody would choose to the unwanted consequences of being gay over the history of humanity if it was a choice. They suffer those consequences because they are acting out their biology the same as me acting out my biology of attraction to women. The only difference is the Church recognizes my marriage to a woman and wont do the same for homosexuals. I get why they cant, but I do think we need to try harder to understand them and try to find a place for them in our church.

This situation merits a reminder of Christ dealing with the women taken in adultery. The pharisees tried to get him to condemn the woman, and he instead condemned them, saying it is not their place to judge a person whos shoes they have not walked in while they remain needful of repenting of their own sins.

We should try to take that to heart when dealing with homosexuals in general. We havent walked in their shoes. We can show compassion and support. We can be a light and not a source of anxiety for them.

I appreciate the apology thank you.

I wasn't offended by what you said-it didn't offend me. I was pointing out how you were not affording me the same thing that you wanted-i.e. for me to understand your position.

I don't believe this statement in the least bit.
"Nobody would choose to the unwanted consequences of being gay over the history of humanity if it was a choice."

Why would someone NOT choose it? We can make that statement about many, many things.
Why would someone choose to do drugs and take all the unwanted consequences?
(no-one WANTS to have drugs destroy their life)
Why would someone choose to do commit adultery and take all the unwanted consequences?
Why would someone choose to do kill another human being and take all the unwanted consequences?
(no-one WANTS to go to jail)

Just because you or I or even many people don't understand why someone would do something-doesn't mean people don't choose it; people do.
It's a logical fallacy used to play on people's sympathies and good-nature.

That's why I say it is a fundamental misunderstanding (intentional or not) of human nature. Which is man is fallen and people do stupid things all the time, people do things all the time that others say "Why would you do that!!!!!?????" Some people are rebellious, some people are obedient, some are risk-takers, some are not, some like to push the line and see how much they can get away with and some do not.

There is a bottom-line reason why people commit sin-why they engage in homosexuality, adultery, pornography, murder, theft, etc. Because in the moment-they like it! As hard as it is to comprehend, yes some people like sin-they enjoy defying the establish order, rebelling against God, they enjoy what they are doing-or they simply wouldn't do it.

People say stopping sin (porn, adultery, homosexuality, etc.) is about willpower-but it's not. It's about changing your will. Everything you do, everything you ponder on and desire is a manifestation of your will. The key is giving your will over to God and then you only desire what God desires.

I hear you, I still just disagree. We all struggle with different crosses to bear. Some people are genetically proned to struggle with alcoholism or drugs. Some people grow up in an environment of abuse and neglect where violence is a part of daily life and they struggle with violence later in life. Some people are genetically dispositioned to be attracted to the same sex. Some people are dispositioned to be attracted to the opposite sex and have a sexual addiction there, too. None of us "chooses" these impulses and these problems. As recently as 20 years ago beating up gay people (a hate crime) was pretty common. Gay jokes. Using homosexual slurs. Does anyone use a slur about alcoholics against random people? Do people use slurs against white serial adulterers in everyday conversation? Nobody would CHOOSE to deal with those issues. If people are gay, it is something they struggle with.....and it brings whatever fleeting joy it brings and it brings those nasty consequences too.

I said learned. Yes behavior is learned. It's not genes. A significant part of our mortal experience is learned.

There is no homosexual gene, there is no gene for alcoholism, there is no gene for abuse. Those aren't genes. The entire human genome has been mapped and there still is no genes. It just doesn't exist.

Every single article that proclaims they have found a gene is simply selling themselves. When you read the report, when you look at the data you find the head-line of "gene found for blah" to be false. The largest study to date stated somewhere around 1% is accounted for by genes.

Finally, if it were genetic-every single homosexual who has a twin-would also be homosexual. Twins have the EXACT SAME GENES-therefore they both would be homosexual. They would have to be . . .but they aren't . ..b/c genes is not the determining factor.

Agree to disagree.

[Serragon]

No one tries to find middle ground with their oppressor.

They view you as their oppressor. You are responsible for their being victims. They don't wish to meet you half way. They wish to overthrow you. They won't quit, even if they have full equality in the church. They must always be the victim to be special. Without their victimhood, they are nothing more than deviants doing weird stuff. Their power lies in the myth that their worship of the natural man is good and that you are the reason for all of their woes.

But they really believe you are an oppressor, so they really hate you. They want you to change your view, apologize, and then fade into the background for the rest of your life. You have no place in society. They wish you weren't here. They would be happy if you died.

This is the radical left. They are the ones pushing all of this. They truly hate you. Most on the left don't go this far, but they agree with the principle and let the crazies lead them around because they like the result. There is no middle ground with these folks. There is no power in equality. There is power in victimhood.

Blacks have had full equality for over 50 years. They have legal advantages in attending colleges and getting hired. every government school and agency has courses and classes on racism and oppression. You have to look extremely hard to find a white person under 40 who is a real racist. Yet we are still told that racism is the number one problem in society and that racism is why black kids and communities are failing. You are still the oppressor, no matter what you do. If you remove the oppressor, you remove the power that comes from victimhood.

Environmentalists have shut down whole industries in this country and destroyed rural communities. They have kept reservoirs empty and let farm land go barren. They won't allow nuclear power but rage against fossil fuels. They have created the environment for massive wildfires destroying lives and property. They have reintroduced animals to areas that have subsequently made it more expensive and difficult for the farmers there to make a living. We have less access to public lands then ever before. We have less use of private lands then ever before. Yet you are still the oppressor. You need to give up more. You need to disappear. If you don't believe it we will let young indoctrinated teens harangue you and accuse you of ruining hopes, dreams, and lives. You can never stop being the oppressor. The environment will never be safe, no matter how much you give up.

Homosexuals can now be married. They can't be discriminated against. But it isn't enough. They are still oppressed. You must bake cakes for their weddings. You must seal them in the temple. You must accept fully their behaviors and practices. You will always be their oppressor, no matter how much you give up.

There is no middle ground. There is only ceded territory. We need to learn our lesson from the past. You cannot bargain with the devil. They want you gone. They want you to disappear. They are self-righteous in their victimhood so cannot be wrong.

This is why it is so distressing to see the Church trying to be more accomodating to homosexuality. It is a path to ruin. We are attempting to hold a line at marriage and sexual activity while allowing people to indulge in their homosexuality up to that point. This is untenable in the long run. I appreciate the statements by our leaders in the last conference about this topic. But I know church history so I realize those statements are only good up until the next statement.

I doubt Brigham Young could have ever envisioned a time when the Church would treat polygamy as a greater sin than homosexuality, yet here we are. People are excommunicated for doing what multiple prophets of God said was essential for exaltation. Yet there might not even be church discipline for two men who get married depending upon the sensibilities of their bishop. Who will we be excommunicating 50 years from now?

[catcatinabox]

I appreciate the apology thank you.

I wasn't offended by what you said-it didn't offend me. I was pointing out how you were not affording me the same thing that you wanted-i.e. for me to understand your position.

I don't believe this statement in the least bit.
"Nobody would choose to the unwanted consequences of being gay over the history of humanity if it was a choice."

Why would someone NOT choose it? We can make that statement about many, many things.
Why would someone choose to do drugs and take all the unwanted consequences?
(no-one WANTS to have drugs destroy their life)
Why would someone choose to do commit adultery and take all the unwanted consequences?
Why would someone choose to do kill another human being and take all the unwanted consequences?
(no-one WANTS to go to jail)

Just because you or I or even many people don't understand why someone would do something-doesn't mean people don't choose it; people do.
It's a logical fallacy used to play on people's sympathies and good-nature.

That's why I say it is a fundamental misunderstanding (intentional or not) of human nature. Which is man is fallen and people do stupid things all the time, people do things all the time that others say "Why would you do that!!!!!?????" Some people are rebellious, some people are obedient, some are risk-takers, some are not, some like to push the line and see how much they can get away with and some do not.

There is a bottom-line reason why people commit sin-why they engage in homosexuality, adultery, pornography, murder, theft, etc. Because in the moment-they like it! As hard as it is to comprehend, yes some people like sin-they enjoy defying the establish order, rebelling against God, they enjoy what they are doing-or they simply wouldn't do it.

People say stopping sin (porn, adultery, homosexuality, etc.) is about willpower-but it's not. It's about changing your will. Everything you do, everything you ponder on and desire is a manifestation of your will. The key is giving your will over to God and then you only desire what God desires.

I hear you, I still just disagree. We all struggle with different crosses to bear. Some people are genetically proned to struggle with alcoholism or drugs. Some people grow up in an environment of abuse and neglect where violence is a part of daily life and they struggle with violence later in life. Some people are genetically dispositioned to be attracted to the same sex. Some people are dispositioned to be attracted to the opposite sex and have a sexual addiction there, too. None of us "chooses" these impulses and these problems. As recently as 20 years ago beating up gay people (a hate crime) was pretty common. Gay jokes. Using homosexual slurs. Does anyone use a slur about alcoholics against random people? Do people use slurs against white serial adulterers in everyday conversation? Nobody would CHOOSE to deal with those issues. If people are gay, it is something they struggle with.....and it brings whatever fleeting joy it brings and it brings those nasty consequences too.

I said learned. Yes behavior is learned. It's not genes. A significant part of our mortal experience is learned.

There is no homosexual gene, there is no gene for alcoholism, there is no gene for abuse. Those aren't genes. The entire human genome has been mapped and there still is no genes. It just doesn't exist.

Every single article that proclaims they have found a gene is simply selling themselves. When you read the report, when you look at the data you find the head-line of "gene found for blah" to be false. The largest study to date stated somewhere around 1% is accounted for by genes.

Finally, if it were genetic-every single homosexual who has a twin-would also be homosexual. Twins have the EXACT SAME GENES-therefore they both would be homosexual. They would have to be . . .but they aren't . ..b/c genes is not the determining factor.

Agree to disagree.

This isn't an agree to disagree.

It is either true or not. Either there is a gene or there isn't (you could claim they haven't found it yet).

It is 100% easy to prove there is no homosexual gene. It is a piece of cake.
The proof is thus. If homosexuality is caused by a gene then every single twin who has a homosexual brother/sister- must be homosexual.

The undeniable fact (not opinion, but fact) that they are not means that something else is going on. It means that there is something else besides genes and environment that is influencing people to be homosexual.

How do you explain for this fact (not opinion, but fact) that a homosexual twin does not mean their sibling is homosexual?

[thestock]

I hear you, I still just disagree. We all struggle with different crosses to bear. Some people are genetically proned to struggle with alcoholism or drugs. Some people grow up in an environment of abuse and neglect where violence is a part of daily life and they struggle with violence later in life. Some people are genetically dispositioned to be attracted to the same sex. Some people are dispositioned to be attracted to the opposite sex and have a sexual addiction there, too. None of us "chooses" these impulses and these problems. As recently as 20 years ago beating up gay people (a hate crime) was pretty common. Gay jokes. Using homosexual slurs. Does anyone use a slur about alcoholics against random people? Do people use slurs against white serial adulterers in everyday conversation? Nobody would CHOOSE to deal with those issues. If people are gay, it is something they struggle with.....and it brings whatever fleeting joy it brings and it brings those nasty consequences too.

I said learned. Yes behavior is learned. It's not genes. A significant part of our mortal experience is learned.

There is no homosexual gene, there is no gene for alcoholism, there is no gene for abuse. Those aren't genes. The entire human genome has been mapped and there still is no genes. It just doesn't exist.

Every single article that proclaims they have found a gene is simply selling themselves. When you read the report, when you look at the data you find the head-line of "gene found for blah" to be false. The largest study to date stated somewhere around 1% is accounted for by genes.

Finally, if it were genetic-every single homosexual who has a twin-would also be homosexual. Twins have the EXACT SAME GENES-therefore they both would be homosexual. They would have to be . . .but they aren't . ..b/c genes is not the determining factor.

Agree to disagree.

This isn't an agree to disagree.

It is either true or not. Either there is a gene or there isn't (you could claim they haven't found it yet).

It is 100% easy to prove there is no homosexual gene. It is a piece of cake.
The proof is thus. If homosexuality is caused by a gene then every single twin who has a homosexual brother/sister- must be homosexual.

The undeniable fact (not opinion, but fact) that they are not means that something else is going on. It means that there is something else besides genes and environment that is influencing people to be homosexual.

How do you explain for this fact (not opinion, but fact) that a homosexual twin does not mean their sibling is homosexual?

I am no longer willing to debate you on this. You can call that a victory if you like. If you will not allow me to disagree with you.....that is only a you problem, because I do, and I do not need to prove anything to you. I am not a scientist. But the assertion that a gay person is gay by choice the same way I am heterosexual by choice and not biology does not compute with me.

[Art Vandelay]

No I dont interact with the gay community. I know some people who are gay, and I dont have any problems with them whatsoever. They are nice and hard working people. Again if the gay community is organizing against the Church, let them organize! Let them do whatever is in their agency to do. Christ taught us to turn the other cheek. Most of them just want a safe space in the Church. Put yourself in their shoes.....imagine you actually have same sex attraction and you are struggling with it. Occasionally you screw up, but mostly you are doing things correctly. But you come to Church where A) The Leaders are talking constantly about it, and B) The church members mostly as a whole voice their disgust with the lifestyle and those who "choose" it. How would that feel? Would you want to remain in the Church? Would you just up and leave? Perhaps you feel like its not fair that gay people and others dont have a place in the Church.

Lets take a look at our own doctrine. We believe that gay people who choose to act out their gay lifestyles can be rewarded with what? Telestial glory? Terrestrial glory? We try to elevate people to Celestial glory.....but there are kingdoms within kingdoms. Many many MANY MANY of our members fall short of Celestial glory. But they have a place in the church. Lets give one to people who struggle with bieng gay. If Terrestrial glory is their cut-off....lets help them get the highest degree of it.

I have friends who are gay and we get along just fine.

Gay people are welcome in church just like the rest of us sinners are welcome. Smokers are allowed in church but if they smoke in church they'll be asked to leave. If they preach that smoking is OK they'll be corrected. If they continue the behavior they'll be asked to leave. Then there will probably be some Word of Wisdom talks and lessons in church making sure everyone knows that smoking is not OK.
Church is not a place to argue that your sin isn't actually a sin nor is it a place to promote your contrary behaviors. It's not a place to get support for your sin. Wearing rainbow ties to show support is about as stupid as wearing a tie with naked ladies on it to show support for those addicted to pornography. Those addicted to pornography come to church but they don't brag about their sin and if they do they'll be asked to leave. Same with the gay community. We as a church will support the person but not their sin. Gays seem to want support for their sin.

[thestock]

No I dont interact with the gay community. I know some people who are gay, and I dont have any problems with them whatsoever. They are nice and hard working people. Again if the gay community is organizing against the Church, let them organize! Let them do whatever is in their agency to do. Christ taught us to turn the other cheek. Most of them just want a safe space in the Church. Put yourself in their shoes.....imagine you actually have same sex attraction and you are struggling with it. Occasionally you screw up, but mostly you are doing things correctly. But you come to Church where A) The Leaders are talking constantly about it, and B) The church members mostly as a whole voice their disgust with the lifestyle and those who "choose" it. How would that feel? Would you want to remain in the Church? Would you just up and leave? Perhaps you feel like its not fair that gay people and others dont have a place in the Church.

Lets take a look at our own doctrine. We believe that gay people who choose to act out their gay lifestyles can be rewarded with what? Telestial glory? Terrestrial glory? We try to elevate people to Celestial glory.....but there are kingdoms within kingdoms. Many many MANY MANY of our members fall short of Celestial glory. But they have a place in the church. Lets give one to people who struggle with bieng gay. If Terrestrial glory is their cut-off....lets help them get the highest degree of it.

I have friends who are gay and we get along just fine.

Gay people are welcome in church just like the rest of us sinners are welcome. Smokers are allowed in church but if they smoke in church they'll be asked to leave. If they preach that smoking is OK they'll be corrected. If they continue the behavior they'll be asked to leave. Then there will probably be some Word of Wisdom talks and lessons in church making sure everyone knows that smoking is not OK.
Church is not a place to argue that your sin isn't actually a sin nor is it a place to promote your contrary behaviors. It's not a place to get support for your sin. Wearing rainbow ties to show support is about as stupid as wearing a tie with naked ladies on it to show support for those addicted to pornography. Those addicted to pornography come to church but they don't brag about their sin and if they do they'll be asked to leave. Same with the gay community. We as a church will support the person but not their sin. Gays seem to want support for their sin.

I live on the East coast, recently moved from one state to another. I've had several openly gay people attend the wards I am in. None of them acts the way you are describing.

[catcatinabox]

I said learned. Yes behavior is learned. It's not genes. A significant part of our mortal experience is learned.

There is no homosexual gene, there is no gene for alcoholism, there is no gene for abuse. Those aren't genes. The entire human genome has been mapped and there still is no genes. It just doesn't exist.

Every single article that proclaims they have found a gene is simply selling themselves. When you read the report, when you look at the data you find the head-line of "gene found for blah" to be false. The largest study to date stated somewhere around 1% is accounted for by genes.

Finally, if it were genetic-every single homosexual who has a twin-would also be homosexual. Twins have the EXACT SAME GENES-therefore they both would be homosexual. They would have to be . . .but they aren't . ..b/c genes is not the determining factor.

Agree to disagree.

This isn't an agree to disagree.

It is either true or not. Either there is a gene or there isn't (you could claim they haven't found it yet).

It is 100% easy to prove there is no homosexual gene. It is a piece of cake.
The proof is thus. If homosexuality is caused by a gene then every single twin who has a homosexual brother/sister- must be homosexual.

The undeniable fact (not opinion, but fact) that they are not means that something else is going on. It means that there is something else besides genes and environment that is influencing people to be homosexual.

How do you explain for this fact (not opinion, but fact) that a homosexual twin does not mean their sibling is homosexual?

I am no longer willing to debate you on this. You can call that a victory if you like. If you will not allow me to disagree with you.....that is only a you problem, because I do, and I do not need to prove anything to you. I am not a scientist. But the assertion that a gay person is gay by choice the same way I am heterosexual by choice and not biology does not compute with me.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

What you have is a belief, a feeling that homosexuals don't have a choice. You are welcome to that belief-absolutely.

However, your belief needs to be consistent. When it's not you get cognitive dissonance. Which is exactly what you have right now.

You believe really, really, really badly that homosexuality is not by choice but by biology. Okay, fine.
Then how does your belief account for twins which come from the same egg, same sperm, which have the same DNA where one is homosexual and one is not?

You're belief that it is biology cannot stand up in the face of these facts. Which means you can either be dogmatic in the face of all evidence and reason (that's fine) or you can find a way to resolve these contradictions and modify your belief.

If you are unwilling to recognize the contradictions and attempt to solve them, then you can simply admit your viewpoint is one based on faith-i.e. it is a religious ideology and one that you can't prove. Again, that's fine just be honest with it. Unfortunately, you do prove the point that most individuals simply follow the dogmatic crowd-the power of belief in the face of overwhelming facts is quite impressive.

[Serragon]

No I dont interact with the gay community. I know some people who are gay, and I dont have any problems with them whatsoever. They are nice and hard working people. Again if the gay community is organizing against the Church, let them organize! Let them do whatever is in their agency to do. Christ taught us to turn the other cheek. Most of them just want a safe space in the Church. Put yourself in their shoes.....imagine you actually have same sex attraction and you are struggling with it. Occasionally you screw up, but mostly you are doing things correctly. But you come to Church where A) The Leaders are talking constantly about it, and B) The church members mostly as a whole voice their disgust with the lifestyle and those who "choose" it. How would that feel? Would you want to remain in the Church? Would you just up and leave? Perhaps you feel like its not fair that gay people and others dont have a place in the Church.

Lets take a look at our own doctrine. We believe that gay people who choose to act out their gay lifestyles can be rewarded with what? Telestial glory? Terrestrial glory? We try to elevate people to Celestial glory.....but there are kingdoms within kingdoms. Many many MANY MANY of our members fall short of Celestial glory. But they have a place in the church. Lets give one to people who struggle with bieng gay. If Terrestrial glory is their cut-off....lets help them get the highest degree of it.

I have friends who are gay and we get along just fine.

Gay people are welcome in church just like the rest of us sinners are welcome. Smokers are allowed in church but if they smoke in church they'll be asked to leave. If they preach that smoking is OK they'll be corrected. If they continue the behavior they'll be asked to leave. Then there will probably be some Word of Wisdom talks and lessons in church making sure everyone knows that smoking is not OK.
Church is not a place to argue that your sin isn't actually a sin nor is it a place to promote your contrary behaviors. It's not a place to get support for your sin. Wearing rainbow ties to show support is about as stupid as wearing a tie with naked ladies on it to show support for those addicted to pornography. Those addicted to pornography come to church but they don't brag about their sin and if they do they'll be asked to leave. Same with the gay community. We as a church will support the person but not their sin. Gays seem to want support for their sin.

I live on the East coast, recently moved from one state to another. I've had several openly gay people attend the wards I am in. None of them acts the way you are describing.

How is it that you know they are homosexual?

[catcatinabox]

No I dont interact with the gay community. I know some people who are gay, and I dont have any problems with them whatsoever. They are nice and hard working people. Again if the gay community is organizing against the Church, let them organize! Let them do whatever is in their agency to do. Christ taught us to turn the other cheek. Most of them just want a safe space in the Church. Put yourself in their shoes.....imagine you actually have same sex attraction and you are struggling with it. Occasionally you screw up, but mostly you are doing things correctly. But you come to Church where A) The Leaders are talking constantly about it, and B) The church members mostly as a whole voice their disgust with the lifestyle and those who "choose" it. How would that feel? Would you want to remain in the Church? Would you just up and leave? Perhaps you feel like its not fair that gay people and others dont have a place in the Church.

Lets take a look at our own doctrine. We believe that gay people who choose to act out their gay lifestyles can be rewarded with what? Telestial glory? Terrestrial glory? We try to elevate people to Celestial glory.....but there are kingdoms within kingdoms. Many many MANY MANY of our members fall short of Celestial glory. But they have a place in the church. Lets give one to people who struggle with bieng gay. If Terrestrial glory is their cut-off....lets help them get the highest degree of it.

I have friends who are gay and we get along just fine.

Gay people are welcome in church just like the rest of us sinners are welcome. Smokers are allowed in church but if they smoke in church they'll be asked to leave. If they preach that smoking is OK they'll be corrected. If they continue the behavior they'll be asked to leave. Then there will probably be some Word of Wisdom talks and lessons in church making sure everyone knows that smoking is not OK.
Church is not a place to argue that your sin isn't actually a sin nor is it a place to promote your contrary behaviors. It's not a place to get support for your sin. Wearing rainbow ties to show support is about as stupid as wearing a tie with naked ladies on it to show support for those addicted to pornography. Those addicted to pornography come to church but they don't brag about their sin and if they do they'll be asked to leave. Same with the gay community. We as a church will support the person but not their sin. Gays seem to want support for their sin.

I live on the East coast, recently moved from one state to another. I've had several openly gay people attend the wards I am in. None of them acts the way you are describing.

Do you have open pornographers?
Do you have open pedophiles attending?

Would you treat the open pedophile who doesn't act on it the same way?
Would you treat the open pornographer who proclaims he lusts after strange women the same way?

[thestock]

Agree to disagree.

This isn't an agree to disagree.

It is either true or not. Either there is a gene or there isn't (you could claim they haven't found it yet).

It is 100% easy to prove there is no homosexual gene. It is a piece of cake.
The proof is thus. If homosexuality is caused by a gene then every single twin who has a homosexual brother/sister- must be homosexual.

The undeniable fact (not opinion, but fact) that they are not means that something else is going on. It means that there is something else besides genes and environment that is influencing people to be homosexual.

How do you explain for this fact (not opinion, but fact) that a homosexual twin does not mean their sibling is homosexual?

I am no longer willing to debate you on this. You can call that a victory if you like. If you will not allow me to disagree with you.....that is only a you problem, because I do, and I do not need to prove anything to you. I am not a scientist. But the assertion that a gay person is gay by choice the same way I am heterosexual by choice and not biology does not compute with me.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

What you have is a belief, a feeling that homosexuals don't have a choice. You are welcome to that belief-absolutely.

However, your belief needs to be consistent. When it's not you get cognitive dissonance. Which is exactly what you have right now.

You believe really, really, really badly that homosexuality is not by choice but by biology. Okay, fine.
Then how does your belief account for twins which come from the same egg, same sperm, which have the same DNA where one is homosexual and one is not?

You're belief that it is biology cannot stand up in the face of these facts. Which means you can either be dogmatic in the face of all evidence and reason (that's fine) or you can find a way to resolve these contradictions and modify your belief.

If you are unwilling to recognize the contradictions and attempt to solve them, then you can simply admit your viewpoint is one based on faith-i.e. it is a religious ideology and one that you can't prove. Again, that's fine just be honest with it. Unfortunately, you do prove the point that most individuals simply follow the dogmatic crowd-the power of belief in the face of overwhelming facts is quite impressive.

Whatever you say. It matters not really. What matters is how we treat people. I wont take my example on how to treat gay people from you.

[Art Vandelay]

I am not a scientist. But the assertion that a gay person is gay by choice the same way I am heterosexual by choice and not biology does not compute with me.

I agree with you on this. I don't necessarily believe homosexuality is a choice. I don't think it's in their genes either. How one responds to being gay is a choice just like it's a choice on how one responds to being "straight". I know many people who have not been married, some are old, but they still keep themselves chaste. If a straight person can live a chaste life as a single person so can a gay person, and many gay people already do.

[thestock]

No I dont interact with the gay community. I know some people who are gay, and I dont have any problems with them whatsoever. They are nice and hard working people. Again if the gay community is organizing against the Church, let them organize! Let them do whatever is in their agency to do. Christ taught us to turn the other cheek. Most of them just want a safe space in the Church. Put yourself in their shoes.....imagine you actually have same sex attraction and you are struggling with it. Occasionally you screw up, but mostly you are doing things correctly. But you come to Church where A) The Leaders are talking constantly about it, and B) The church members mostly as a whole voice their disgust with the lifestyle and those who "choose" it. How would that feel? Would you want to remain in the Church? Would you just up and leave? Perhaps you feel like its not fair that gay people and others dont have a place in the Church.

Lets take a look at our own doctrine. We believe that gay people who choose to act out their gay lifestyles can be rewarded with what? Telestial glory? Terrestrial glory? We try to elevate people to Celestial glory.....but there are kingdoms within kingdoms. Many many MANY MANY of our members fall short of Celestial glory. But they have a place in the church. Lets give one to people who struggle with bieng gay. If Terrestrial glory is their cut-off....lets help them get the highest degree of it.

I have friends who are gay and we get along just fine.

Gay people are welcome in church just like the rest of us sinners are welcome. Smokers are allowed in church but if they smoke in church they'll be asked to leave. If they preach that smoking is OK they'll be corrected. If they continue the behavior they'll be asked to leave. Then there will probably be some Word of Wisdom talks and lessons in church making sure everyone knows that smoking is not OK.
Church is not a place to argue that your sin isn't actually a sin nor is it a place to promote your contrary behaviors. It's not a place to get support for your sin. Wearing rainbow ties to show support is about as stupid as wearing a tie with naked ladies on it to show support for those addicted to pornography. Those addicted to pornography come to church but they don't brag about their sin and if they do they'll be asked to leave. Same with the gay community. We as a church will support the person but not their sin. Gays seem to want support for their sin.

I live on the East coast, recently moved from one state to another. I've had several openly gay people attend the wards I am in. None of them acts the way you are describing.

Do you have open pornographers?
Do you have open pedophiles attending?

Would you treat the open pedophile who doesn't act on it the same way?
Would you treat the open pornographer who proclaims he lusts after strange women the same way?

Irrelevant to the discussion. Yes, I try to treat all people with respect. Doesnt always work out that way...but I try. I like that approach better than putting labels on people and sticking them into a corner for me to point fingers at while I tear them down and move them out the door.

[thestock]

I am not a scientist. But the assertion that a gay person is gay by choice the same way I am heterosexual by choice and not biology does not compute with me.

I agree with you on this. I don't necessarily believe homosexuality is a choice. I don't think it's in their genes either. How one responds to being gay is a choice just like it's a choice on how one responds to being "straight". I know many people who have not been married, some are old, but they still keep themselves chaste. If a straight person can live a chaste life as a single person so can a gay person, and many gay people already do.

Careful there Art! Agreeing with me will certainly invite scorn for you on this board.

Seriously though.....well put my friend. How we respond is everything. I dont see most alcoholic church members I know with a beer in their hand at Church. They do very well most of the time, and they screw up from time to time....then they get back up and keep trying. Its the same for gay people that come to Church. The ones that are out living a lewd lifestyle arent much into going to Church. The ones that are really trying often screw up....but then they keep trying. That is what I have seen. We had a guy who's wife left him because he came out as gay (he wasnt cheating though). She divorced him and took the kids and left. He kept coming to Church. He sat alone for a long time, because once his secret was out, people treated him differently.

That breaks my heart. Its sad to see. I wish I didnt have to see it with people that struggle.....but one thing I have learned about humans is that our natural tendency is to be A-holes towards one another.....unfortunately.

[catcatinabox]

This isn't an agree to disagree.

It is either true or not. Either there is a gene or there isn't (you could claim they haven't found it yet).

It is 100% easy to prove there is no homosexual gene. It is a piece of cake.
The proof is thus. If homosexuality is caused by a gene then every single twin who has a homosexual brother/sister- must be homosexual.

The undeniable fact (not opinion, but fact) that they are not means that something else is going on. It means that there is something else besides genes and environment that is influencing people to be homosexual.

How do you explain for this fact (not opinion, but fact) that a homosexual twin does not mean their sibling is homosexual?

I am no longer willing to debate you on this. You can call that a victory if you like. If you will not allow me to disagree with you.....that is only a you problem, because I do, and I do not need to prove anything to you. I am not a scientist. But the assertion that a gay person is gay by choice the same way I am heterosexual by choice and not biology does not compute with me.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

What you have is a belief, a feeling that homosexuals don't have a choice. You are welcome to that belief-absolutely.

However, your belief needs to be consistent. When it's not you get cognitive dissonance. Which is exactly what you have right now.

You believe really, really, really badly that homosexuality is not by choice but by biology. Okay, fine.
Then how does your belief account for twins which come from the same egg, same sperm, which have the same DNA where one is homosexual and one is not?

You're belief that it is biology cannot stand up in the face of these facts. Which means you can either be dogmatic in the face of all evidence and reason (that's fine) or you can find a way to resolve these contradictions and modify your belief.

If you are unwilling to recognize the contradictions and attempt to solve them, then you can simply admit your viewpoint is one based on faith-i.e. it is a religious ideology and one that you can't prove. Again, that's fine just be honest with it. Unfortunately, you do prove the point that most individuals simply follow the dogmatic crowd-the power of belief in the face of overwhelming facts is quite impressive.

Whatever you say. It matters not really. What matters is how we treat people. I wont take my example on how to treat gay people from you.

Yes how we treat others matters very much. I don't doubt your sincerity in believing what you are doing is really helping. I do see your point of view. I'm trying to help you see mine (and others here).

If homosexuality is biological and there is absolutely nothing one can do about it. Then the Mormon Building Bridges, LGBTQ+ groups are right. It means that if 2 men show up to church, holding hands, hugging, being affection etc. it means that it will have absolutely no impact upon how my children, your children and others behave. If your belief (i.e. your religious worldview) about it being biological is correct-then absolutely every one who tells homosexuals they shouldn't be together, they should repent, they should change, etc. every one who is doing that is causing them pain and suffering. I concede that.

However, what if you are wrong? What if instead of being biological, it comes about from a set of circumstances, that maybe because of either childhood abuse, neglect, or rebellion, maybe it comes about because some individuals have learned over time to become thus. What if it is changeable, what if it's neither innate nor inborn? What if it is possible to become clean of and change? What if human beings are way more complex than their biology, what if that by seeing 2 men holding hands, hugging, etc. it gives small children (who are very impressionable) more reason to experiment themselves to see if they enjoy it?

If I am right, then what is the kind thing to do? Would it be kind to allow my children (or other children) to see such behavior and possibly try it out themselves? Would it be kind for the one who is engaged in the behavior to allow them to do so in a Church where the objective is to help sinners become saints!?

You want middle-ground. I'm giving you middle-ground! If your belief is correct, then everything else you say is accurate and I'm absolutely wrong and I will pay for it when I stand before God.

Can you do the same for me? Can you at least come to the middle-ground and concede that if I'm correct, that if my belief is correct, then you are doing things completely backwards and you are reaping damnation?

[thestock]

No I dont interact with the gay community. I know some people who are gay, and I dont have any problems with them whatsoever. They are nice and hard working people. Again if the gay community is organizing against the Church, let them organize! Let them do whatever is in their agency to do. Christ taught us to turn the other cheek. Most of them just want a safe space in the Church. Put yourself in their shoes.....imagine you actually have same sex attraction and you are struggling with it. Occasionally you screw up, but mostly you are doing things correctly. But you come to Church where A) The Leaders are talking constantly about it, and B) The church members mostly as a whole voice their disgust with the lifestyle and those who "choose" it. How would that feel? Would you want to remain in the Church? Would you just up and leave? Perhaps you feel like its not fair that gay people and others dont have a place in the Church.

Lets take a look at our own doctrine. We believe that gay people who choose to act out their gay lifestyles can be rewarded with what? Telestial glory? Terrestrial glory? We try to elevate people to Celestial glory.....but there are kingdoms within kingdoms. Many many MANY MANY of our members fall short of Celestial glory. But they have a place in the church. Lets give one to people who struggle with bieng gay. If Terrestrial glory is their cut-off....lets help them get the highest degree of it.

I have friends who are gay and we get along just fine.

Gay people are welcome in church just like the rest of us sinners are welcome. Smokers are allowed in church but if they smoke in church they'll be asked to leave. If they preach that smoking is OK they'll be corrected. If they continue the behavior they'll be asked to leave. Then there will probably be some Word of Wisdom talks and lessons in church making sure everyone knows that smoking is not OK.
Church is not a place to argue that your sin isn't actually a sin nor is it a place to promote your contrary behaviors. It's not a place to get support for your sin. Wearing rainbow ties to show support is about as stupid as wearing a tie with naked ladies on it to show support for those addicted to pornography. Those addicted to pornography come to church but they don't brag about their sin and if they do they'll be asked to leave. Same with the gay community. We as a church will support the person but not their sin. Gays seem to want support for their sin.

I live on the East coast, recently moved from one state to another. I've had several openly gay people attend the wards I am in. None of them acts the way you are describing.

How is it that you know they are homosexual?

They say things in Sunday School talking about their struggle or they will actually say that they are gay in casual conversation.

[catcatinabox]

I am not a scientist. But the assertion that a gay person is gay by choice the same way I am heterosexual by choice and not biology does not compute with me.

I agree with you on this. I don't necessarily believe homosexuality is a choice. I don't think it's in their genes either. How one responds to being gay is a choice just like it's a choice on how one responds to being "straight". I know many people who have not been married, some are old, but they still keep themselves chaste. If a straight person can live a chaste life as a single person so can a gay person, and many gay people already do.

Careful there Art! Agreeing with me will certainly invite scorn for you on this board.

Seriously though.....well put my friend. How we respond is everything. I dont see most alcoholic church members I know with a beer in their hand at Church. They do very well most of the time, and they screw up from time to time....then they get back up and keep trying. Its the same for gay people that come to Church. The ones that are out living a lewd lifestyle arent much into going to Church. The ones that are really trying often screw up....but then they keep trying. That is what I have seen. We had a guy who's wife left him because he came out as gay (he wasnt cheating though). She divorced him and took the kids and left. He kept coming to Church. He sat alone for a long time, because once his secret was out, people treated him differently.

That breaks my heart. Its sad to see. I wish I didnt have to see it with people that struggle.....but one thing I have learned about humans is that our natural tendency is to be A-holes towards one another.....unfortunately.

Why be open? Why is it that the homosexual WANT others to know of their deviant sexual desires.

At the heart of it, when someone says they are homosexual, they are telling you they desire to have sex with someone of the same sex . . . that's why. You can dress it up all you want but at the end of the day it's about sex.

The alcoholic doesn't show up with a beer b/c no one else needs to know. The only other person who needs to know is the ecclesiastical leader. The pornographer doesn't show up with pornography b/c no one else needs to know. As much as open homosexuals claim it's about love-it's not. The only reason to be open is for other people to see it as normal. It's to normalize it; it's to make it seem like not a big deal.

Divorces are more complicated than that-I'm positive that wasn't the only reason for her leaving-it was probably the straw that broke the camel's back. What he probably did was say "I'm homosexual AND I look at homosexual porn". Yes, that's when protecting your children starts to play a big factor.