Is there a middle ground? The Church and gay marriage

[mahalanobis]

These folks can bear their testimony of false doctrine all day long. If they have enough conviction and add a tear-jerking story or two, they'll continue to get many "converts" because very few actually know how to discern truth.

Part of the problem is that we've been taught by ward and stake leaders (and sometimes in general conference) that the Spirit is "what we feel when we feel like crying". The same goosebumps you feel from watching your favorite movie. If you have a feeling of love, that is the Spirit. Oh, and my favorite: everyone feels the Spirit differently. - yikes!

None of this is backed by scripture (and in my experience, not backed by the Holy Ghost either). We have different spiritual gifts, but that's not the same as HOW we feel the Spirit. That experience is well-documented in scripture in many places.

If you don't want to be decieved, treasure up the good word of God, cast out evil spirits by word, by thoughts, by faith, and in your deeds. Do your best to keep the commandments, and "worship the Father in spirit and in truth".

[pho·to·syn·the·sis]

Marriage between a man and woman, (husband and wife) is one of the main pillars of society and civilization. Corrupt and muddy the institution, and society as a whole loses its impetus and cohesion. Homosexuality directly and indirectly brings death.

Here is an example of what homosexuality brings: (warning, language!!!)

[Sirius]

That is great they want to claim personal revelation, and they should be seeking such. The problem becomes the revelation they are receiving aligns with absolutely nothing in any book of scripture, or revelation received by any prophet of God. In fact, it stands in complete contrast to EVERYTHING God has stated on that subject. So yes, they may be receiving revelation, but it is surely not coming from God.

14 And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations

The experiences behind this revelation are interesting in scope of the statement made by the individual claiming God revealed to them their gayness was perfect

One of the most remarkable conferences in church history occurred between June 3rd and 6th, 1831 (conferences were not held semi-annually as they are today). The conference became a duel of spiritual manifestations in which the young Prophet would dispel Satan's attacks on some of the Brethren. The months previous had been full of spiritual manifestations-most of which were false, and many of the saints had been deceived thereby. Recently, the Prophet had received a revelation which helped the elders discern between true and false spirits (see D&C 50). During this conference, the Prophet demonstrated to the elders not only that he had the spirit of discernment but that he also had power to cast out devils.

https://gospeldoctrine.com/doctrine-cov ... section-52

[EmmaLee]

This is hilarious! Pretty sure the Church doesn’t agree that there’s nothing wrong with lesbianism. And if what you are saying were true, why couldn’t a married man engage in homosexual activity so long as he were reproducing with his spouse? Crazy...

Did the Church condemn treatment of hysteria back in the 1800s? And remember, female midwives provided treatment for hysteria as well.

No idea...but lots of weird stuff has happened throughout history in the name of medical treatment. I think if you are hanging your hat on lesbianism being ok on this basis that’s a pretty shaky foundation.

And you didn’t address the issue of male homosexuality so long as they are reproducing.

Actually my point is that it is interesting that female sexuality was not even a consideration, in many aspects, up until recent years. What was treatment for hysteria by our definitions today was sex, unless it is Bill Clinton defining it, but the only emphasis in the 19th Century was on men, for the most part. How do we know what was defined as sex in the Old Testament? Apparently, a woman was to be put to death for adultery or sex with a non-human organism. However, if in a polygamist marriage, was anything between two women seen within the same context? And since the most important thing in the scriptures, in relation to marriage, was making babies then maybe it was not seen within the context we have today. Just speculation based on something a local rabbi once said in an interview and trying to figure out the apparent double-standard between males and females in those days.

According to the LDS Church, any kind of sex, between anyone other than A man, and A woman, who are legally and lawfully married to each other, is breaking the law of chastity. In a polygamous marriage, the women are not married to each other - they are each, individually, married to the man - therefore, women in a polygamous marriage having sex with each other is breaking the law of chastity.

[EmmaLee]

Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

Not to mention how birth control is putting an end to western society.

I would say the main thing that is putting an end to western society is people (including most Church members) turning away from Christ. The Book of Mormon, the keystone of our religion, explicitly states this. The disintegration of the family is being caused by sin, by immorality, by turning away from God, more than anything else.

[Fiannan]

According to the LDS Church, any kind of sex, between anyone other than A man, and A woman, who are legally and lawfully married to each other, is breaking the law of chastity. In a polygamous marriage, the women are not married to each other - they are each, individually, married to the man - therefore, women in a polygamous marriage having sex with each other is breaking the law of chastity.

Were any prophets in the Bible "legally and lawfully" married to their wives? What did a marriage certificate look like in those days?

[Fiannan]

Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

Not to mention how birth control is putting an end to western society.

I would say the main thing that is putting an end to western society is people (including most Church members) turning away from Christ. The Book of Mormon, the keystone of our religion, explicitly states this. The disintegration of the family is being caused by sin, by immorality, by turning away from God, more than anything else.

I agree that religion is vital, but Israel is strong and they are Jews. In fact, the Israeli birthrate, even with secular Jews, is on the rise.

[EmmaLee]

According to the LDS Church, any kind of sex, between anyone other than A man, and A woman, who are legally and lawfully married to each other, is breaking the law of chastity. In a polygamous marriage, the women are not married to each other - they are each, individually, married to the man - therefore, women in a polygamous marriage having sex with each other is breaking the law of chastity.

Were any prophets in the Bible "legally and lawfully" married to their wives? What did a marriage certificate look like in those days?

Don't know, don't care about Biblical marriage laws. We live in 2019. In 2019, the LDS Church states what the Law of Chastity is - it's very clear - nothing ambiguous about it.

[EmmaLee]

Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

Not to mention how birth control is putting an end to western society.

I would say the main thing that is putting an end to western society is people (including most Church members) turning away from Christ. The Book of Mormon, the keystone of our religion, explicitly states this. The disintegration of the family is being caused by sin, by immorality, by turning away from God, more than anything else.

I agree that religion is vital, but Israel is strong and they are Jews. In fact, the Israeli birthrate, even with secular Jews, is on the rise.

Religion isn't vital - a belief in, and a commitment to Christ and his commandments are what is vital. That is what will return a person to God, not how many children they have.

[pho·to·syn·the·sis]

I was looking for an address from Elder Gong and found this while searching. Is there something about Elder Gong that homosexuals hold out hope for?

https://mormondom.com/official-declarat ... 66aa167b5f

To Whom It May Concern:
On Saturday April 6th, 2041, at the 211th Semiannual General Conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the following was presented by President Ulisses Soares, First Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church:
In January of this year, the First Presidency announced that a revelation had been received by President Gerrit W. Gong extending temple sealings to all worthy couples in the church.
President Gong has asked that I inform today’s conference that this transcendent revelation has been discussed, reviewed, and unanimously confirmed by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The revelation has likewise been presented to all other General Authorities, who universally sustained the revelation.
President Gong has also asked that I read the following letter, after which, the revelation will be presented to the body of the church for a sustaining vote.
***
January 16th, 2041
To the children of God upon the Earth and in the Heavens:
Among the first truths God taught Adam after his creation in the garden was that “it is not good for man to be alone”. As I have reflected on the power and simplicity of this basic truth and on the innumerable blessings afforded me within my celestial marriage the thoughts of my mind became intensely focused upon our brothers and sisters to whom these blessings have not be available as result of their God given sexual orientation.
The longstanding counsel and policy that these children of God remain celibate outside of the institution of marriage brought great trouble into my heart and soul insomuch that I became increasingly moved by the Holy Spirit to inquire of the Lord whether the time has come when marriages between any two committed Latter-day Saints may be solemnized in the temple.
While engaged in fasting and prayer within the walls of the Salt Lake Temple, and after much study of both ancient and modern scripture, the living Christ, by whom this church is lead, provided clear revelation that such a time has come.
It is an eternal truth that families are the fundamental building block of human society on both sides of the veil. For many generations biological and cultural realities confined the component parts of a family to a man and woman who married and often brought forth children.
Through the inspiration of loving Heavenly Parents incredible progress has been made in both the biological capacity and the societal acceptance for families of myriad configurations across the world. No longer are we constrained by long held traditions of who can and cannot form and function as family.
By expanding the new and everlasting covenant of marriage to any two worthy individuals the Lord has greatly expanded the capacity of His children to aid Him in His mission “to bring to pass the immorality and eternal life of all men”.
As we welcome our gay brothers and sisters into the sealing rooms of our temples we allow the plan of salvation to reach further into our communities, advance deeper into our hearts, and spread farther across the eternities.
We invite all members of the church and anyone within the sound of our voice to ponder in your hearts the comprehensive love of our Savior and the expansiveness of His gospel, and then to seek your own confirmation that this is the mind and will of the Lord in these His Latter Days.
We declare with exuberance and humility that our Heavenly Parents love all of Their children profoundly, completely, and perfectly. It is Their sincerest desire that each one of Their children who are so desirous be able to enjoy the blessings of eternal companionship.
May God be thanked for this wonderful gift and may we all do our best to affirm the blessing and sanctity of marriage for all our brothers and sisters.
With love and devotion,
Gerrit W. Gong
***
With recognition of Gerrit W. Gong as the prophet, seer, and revelator, and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it is proposed that we as a solemn assembly of that church accept this revelation as the word and will of the Lord.
All in favor please signify by raising your right hand. Any opposed by the same sign.
The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous in the affirmative.
Salt Lake City, Utah
April 6, 2041

[mahalanobis]

...
found this while searching.
...

...
The longstanding counsel and policy that these children of God remain celibate outside of the institution of marriage brought great trouble into my heart and soul insomuch that I became increasingly moved by the Holy Spirit ...

Wow. Basically: "I was so bothered by the fact that some people aren't having sex... The horror." Just wow.

This is poorly written. Didn't the author get the memo? If you're pushing the LGBT agenda, you don't reference the gay sex. You reference the suicides caused by the rest of society. I could have written this so much better. Maybe I shouldn't be giving them ideas.

[Lizzy60]

Is there something about Elder Gong? Well, some people believe he is liberal in his views (former member of the Council on Foreign Relations) and more importantly, he has a son who is openly gay. His son came out before his father was made an apostle, so this was known by those who selected him. It has been said that he and his wife are supportive of their son, but I don't have details. Of course they are not going to disown him, and they shouldn't, but I don't know what defines their support.


Matthew Gong, in his own words. This is a Facebook post of his, and he made it public. He is holding out hope that the Church will change and accept LGBTQ without reservation.

https://m.facebook.com/notes/matthew-go ... oser=false

I was looking for an address from Elder Gong and found this while searching. Is there something about Elder Gong that homosexuals hold out hope for?

[LDS Watchman]

I was looking for an address from Elder Gong and found this while searching. Is there something about Elder Gong that homosexuals hold out hope for?

https://mormondom.com/official-declarat ... 66aa167b5f

To Whom It May Concern:
On Saturday April 6th, 2041, at the 211th Semiannual General Conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the following was presented by President Ulisses Soares, First Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church:
In January of this year, the First Presidency announced that a revelation had been received by President Gerrit W. Gong extending temple sealings to all worthy couples in the church.
President Gong has asked that I inform today’s conference that this transcendent revelation has been discussed, reviewed, and unanimously confirmed by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The revelation has likewise been presented to all other General Authorities, who universally sustained the revelation.
President Gong has also asked that I read the following letter, after which, the revelation will be presented to the body of the church for a sustaining vote.
***
January 16th, 2041
To the children of God upon the Earth and in the Heavens:
Among the first truths God taught Adam after his creation in the garden was that “it is not good for man to be alone”. As I have reflected on the power and simplicity of this basic truth and on the innumerable blessings afforded me within my celestial marriage the thoughts of my mind became intensely focused upon our brothers and sisters to whom these blessings have not be available as result of their God given sexual orientation.
The longstanding counsel and policy that these children of God remain celibate outside of the institution of marriage brought great trouble into my heart and soul insomuch that I became increasingly moved by the Holy Spirit to inquire of the Lord whether the time has come when marriages between any two committed Latter-day Saints may be solemnized in the temple.
While engaged in fasting and prayer within the walls of the Salt Lake Temple, and after much study of both ancient and modern scripture, the living Christ, by whom this church is lead, provided clear revelation that such a time has come.
It is an eternal truth that families are the fundamental building block of human society on both sides of the veil. For many generations biological and cultural realities confined the component parts of a family to a man and woman who married and often brought forth children.
Through the inspiration of loving Heavenly Parents incredible progress has been made in both the biological capacity and the societal acceptance for families of myriad configurations across the world. No longer are we constrained by long held traditions of who can and cannot form and function as family.
By expanding the new and everlasting covenant of marriage to any two worthy individuals the Lord has greatly expanded the capacity of His children to aid Him in His mission “to bring to pass the immorality and eternal life of all men”.
As we welcome our gay brothers and sisters into the sealing rooms of our temples we allow the plan of salvation to reach further into our communities, advance deeper into our hearts, and spread farther across the eternities.
We invite all members of the church and anyone within the sound of our voice to ponder in your hearts the comprehensive love of our Savior and the expansiveness of His gospel, and then to seek your own confirmation that this is the mind and will of the Lord in these His Latter Days.
We declare with exuberance and humility that our Heavenly Parents love all of Their children profoundly, completely, and perfectly. It is Their sincerest desire that each one of Their children who are so desirous be able to enjoy the blessings of eternal companionship.
May God be thanked for this wonderful gift and may we all do our best to affirm the blessing and sanctity of marriage for all our brothers and sisters.
With love and devotion,
Gerrit W. Gong
***
With recognition of Gerrit W. Gong as the prophet, seer, and revelator, and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saintss, it is proposed that we as a solemn assembly of that church accept this revelation as the word and will of the Lord.
All in favor please signify by raising your right hand. Any opposed by the same sign.
The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous in the affirmative.
Salt Lake City, Utah
April 6, 2041

I fully expect an announcement EXACTLY like this one day. Around 2040 sounds about right, too.

[Fiannan]

I was looking for an address from Elder Gong and found this while searching. Is there something about Elder Gong that homosexuals hold out hope for?

https://mormondom.com/official-declarat ... 66aa167b5f

To Whom It May Concern:
On Saturday April 6th, 2041, at the 211th Semiannual General Conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the following was presented by President Ulisses Soares, First Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church:
In January of this year, the First Presidency announced that a revelation had been received by President Gerrit W. Gong extending temple sealings to all worthy couples in the church.
President Gong has asked that I inform today’s conference that this transcendent revelation has been discussed, reviewed, and unanimously confirmed by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The revelation has likewise been presented to all other General Authorities, who universally sustained the revelation.
President Gong has also asked that I read the following letter, after which, the revelation will be presented to the body of the church for a sustaining vote.
***
January 16th, 2041
To the children of God upon the Earth and in the Heavens:
Among the first truths God taught Adam after his creation in the garden was that “it is not good for man to be alone”. As I have reflected on the power and simplicity of this basic truth and on the innumerable blessings afforded me within my celestial marriage the thoughts of my mind became intensely focused upon our brothers and sisters to whom these blessings have not be available as result of their God given sexual orientation.
The longstanding counsel and policy that these children of God remain celibate outside of the institution of marriage brought great trouble into my heart and soul insomuch that I became increasingly moved by the Holy Spirit to inquire of the Lord whether the time has come when marriages between any two committed Latter-day Saints may be solemnized in the temple.
While engaged in fasting and prayer within the walls of the Salt Lake Temple, and after much study of both ancient and modern scripture, the living Christ, by whom this church is lead, provided clear revelation that such a time has come.
It is an eternal truth that families are the fundamental building block of human society on both sides of the veil. For many generations biological and cultural realities confined the component parts of a family to a man and woman who married and often brought forth children.
Through the inspiration of loving Heavenly Parents incredible progress has been made in both the biological capacity and the societal acceptance for families of myriad configurations across the world. No longer are we constrained by long held traditions of who can and cannot form and function as family.
By expanding the new and everlasting covenant of marriage to any two worthy individuals the Lord has greatly expanded the capacity of His children to aid Him in His mission “to bring to pass the immorality and eternal life of all men”.
As we welcome our gay brothers and sisters into the sealing rooms of our temples we allow the plan of salvation to reach further into our communities, advance deeper into our hearts, and spread farther across the eternities.
We invite all members of the church and anyone within the sound of our voice to ponder in your hearts the comprehensive love of our Savior and the expansiveness of His gospel, and then to seek your own confirmation that this is the mind and will of the Lord in these His Latter Days.
We declare with exuberance and humility that our Heavenly Parents love all of Their children profoundly, completely, and perfectly. It is Their sincerest desire that each one of Their children who are so desirous be able to enjoy the blessings of eternal companionship.
May God be thanked for this wonderful gift and may we all do our best to affirm the blessing and sanctity of marriage for all our brothers and sisters.
With love and devotion,
Gerrit W. Gong
***
With recognition of Gerrit W. Gong as the prophet, seer, and revelator, and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saintss, it is proposed that we as a solemn assembly of that church accept this revelation as the word and will of the Lord.
All in favor please signify by raising your right hand. Any opposed by the same sign.
The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous in the affirmative.
Salt Lake City, Utah
April 6, 2041

I fully expect an announcement EXACTLY like this one day. Around 2040 sounds about right, too.

2040 sounds right, but I think it may be as soon as 2030. Look at how much has changed since Proposition 8. However, I thought this was thought provoking:

It is an eternal truth that families are the fundamental building block of human society on both sides of the veil. For many generations biological and cultural realities confined the component parts of a family to a man and woman who married and often brought forth children.
Through the inspiration of loving Heavenly Parents incredible progress has been made in both the biological capacity and the societal acceptance for families of myriad configurations across the world. No longer are we constrained by long held traditions of who can and cannot form and function as family.

By 2030 a larger number of men will opt out of marriage (synthetic companions, virtual reality, etc) and besides, maybe up to half or more will be sterile and useless for reproductive purposes. The above scenario would have been after the Church becomes more open to artificial insemination for single women, or perhaps some sort of more-than-room-mates kind of non-sexual domestic partnership that might begin to grow as women cease to find men to have families with. Women can then find eugenic sperm donors and have a sort of cooperative family arrangement - perfect for all the single Mormon women. This will chip away at traditional attitudes and then same-sex relationships will just come in naturally within the Church.

[LDS Watchman]

I was looking for an address from Elder Gong and found this while searching. Is there something about Elder Gong that homosexuals hold out hope for?

https://mormondom.com/official-declarat ... 66aa167b5f

To Whom It May Concern:
On Saturday April 6th, 2041, at the 211th Semiannual General Conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the following was presented by President Ulisses Soares, First Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church:
In January of this year, the First Presidency announced that a revelation had been received by President Gerrit W. Gong extending temple sealings to all worthy couples in the church.
President Gong has asked that I inform today’s conference that this transcendent revelation has been discussed, reviewed, and unanimously confirmed by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The revelation has likewise been presented to all other General Authorities, who universally sustained the revelation.
President Gong has also asked that I read the following letter, after which, the revelation will be presented to the body of the church for a sustaining vote.
***
January 16th, 2041
To the children of God upon the Earth and in the Heavens:
Among the first truths God taught Adam after his creation in the garden was that “it is not good for man to be alone”. As I have reflected on the power and simplicity of this basic truth and on the innumerable blessings afforded me within my celestial marriage the thoughts of my mind became intensely focused upon our brothers and sisters to whom these blessings have not be available as result of their God given sexual orientation.
The longstanding counsel and policy that these children of God remain celibate outside of the institution of marriage brought great trouble into my heart and soul insomuch that I became increasingly moved by the Holy Spirit to inquire of the Lord whether the time has come when marriages between any two committed Latter-day Saints may be solemnized in the temple.
While engaged in fasting and prayer within the walls of the Salt Lake Temple, and after much study of both ancient and modern scripture, the living Christ, by whom this church is lead, provided clear revelation that such a time has come.
It is an eternal truth that families are the fundamental building block of human society on both sides of the veil. For many generations biological and cultural realities confined the component parts of a family to a man and woman who married and often brought forth children.
Through the inspiration of loving Heavenly Parents incredible progress has been made in both the biological capacity and the societal acceptance for families of myriad configurations across the world. No longer are we constrained by long held traditions of who can and cannot form and function as family.
By expanding the new and everlasting covenant of marriage to any two worthy individuals the Lord has greatly expanded the capacity of His children to aid Him in His mission “to bring to pass the immorality and eternal life of all men”.
As we welcome our gay brothers and sisters into the sealing rooms of our temples we allow the plan of salvation to reach further into our communities, advance deeper into our hearts, and spread farther across the eternities.
We invite all members of the church and anyone within the sound of our voice to ponder in your hearts the comprehensive love of our Savior and the expansiveness of His gospel, and then to seek your own confirmation that this is the mind and will of the Lord in these His Latter Days.
We declare with exuberance and humility that our Heavenly Parents love all of Their children profoundly, completely, and perfectly. It is Their sincerest desire that each one of Their children who are so desirous be able to enjoy the blessings of eternal companionship.
May God be thanked for this wonderful gift and may we all do our best to affirm the blessing and sanctity of marriage for all our brothers and sisters.
With love and devotion,
Gerrit W. Gong
***
With recognition of Gerrit W. Gong as the prophet, seer, and revelator, and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saintss, it is proposed that we as a solemn assembly of that church accept this revelation as the word and will of the Lord.
All in favor please signify by raising your right hand. Any opposed by the same sign.
The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous in the affirmative.
Salt Lake City, Utah
April 6, 2041

I fully expect an announcement EXACTLY like this one day. Around 2040 sounds about right, too.

2040 sounds right, but I think it may be as soon as 2030. Look at how much has changed since Proposition 8. However, I thought this was thought provoking:

It is an eternal truth that families are the fundamental building block of human society on both sides of the veil. For many generations biological and cultural realities confined the component parts of a family to a man and woman who married and often brought forth children.
Through the inspiration of loving Heavenly Parents incredible progress has been made in both the biological capacity and the societal acceptance for families of myriad configurations across the world. No longer are we constrained by long held traditions of who can and cannot form and function as family.

By 2030 a larger number of men will opt out of marriage (synthetic companions, virtual reality, etc) and besides, maybe up to half or more will be sterile and useless for reproductive purposes. The above scenario would have been after the Church becomes more open to artificial insemination for single women, or perhaps some sort of more-than-room-mates kind of non-sexual domestic partnership that might begin to grow as women cease to find men to have families with. Women can then find eugenic sperm donors and have a sort of cooperative family arrangement - perfect for all the single Mormon women. This will chip away at traditional attitudes and then same-sex relationships will just come in naturally within the Church.

Yes is could be as early as 2030. A lot would have to change in the next 11 years then. Nelson and Oaks would have to both be gone and the membership as a whole will have to be a lot more open to this by then.

I think this will take another 20 to 30 years, but who knows.

I don't think most 40-55 year olds in the Church are in favor of gay marriage and they'll make up a large percentage of the church in 10 years.

I think this age group would have to be on board for it to happen that soon.

[Lizzy60]

The age 40-55 yr olds are now finding out that some of their children. And/or their friends' children are LGBTQ. This factor alone is the cause for them to start wanting "inclusion". Others see their children accepting gay marriage and they also want to be "woke".

If Nelson and Oaks pass away in the next 10 years, AND/OR if the Church starts to lose a lot of $$$$$ because of dissatisfied members (less tithing) and government sanctions (no tax breaks/confiscation of property) we will see the acceptance of all things LGBTQ very quickly. It really doesn't matter what the majority of LDS believe or desire. When the Brethren speak, most will fall in line.

[mahalanobis]

The age 40-55 yr olds are now finding out that some of their children. And/or their friends' children are LGBTQ. This factor alone is the cause for them to start wanting "inclusion". Others see their children accepting gay marriage and they also want to be "woke".

If Nelson and Oaks pass away in the next 10 years, AND/OR if the Church starts to lose a lot of $$$$$ because of dissatisfied members (less tithing) and government sanctions (no tax breaks/confiscation of property) we will see the acceptance of all things LGBTQ very quickly. It really doesn't matter what the majority of LDS believe or desire. When the Brethren speak, most will fall in line.

The Church is going hemorrhage cash either way. The sooner we accept that, the better off the battle will go.

If they accept gay temple marriage you will see a huge loss in tithing money. How many currently-non-tithe-paying LGBT activist members do you think will suddenly start paying tithing? Out of those numbers, how much money do you think they make? Meanwhile, you will see a great many stop showing up at church. They won't oppose at conference because of the social stigma, but they'll be gone with their money. This will never be known because the church doesn't publish sacrament meeting attendance numbers or tithing numbers - the two that actually represent growth or decline. In the aftermath, we'll hear about the newfound "inclusivity" and all about the love, but nobody will ever know the full story of the numbers.

If they never accept gay temple marriage, we will see tax exempt status removed, but that can be battled in the courts and the church can find legal loopholes for what portion gets taxed. In the end, money will still be lost of course.

It's not looking good either way, financially. I think the current first presidency knows this, but they are trying to prevent both. So they: 1) Speak boldly to make it harder for the next generation to change the law of chastity, and 2) make friends with the Left and signal our virtue to them. ------
The problem is that the second point is emboldening all the leftist members of the church, undermining the first point.

[[email protected]]

I don't believe in a middle ground on this or any other recent social trend. I think we should go back to sending cops in to raid gay bars and outlaw sodomy personally.

Would you outlaw it for both heterosexuals and homosexuals alike? And how would you possibly enforce it?

"What!?"
"How could you be such an evil bigot?!"
"You just an angry repressed homosexual yourself!"
"Backward uneducated Jesus freak!"
"You aren't a true Christian, don't judge!"

OK, I won’t say any of the above, if you promise not to call my son or other close family, whom I dearly love, evil, or a “sodomite” (which really only describes people from the city of Sodom anyway).

- Homosexuality is not genetic or otherwise and inherent inborn trait, simple twin studies prove that. There are several documented cases of one identical twin being an active and open homosexual and the other a normal married family man with children.

Maybe not so simple? What do actual scientists and clinical researchers have to say?

2014
A genetic analysis of 409 pairs of gay brothers, including sets of twins, has provided the strongest evidence yet that gay people are born gay. The study clearly links sexual orientation in men with two regions of the human genome that have been implicated before, one on the X chromosome and one on chromosome 8.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... z64cl1sauB

A 2019 study involving over 500,000 people, has the headline, “No ‘Gay Gene’”, but toward the bottom of the article they admit…” For their second analysis, Ganna and his colleagues wanted to see which particular SNPs were associated with same-sex sexual behaviours, and found five that were more common among those individuals. However, those five SNPs collectively explained less than 1% of the variation in sexual behaviour. This suggests that there are a lot of genes that influence sexual behaviour, many of which researchers haven’t found yet, says Ganna. An even larger sample size could help to identify those missing variants, he says.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02585-6

And here is one from 2015:
A new study of male twins, scheduled for presentation at the annual meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics (ASHG) in Baltimore, Maryland, today, could help explain that paradox. It finds that epigenetic effects, chemical modifications of the human genome that alter gene activity without changing the DNA sequence, may have a major influence on sexual orientation.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/10 ... ations-dna

The point is, the jury is still out (contrary to your stated beliefs). You might be surprised to learn you really don't have everything figured out (for yourself nor for anyone else). And neither do I.

I strongly believe that God doesn't want anyone to be forced into a life of celibacy and loneliness. I believe that part of the Plan of Happiness is indeed finding someone to share this life with and to learn the real deep lessons of unconditional love, charity and commitment. If that were not true, why would the Church focus so much on marriage and family. Just because someone is gay is not a reason to forbid all those experiences that are gained from committed relationships.

This is actually the only piece of information that matters out of everything you posted:

"A 2019 study involving over 500,000 people, has the headline, “No ‘Gay Gene’"

That's right, the rest is just fluff, assumptions, and probably wishful thinking on the part of what are almost certainly politically motivated and biased researchers. All that incentive, all that grant money and there is still no "gay gene" and no solid evidence that homosexuality is an inborn trait. After all these years, decades even, there is no evidence people are born gay but that doesn't stop the lie from being repeated by activists, academics, and media personalities the world over.

You have a son who's gay and don't want him attacked and slandered? I can respect that, a good father protects his son. I know this one trait or pattern of behavior doesn't make a person inherently evil and I haven't been in either you or your son's shoes on this issue so I can't tell you or him how to deal with it on a personal level. But this goes beyond you and your son. This goes beyond any one person. Homosexuality on a societal level, and the way it's being sanctioned, promoted, and mandated in so many aspects of our society needs to stop. What's evil isn't the individual who is homosexual, it's the activisim, the agenda that are evil. And most people involved in promoting it aren't even homosexual themselves.

[mahalanobis]

I don't believe in a middle ground on this or any other recent social trend. I think we should go back to sending cops in to raid gay bars and outlaw sodomy personally.

Would you outlaw it for both heterosexuals and homosexuals alike? And how would you possibly enforce it?

"What!?"
"How could you be such an evil bigot?!"
"You just an angry repressed homosexual yourself!"
"Backward uneducated Jesus freak!"
"You aren't a true Christian, don't judge!"

OK, I won’t say any of the above, if you promise not to call my son or other close family, whom I dearly love, evil, or a “sodomite” (which really only describes people from the city of Sodom anyway).

- Homosexuality is not genetic or otherwise and inherent inborn trait, simple twin studies prove that. There are several documented cases of one identical twin being an active and open homosexual and the other a normal married family man with children.

Maybe not so simple? What do actual scientists and clinical researchers have to say?

2014
A genetic analysis of 409 pairs of gay brothers, including sets of twins, has provided the strongest evidence yet that gay people are born gay. The study clearly links sexual orientation in men with two regions of the human genome that have been implicated before, one on the X chromosome and one on chromosome 8.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... z64cl1sauB

A 2019 study involving over 500,000 people, has the headline, “No ‘Gay Gene’”, but toward the bottom of the article they admit…” For their second analysis, Ganna and his colleagues wanted to see which particular SNPs were associated with same-sex sexual behaviours, and found five that were more common among those individuals. However, those five SNPs collectively explained less than 1% of the variation in sexual behaviour. This suggests that there are a lot of genes that influence sexual behaviour, many of which researchers haven’t found yet, says Ganna. An even larger sample size could help to identify those missing variants, he says.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02585-6

And here is one from 2015:
A new study of male twins, scheduled for presentation at the annual meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics (ASHG) in Baltimore, Maryland, today, could help explain that paradox. It finds that epigenetic effects, chemical modifications of the human genome that alter gene activity without changing the DNA sequence, may have a major influence on sexual orientation.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/10 ... ations-dna

The point is, the jury is still out (contrary to your stated beliefs). You might be surprised to learn you really don't have everything figured out (for yourself nor for anyone else). And neither do I.

I strongly believe that God doesn't want anyone to be forced into a life of celibacy and loneliness. I believe that part of the Plan of Happiness is indeed finding someone to share this life with and to learn the real deep lessons of unconditional love, charity and commitment. If that were not true, why would the Church focus so much on marriage and family. Just because someone is gay is not a reason to forbid all those experiences that are gained from committed relationships.

This is actually the only piece of information that matters out of everything you posted:

"A 2019 study involving over 500,000 people, has the headline, “No ‘Gay Gene’"

That's right, the rest is just fluff, assumptions, and probably wishful thinking on the part of what are almost certainly politically motivated and biased researchers. All that incentive, all that grant money and there is still no "gay gene" and no solid evidence that homosexuality is an inborn trait. After all these years, decades even, there is no evidence people are born gay but that doesn't stop the lie from being repeated by activists, academics, and media personalities the world over.

You have a son who's gay and don't want him attacked and slandered? I can respect that, a good father protects his son. I know this one trait or pattern of behavior doesn't make a person inherently evil and I haven't been in either you or your son's shoes on this issue so I can't tell you or him how to deal with it on a personal level. But this goes beyond you and your son. This goes beyond any one person. Homosexuality on a societal level, and the way it's being sanctioned, promoted, and mandated in so many aspects of our society needs to stop. What's evil isn't the individual who is homosexual, it's the activisim, the agenda that are evil. And most people involved in promoting it aren't even homosexual themselves.

My 7-year-old daughter is constantly told by her friends at school and church (yes that's right, at church) that boys can marry boys and girls can marry girls. Technically that is true by the government's definition. But she's 7 for Pete's sake!

She was on the verge of tears the other day because she tries to tell them they're wrong, then they gang up on her. (The tears were for being ganged up on and outnumbered). Keep in mind that I don't brainwash hetero marriage into her head. I keep her innocent and teach her the basics of the Holy Ghost and Jesus. So it's not like she's waging this war on my account, trust me.

Now she's coming home from school with rainbows on every single drawing. The rainbows themselves are fine. I like rainbows. What bothers be is that I know about her teachers. They give positive feedback on the rainbows. Kids naturally love to show their drawings to their teachers and I just know that she gets an "oh I loooove that's drawing" when it's a rainbow. And "oh that's um ... interesting" when it's a picture of Jesus.

The conditioning and peer pressure at the age of 7 is ridiculous.

If that doesn't bother you, just create a hypothetical thought experiment about your children and swap the gay ideology out with something you don't like.

[Silas]

I don't believe in a middle ground on this or any other recent social trend. I think we should go back to sending cops in to raid gay bars and outlaw sodomy personally.

Would you outlaw it for both heterosexuals and homosexuals alike? And how would you possibly enforce it?

"What!?"
"How could you be such an evil bigot?!"
"You just an angry repressed homosexual yourself!"
"Backward uneducated Jesus freak!"
"You aren't a true Christian, don't judge!"

OK, I won’t say any of the above, if you promise not to call my son or other close family, whom I dearly love, evil, or a “sodomite” (which really only describes people from the city of Sodom anyway).

- Homosexuality is not genetic or otherwise and inherent inborn trait, simple twin studies prove that. There are several documented cases of one identical twin being an active and open homosexual and the other a normal married family man with children.

Maybe not so simple? What do actual scientists and clinical researchers have to say?

2014
A genetic analysis of 409 pairs of gay brothers, including sets of twins, has provided the strongest evidence yet that gay people are born gay. The study clearly links sexual orientation in men with two regions of the human genome that have been implicated before, one on the X chromosome and one on chromosome 8.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... z64cl1sauB

A 2019 study involving over 500,000 people, has the headline, “No ‘Gay Gene’”, but toward the bottom of the article they admit…” For their second analysis, Ganna and his colleagues wanted to see which particular SNPs were associated with same-sex sexual behaviours, and found five that were more common among those individuals. However, those five SNPs collectively explained less than 1% of the variation in sexual behaviour. This suggests that there are a lot of genes that influence sexual behaviour, many of which researchers haven’t found yet, says Ganna. An even larger sample size could help to identify those missing variants, he says.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02585-6

And here is one from 2015:
A new study of male twins, scheduled for presentation at the annual meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics (ASHG) in Baltimore, Maryland, today, could help explain that paradox. It finds that epigenetic effects, chemical modifications of the human genome that alter gene activity without changing the DNA sequence, may have a major influence on sexual orientation.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/10 ... ations-dna

The point is, the jury is still out (contrary to your stated beliefs). You might be surprised to learn you really don't have everything figured out (for yourself nor for anyone else). And neither do I.

I strongly believe that God doesn't want anyone to be forced into a life of celibacy and loneliness. I believe that part of the Plan of Happiness is indeed finding someone to share this life with and to learn the real deep lessons of unconditional love, charity and commitment. If that were not true, why would the Church focus so much on marriage and family. Just because someone is gay is not a reason to forbid all those experiences that are gained from committed relationships.

This is actually the only piece of information that matters out of everything you posted:

"A 2019 study involving over 500,000 people, has the headline, “No ‘Gay Gene’"

That's right, the rest is just fluff, assumptions, and probably wishful thinking on the part of what are almost certainly politically motivated and biased researchers. All that incentive, all that grant money and there is still no "gay gene" and no solid evidence that homosexuality is an inborn trait. After all these years, decades even, there is no evidence people are born gay but that doesn't stop the lie from being repeated by activists, academics, and media personalities the world over.

You have a son who's gay and don't want him attacked and slandered? I can respect that, a good father protects his son. I know this one trait or pattern of behavior doesn't make a person inherently evil and I haven't been in either you or your son's shoes on this issue so I can't tell you or him how to deal with it on a personal level. But this goes beyond you and your son. This goes beyond any one person. Homosexuality on a societal level, and the way it's being sanctioned, promoted, and mandated in so many aspects of our society needs to stop. What's evil isn't the individual who is homosexual, it's the activisim, the agenda that are evil. And most people involved in promoting it aren't even homosexual themselves.

My 7-year-old daughter is constantly told by her friends at school and church (yes that's right, at church) that boys can marry boys and girls can marry girls. Technically that is true by the government's definition. But she's 7 for Pete's sake!

She was on the verge of tears the other day because she tries to tell them they're wrong, then they gang up on her. (The tears were for being ganged up on and outnumbered). Keep in mind that I don't brainwash hetero marriage into her head. I keep her innocent and teach her the basics of the Holy Ghost and Jesus. So it's not like she's waging this war on my account, trust me.

Now she's coming home from school with rainbows on every single drawing. The rainbows themselves are fine. I like rainbows. What bothers be is that I know about her teachers. They give positive feedback on the rainbows. Kids naturally love to show their drawings to their teachers and I just know that she gets an "oh I loooove that's drawing" when it's a rainbow. And "oh that's um ... interesting" when it's a picture of Jesus.

The conditioning and peer pressure at the age of 7 is ridiculous.

If that doesn't bother you, just create a hypothetical thought experiment about your children and swap the gay ideology out with something you don't like.

My five year old asked me about men marrying men and I just told him that is very wicked and God doesn’t want us to do that and the people who break God’s commandments and do it anyway will be very unhappy.

Is it possible for you to make changes to your situation that would enable homeschooling? Or are you able to go to war with the school to demand they stop brainwashing? It breaks my heart to see kids in that situation.

[mahalanobis]

Would you outlaw it for both heterosexuals and homosexuals alike? And how would you possibly enforce it?


OK, I won’t say any of the above, if you promise not to call my son or other close family, whom I dearly love, evil, or a “sodomite” (which really only describes people from the city of Sodom anyway).



Maybe not so simple? What do actual scientists and clinical researchers have to say?

2014
A genetic analysis of 409 pairs of gay brothers, including sets of twins, has provided the strongest evidence yet that gay people are born gay. The study clearly links sexual orientation in men with two regions of the human genome that have been implicated before, one on the X chromosome and one on chromosome 8.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... z64cl1sauB

A 2019 study involving over 500,000 people, has the headline, “No ‘Gay Gene’”, but toward the bottom of the article they admit…” For their second analysis, Ganna and his colleagues wanted to see which particular SNPs were associated with same-sex sexual behaviours, and found five that were more common among those individuals. However, those five SNPs collectively explained less than 1% of the variation in sexual behaviour. This suggests that there are a lot of genes that influence sexual behaviour, many of which researchers haven’t found yet, says Ganna. An even larger sample size could help to identify those missing variants, he says.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02585-6

And here is one from 2015:
A new study of male twins, scheduled for presentation at the annual meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics (ASHG) in Baltimore, Maryland, today, could help explain that paradox. It finds that epigenetic effects, chemical modifications of the human genome that alter gene activity without changing the DNA sequence, may have a major influence on sexual orientation.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/10 ... ations-dna

The point is, the jury is still out (contrary to your stated beliefs). You might be surprised to learn you really don't have everything figured out (for yourself nor for anyone else). And neither do I.

I strongly believe that God doesn't want anyone to be forced into a life of celibacy and loneliness. I believe that part of the Plan of Happiness is indeed finding someone to share this life with and to learn the real deep lessons of unconditional love, charity and commitment. If that were not true, why would the Church focus so much on marriage and family. Just because someone is gay is not a reason to forbid all those experiences that are gained from committed relationships.

This is actually the only piece of information that matters out of everything you posted:

"A 2019 study involving over 500,000 people, has the headline, “No ‘Gay Gene’"

That's right, the rest is just fluff, assumptions, and probably wishful thinking on the part of what are almost certainly politically motivated and biased researchers. All that incentive, all that grant money and there is still no "gay gene" and no solid evidence that homosexuality is an inborn trait. After all these years, decades even, there is no evidence people are born gay but that doesn't stop the lie from being repeated by activists, academics, and media personalities the world over.

You have a son who's gay and don't want him attacked and slandered? I can respect that, a good father protects his son. I know this one trait or pattern of behavior doesn't make a person inherently evil and I haven't been in either you or your son's shoes on this issue so I can't tell you or him how to deal with it on a personal level. But this goes beyond you and your son. This goes beyond any one person. Homosexuality on a societal level, and the way it's being sanctioned, promoted, and mandated in so many aspects of our society needs to stop. What's evil isn't the individual who is homosexual, it's the activisim, the agenda that are evil. And most people involved in promoting it aren't even homosexual themselves.

My 7-year-old daughter is constantly told by her friends at school and church (yes that's right, at church) that boys can marry boys and girls can marry girls. Technically that is true by the government's definition. But she's 7 for Pete's sake!

She was on the verge of tears the other day because she tries to tell them they're wrong, then they gang up on her. (The tears were for being ganged up on and outnumbered). Keep in mind that I don't brainwash hetero marriage into her head. I keep her innocent and teach her the basics of the Holy Ghost and Jesus. So it's not like she's waging this war on my account, trust me.

Now she's coming home from school with rainbows on every single drawing. The rainbows themselves are fine. I like rainbows. What bothers be is that I know about her teachers. They give positive feedback on the rainbows. Kids naturally love to show their drawings to their teachers and I just know that she gets an "oh I loooove that's drawing" when it's a rainbow. And "oh that's um ... interesting" when it's a picture of Jesus.

The conditioning and peer pressure at the age of 7 is ridiculous.

If that doesn't bother you, just create a hypothetical thought experiment about your children and swap the gay ideology out with something you don't like.

My five year old asked me about men marrying men and I just told him that is very wicked and God doesn’t want us to do that and the people who break God’s commandments and do it anyway will be very unhappy.

Is it possible for you to make changes to your situation that would enable homeschooling? Or are you able to go to war with the school to demand they stop brainwashing? It breaks my heart to see kids in that situation.

I said something similar to her.

Regarding the school: they have plausible deniability. Saying "oh I loooove that drawing" to a rainbow doesn't really mean anything. I also can't get on the school's case about what her friends say to her, especially if what they're saying is PC. As for church, it's her friends from church and I'm pretty sure it's not happening AT church.

I'm going to move, but it's going to take some time. She's young enough that she trusts me more than them... For now.

[Eulate]

The only compromise I could see that might make some happy, but not others, is to reinstate polygamy and then encourage women who want to be in relationships with other women to get married to a man who will be the father of their kids.

I know there are a couple people here who might wish to mock this, but it has been proposed that the reason lesbianism is not condemned in the Old Testament was because the emphasis was not as much on sex as it was on reproduction and if a man had seven wives, and two of them were more than just sister wives, as long as they were reproducing then no problem.

Not mocking but lesbianism or bisexuality have no justification whatsoever. Even if not specifically questioned in any scripture.

It seems like for the first time Disney Channel is having a bisexual woman as portrayed in one episode so far. The layout is clearly studied in order to imitate a real situation including complicit gazes between the two girls, hands holding, and telling she "discovered" something new.

It's grows. She never was bi or Lesbian. And the very same thing happens in real life. Lots of stupid people try "new things" (with their own sex) and then dilute themselves into thinking that they hadn't realized they were gay or bi or otherwise stayed in denial, but were gay or bi all along. The truth is anyone could turn into those things. One thing is feeling attracted to the same sex, and something different is to experiment. & it's the same with the so called "tolerant with their lgtb friends". If a girl that is completely straight & has a Lesbian friend that hits on her for long enough: dating, being conforted when sad, receiving love cards, flowers... If the straight girl doesn't cut that from the root straight away then the straight girl "will realize" (will deceive herself really) that she was Lesbian or at least bi, but didn't realize or want to admit it. If a girl has a Lesbian friend that hits on her that friend is not a good friend. She mostly wants to win another convert for the LGTB cause or to go to bed with her. Respect for LGTB people, yes. But everybody else also needs to receive respect from them. Not all are the same, but the ones that hit on heterosexual people can't expect respect. A girl that doesn't want to become a Lesbian or a bi shouldn't hang out with girls that hit on her & should say very clearly, very straight forward. Something like: I respect you, but if you are gonna hit on me I don't want to have anything to do because I wanna keep being straight. Call me bigot, fascist, blackmail me or call me whatever you want, but I won't fall for it. If you don't respect me I don't want to have anything to do with you. And, yes, this gross episode portrays that evil plague that is aimed at extending homosexuality or bisexuality among everyone else. They don't have any boundaries.

The Lord must return very soon due to the very perilous times we live in. Perilous because the ones that think they are respectful and tolerant are just falling into the trap of becoming gay or bi for not rejecting their friends that hit on them. If that's what it takes to preserve your soul let those friendships be lost forever.

[Lizzy60]

Recently on the Mormons Building Bridges Facebook page, someone new there asked about what the bridge-building looked like as both ends (traditional LDS and all-in LGBTQ) try to meet in the middle. They were told that there is no attempt to meet in the middle -- the LDS Church needs to cross the bridge and completely accept gays (including their gay marriages,etc). Their reasoning is that they are the abused, the oppressed, the ones discriminated against, the powerless, and that NOTHING less than full acceptance, and full repentance by the Church and its leaders will build this bridge.

It got so bad that the moderators took down the entire conversation, not because they disagreed, but because the site is public, and I think they were worried that some curious or on-the-fence LDS reading their site for the first time would be totally put off by their demands, their accusations, their anger.

What they want is for the Church to believe that their gay sex, and their gay marriages are loved and sanctioned by God, and nothing less.

[mahalanobis]

Recently on the Mormons Building Bridges Facebook page, someone new there asked about what the bridge-building looked like as both ends (traditional LDS and all-in LGBTQ) try to meet in the middle. They were told that there is no attempt to meet in the middle -- the LDS Church needs to cross the bridge and completely accept gays (including their gay marriages,etc). Their reasoning is that they are the abused, the oppressed, the ones discriminated against, the powerless, and that NOTHING less than full acceptance, and full repentance by the Church and its leaders will build this bridge.

It got so bad that the moderators took down the entire conversation, not because they disagreed, but because the site is public, and I think they were worried that some curious or on-the-fence LDS reading their site for the first time would be totally put off by their demands, their accusations, their anger.

What they want is for the Church to believe that their gay sex, and their gay marriages are loved and sanctioned by God, and nothing less.

You have a snapshot or a cached link?

[Lizzy60]

Recently on the Mormons Building Bridges Facebook page, someone new there asked about what the bridge-building looked like as both ends (traditional LDS and all-in LGBTQ) try to meet in the middle. They were told that there is no attempt to meet in the middle -- the LDS Church needs to cross the bridge and completely accept gays (including their gay marriages,etc). Their reasoning is that they are the abused, the oppressed, the ones discriminated against, the powerless, and that NOTHING less than full acceptance, and full repentance by the Church and its leaders will build this bridge.

It got so bad that the moderators took down the entire conversation, not because they disagreed, but because the site is public, and I think they were worried that some curious or on-the-fence LDS reading their site for the first time would be totally put off by their demands, their accusations, their anger.

What they want is for the Church to believe that their gay sex, and their gay marriages are loved and sanctioned by God, and nothing less.

You have a snapshot or a cached link?

I'm sorry, I don't. The original post was just fine, with a cartoon-type illustration of people on either side of a bridge and a few people in the middle of the bridge laying the last brick or whatever. His question also seemed sincere. However, the comments soon devolved into how abusive, demeaning, and oppressive the mainstream LDS church is, especially the leaders at the top.