Page 2 of 2

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 23rd, 2019, 2:23 am
by Michael Sherwin
Kingdom of ZION wrote: September 22nd, 2019, 7:28 pm
Obrien wrote: September 22nd, 2019, 10:07 am
Kingdom of ZION wrote: September 22nd, 2019, 7:37 am
Michael Sherwin wrote: September 21st, 2019, 11:31 am

yea nay yea___yea yea___nay yea yea___yea yea___nay yea nay yea___yea yea nay___yea nay yea yea___nay nay nay___yea yea nay___yea yea yea
Has a babbling idiot come among us... ?
KoZ - which one are you thinking is the babbler...?
The one doing the "Yea, nay" Can-Can dance...
Like I said, you have no idea what I did there! If you did you might think it clever, lol.

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 23rd, 2019, 9:04 am
by Valo
Durzan wrote: September 21st, 2019, 4:38 pm I was going to do this earlier, but something stayed my hand then. Instead, I asked those on this board to pray for you. Now, those prayers shall come to fruition, and my hand shall not be stayed.

"In the name of the Almighty Father; in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ; and in the name of the Holy Ghost: I hereby say unto you, Michael Sherwin... Be thou cleansed!

When thou dost read these words let all unclean spirits that dwell within thee quake and tremble, for I rebuke them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; and command them to depart from thee, and henceforth never return unto thine mind."

"AMEN."
Instead of addressing the content of his post you are attacking his character and even attempting to perform some self-righteous exorcism (unless its some joke). As a moderator you should show a better example to the users here, especially since you can issue warnings to others and we can't to you.

To be clear, you are very obviously saying that Michael Sherwin is possessed by evil spirits. Cheetos was banned because he kept telling people they are apostate. This is absolutely no different.

I just keep thinking this is some joke though, otherwise, OI is right, "Physician, heal thyself!" :lol:

Valo

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 23rd, 2019, 9:25 am
by Valo
Michael Sherwin wrote: September 22nd, 2019, 11:27 am
Kingdom of ZION wrote: September 22nd, 2019, 7:37 am
Michael Sherwin wrote: September 21st, 2019, 11:31 am
Baurak Ale wrote: September 21st, 2019, 8:39 am

My communication with you ought to be yea yea or nay nay, per the context of the verses you quoted in Matthew, for you are an accuser of the brethren claiming to know the way to truth and salvation and stating that the leaders of the church are out of the way. You twist the words of the scriptures to suit your views, claiming that God ever used a beast to represent his kingdom even when his people were in transgression. You are free to believe as you please, but you manifest the fruits of apostasy and don’t understand the scriptures.

The Lord spoke truly, in times of old one should not forswear themselves but to the Lord! This truth is more stringent than ever, and in the HOUSE OF THE LORD one covenants with an oath to WHOM? Not to man, but to God. Should we be upset that the covenants there are administered by someone representing God? His house is a house of order and he often uses representatives (i.e. the prophets) when interacting with his children. If anyone who goes through the ordinances of his holy house think they are making covenants with a man, then they need to clean their ears and listen up.

Zechariah knew that God is a God of covenant, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow:

“Remember his holy covenant; the oath which he sware to our father Abraham, that he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life” (Luke 1:72-75).

It is the false teaching of the devil that has infiltrated many secret circles to say that Lucifer is God. The devil has been propositioning this from the beginning, first with our first parents, thence on to Cain, Moses, etc. It would be naïve for us to believe that the presence of this teaching would come in a full shade of black. Even Albert Pike is essentially quoting Lehi’s masterful discourse on opposition in all things, which is truth, but mingles it with the philosophies of men (or the devil). This is how Satan works. He wants all to be guilty by association for he has his fingers in all things in this world—he claims the whole of it! Joseph Smith became a mason and instantly saw right through it. He took the truth and separated it from the chaff of man. Satan desires the throne of God. The boy prophet threw him off. Now I can make a holy covenant or oath just as Abraham. An oath to do what? To serve him all my days.

There is life in this. Yea, I have come to know God, and his son whom he has sent, through the ordinances of the house of the Lord given through the prophet Joseph Smith.

My experience is very different than yours, Mr. Sherwin. The devil has at times ranted at me, but that feeling came in opposition to the nearness I was experiencing with God. When something hasn’t been of God, there has been a stupor, but not violence of feeling. When I went through the temple for the first time I kept asking my earthly father, for he was beside me as my escort, “When have I done this before? It is all as familiar to me as the walk back to home I have not been to in a long time.” Every gesture and word was known to me, as if coming back to my memory, as I passed through those things for the first time.

I do not leave that testimony with you in my own name, but in the name of the Lord Jesus, for it is true. Whatever invites and entices to believe in Christ is good and of God. Do not judge that which is true and of God to be false and of the devil.

From here on out, Mr. Sherwin, my communication with you will be yea yea or nay nay, for my testimony has been set.
yea nay yea___yea yea___nay yea yea___yea yea___nay yea nay yea___yea yea nay___yea nay yea yea___nay nay nay___yea yea nay___yea yea yea
Has a babbling idiot come among us... ?
You have no idea what that is do you? Not that I'd expect anyone to pick up on it since it is hidden under a couple of layers. But to answer your question this place is dotted with babblers As for me I think that I am going to make a dash for the door. It's ridiculous, just ridiculous!
Michael,

Most people will see it as arrogance, especially since they've already judged you as being possessed by evil spirits. They won't think that your Morse Code for "ridiculous" will be clever, unfortunately.

It is kinda of clever, though. :)

Valo

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 23rd, 2019, 9:33 am
by jmack
Durzan wrote: September 21st, 2019, 4:38 pm I was going to do this earlier, but something stayed my hand then. Instead, I asked those on this board to pray for you. Now, those prayers shall come to fruition, and my hand shall not be stayed.

"In the name of the Almighty Father; in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ; and in the name of the Holy Ghost: I hereby say unto you, Michael Sherwin... Be thou cleansed!

When thou dost read these words let all unclean spirits that dwell within thee quake and tremble, for I rebuke them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; and command them to depart from thee, and henceforth never return unto thine mind."

"AMEN."
I believe your efforts sincere so I understand you want to help him, but as a moderator, you should use the powers granted you which are appropriate to deal with members when required. Valo called it right, iyam, Cheetos never crossed that far over the line.

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 23rd, 2019, 12:50 pm
by Kingdom of ZION
If I were to take any of these accusations and absurd claims on, I would say that the Messiah would exclaim, a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand! He does not do such. As for G_d sending Strong Delusions, He allows such to come and try a people who have rejected the true light freely offered. However G_d is NOT the author of such Delusions. They who have rejected the light, their minds are darkened and they except lessor principles and make them into commandments to fill the void of the lost of revelation and the spirit, which then allows them to think they are pleasing G_d, and that is the greatest Delusion!

A few examples of this is the belief that they are commanded to live or keep the Law of the Land. The legalizing of Abortion and Gays are some of the most clear recent examples of why they should not think G_d has commanded them to live or keep the Law of the Land. However, it started with the abolition on Plural Celestial Marriage, and the war against the Saints for living Consecration. Another past principle and precept that the Saints decided to convert into a commandment to give them busy work to ground their faith is the Word of Wisdom. This principle helps them feel more worthy and what spirit is left, that portion of the spirit that is available to all people, but it does not make them more worthy or righteous in G_d's eyes.

Father wants us to love one another as He has commanded, and show forth this love. He wants us to live His Gospel, not the principles we pick and choose to live, discarding the heart of the High Law, the Celestial Law... those Commandments that would allow us to come up unto Mount Zion and build the City of the King, giving place for Him to return unto us. Without such obedience, we shall be cast off and He will choose another people in our stead. That is the witness and testimony of the Book of Mormon. If the Elders can never be Endowed with power from on High, they will never be able to redeem themselves nor their loved ones, or to be sealed up with them and their posterity!

I am sorry if this offends... but the real truth needs to be said and proclaimed!

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 23rd, 2019, 1:25 pm
by Valo
Michael Sherwin wrote: September 20th, 2019, 8:10 pm Then there is this quote of Albert Pike in his book Morals and Dogma.

"That which we must say to the crowd is, we worship a god, but it is the god one adores without superstition. To you sovereign grand inspector general, we say this and you may repeat it to the brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees - the Masonic religion should be by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferian doctrine. If Lucifer were not god, would Adonay (the God of the Christians) whose deeds prove cruelty, perfidy and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and His priests, calumniate Him? Yes, Lucifer is god, and unfortunately Adonay is also God, for the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods. Darkness being necessary for light to serve as its foil, as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive. Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is heresy, and the true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay, but Lucifer, god of light and god of good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the god of darkness and evil." - Albert Pike

Albert Pike was a high level Mason in this country. If you believe that all seven of the nine Masons that received the first endowment were oblivious to Lucifer being the God of the Masons then you are naive. And too that I can add that I personally know a widow whose husband when he made it to the 32nd degree came home from the ceremony in absolute fright and never went back. For years he refused to tell her why. Then one day he told her that "they worship Lucifer".
Michael,

Like many before you it appears that you have been duped. That quote you provide by Albert Pike has been used quite often out of context and dishonestly. Not saying that is what you are doing, but, I am saying you are not accurately representing what is being said in that book and what is being said by Albert Pike. Please, allow me to point out the error and show the proper context (you have to look at the whole book, read the preceding chapters, paragraphs, and the words after that quote in order to get the true meaning and true understanding.

That quote, alone, is like me talking about the evils of Nazism and then stating that "Adolf Hitler believe that the blond haired, blue eye German is the superior race. The German and the Germanic peoples are the master the race. They are superior in intellect, in strength, in beauty, in pretty much every conceivable way. This was the twisted and false ideology that Hitler taught."

Now, imagine if you quoted me like this:
Valo wrote:...the blond haired, blue eye German is the superior race. The German and the Germanic peoples are the master the race. They are superior in intellect, in strength, in beauty, in pretty much every conceivable way.
Wow! Look at what Valo just said. You did quote me and I did say those words, but, that wasn't my message, now was it?

This is what is going on with the Albert Pike quote here.
Albert Pike wrote:
p. 316

It is the ambition of a true and genuine Mason. Knowing the slow processes by which the Deity brings about great results, he does not expect to reap as well as sow, in a single lifetime. It is the inflexible fate and noblest destiny, with rare exceptions, of the great and good, to work, and let others reap the harvest of their labors. He who does good, only to be repaid in kind, or in thanks and gratitude, or in reputation and the world's praise, is like him who loans his money, that he may, after certain months, receive it back with interest. To be repaid for eminent services with slander, obloquy, or ridicule, or at best with stupid indifference or cold ingratitude, as it is common, so it is no misfortune, except to those who lack the wit to see or sense to appreciate the service, or the nobility of soul to thank and reward with eulogy, the benefactor of his kind. His influences live, and the great Future will obey; whether it recognize or disown the lawgiver. .

Miltiades was fortunate that he was exiled; and Aristides that he was ostracized, because men wearied of hearing him called "The Just." Not the Redeemer was unfortunate; but those only who repaid Him for the inestimable gift He offered them, and for a life passed in toiling for their good, by nailing Him upon the cross, as though He had been a slave or malefactor. The persecutor dies and rots, and Posterity utters his name with execration: but his victim's memory he has unintentionally made glorious and immortal.

If not for slander and persecution, the Mason who would benefit

p. 317

his race must look for apathy and cold indifference in those whose good he seeks, in those who ought to seek the good of others. Except when the sluggish depths of the Human Mind are broken up and tossed as with a storm, when at the appointed time a great Reformer comes, and a new Faith springs up and grows with supernatural energy, the progress of Truth is slower than the growth of oaks; and he who plants need not expect to gather. The Redeemer, at His death, had twelve disciples, and one betrayed and one deserted and denied Him. It is enough for us to know that the fruit will come in its due season. When, or who shall gather it, it does not in the least concern us to know. It is our business to plant the seed. It is God's right to give the fruit to whom He pleases; and if not to us, then is our action by so much the more noble.

To sow, that others may reap; to work and plant for those who are to occupy the earth when we are dead; to project our influences far into the future, and live beyond our time; to rule as the Kings of Thought, over men who are yet unborn; to bless with the glorious gifts of Truth and Light and Liberty those who will neither know the name of the giver, nor care in what grave his unregarded ashes repose, is the true office of a Mason and the proudest destiny of a man....

p. 320

...On all the broad lakes and oceans the Great Sun looks earnestly and lovingly, and the invisible vapors rise ever up to meet him. No eye but God's beholds them as they rise. There, in the upper atmosphere, they are condensed to mist, and gather into clouds, and float and swim around in the ambient air. They sail with its currents, and hover over the ocean, and roll in huge masses round the stony shoulders of great mountains. Condensed still more by change of temperature, they drop upon the thirsty earth in gentle showers, or pour upon it in heavy rains, or storm against its bosom at the angry Equinoctial. The shower, the rain, and the storm pass away, the clouds vanish, and the bright stars again shine clearly upon the glad earth. The rain-drops sink into the ground, and gather in subterranean reservoirs, and run in subterranean channels, and bubble up in springs and fountains; and from the mountain-sides and heads of valleys the silver threads of water begin their long journey to the ocean. Uniting, they widen into brooks and rivulets, then into streams and rivers; and, at last, a Nile, a Ganges, a Danube, an Amazon, or a Mississippi rolls between its banks, mighty, majestic, and resistless, creating vast alluvial valleys to be the granaries of the world, ploughed by the thousand keels of commerce and serving as great highways, and as the impassable boundaries of rival nations; ever returning to the ocean the drops that rose from it in vapor, and descended in rain and snow and hail upon the level plains and lofty mountains;

p. 321

The Apocalypse, that sublime Kabalistic and prophetic Summary of all the occult figures, divides its images into three Septenaries, after each of which there is silence in Heaven. There are Seven Seals to be opened, that is to say, Seven mysteries to know, and Seven difficulties to overcome, Seven trumpets to sound, and Seven cups to empty.

The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.

The Apocalypse, indeed, is a book as obscure as the Sohar.
You need to read the whole book in context in order to understand what Albert Pike is saying. He is saying the opposite of what it appears to be saying, when read in context.

Instead of saying that Lucifer is someone good and someone that the mason "worships", Pike is saying the exact opposite. Notice this sentence here:
Albert Pike wrote:]The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer.
Apotheosis means "climax" or "culmination".

So, in Masonry, those who receive the 19th degree "aspire to God alone, and despise all the pomps and works of Lucifer".

See, this whole section is talking about self-less service. If you read the words before and the words after, Pike is using allegory to show how God, through small, imperceptible means, does great things and that a Mason should work in the same way. They shouldn't do their good works to be seen of the world, to receive praise, etc. They should "sow seeds" and be happy to allow another person to reap the benefits, to harvest.

The idea is for a Mason to reject pride and trying to get gain and praise of the world, like Lucifer represents, but they are to quietly, and humbly do their work for the glory of the Creator and for the progression of humankind.
Albert Pike wrote:To sow, that others may reap; to work and plant for those who are to occupy the earth when we are dead; to project our influences far into the future, and live beyond our time; to rule as the Kings of Thought, over men who are yet unborn; to bless with the glorious gifts of Truth and Light and Liberty those who will neither know the name of the giver, nor care in what grave his unregarded ashes repose, is the true office of a Mason and the proudest destiny of a man.
Valo

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 23rd, 2019, 1:44 pm
by Michael Sherwin
jmack wrote: September 23rd, 2019, 9:33 am
Durzan wrote: September 21st, 2019, 4:38 pm I was going to do this earlier, but something stayed my hand then. Instead, I asked those on this board to pray for you. Now, those prayers shall come to fruition, and my hand shall not be stayed.

"In the name of the Almighty Father; in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ; and in the name of the Holy Ghost: I hereby say unto you, Michael Sherwin... Be thou cleansed!

When thou dost read these words let all unclean spirits that dwell within thee quake and tremble, for I rebuke them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; and command them to depart from thee, and henceforth never return unto thine mind."

"AMEN."
I believe your efforts sincere so I understand you want to help him, but as a moderator, you should use the powers granted you which are appropriate to deal with members when required. Valo called it right, iyam, Cheetos never crossed that far over the line.
I'm not too worried about it. It has been good training to be here and receive treatment such as this. It has helped me to deliver without allowing myself to feel offense. I can quack and let the water roll off my back.

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 23rd, 2019, 1:57 pm
by Valo
Michael Sherwin wrote: September 20th, 2019, 8:10 pm Then there is this quote of Albert Pike in his book Morals and Dogma.

"That which we must say to the crowd is, we worship a god, but it is the god one adores without superstition. To you sovereign grand inspector general, we say this and you may repeat it to the brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees - the Masonic religion should be by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferian doctrine. If Lucifer were not god, would Adonay (the God of the Christians) whose deeds prove cruelty, perfidy and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and His priests, calumniate Him? Yes, Lucifer is god, and unfortunately Adonay is also God, for the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods. Darkness being necessary for light to serve as its foil, as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive. Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is heresy, and the true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay, but Lucifer, god of light and god of good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the god of darkness and evil." - Albert Pike
BTW, this quote is not found in "Morals and Dogma", it is a statement cited by Ed Decker and attributed to A.C. De La Rive in Ed Decker's "The Question of Freemansonry". Ed Decker is a well known anti-Mormon and anti-Mason who has been demonstrated to use questionable sources, research, etc. Further, this specific quote has been debunked. Please see the "Taxil Hoax".

Valo

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 23rd, 2019, 2:21 pm
by Michael Sherwin
Valo,

In all humility I must contest what you are saying. Albert Pike believed the deity, Jesus, that was nailed to the cross was the light bearer. It is just that the light bearer to him is Lucifer. So Jesus being the bright and morning star was Lucifer.

"The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer."

Those of the 19th degree learn, "the ideal example" of the Christian's that aspire to God alone that also despises all the pomps of Lucifer. So the above quote is a criticism of Christian belief.

"Doubt it not!" Is a further criticism of the Christians. Look again.

" LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls?"

Is Lucifer, the one that brings the light, also the one that, " with its splendors intolerable (to Christians) blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls?". Albert Pike is asking a question. No, would be his answer; Lucifer is not the one that , "blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls".
Apotheosis means "climax" or "culmination".
noun, plural a·poth·e·o·ses [uh-poth-ee-oh-seez, ap-uh-thee-uh-seez] .
the elevation or exaltation of a person to the rank of a god.
the ideal example; epitome; quintessence:

sublime
adjective
elevated or lofty in thought, language, etc.:
So, in Masonry, those who receive the 19th degree "aspire to God alone, and despise all the pomps and works of Lucifer".
I'm sorry Valo but you understood it wrong. They learn about the Christians of that lofty faith that, "aspire to God alone, and despise all the pomps and works of Lucifer".

:(

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 23rd, 2019, 3:01 pm
by Valo
Michael Sherwin wrote: September 23rd, 2019, 2:21 pm Valo,

In all humility I must contest what you are saying. Albert Pike believed the deity, Jesus, that was nailed to the cross was the light bearer. It is just that the light bearer to him is Lucifer. So Jesus being the bright and morning star was Lucifer.

"The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer."

Those of the 19th degree learn, "the ideal example" of the Christian's that aspire to God alone that also despises all the pomps of Lucifer. So the above quote is a criticism of Christian belief.

"Doubt it not!" Is a further criticism of the Christians. Look again.

" LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls?"

Is Lucifer, the one that brings the light, also the one that, " with its splendors intolerable (to Christians) blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls?". Albert Pike is asking a question. No, would be his answer; Lucifer is not the one that , "blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls".
Apotheosis means "climax" or "culmination".
noun, plural a·poth·e·o·ses [uh-poth-ee-oh-seez, ap-uh-thee-uh-seez] .
the elevation or exaltation of a person to the rank of a god.
the ideal example; epitome; quintessence:

sublime
adjective
elevated or lofty in thought, language, etc.:
So, in Masonry, those who receive the 19th degree "aspire to God alone, and despise all the pomps and works of Lucifer".
I'm sorry Valo but you understood it wrong. They learn about the Christians of that lofty faith that, "aspire to God alone, and despise all the pomps and works of Lucifer".

:(
I'm just gonna deal with on portion so as to keep this from being too convoluted.

First, do you understand that your original quote attributed to "Albert Pike" isn't in the book "Morals and Dogma" but is cited in Ed Decker's anti-Mason book? Do you further understand that the quote you provided in your OP has been debunked?

OK, so here is the other quote in question, again, unmolested:

"The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!"

You added in brackets (to Christians). Why and how do you justify that addition? Second, why do you not quote the full quote without interruption.

What does that quote there say without you adding anything or taking anything away?

Valo

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 23rd, 2019, 3:11 pm
by Valo
Michael Sherwin wrote: September 23rd, 2019, 2:21 pm Valo,

In all humility I must contest what you are saying. Albert Pike believed the deity, Jesus, that was nailed to the cross was the light bearer. It is just that the light bearer to him is Lucifer. So Jesus being the bright and morning star was Lucifer.

"The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer."

Those of the 19th degree learn, "the ideal example" of the Christian's that aspire to God alone that also despises all the pomps of Lucifer. So the above quote is a criticism of Christian belief.

"Doubt it not!" Is a further criticism of the Christians. Look again.

" LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls?"

Is Lucifer, the one that brings the light, also the one that, " with its splendors intolerable (to Christians) blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls?". Albert Pike is asking a question. No, would be his answer; Lucifer is not the one that , "blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls".
Apotheosis means "climax" or "culmination".
noun, plural a·poth·e·o·ses [uh-poth-ee-oh-seez, ap-uh-thee-uh-seez] .
the elevation or exaltation of a person to the rank of a god.
the ideal example; epitome; quintessence:

sublime
adjective
elevated or lofty in thought, language, etc.:
So, in Masonry, those who receive the 19th degree "aspire to God alone, and despise all the pomps and works of Lucifer".
I'm sorry Valo but you understood it wrong. They learn about the Christians of that lofty faith that, "aspire to God alone, and despise all the pomps and works of Lucifer".

:(
I also provided context. I quoted several pages before and after this quote. Your particular interpretation of that quote makes no sense if we drop it in to the context of the book "Morals and Dogma".

Valo

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 24th, 2019, 11:04 pm
by Michael Sherwin
Valo wrote: September 23rd, 2019, 3:11 pm
Michael Sherwin wrote: September 23rd, 2019, 2:21 pm Valo,

In all humility I must contest what you are saying. Albert Pike believed the deity, Jesus, that was nailed to the cross was the light bearer. It is just that the light bearer to him is Lucifer. So Jesus being the bright and morning star was Lucifer.

"The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer."

Those of the 19th degree learn, "the ideal example" of the Christian's that aspire to God alone that also despises all the pomps of Lucifer. So the above quote is a criticism of Christian belief.

"Doubt it not!" Is a further criticism of the Christians. Look again.

" LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls?"

Is Lucifer, the one that brings the light, also the one that, " with its splendors intolerable (to Christians) blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls?". Albert Pike is asking a question. No, would be his answer; Lucifer is not the one that , "blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls".
Apotheosis means "climax" or "culmination".
noun, plural a·poth·e·o·ses [uh-poth-ee-oh-seez, ap-uh-thee-uh-seez] .
the elevation or exaltation of a person to the rank of a god.
the ideal example; epitome; quintessence:

sublime
adjective
elevated or lofty in thought, language, etc.:
So, in Masonry, those who receive the 19th degree "aspire to God alone, and despise all the pomps and works of Lucifer".
I'm sorry Valo but you understood it wrong. They learn about the Christians of that lofty faith that, "aspire to God alone, and despise all the pomps and works of Lucifer".

:(
I also provided context. I quoted several pages before and after this quote. Your particular interpretation of that quote makes no sense if we drop it in to the context of the book "Morals and Dogma".

Valo
Years ago I had a PDF copy of Morals and Dogma. In that copy the quote was in there on the page it was said to be on. The last day or so I have been downloading multiple copies and that quote was not in any of them. So either the various copies have been cleaned up or the first one back then that I downloaded was tampered with. I guess Occam's Razor would indicate that I had somehow managed to download a fraudulent copy on my first try. I'll have to think about it.

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 25th, 2019, 6:02 pm
by Thinker
Michael Sherwin wrote: September 20th, 2019, 8:10 pm
gangbusters wrote: September 20th, 2019, 6:54 pm Sorry, Mike. You have ZERO credibility with me, not that I expect you to lose any sleep over it. Show me your research that proves the church was established by Lucifer. I’ll wait.
The Church of 1830 was not Luciferian. It was when the temple services were added that it became Luciferian. The temple is patterned after Masonry. Seven of the first nine to receive their endowments were Masons. If you think that is not important then you are deceiving yourself. If you think that Brigham Young stating that the Mormons having the true Masonry somehow absolves the issue then you are deceiving yourself. If you think that all the Masonry symbolism at the temples is just decoration then you do not understand the significance. Then there is this quote of Albert Pike in his book Morals and Dogma.

"That which we must say to the crowd is, we worship a god, but it is the god one adores without superstition. To you sovereign grand inspector general, we say this and you may repeat it to the brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees - the Masonic religion should be by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferian doctrine. If Lucifer were not god, would Adonay (the God of the Christians) whose deeds prove cruelty, perfidy and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and His priests, calumniate Him? Yes, Lucifer is god, and unfortunately Adonay is also God, for the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods. Darkness being necessary for light to serve as its foil, as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive. Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is heresy, and the true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay, but Lucifer, god of light and god of good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the god of darkness and evil." - Albert Pike

Albert Pike was a high level Mason in this country. If you believe that all seven of the nine Masons that received the first endowment were oblivious to Lucifer being the God of the Masons then you are naive. And too that I can add that I personally know a widow whose husband when he made it to the 32nd degree came home from the ceremony in absolute fright and never went back. For years he refused to tell her why. Then one day he told her that "they worship Lucifer".

Then there is the in your face truth that should be obvious. Satan's plan was for man to not have agency. That is just about the first thing that an investigator is taught. What an investigator is not taught that the very last step is to go to the temple and surrender that agency by oath to the leader of the Church. Everything you are and everything you have is put under the authority of the Church. One can still exercise their agency against the wishes of the Church but it means breaking their oath.

Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

Matthew 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Matthew 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Matthew 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.


Any time we swear an oath we are compromising our agency. That is antichrist. That is the way of Lucifer. In the world to come we are not bound by oath to keep the commandments of God. It is just that simple. We always have the agency to keep God's commandments. Going to the temple and swearing oaths is not God's way. It is the way of Lucifer.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Revelation 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse (beast): and his name that sat on him was Death (Satan), and Hell (false prophet) followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts (kingdoms) of the earth.


Horses are beast. Antichrist spirit kingdoms are beast. The four horses of Revelation 6 are beast kingdoms. A kingdom is a kingdom because it has a king. It is not really four different kingdoms. They are all the same kingdom. They are only said to be four kingdoms because there will be four kings. The kingdom itself is the kingdom of Israel or more specifically the kingdom of Ephraim and Manasseh because the name of Israel was named upon them when Jacob blessed them. Judah and the other tribes of Israel did not receive the blessing (curse) of the kingdom. The Antichrist comes from the lineage of Ephraim (but not in the forward direction, hint). The false prophet comes from the lineage of Ephraim. Jesus takes the kingdom from the Antichrist at the battle of Armageddon. Jesus then sets up his eternal kingdom. Put 2 and 2 together!
That is significantly why I felt a horrible feeling after going through the Freemasonry/endowment session. It felt so wrong! But everyone was gaslighting me and telling me it was just me and I’ll come to love it. I did have beautiful spiritual experiences in sealing ordinance - but the Freemasonry part always felt odd. It is not of God - no matter how it’s bent. And also it does reflect Satanic ways in dishonoring free agency. Now, I don’t go to lds temples basically because I follow Christ in giving tithes to those in need - not to the lds corporation. Also, I know, as Christ did, that “the kingdom God cometh not with observation.” Christ didn’t go to the temples - except maybe to whip people out of it who were using it to make money (the lds church also uses temples to make money).

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 25th, 2019, 6:17 pm
by Thinker
Valo wrote: September 23rd, 2019, 1:57 pm ...Ed Decker is a well known anti-Mormon and anti-Mason...
Valo, I have appreciated many of your posts, but this one is lacking logic. It engages in a type of ad hominem attack - not of the poster but of the source quoted. It’s ignoring the message while trying to shoot the messenger.

Ought we then discard all pro-Mormon and pro-Mason statements? Appeal to authority is the foundation of this church, unfortunately. Take that out - and what do you have left?

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 25th, 2019, 8:23 pm
by Valo
Thinker wrote: September 25th, 2019, 6:17 pm
Valo wrote: September 23rd, 2019, 1:57 pm ...Ed Decker is a well known anti-Mormon and anti-Mason...
Valo, I have appreciated many of your posts, but this one is lacking logic. It engages in a type of ad hominem attack - not of the poster but of the source quoted. It’s ignoring the message while trying to shoot the messenger.

Ought we then discard all pro-Mormon and pro-Mason statements? Appeal to authority is the foundation of this church, unfortunately. Take that out - and what do you have left?
You are free to trust Ed Decker's work if you wish. I wouldn't because his research, tactics, methods, and works are demonstrably false and unethical.

He works are not trusted by Mormon or non-Mormon scholars because its been proven eggretiously false.

These are very good reasons to be highly sceptical of Ed Decker's claims and research.

Furthermore, Thinker, the specific quote in question in this thread, which Ed Decker attributes to Albert Pike in his anti-Mason book (a demonstrated fact), is proven to be false. Albert Pike never said it and it never existed in Morals and Dogma.

So, lets suppose that I engaged in some ad hominem (and I did not), regardless, this still doesn't change the fact that the quote is falsely attributed to Albert Pike.

The research and the works of Ed Decker should be verified and confirmed by independent, third party, peer reviewed research before it is to be believed or accepted. I would never trust his research and works.

Valo

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 25th, 2019, 8:54 pm
by Juliet
I like to think that the grand delusion is that people will think they are righteous when actually they are not. Kind of like Jalvert from Les Meserables.

There was one person who trodden the winepress and He did it alone and He said Glory be to the Father.

The law and all the prophets is built on the foundation of loving others the way God loves you. So anyone who can judge someone as sinful when God is giving you air to breath is a hypocrite.

Anyone who takes glory to himself is going to be humbled.

But someone who can teach the truth, let the truth be glorified and the teacher be humble.

As far as the temple is concerned, why is the entire old testament about the temple being built, the temple being defiled, the temple being cleansed, over and over and over again. I have to conclude that temples get defiled and need regular cleansing and sanctification. The theme recurs often enough. If the spirit tells you something in the temple isn't right then fix it through the Holy Spirit and let's see what God does. If the people who go there are doing so in the name of Jesus Christ then let's see if He honors those testimonies and cleanses the temple whether through prophets or by Himself.

In the new Testament Jesus personally took it upon Himself to cleanse the temple. So why wouldn't He do it again if need be? Let's pray that the whole world will be cleansed from works of darkness.

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 26th, 2019, 9:52 am
by Thinker
Valo wrote: September 25th, 2019, 8:23 pmYou are free to trust Ed Decker's work if you wish. I wouldn't because his research, tactics, methods, and works are demonstrably false and unethical.

He works are not trusted by Mormon or non-Mormon scholars because its been proven eggretiously false.

These are very good reasons to be highly sceptical of Ed Decker's claims and research.
Before this thread I hadn’t heard of Ed Decker, and really that’s not the point. If you have a problem with something or someone, please state the reasons. You say there are good reasons to be skeptical of his work, but didn’t give any - except your own opinion. What, specifically are these reasons?

The main question or concern is the statement by Pike about Freemasonry and Lucifer. It seems (though I could be mistaken) that proving the statement true or false is a matter of opinion - unless they were there every second of Pike’s life to know all he said or didn’t say. This is the case for all quotes - all writings - generally it is believed. Still, it’s wise to consider subjectivity in recollections and how his-story is told by those left with the mic. ;)

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 26th, 2019, 9:55 am
by Valo
Thinker wrote: September 26th, 2019, 9:52 am
Valo wrote: September 25th, 2019, 8:23 pmYou are free to trust Ed Decker's work if you wish. I wouldn't because his research, tactics, methods, and works are demonstrably false and unethical.

He works are not trusted by Mormon or non-Mormon scholars because its been proven eggretiously false.

These are very good reasons to be highly sceptical of Ed Decker's claims and research.
Before this thread I hadn’t heard of Ed Decker, and really that’s not the point. If you have a problem with something or someone, please state the reasons. You say there are good reasons to be skeptical of his work, but didn’t give any - except your own opinion. What, specifically are these reasons?
google.com: ed decker

Valo

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 26th, 2019, 10:36 am
by Thinker
Valo wrote: September 26th, 2019, 9:55 amgoogle.com: ed Decker
Not the reply I was hoping for, but ok, let’s see some things Ed said...
  • “The founding Prophet of the Mormon Church also declared that the moon was inhabited by people about six feet tall who dressed like Quakers and lived to be a thousand years old.' Smith's successor, Brigham Young, came forth with an even more amazing revelation-that the sun is also inhabited.”
Would you say those mistaken ideas would undermine their (JS & BY) credibility? I mean, knowing they made such mistakes, would you dismiss EVERYTHING they said or did? I don’t. But I also don’t consider them infallible gods who could never lead anyone astray.
https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Ques ... Quakers%3F

  • “Jesus not only declared that God is not a man, but spirit, but He later confirmed that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. To Peter, Jesus clearly stated that His Father does not have flesh and blood.
    Shockingly, the LDS Church claims exactly the opposite: ‘The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in-us’ (Doctrine and Covenants 130:23).” - The God Makers: A Shocking Expose of What the Mormon Church Really Believes
  • “Thus the Mormon dilemma: Outside the Church is no salvation,' yet inside the Church there is no hope either, for no one who is honest with himself could ever pretend to meet its impossible standards of personal righteousness.”- The Godmakers
  • “As we shall see, both the Melchizedek Priesthood and the alleged "First Vision" (which, in spite of its nine contradictory versions, is the foundation of Mormonism) show a progression in Prophet Smith's ideas that betrays a definite and growing influence from Masonry.”- The Godmakers
  • “The Book of Mormon Condemns LDS Temple Ritual

    Further, their scripture clearly condemns secret signs and combinations, those very things done in the LDS temple ritual. One very clear sign that the ‘brethren’ knew they were out of order with their scripture was their early condemnation of Freemasonry, the very secret society from which these actual rituals were taken.

    The LDS Church removed most of the Masonic ‘blood oaths’ involved when others and we revealed them publicly. However, to still use the core of the secret signs and combinations, ritual acts that bring them into clear condemnation, not only from the Bible, but also from the Book of Mormon itself.

    21 And there are many churches built up which cause envyings, and strifes, and malice. 22 And there are also secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil, for he is the founder of all these things; yea, the founder of murder, and works of darkness; yea, and he leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord, until he bindeth them with his strong cords forever. 23 For behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you that the Lord God worketh not in darkness. 2ndNephi 26 (also see Ether 8:18 and Mormon 8: 27)
    https://lifeafter.org/apostate-mormon-church-ed-decker/
In reading some of what Ed said, I haven’t agreed with some of his interpretations or value-conclusions but I also haven’t come across any belief of Mormonism or the establishment thereof, to be untrue. There are some unorthodox (for Christianity) beliefs in Kolob, many gods, changes to the first vision, etc. I happen to believe Joseph Smith was inspired to teach things like we can become as god (I see that not as heresy but as Christ taught), but he also became corrupt. Ed does point out some important discrepancies between Mormonism and Christ’s teachings, but sometimes he’s too harsh in focusing on the letter of the law. The BofM is likely fiction (lacking historical truth), but still contains some existential truth, which is its purpose anyway.

Bottom line: I seek for and embrace truth wherever it’s found, even if it’s from imperfect people (which we all are). Take the best, leave the rest.

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 26th, 2019, 12:46 pm
by Valo
Thinker wrote: September 26th, 2019, 10:36 am
Valo wrote: September 26th, 2019, 9:55 amgoogle.com: ed Decker
Not the reply I was hoping for, but ok, let’s see some things Ed said...
  • “The founding Prophet of the Mormon Church also declared that the moon was inhabited by people about six feet tall who dressed like Quakers and lived to be a thousand years old.' Smith's successor, Brigham Young, came forth with an even more amazing revelation-that the sun is also inhabited.”
Would you say those mistaken ideas would undermine their (JS & BY) credibility? I mean, knowing they made such mistakes, would you dismiss EVERYTHING they said or did? I don’t. But I also don’t consider them infallible gods who could never lead anyone astray.
https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Ques ... Quakers%3F

  • “Jesus not only declared that God is not a man, but spirit, but He later confirmed that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. To Peter, Jesus clearly stated that His Father does not have flesh and blood.
    Shockingly, the LDS Church claims exactly the opposite: ‘The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in-us’ (Doctrine and Covenants 130:23).” - The God Makers: A Shocking Expose of What the Mormon Church Really Believes
  • “Thus the Mormon dilemma: Outside the Church is no salvation,' yet inside the Church there is no hope either, for no one who is honest with himself could ever pretend to meet its impossible standards of personal righteousness.”- The Godmakers
  • “As we shall see, both the Melchizedek Priesthood and the alleged "First Vision" (which, in spite of its nine contradictory versions, is the foundation of Mormonism) show a progression in Prophet Smith's ideas that betrays a definite and growing influence from Masonry.”- The Godmakers
  • “The Book of Mormon Condemns LDS Temple Ritual

    Further, their scripture clearly condemns secret signs and combinations, those very things done in the LDS temple ritual. One very clear sign that the ‘brethren’ knew they were out of order with their scripture was their early condemnation of Freemasonry, the very secret society from which these actual rituals were taken.

    The LDS Church removed most of the Masonic ‘blood oaths’ involved when others and we revealed them publicly. However, to still use the core of the secret signs and combinations, ritual acts that bring them into clear condemnation, not only from the Bible, but also from the Book of Mormon itself.

    21 And there are many churches built up which cause envyings, and strifes, and malice. 22 And there are also secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil, for he is the founder of all these things; yea, the founder of murder, and works of darkness; yea, and he leadeth them by the neck with a flaxen cord, until he bindeth them with his strong cords forever. 23 For behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you that the Lord God worketh not in darkness. 2ndNephi 26 (also see Ether 8:18 and Mormon 8: 27)
    https://lifeafter.org/apostate-mormon-church-ed-decker/
In reading some of what Ed said, I haven’t agreed with some of his interpretations or value-conclusions but I also haven’t come across any belief of Mormonism or the establishment thereof, to be untrue. There are some unorthodox (for Christianity) beliefs in Kolob, many gods, changes to the first vision, etc. I happen to believe Joseph Smith was inspired to teach things like we can become as god (I see that not as heresy but as Christ taught), but he also became corrupt. Ed does point out some important discrepancies between Mormonism and Christ’s teachings, but sometimes he’s too harsh in focusing on the letter of the law. The BofM is likely fiction (lacking historical truth), but still contains some existential truth, which is its purpose anyway.

Bottom line: I seek for and embrace truth wherever it’s found, even if it’s from imperfect people (which we all are). Take the best, leave the rest.
Wonderful. I feel the same way about seeking truth and all of that. However, when it comes to learning about something that you don't know about, like a different religion, etc. you want to use sources that employ ethical and moral standards, sources that are peer reviewed, sources that are unbiased, etc. Ed Decker is not one of those sources.

I would never use Ed Decker as a source if I were to be writing a research paper for a university or for a corporation, etc. where accurate, honest, and verifiable information is critical or people get hurt, or institutions get hurt, etc. The reason why is because he doesn't use honest scholarly standards in his works. I can't trust his works. If I read a statement in his books that reflects negatively on some religion or on some group, then I am not going to accept his words at face value because it has been demonstrated that Ed Decker uses sources that can't be verified, he has made up "facts", or he twists meaning, etc. These are things that I have verified and that other independent scholars have verified by studying Ed Decker's books, etc. Even the Tanners, who are well known for writing works critical of the LDS Church, believe and accept that Ed Decker's works are dishonest and never truly depict or reflect the religion that Ed happens to be trying to criticize.

I respect your principled position but don't be naive either. Before you accept something that Ed has written, especially when it is critical or reflects negatively on the subject matter of his books, it is wise in this particular case to take it with a huge grain of salt. Maybe its true, but, based on his previous works and his methods, I wouldn't put too much stock in to it. I would not waste my time with Ed Decker if I wanted to learn about a religion. I would use other sources because if I used Ed, I'd have to use other sources anyways to validate his assertions, etc. and that seems silly to me.

Valo

Re: The Greatest Mystery of Salvation Revealed

Posted: September 26th, 2019, 12:57 pm
by John Tavner
Juliet wrote: September 25th, 2019, 8:54 pm I like to think that the grand delusion is that people will think they are righteous when actually they are not. Kind of like Jalvert from Les Meserables.

There was one person who trodden the winepress and He did it alone and He said Glory be to the Father.

The law and all the prophets is built on the foundation of loving others the way God loves you. So anyone who can judge someone as sinful when God is giving you air to breath is a hypocrite.

Anyone who takes glory to himself is going to be humbled.

But someone who can teach the truth, let the truth be glorified and the teacher be humble.

As far as the temple is concerned, why is the entire old testament about the temple being built, the temple being defiled, the temple being cleansed, over and over and over again. I have to conclude that temples get defiled and need regular cleansing and sanctification. The theme recurs often enough. If the spirit tells you something in the temple isn't right then fix it through the Holy Spirit and let's see what God does. If the people who go there are doing so in the name of Jesus Christ then let's see if He honors those testimonies and cleanses the temple whether through prophets or by Himself.

In the new Testament Jesus personally took it upon Himself to cleanse the temple. So why wouldn't He do it again if need be? Let's pray that the whole world will be cleansed from works of darkness.
The temple is a representation of who we are. When we are born again the Lord comes through with the HOly Ghost and clears our temple making us holy. If we become defiled, we must repent. Symbolism is beautiful in the Scriptures. When the people became corrupted and didn't repent their temple was defiled and they were destroyed.

As a side note, I feel like in a sense you were just quoting scripture :) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;

22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.