LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **October 4th, 2019, 7:42 am**

The short list (see Appendix 2) of those who taught that Jesus is the "Angel of the LORD", or that Michael is the Son (aka Jesus) of God (the Father), uncreated and eternal "Angel (messenger) of the LORD (Father)", Deity, Creator, etc.

Melito of Sardis (wrote AD 165 – AD 175, died c. AD 180 – Jesus is “among the angels, archangel”

Roman Catholic Encyclopedia: Jesus is the Angel of the Great Counsel, the Angel of the LORD, etc

Augustine of Hippo (AD 13 November 354 – AD 28 August 430) Jesus is the “Angel of the Testament”, etc

Irenaeus (AD early 2nd century – c. AD 202) Jesus is the one that came down and spoke to the Patriarchs under the designation “Angel”.

Titus Flavius Clemens (Greek: Κλήμης ὁ Ἀλεξανδρεύς; c. 150 – c. 215), known as Clement of Alexandria – Jesus is the “Angel of the Great Counsel”.

Justin Martyr, also known as Saint Justin (c. AD 100 – AD 165) – Jesus is called “Angel”, etc

Eusebius (AD 260/265 – AD 339/340); also called Eusebius of Caesarea and Eusebius Pamphili, - Jesus is called the “Angel of the mighty counsel”.

Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, anglicised as Tertullian (c. AD 160 – c. AD 225 AD) – Jesus is the ‘Angel’ that spake to Moses from the midst of the bush.

Roman Catholic New American Bible with Footnotes [along with Douay Rheims], 1986: - Jesus is the “Lord’s Angel”, and “Angel of the LORD”, and etc.

Charles Buck (AD 1771 – AD 11 Aug 1815) Jesus is called “Angel” and “Archangel”.

John Butterworth, minister (born AD 1727- died AD 1803) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Alexander Cruden (AD May 31, 1699 – AD November 1, 1770) – Jesus is called “Angel”.

Thomas Taylor (AD 15 May 1758 – AD 1 November 1835) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Patrick Fairbairn (AD 28 January 1805 – AD 6 August 1874) – Jesus is “Michael”.

William Baxter Godbey (AD June 3, 1833 - AD September 12, 1920) cites Dr. Clarke that Jesus is “Michael”.

Matthew Pool[e] – (AD 1624 – AD 1679) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Sir William Smith (AD 20 May 1813 – AD 7 October 1893) – Jesus is “Michael” and cites others Luther, Hengstenberg, etc.

Thomas Coke (AD 9 September 1747 – AD 2 May 1814) – Jesus is “Michael”.

John Guyse (AD 1680 - AD 1761) – Jesus is “Michael”, and called “Angel”, etc

Elhanan Winchester (AD 1751 in Brookline, Massachusetts – AD April 18, 1797) – Jesus is “Michael”.

George Sale (AD 1697, Canterbury, Kent, England – AD 1736, London, England) ; George Psalmanazar (AD 1679? - AD 1763),; Archibald Bower (AD 17 January 1686 – AD 3 September 1766) ; George D. Shelvocke (baptised AD 1 April 1675 - AD 30 November 1742) ; John Campbell (AD 1708 - AD 1775); John Swinton (AD 1703 - AD 1777) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Church of England Magazine. Under the superintendence of the clergymen of the United Church of England and Ireland. Vol. IV. No. 85; January 6, 1838. By James Burns. – Jesus is “Michael”.

Robert Hawker (AD 1753 – AD 1827) – Jesus is “Michael” and “Archangel”.

Samuel Horsley (AD 15 September 1733 – AD 4 October 1806) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The London Encyclopedia, or Universal Dictionary … 1839. – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible; Volume 4; M-P, Revised, Full-Color Edition; - cites that many Protestants, Hengstenberg, etc that Jesus is “Michael”.

Zondervan NIV Study Bible (Fully Revised): Wide Margin Loose-Leaf Edition; copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society. – Jesus is the “angel of the Lord”, etc.

Hermann Witsius (Herman Wits or in Latin Hermannus Witsius) (AD 12 February 1636 – AD 22 October 1708) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Reinerus Vogelsangius (AD 1610 - AD 1679) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Johannes Cloppenburg (AD 1592 - AD 1652) - Jesus is Michael the “Angel of the Lord”.

Ralph Griffiths (AD c.1720 – AD September 28, 1803) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Campegius Vitringa Sr., or Kempe Vitringa[1] (born at Leeuwarden, May 16, 1659; died at Franeker, March 31, 1722) – Jesus is “Michael” the “Archangel”.

Martin Luther (AD 10 November 1483 – AD 18 February 1546) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Philipp Melanchthon (AD 16 February 1497 – AD 19 April 1560) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann Wigand (ca. AD 1523 - AD 21 October 1587) – Jesus is “Michael”.

David Chytraeus or Chyträus (26 February 1530, Ingelfingen – 25 June 1600, Rostock) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Giovanni Diodati or Deodati (AD 6 June 1576 – AD 3 October 1649) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Andrew Willet (AD 1562 – AD 4 December 1621) - Jesus is “Michael”.

William Miller (AD February 15, 1782 – AD December 20, 1849) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Ellen G. White (AD November 26, 1827 – AD July 16, 1915) – Jesus is “Michael”

Carl L. Beckwith, - Jesus is “Michael”.

Robert W. Bertram (AD 27 March 1921 - AD 13 March 2003) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Dr. Frances N. Lee (AD 1934 - AD Friday 23rd December, 2011) - - Jesus is “Michael”.

David Harold Chilton (AD 1951 – AD 1997) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Milton Spenser Terry (AD 1840 - AD 1914) - Jesus is “Michael”.

George Whitefield - December 27 [O.S. December 16] 1714 – September 30, 1770) speaks by symbol, Jesus is our “Michael”.

James Petigru Boyce (AD 1827 – AD 1888) citing John Pye-Smith, Jesus is “probably” “Michael”.

The Rev Dr John Pye-Smith FRS, FGS (AD 25 May 1774 - AD 5 February 1851) - Jesus is “probably” “Michael”.

Christmas Evans (AD 25 December 1766 – AD 19 July 1838) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Christian Gleaner and Domestic Magazine
The Christian Gleaner and Domestic Magazine for 1825, Volume II; London; published by B. J. Holdsworth, 18, St. Paul's Churchyard. – Jesus is “Michael”.

Carl Ferdinand Wilhelm Walther (AD October 25, 1811 – AD May 7, 1887) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Gill (AD 23 November 1697 – AD 14 October 1771) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Charles Spurgeon (AD 9 June 1834 – AD 31 January 1892) Jesus is the “True Michael”.

Matthew Henry (AD 18 October 1662 – AD 22 June 1714) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Adams (AD 1583 – AD 1653) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Heinrich [Henry] Bullinger (AD 18 July 1504 – AD 17 September 1575) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Isaac Watts (AD 17 July 1674 – AD 25 November 1748) - Jesus is “Michael”.

William Kinkade (AD 22nd Sept. 1783 - AD 20th Sept. 1832) [became Arian later; Heresy] - Jesus is “Michael”.

Jonathan Edwards (AD October 5, 1703 – AD March 22, 1758) - Jesus is “Michael”.

1560/1599 Geneva Study Bible- Jesus is “Michael”.

John [Jean] Calvin (born Jehan Cauvin: AD 10 July 1509 – AD 27 May 1564) - Jesus is “Michael” and does not disagree with others who see the same.

Francois Du Jon aka Franciscus Junius (born François du Jon, AD 1 May 1545 – AD 13 October 1602) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Wesley (AD 28 June [O.S. 17 June] 1703 – AD 2 March 1791) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Brown of Haddington (AD 1722 – AD 19 June 1787) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Wood (AD 1751 – AD 1840) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Ernst Wilhelm Theodor Herrmann Hengstenberg (AD October 20, 1802, Fröndenberg – AD May 28, 1869, Berlin- Jesus is “Michael”.

Wikipedia, The Online Encyclopedia – Michael (Archangel); subsection - “Protestant Views” – cites John A. Lees, and Hengstenberg, Jesus is “Michael”.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, comment on section “Michael” by John A. Lees. - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Bunyan (AD 28 November 1628 – AD 31 August 1688) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Henry Ainsworth (AD 1571 – AD 1622) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Watson (c. AD 1620 – AD 1686) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Glasgow D.D. (AD 27 May 1805 – AD 1890 ) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Hastings (AD 1852 – AD 1922) and George Cunninghame Monteath Douglas (AD 1826 – AD 1904- Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Hobbes Scott (17 April 1783 – 1 January 1860) - Jesus may indeed be “Michael” as “many” others say.

Hezekiah Holland (born ca. AD 1617, living AD 1660) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Adam Clarke (AD 1760 or AD 1762 – AD 1832) - Jesus is “Michael”.

George Balderston Kidd (Cottingham, near Hull, AD 28 July 1794 – AD 1852) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Durham (AD 1622 – AD 1658) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Bryce Johnston (AD 1747 - AD 1805) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Vine's Expository Dictionary, by William Edwy Vine Section: "archangel” – the “archangels” “voice” is the “voice” of Jesus.

Thomas Haweis (AD 1 January 1734 - AD February 11, 1820) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Abingdon Bible Commentary, 1929; Editor, Edwin Lewis (AD 1881 – AD 1959) was an American Methodist theologian primarily associated with Drew University in New Jersey. Others involved - Frederick Carl Eiselen; David G. Downey. - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann [John] Peter Lange (AD 10 April 1802 in Sonneborn (now a part of Wuppertal) – AD 9 July 1884), and Elijah Richard Craven (AD Mar. 28 1824, in Washington D.C. - AD Jan. 5 1908, in Philadelphia, Pa) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Robinson (AD 1813/14 - AD 1890) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann Friedrich Haug ((AD * 1680, AD † 18. May 1753) and The Berlenburger Bibel [aka 'Berleb. Bible', 'Berleburger Bibel', etc.] is in the years AD 1726 - AD 1742) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Revelation 12 is the real key as it has an unbreakable structure (John 10:35)., as seen in this thread - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=52765#p967770

[A1] Revelation 12:1-5 = Woman, Child and Dragon

[B1] Revelation 12:6 = Woman in Wilderness for 1,260 days [years]

[C1] Revelation 12:7-9 = War between Michael and Satan in Heaven

[D1] Revelation 12:10 = Cross, Power of Christ, His Victory

[D2] Revelation 12:11 = Lamb, Blood of Christ, Their [overcoming saints] Victory in Him

[C2] Revelation 12:12 = Dragon permanently cast down to Earth fights against Jesus' body

[B2] Revelation 12:13-16 = Woman in Wilderness, for a time, and times, and half a time [aka, 3 1/2 times or 1,260 days [years]]

[A2] Revelation 12:17 = Woman, her Seed and Dragon

This places the terms in Revelation 12 in co-definition, or parallel (see Chapter 07).

An example of another parallelism within the greater:

Revelation 12:7 KJB - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

[A1] Michael – Leader

[B1] his angels – Followers

[A2] Dragon – Leader

[B2] his angels - Followers

Looking at these two combatants, compare the surrounding context, this time starting with “the Dragon”, followed with “Michael”:

[1] “the Dragon” and his several titles in Revelation 12:

“Dragon” - Revelation 12:3,4,7,9,13,16,17 KJB

“serpent” - Revelation 12:9,14,15 KJB

“Devil” - Revelation 12:9,12 KJB

“Satan” - Revelation 12:9 KJB

“accuser of our brethren” - Revelation 12:10 KJB

“his” [angels] - Revelation 12:7,9 KJB

Compare also:

“neither was their place found any more in heaven” - Revelation 12:8 KJB

“was cast out … cast out into the earth” - Revelation 12:9 KJB

“is cast down” - Revelation 12:10 KJB

[2] “Michael” and his several titles in Revelation 12:

“Michael” - Revelation 12:7 KJB

“Lamb” - Revelation 12:11 KJB

“child” - Revelation 12:2,4,5 KJB

“man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron” - Revelation 12:5,13 KJB

“seed” - Revelation 12:17 KJB

“it” - Revelation 12:4 KJB

“Jesus” [even the “testimony” of] - Revelation 12:17 KJB

“Christ” - Revelation 12:10,17

“his” [angels] – Revelation 12:7 KJB

Compare also:

“caught up unto God, and to his throne.” - Revelation 12:5 KJB

“rule all” - Revelation 12:5 KJB

After considering these things, let some questions be asked, and fill them in by the texts of the King James Bible themselves:

Who is the “Dragon” of Revelation 12:3,4,7,9,13,16,17 KJB?

Who is the “serpent” of Revelation 12:9,14,15 KJB?

Who is the “devil” of Revelation 12:9,12 KJB?

Who is the “Satan” of Revelation 12:9 KJB?

Who is the “accuser of the brethren” of Revelation 12:10 KJB?

Who was “cast out” of Revelation 12:9 KJB?

Who was “cast down” of Revelation 12:10 KJB?

Who is the one which “cast out of his mouth water as a flood” of Revelation 12:15,16 KJB?

Are there any “angels” which belong, “his”, to the singular person in the verses cited, KJB?

Does the fallen arch-rebel have many designations, KJB?

According to the text of Revelation 12:7 KJB, what is the arch-rebel's designation in “heaven” in this verse?

Who opposes the “Dragon”?

Who opposes the “serpent”?

Who opposes the “devil”?

Who opposes the “Satan”?

Who opposes the “accuser of the brethren”?

Whose “angels” oppose the “angels” of that "Dragon"?

Revelation 12 KJB:

Is there a “woman” and a “child” and a “Dragon” in Revelation 12:1-6 KJB?

Is there a “woman” entering into a “wilderness” for “a thousand two hundred and threescore days” [1,260 days; aka “1 time + 2 times [dual; plural of time] and half/dividing of time”; aka “42 months”] in Revelation 12:6 KJB?

Is there a “war” in “Heaven” between “Michael” [and “his angels”] and “the Dragon” [and “his angels”], wherein “the Dragon and his angels” were “cast out” and “neither was their place found any more in heaven” in Revelation 12:7-9 KJB?

Did the “power of his [the Father's] Christ” on earth gain the “victory” and “salvation” over and from the “accuser of our brethren” in Revelation 12:10 KJB?

Did “they” on earth also “overcome” “him” [the accuser] by the “blood of the lamb” and by “the word of their testimony” in Revelation 12:11 KJB?

Is there “rejoic[ing]” in the “Heavens” for them “that dwell in them”, but yet “woe” to the “inhabiters of the earth and of the sea” for the “Dragon” being cast out of “Heaven” is now “come down” unto them and was full of “wrath” and “persecuted” the Church in Revelation 12:12-13 KJB?

Is there a “woman” entering into a “wilderness” for “a time, and times, and half a time ” [1 time + 2 times [dual; plural of time] and half/dividing of time' aka 1,260 days [“a thousand two hundred and threescore days”]; aka “42 months”] in Revelation 12:14 KJB?

Is there a “woman” and the “remnant” of “her seed” [aka “child”] and a “Dragon” in Revelation 12:15-17 KJB?

Revelation 12 KJB

Whose “angels” oppose the “angels” of that Michael"?

Who opposes the one which has the True “testimony"?

Who opposes the “Christ”, even "Jesus Christ"?

Who opposes the “child", even the "man child" and "it"?

Who opposes the “lamb”?

Who opposes “Michael”?

According to the text of Revelation 12:7 KJB, what is the arch-defender's designation in “heaven” in this verse?

Does the Son of God have many designations?

Are there any “angels” which belong, “his”, to the singular person in the verses cited, KJB?

Who is the one who has a “testimony” of Revelation 12:17 KJB?

Who is the one to “who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron” of Revelation 12:5 KJB?

Who is the one “caught up” of Revelation 12:5 KJB?

Who is the “seed” of Revelation 12:17 KJB?

Who is the “child” and “man child” and “it” of Revelation 12:2,4,5,13 KJB?

Who is the “Christ” and “Jesus Christ” of Revelation 12:10,17 KJB?

Who is the “lamb” of Revelation 12:11 KJB?

Who is “Michael” of Revelation 12:7 KJB?

If the structure is truly Chiastic in its nature, then can the identification of the beings therein ever be broken [even according to John 10:35 KJB]?

If the Church is the Woman on the earth, and she the Body in Revelation 12:11-13 KJB and the Dragon fought against her, who then is the Heavenly Head in Revelation 12:7-9 KJB, who the Dragon warred against there?

Then there are other ways to clearly identify through parallelism (see Chapter 09-G).

The “Angel of the LORD” stands by Joshua the high priest defending him, and Satan resists him. Then the text says that the “LORD” says, “The LORD rebuke thee.” to Satan, whom also stood by Joshua the high priest, on the other side resisting and accusing Joshua the high priest, during the Day of Atonement in Zechariah:

Zechariah 3:1 KJB - And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Zechariah 3:2 KJB - And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Zechariah 3:3 KJB - Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

Zechariah 3:4 KJB - And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

Zechariah 3:5 KJB - And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

Zechariah 3:6 KJB - And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,

Zechariah 3:7 KJB - Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

Zechariah 3:8 KJB - Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Zechariah 3:9 KJB - For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Zechariah 3:10 KJB - In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

“Michael the archangel” says, “The LORD rebuke thee.” to the devil [Satan], when Michael came down from Heaven to resurrect Moses [Matthew 17:1-12; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-36; John 11:25; 2 Peter 1:16; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9 KJB] in Jude 1:9 KJB:

Jude 1:9 KJB - Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

A further text to consider, in regards a disputation between “Michael” and the devil, is found in Daniel 10:13 KJB:

Daniel 10:13 KJB - But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

The final text to consider, in regards a disputation between “Michael” and the devil, the “Dragon”, is found in Revelation 12:7 KJB:

Revelation 12:7 KJB - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Please notice the parallels between these accounts:
[01]

Daniel 10:13 KJB - “... Michael, one of the chief princes ...”

Zechariah 3:1-6 KJB - “... The Angel of the LORD ...”

Jude 1:9 KJB - “... Michael the archangel ...”

Revelation 12:7 KJB - “... Michael and his angels ...”

[02]

Daniel 10:13 KJB - “... the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood [me, Gabriel a lesser arch-angel, but then Michael/Jesus arrives to “help” Gabriel withstand and overcome the arguments of the devil] ...”

Zechariah 3:1 KJB - “... Satan standing at his right hand to resist him ...”

Jude 1:9 KJB - “... the devil disputed ...”

Revelation 12:7 KJB - “... fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels ...”

[03]

Daniel 10:13 KJB - “... came to help me [Gabriel, the lesser arch-angel] ...”

Zechariah 3:1-10 KJB - “… Joshua ...”, the high priest, servant of the LORD

Jude 1:9 KJB - “... Moses ...”, the prophet, servant of the LORD

Revelation 12:7 KJB - “... and his angels [like Gabriel, the lesser arch-angel, Seraphim, Cherubim, etc.] ...”

[04]

Daniel 10:13 KJB - [there is no direct parallel in this passage to the other two, but the absence thereof would parallel in chiastic nature that of Revelation 12:7 KJB]

Zechariah 3:2 KJB - [The LORD Himself said:] “... The LORD rebuke thee ...”, “... even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee ...”

Jude 1:9 KJB - [Michael the archangel said:] “... said, The Lord rebuke thee ...”

Revelation 12:7 KJB - [there is no direct parallel in this passage to the other two, but the absence thereof would parallel in chiastic nature that of Daniel 10:13 KJB]

Please notice that in Zechariah 3 KJB, that the “Angel of the LORD”, whom is also stated as “the LORD” [being Jesus] who was speaking, says to Satan, “... the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?”

In comparing the two, Jude 1:9 and Zechariah 3 KJB, we see the servants of God, Moses and Joshua the priest, are being accused to God, by Satan, because of their sin. For instance, Joshua the high priest is clothed in “filthy garments” [Zechariah 3:3,4], and clothing in scripture, represents the character:

Posted: **October 4th, 2019, 6:37 pm**

I am aware of all of those scriptures and the interpretation(s) thereof. I was where you are in my understanding about ten years ago. I only knew of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit model of the Godhead. I was 90% convinced in my intellect that the SDA and JW and all those people you mentioned were correct and that Michael was the preincarnate Jesus and that he once again became known in heaven as Michael after his ascension. The fact that the naysayers of this understanding all use critically flawed arguments to the contrary that when undone even support the theory that Jesus and Michael are the same personage made it difficult not to submit to the intellect that they are the same. And yet in my Spirit I absolutely KNOW that they are not the same.

If one does not know what truly constitutes the Father in the KJV they remain stuck in the three personage structure of the Godhead. It is a valid model however that model is not all inclusive of the complete constitution of the Father. The true Godhead is bigger than just the Trinity.

To understand the Godhead and its significance to us we must first understand what the title God means and what the phrases, "my God" and "his God" mean. And we need to understand that God, LORD and Lord are not synonymous.

Psalm 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

This Psalm is interpreted to be just about Jesus. It is not. The person talking in 22:10 is talking to the LORD acknowledging that the LORD is his God as a circumstance of birth. That is the God, child of God relationship. It started with Adam and Eve and is passed down generation to generation. Not only in the physical but also in the spiritual because the Christ Spirit was in Adam and Eve in the form of a soul. A tiny "mustard seed" size portion of the soul (the seed of the woman, the Christ within, the kingdom of God within us) of our parents is propagated to their children, to us. And that is why Jesus is our God. The Father is the God of Jesus because the Father begat Jesus. The Father is also our God through Jesus. In other words the Godhead is an unbroken chain of generation.

It does not mean that there was not additional generation that proceeded from the Father. There in fact was additional generation from the Father that are Lords but are called angels in Hebrews. Jesus was made better than these other Lords and placed in charge of them. That is why Jesus is LORD of Lords and the LORD of host. Michael interpreted, as you know, means, "who is like unto God". The answer is all the angels (Spirits) that proceeded from the Father are like unto God. In a sense they are all Michael. However there is one that is TGP as you know. It is important to realize that the angels in Hebrews 1 are from before the creation. They are not of this creation.

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Even though these other Spirits of God are not our God because they are not in our line of generation they are one with the Father and do interact with man. And if you see one of them then you have "seen God". There is He that "hath the seven Spirits of God. That is Jesus. That means that there are seven other Lords and all of them incarnate at some point in time.

One of the biggest mistakes is that people try to understand the Bible sequentially. They assume just because one line is speaking about the church that the next line is also speaking about the church. The Bible is not supposed to be understood that way. It will lead to error.

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

It was unto them like that but people do not comprehend that and therefore they err. The Lord of host's messenger will not fall into that.

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

The main point being is that the LORD of host, Jesus, sends a messenger just before he appears "near" in the clouds, "at that time".

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD (should be Lord), whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

In Hebrews 1 we see how Jesus became the LORD of host. In Revelation we see the other seven Lords, Spirits of God. Also we see that they all incarnate at some point. You might disagree with this point. But it is absolutely necessary for them also to receive the baptism by water for them to enter into the kingdom of God in the new heavens and new earth. Why? Because they also need to receive a new body that is compatible with the new creation. And that new body comes on account of the generation from Adam and Eve and the seed that is produced.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

It is the case that "your seed" does not refer to your progeny as is universally taught.

1Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

This seed is produced by our soul which comes from our parents which came from Adam and Eve which came from Christ. So being born on earth is the only way to get this seed in order to be born into the kingdom of God in the new heavens and new earth. That was an important precept to understand but now back to the main topic.

The messenger of Malachi 3 is Lord but he is not the LORD of host which is Jesus. This other Lord is the messenger of the covenant. Here he is seen in heaven before being born on earth.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

This Lord, one of the seven Spirits of God, comes before the end and he is sent by the LORD of host, Jesus. However he returns to heaven (which is not explicitly stated in Malachi 3) because he then returns again to the earth with Jesus.

Malachi 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

But He does not return alone.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (Jesus), and of his Christ (anointed one); and he shall reign for ever and ever.

That means that sometime after the messenger comes he is caught up to heaven or otherwise how could he return with the LORD. And without understanding that there is more than one Lord then how can one come to correct conclusions. Jesus does not descend down to this earth. We will see Jesus return in like manner to how we saw him ascend and his foot will touch the mount of Olives but we will be standing on the new earth when we see it. The LORD of host only comes near to this earth.

Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; ...

Jesus only comes near in the clouds and angels (one angel in particular) raise the dead and gather the people.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is important to understand that Jesus does not blow the trumpet. An angel does. The angel that is in command of the angels sent to gather the elect blows the trumpet.

1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Because it is not understood that there is more than one personage known as Lord it is assumed that the Lord in Thes 4:16 has to be Jesus. But it is not. It is a Lord that has the trump (authority) of God. And he has the voice of the archangel. He is the anointed one of Rev 11:15. Which we know as the messenger of Mal 3 and the mighty and strong one of Isa 28. He is also the one that stands of Mic 5:3&4. He comes to earth, is caught up and then returns with Jesus to rule the nations. He is the man child.

The man child is very special. So special that the man child becomes a child of our God by birth into this world. So Jesus by the man child's birth becomes his God. But more than that he is given the highest anointing by Jesus.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

This special anointing is not for the church. It is too special to be passed around like candy.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psalm 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psalm 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Psalm 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Notice that nowhere in the above did I say that Jesus and Michael are not the same. I only presented knowledge that you may not have had. Maybe you will reassess your conclusions and maybe you will not. But I think it is important to consider this topic!

Posted: **October 4th, 2019, 6:51 pm**

When I started my study of Michael TGP and who and what he is I came across many SDA videos stating that Michael was the preincarnate Jesus. It was a very convincing argument. And it made sense. I was 90% convinced that it was true. Especially in light of the naysayers arguments against Jesus being Michael being so totally flawed.

Naysayers argument 1
Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Michael being only one of the chief princes means that he cannot be Jesus. However, "one of" is a bad translation. It should say first of. Jesus is the prince of peace so he is first of the princes and isn't that what "The Great Prince" is, first.

same 1 different 0

Naysayers argument 2
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Jesus is not a created angel and Michael is, therefore Jesus and Michael are not the same. Jesus is in fact an angel but he is not a created angel in the sense of the creation. And neither is Michael a created angel in the sense of the creation. These angels in Heb 1:5 all existed before the creation. They are the seven Spirits of God. Jesus proceeded from the bosom of the Father. All seven Spirits of God proceeded from the bosom of the Father.

same 2 different 0

Naysayers argument 3
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jesus rebuked Satan directly when Satan tempted him and Michael deferred to the Lord for the rebuking, therefore Michael is not Jesus. However The Angel of the Lord in Zechariah rebuked Satan in the same manner.

Zechariah 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

same 3 different 0

Well, there were more arguments and all were refuted in the same manner. It was really starting to look like the SDA (and JW) were correct especially when the naysayers flawed arguments ended up supporting the claim. I had been on the fence but was starting to come off of the fence on the side of the SDA. And yet I KNEW it was not true. But how would I prove it? Here is the proof.

THE MESSENGER
Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

The LORD of host is Jesus. We see that in Hebrews 1. The LORD (should be Lord) that is to come is the messenger of the covenant (Michael), "saith the LORD of host (Jesus).

Isaiah 28:2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand (Michael, Rev 12:7-10).

Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Both are mighty and strong!

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? ...

Malachi 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Both are teachers!

Isaiah 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; ...

Both come just before judgement!

They are the same! There are three references to Revelation 12 in Isaiah 28. So let's go there.

THE MAN CHILD
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
...
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The man child is mentioned in Isaiah so back to Isaiah we go. (Why couldn't God put it all in one place, lol?)

Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

In Revelation 12 the woman is in travail. The man child is brought forth before her travail. Therefore the man child is not a corporate entity like the Church or Israel or whatever as some teach. Some also teach that the man child was Jesus 2000 years ago. That is not correct because the man child receives a powerful anointing from Jesus.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

How powerful of an anointing is this?

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psalm 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psalm 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The man child becomes the second begotten son of the Godhead. And, oh yeah, he is a teacher.

Psalm 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

THE ONE THAT STANDS
Micah 5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

Micah 5:4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

He stands at the time that the woman brings forth! He also receives a great anointing. The woman which travaileth is the sign of the woman in Revelation 12. Who did she bring forth? The man child. Who stands? The man child.

MiCHAEL STANDS
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And to stand means to be incarnate on the earth.

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

There is one piece missing. Does Michael receive a great anointing? Well referring back to Jude 1:9 Michael had to defer to the Lord just to rebuke Satan. Michael is far more powerful in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

So yes Michael has become more powerful!!! And the following passage should be a WOW moment for anyone with eyes to see.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation (Dan 12:1), and strength (Mic 5:4), and the kingdom of our God (Rev 11:15), and the power (Rev 12:26-28) of his Christ (anointed one): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down (by MICHAEL's hand, Isa 28:2), which accused them before our God day and night.

It is all strongly confirmed in Revelation 12:10. One really has to be blind not to see it. All the main passages given above are referenced in Revelation 12:10. A few further notes.

It is an angel that comes as a teacher.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

The messenger of Malachi 3 comes then comes back.

Malachi 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

That means the messenger is caught up and returns.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And it is the voice of the archangel that raises the dead.

Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

But wait a minute--there is only one name by which the dead can be raised.

Revelation 3:12 Him (Michael the last to go out) that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

same 0 different infinity

Michael and Jesus are not the same!

So final tally: same 0 different infinity!

LDS Freedom Forum

Michael the archangel - The Character That Will Stand (Who is Like unto God, the Highest Messenger)

Michael the archangel - The Character That Will Stand (Who is Like unto God, the Highest Messenger)

Re: Michael the archangel - The Character That Will Stand (Who is Like unto God, the Highest Messenger)

Re: Michael the archangel - The Character That Will Stand (Who is Like unto God, the Highest Messenger)