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Wow, just thought of San Francisco, Seattle and Portland.As I told my friend, this world is a mixed bag - it’s not all good nor all bad but focusing on the poop will make this world look poopy.
It used to be a nice city - then it went far left.
We once had a very nice kitchen. One of the kids spilled some honey on the floor and didn't tell anyone. The next day it was covered with ants. We cleaned up the honey and removed the ants. It was quickly a nice kitchen again.
Sad to hear. It has been a while since I’ve been there. Much of what you wrote seems to apply to areas of So Ca.Serragon wrote: ↑September 13th, 2019, 2:00 pmWe once had a very nice kitchen. One of the kids spilled some honey on the floor and didn't tell anyone. The next day it was covered with ants. We cleaned up the honey and removed the ants. It was quickly a nice kitchen again.
The government in Seattle continually pours honey on the floor and refuses to stop. The ants come and cause lots of damage. To those who don't use the kitchen it is a tolerable condition, but for those who have to use it it quickly becomes intolerable. No one really likes the ants, so they just move the honey to different portions of the kitchen to make it seem like something is being done.
The only logical step is to remove the honey and then remove the existing ants. no new ants will arrive if the honey is gone. Yet the pouring of the honey on the floor is the only trick they know, so the problem increases while the pourers blame the other residents in the house for not accepting the condition. Eventually they blame everyone and everything but the honey on the floor as the real problem.
Seattle has the potential to be a very nice city once again. But the only nice thing about it now because of the natural setting it resides in.
In the mid 80s, Seattle was split about even Repub and Dem. Today, It is 7 to 1 Dem to Repub votes. The interesting thing is that the republicans get the same number of votes today as they did in the 80s. The city was nice, friendly, and clean.. especially for an industrial port city. There were families, lots of schools with lots of kids, and communities that actually had something in common.
Today, the city has "neighborhoods" full of people with nothing in common except their position on social justice issues. Communities are created from the top down. There is nothing organic about the place. It is all a facade. As I walk the streets there, i feel as though i am in a hollywood set instead of the real world. It is the most conformist place I have ever been. There are thousands of posters on telephone poles all preaching the same gospel without a dissenting idea or opinion to be found. Yet the people there imagine themselves part to be a vibrant counter-culture standing up to the injustices and immorality of the world. Simply by BEING there.
gkearney wrote: ↑September 13th, 2019, 6:11 pm I've been thinking here about the original topic, the psychology of conspiracy theorists. I think the driving motivation to want to believe in such things, and they run a full range from the political and financial to to things like flat and hollow earth and weather manipulation, is a deep need to bring order to the world.
Much of the time the world appears to be a chaotic, dangerous and disturbing place. Storms strike and destroy property and kill the innocent, the vagaries of the markets seem unpredictable and can upend our lives, despots rule and even shopping centres closed. The world is a constant state of change much of it well beyond our, or anyone else's control.
But we humans like order, we want to understand why things are happening to us. This is why we study the sciences be it physical, biological, social, mathematical or financial, we seek to understand the forces which act upon us. Some people look to find this order in dark forces, forces beyond our control but still within the realm of the human experience. This gives them someone to blame, because blaming a financial crisis of the vagaries of little understood market dynamics is not very satisfying. Blaming it on the dark hand of powerful families bent on word domination is in some way satisfying. It give people someone to point to.
In this thread there is a post about closed, sometimes referred to as "dead" shopping malls and how such must be part of some dark plan to turn such into concentration camps. I think this post demonstrates what I am talking about. Retail has undergone in the past and continue to undergo massive change. At one time the big department stores were all downtown and that is where people went to shop, Then as people moved from the city centres to the suburbs after WWII the shopping centre and then the mall displaced those large in town department stores, Eventually those building were revamped for other uses. Then the trend became the "big box" stand alone stores, and now we are moving to a retail environment where delivery is the norm. All of this is as natural a process as another but we don't like to think like that, we seek order, we seek a explanation for why that mall or store sit empty. Something more satisfying to us than the simple fact that retail changed. So we construct in our minds that these places are bing emptied out for some other reason, something darker and sinister. Because that is order, that is understandable and the winds of retail change are not.
Of course there is also the tactic of referring to a conspiracy but never naming the conspirators. This is handy because the conspirators can be an ever shifting set of people or institutions, trade unions, fascists, communists, leftists the conspirators neatly fit into whoever one favourite boogyman might be. Once you name names however you're painting yourself into a corner and if it turns out you wrong then that's a problem. Far better to leave the Gadiantons unnamed and let everyone fill in the blanks for themselves.
So we seek order, we seek to understand forces outside of our control. If we can't understand it some will construct a framework to do so. Sometimes that framework is based on the sciences and sometimes it is based on emotions but it is a fundamental human need and we all will do it.
Don’t you think the scribes who maintained the Dead Sea scrolls would have divided them up as different authors? 38 wasted years, sounds like a midlife crisis.thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:35 pmHere is what FairMormon has to say about Duetero-Isaiah:larsenb wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:21 pmGive us some links. So Bokovy discovered that Isaiah didn't write the Book of Isaiah? Who did, then . . . and when?thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:12 pmNo, I believed it my whole life.Fiannan wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:08 pm
Not really unrelated. Some people think the name Nephi is from the Nephilim. He is described as tall, isn't he.
You know, Jews could say that our Bible has many books the Jews find holy. Why? Because the foundations of both faiths find them important. So is it so hard to believe that Nephi found a relatively contemporary prophet like Isaiah very important - so important as to pass these on to future generations? And is it so hard to believe that Lehi's family had more documents on them than their family histories?
The problem is Deutero-Isaiah did not exist at the time Lehi left Jerusalem. This has been confirmed by Bible Scholars, including our own David Bokovy who laughed when his contemporaries told him he'd lose his testimony of the BOM if he decided to pursue his PhD. He came to realize they were right unfortunately, and Duetero-Isaiah is one of the biggest smoking guns.
https://www.fairmormon.org/archive/publ ... -of-mormon
Its hard for me to accept apologetics that say things like "If you accept the Book of Mormon as true, then there is no Deutero-Isaiah problem." WOW! Glad we cleared that up!
So Lucifer had the right plan after all, according to your scenario (minus the supposed few who get sent to perdition, and minus him getting the glory). Interesting.justme wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 3:57 pmI think we understand each other and have the correct basic beliefs. I think the D and C makes it clear that those who use their agency to get thrust down to hell will still be redeemed eventually. That does not mean it will be short and easy, for some they will be buffeted fiercely for a long time and that should not be taken lightly. But the end result will be all good. I know my reading of 76 does not correspond with everybodies.EmmaLee wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:38 pmThat was someone's plan, for sure -justme wrote: ↑September 11th, 2019, 5:30 pmThanks EmmaLee. So let me clarify. Agency is all important and I believe is an axiom. The only way to become perdition is to use your agency to absolutely decline the Father when you have a full unveiled understanding of what you are doing and its consequences. I believe DC 76 makes that clear. My understanding and belief is that the Father has a plan that will reward us all beyond comprehension, my personal understanding of the plan is near universalism, that is eventually all, except for the few perdition, will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. That is what I mean by a weak plan. The idea that our Father's divine spiritual genetics creates a race where 33% of his children would choose perdition or one in which upwards of 90% fails to reach the reward he would have for them.
I do not view all important agency to be at odds with my view.
"I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it" - Lucifer/Satan
He proposed to do this by force, by destroying the agency of man.
Contrasted with -
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” - Jesus Christ
The Savior also gave us the parable of the Ten Virgins - only 1/2 of whom were permitted into the wedding. This is akin to the other scriptures speaking of 1/2 being 'taken' and 1/2 being 'left' -
"Then shall two be in a field: the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken and the other left." etc. etc.
I understand your beliefs, as you've stated them before. I believe differently. God would cease to be God if he forced anyone to heaven. From one of our hymns -
Know this, that ev’ry soul is free
To choose his life and what he’ll be;
For this eternal truth is giv’n:
That God will force no man to heav’n.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/mus ... g=eng&_r=1
I believe that, as the scriptures say, the same spirit we have when we are alive, goes with us when we die - “That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:34.). If someone does not want to (try to) live as our Heavenly Father lives in their mortal life, they are not going to magically want to live with or like him in the next - and God is not going to force them to. Again, he would cease to be God if he did so, or even attempted to do so. Agency is supreme - he will not cross that boundary. That is my belief. Mankind has agency - not all will want to live with or like God again (and I personally think that number is/will be very high, sadly) - and he will not force them to. I am forever grateful for Heavenly Father's plan, and that he affords us our agency at all cost.
People on this forum get annoyed at my heresies in many areas. They may be right. And I may have along difficult road in the hereafter to have my rebelliousness burned from me. But the fact that I am here means I somehow passed the first test. And it is fairly obvious that I am not in danger or rising high enough in this life to run the risk of becoming perdition. So a loving heavenly father and the atoning sacrifice of his son will eventually save me. I am sure it saddens them that I make as many bad choices as I do and will have to suffer as much as I will though.
Also, I don't see how the atonement is needed at all in your scenario of everyone being saved in the Celestial Kingdom. If we're all going to be buffeted, burned, etc. for our sins for however long in the afterlife, and then we'll eventually make it to the CK, what's the point of the atonement? This reminds me of what the Catholic's believe - that you can pay for your sins (whether by money or buffetings - "penance") and you'll make it to 'heaven'. The vast majority of people in prison (especially for violent and/or sex crimes) can be punished ("buffeted/burned") till the end of time, but if their hearts aren't changed, they will repeat their offence once they're out. We are all the same. Unless our hearts are changed (and that cannot be forced on us by God - he will not, he CANNOT force us, nor our hearts, to change), it doesn't matter how many eons of buffetings and burnings we go through, we will not want to be with God. Agency.EmmaLee wrote: ↑September 14th, 2019, 7:53 amSo Lucifer had the right plan after all, according to your scenario (minus the supposed few who get sent to perdition, and minus him getting the glory). Interesting.justme wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 3:57 pmI think we understand each other and have the correct basic beliefs. I think the D and C makes it clear that those who use their agency to get thrust down to hell will still be redeemed eventually. That does not mean it will be short and easy, for some they will be buffeted fiercely for a long time and that should not be taken lightly. But the end result will be all good. I know my reading of 76 does not correspond with everybodies.EmmaLee wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:38 pmThat was someone's plan, for sure -justme wrote: ↑September 11th, 2019, 5:30 pm
Thanks EmmaLee. So let me clarify. Agency is all important and I believe is an axiom. The only way to become perdition is to use your agency to absolutely decline the Father when you have a full unveiled understanding of what you are doing and its consequences. I believe DC 76 makes that clear. My understanding and belief is that the Father has a plan that will reward us all beyond comprehension, my personal understanding of the plan is near universalism, that is eventually all, except for the few perdition, will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. That is what I mean by a weak plan. The idea that our Father's divine spiritual genetics creates a race where 33% of his children would choose perdition or one in which upwards of 90% fails to reach the reward he would have for them.
I do not view all important agency to be at odds with my view.
"I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it" - Lucifer/Satan
He proposed to do this by force, by destroying the agency of man.
Contrasted with -
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” - Jesus Christ
The Savior also gave us the parable of the Ten Virgins - only 1/2 of whom were permitted into the wedding. This is akin to the other scriptures speaking of 1/2 being 'taken' and 1/2 being 'left' -
"Then shall two be in a field: the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken and the other left." etc. etc.
I understand your beliefs, as you've stated them before. I believe differently. God would cease to be God if he forced anyone to heaven. From one of our hymns -
Know this, that ev’ry soul is free
To choose his life and what he’ll be;
For this eternal truth is giv’n:
That God will force no man to heav’n.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/mus ... g=eng&_r=1
I believe that, as the scriptures say, the same spirit we have when we are alive, goes with us when we die - “That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:34.). If someone does not want to (try to) live as our Heavenly Father lives in their mortal life, they are not going to magically want to live with or like him in the next - and God is not going to force them to. Again, he would cease to be God if he did so, or even attempted to do so. Agency is supreme - he will not cross that boundary. That is my belief. Mankind has agency - not all will want to live with or like God again (and I personally think that number is/will be very high, sadly) - and he will not force them to. I am forever grateful for Heavenly Father's plan, and that he affords us our agency at all cost.
People on this forum get annoyed at my heresies in many areas. They may be right. And I may have along difficult road in the hereafter to have my rebelliousness burned from me. But the fact that I am here means I somehow passed the first test. And it is fairly obvious that I am not in danger or rising high enough in this life to run the risk of becoming perdition. So a loving heavenly father and the atoning sacrifice of his son will eventually save me. I am sure it saddens them that I make as many bad choices as I do and will have to suffer as much as I will though.
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt EmmaLee that you really aren't misunderstanding the key difference that badly. The issue with Lucifer plan is not the numbers but the method. If the method is the Father's plan then it isn't wrong that he is successful with the numbers.EmmaLee wrote: ↑September 14th, 2019, 7:53 amSo Lucifer had the right plan after all, according to your scenario (minus the supposed few who get sent to perdition, and minus him getting the glory). Interesting.justme wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 3:57 pmI think we understand each other and have the correct basic beliefs. I think the D and C makes it clear that those who use their agency to get thrust down to hell will still be redeemed eventually. That does not mean it will be short and easy, for some they will be buffeted fiercely for a long time and that should not be taken lightly. But the end result will be all good. I know my reading of 76 does not correspond with everybodies.EmmaLee wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:38 pmThat was someone's plan, for sure -justme wrote: ↑September 11th, 2019, 5:30 pm
Thanks EmmaLee. So let me clarify. Agency is all important and I believe is an axiom. The only way to become perdition is to use your agency to absolutely decline the Father when you have a full unveiled understanding of what you are doing and its consequences. I believe DC 76 makes that clear. My understanding and belief is that the Father has a plan that will reward us all beyond comprehension, my personal understanding of the plan is near universalism, that is eventually all, except for the few perdition, will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. That is what I mean by a weak plan. The idea that our Father's divine spiritual genetics creates a race where 33% of his children would choose perdition or one in which upwards of 90% fails to reach the reward he would have for them.
I do not view all important agency to be at odds with my view.
"I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it" - Lucifer/Satan
He proposed to do this by force, by destroying the agency of man.
Contrasted with -
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” - Jesus Christ
The Savior also gave us the parable of the Ten Virgins - only 1/2 of whom were permitted into the wedding. This is akin to the other scriptures speaking of 1/2 being 'taken' and 1/2 being 'left' -
"Then shall two be in a field: the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken and the other left." etc. etc.
I understand your beliefs, as you've stated them before. I believe differently. God would cease to be God if he forced anyone to heaven. From one of our hymns -
Know this, that ev’ry soul is free
To choose his life and what he’ll be;
For this eternal truth is giv’n:
That God will force no man to heav’n.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/mus ... g=eng&_r=1
I believe that, as the scriptures say, the same spirit we have when we are alive, goes with us when we die - “That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:34.). If someone does not want to (try to) live as our Heavenly Father lives in their mortal life, they are not going to magically want to live with or like him in the next - and God is not going to force them to. Again, he would cease to be God if he did so, or even attempted to do so. Agency is supreme - he will not cross that boundary. That is my belief. Mankind has agency - not all will want to live with or like God again (and I personally think that number is/will be very high, sadly) - and he will not force them to. I am forever grateful for Heavenly Father's plan, and that he affords us our agency at all cost.
People on this forum get annoyed at my heresies in many areas. They may be right. And I may have along difficult road in the hereafter to have my rebelliousness burned from me. But the fact that I am here means I somehow passed the first test. And it is fairly obvious that I am not in danger or rising high enough in this life to run the risk of becoming perdition. So a loving heavenly father and the atoning sacrifice of his son will eventually save me. I am sure it saddens them that I make as many bad choices as I do and will have to suffer as much as I will though.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, justme, that you really don't mean to be so insufferably condescending in your posts. There is only one way for everyone to make it back to God/the Celestial Kingdom - force. The God I believe in and worship does not force anyone to do anything. He does not force your heart to change. He does not force you to change your behavior/thoughts, etc. The "method" you propose is force (which goes right along with your political ideologies, so no surprise). I reject your god and his Satanic methods.justme wrote: ↑September 14th, 2019, 9:07 amI am giving you the benefit of the doubt EmmaLee that you really aren't misunderstanding the key difference that badly. The issue with Lucifer plan is not the numbers but the method. If the method is the Father's plan then it isn't wrong that he is successful with the numbers.EmmaLee wrote: ↑September 14th, 2019, 7:53 amSo Lucifer had the right plan after all, according to your scenario (minus the supposed few who get sent to perdition, and minus him getting the glory). Interesting.justme wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 3:57 pmI think we understand each other and have the correct basic beliefs. I think the D and C makes it clear that those who use their agency to get thrust down to hell will still be redeemed eventually. That does not mean it will be short and easy, for some they will be buffeted fiercely for a long time and that should not be taken lightly. But the end result will be all good. I know my reading of 76 does not correspond with everybodies.EmmaLee wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:38 pm
That was someone's plan, for sure -
"I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it" - Lucifer/Satan
He proposed to do this by force, by destroying the agency of man.
Contrasted with -
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” - Jesus Christ
The Savior also gave us the parable of the Ten Virgins - only 1/2 of whom were permitted into the wedding. This is akin to the other scriptures speaking of 1/2 being 'taken' and 1/2 being 'left' -
"Then shall two be in a field: the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken and the other left." etc. etc.
I understand your beliefs, as you've stated them before. I believe differently. God would cease to be God if he forced anyone to heaven. From one of our hymns -
Know this, that ev’ry soul is free
To choose his life and what he’ll be;
For this eternal truth is giv’n:
That God will force no man to heav’n.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/mus ... g=eng&_r=1
I believe that, as the scriptures say, the same spirit we have when we are alive, goes with us when we die - “That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:34.). If someone does not want to (try to) live as our Heavenly Father lives in their mortal life, they are not going to magically want to live with or like him in the next - and God is not going to force them to. Again, he would cease to be God if he did so, or even attempted to do so. Agency is supreme - he will not cross that boundary. That is my belief. Mankind has agency - not all will want to live with or like God again (and I personally think that number is/will be very high, sadly) - and he will not force them to. I am forever grateful for Heavenly Father's plan, and that he affords us our agency at all cost.
People on this forum get annoyed at my heresies in many areas. They may be right. And I may have along difficult road in the hereafter to have my rebelliousness burned from me. But the fact that I am here means I somehow passed the first test. And it is fairly obvious that I am not in danger or rising high enough in this life to run the risk of becoming perdition. So a loving heavenly father and the atoning sacrifice of his son will eventually save me. I am sure it saddens them that I make as many bad choices as I do and will have to suffer as much as I will though.
Have a great saturday.
The 76th section of the D&C should be clear as a bell to anyone. Most, (according to that section) will make it to a kingdom of glory, three main kingdoms accordingly. All described as being compared to the sun, the moon and the stars. And as one star differs from another.........EmmaLee wrote: ↑September 14th, 2019, 10:20 amI'll give you the benefit of the doubt, justme, that you really don't mean to be so insufferably condescending in your posts. There is only one way for everyone to make it back to God/the Celestial Kingdom - force. The God I believe in and worship does not force anyone to do anything. He does not force your heart to change. He does not force you to change your behavior/thoughts, etc. The "method" you propose is force (which goes right along with your political ideologies, so no surprise). I reject your god and his Satanic methods.justme wrote: ↑September 14th, 2019, 9:07 amI am giving you the benefit of the doubt EmmaLee that you really aren't misunderstanding the key difference that badly. The issue with Lucifer plan is not the numbers but the method. If the method is the Father's plan then it isn't wrong that he is successful with the numbers.EmmaLee wrote: ↑September 14th, 2019, 7:53 amSo Lucifer had the right plan after all, according to your scenario (minus the supposed few who get sent to perdition, and minus him getting the glory). Interesting.justme wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 3:57 pm
I think we understand each other and have the correct basic beliefs. I think the D and C makes it clear that those who use their agency to get thrust down to hell will still be redeemed eventually. That does not mean it will be short and easy, for some they will be buffeted fiercely for a long time and that should not be taken lightly. But the end result will be all good. I know my reading of 76 does not correspond with everybodies.
People on this forum get annoyed at my heresies in many areas. They may be right. And I may have along difficult road in the hereafter to have my rebelliousness burned from me. But the fact that I am here means I somehow passed the first test. And it is fairly obvious that I am not in danger or rising high enough in this life to run the risk of becoming perdition. So a loving heavenly father and the atoning sacrifice of his son will eventually save me. I am sure it saddens them that I make as many bad choices as I do and will have to suffer as much as I will though.
Have a great saturday.
Have a great Saturday.
It’s a fair assessment to consider the need to make sense of things - to find order in chaos - as to why conspiracy “theories” are considered true. However, you neglected to consider the empty malls etc., along with Fema camps not used during Katrina, and Scalia’s warning about the camps before he was found dead.gkearney wrote: ↑September 13th, 2019, 6:11 pm I've been thinking here about the original topic, the psychology of conspiracy theorists. I think the driving motivation to want to believe in such things, and they run a full range from the political and financial to to things like flat and hollow earth and weather manipulation, is a deep need to bring order to the world.
Much of the time the world appears to be a chaotic, dangerous and disturbing place. Storms strike and destroy property and kill the innocent, the vagaries of the markets seem unpredictable and can upend our lives, despots rule and even shopping centres closed. The world is a constant state of change much of it well beyond our, or anyone else's control.
But we humans like order, we want to understand why things are happening to us. This is why we study the sciences be it physical, biological, social, mathematical or financial, we seek to understand the forces which act upon us. Some people look to find this order in dark forces, forces beyond our control but still within the realm of the human experience. This gives them someone to blame, because blaming a financial crisis of the vagaries of little understood market dynamics is not very satisfying. Blaming it on the dark hand of powerful families bent on word domination is in some way satisfying. It give people someone to point to.
In this thread there is a post about closed, sometimes referred to as "dead" shopping malls and how such must be part of some dark plan to turn such into concentration camps. I think this post demonstrates what I am talking about. Retail has undergone in the past and continue to undergo massive change. At one time the big department stores were all downtown and that is where people went to shop, Then as people moved from the city centres to the suburbs after WWII the shopping centre and then the mall displaced those large in town department stores, Eventually those building were revamped for other uses. Then the trend became the "big box" stand alone stores, and now we are moving to a retail environment where delivery is the norm. All of this is as natural a process as another but we don't like to think like that, we seek order, we seek a explanation for why that mall or store sit empty. Something more satisfying to us than the simple fact that retail changed. So we construct in our minds that these places are bing emptied out for some other reason, something darker and sinister. Because that is order, that is understandable and the winds of retail change are not.
Of course there is also the tactic of referring to a conspiracy but never naming the conspirators. This is handy because the conspirators can be an ever shifting set of people or institutions, trade unions, fascists, communists, leftists the conspirators neatly fit into whoever one favourite boogyman might be. Once you name names however you're painting yourself into a corner and if it turns out you wrong then that's a problem. Far better to leave the Gadiantons unnamed and let everyone fill in the blanks for themselves.
So we seek order, we seek to understand forces outside of our control. If we can't understand it some will construct a framework to do so. Sometimes that framework is based on the sciences and sometimes it is based on emotions but it is a fundamental human need and we all will do it.
caburnha wrote: ↑September 13th, 2019, 7:26 pmgkearney wrote: ↑September 13th, 2019, 6:11 pm I've been thinking here about the original topic, the psychology of conspiracy theorists. I think the driving motivation to want to believe in such things, and they run a full range from the political and financial to to things like flat and hollow earth and weather manipulation, is a deep need to bring order to the world.
Much of the time the world appears to be a chaotic, dangerous and disturbing place. Storms strike and destroy property and kill the innocent, the vagaries of the markets seem unpredictable and can upend our lives, despots rule and even shopping centres closed. The world is a constant state of change much of it well beyond our, or anyone else's control.
But we humans like order, we want to understand why things are happening to us. This is why we study the sciences be it physical, biological, social, mathematical or financial, we seek to understand the forces which act upon us. Some people look to find this order in dark forces, forces beyond our control but still within the realm of the human experience. This gives them someone to blame, because blaming a financial crisis of the vagaries of little understood market dynamics is not very satisfying. Blaming it on the dark hand of powerful families bent on word domination is in some way satisfying. It give people someone to point to.
In this thread there is a post about closed, sometimes referred to as "dead" shopping malls and how such must be part of some dark plan to turn such into concentration camps. I think this post demonstrates what I am talking about. Retail has undergone in the past and continue to undergo massive change. At one time the big department stores were all downtown and that is where people went to shop, Then as people moved from the city centres to the suburbs after WWII the shopping centre and then the mall displaced those large in town department stores, Eventually those building were revamped for other uses. Then the trend became the "big box" stand alone stores, and now we are moving to a retail environment where delivery is the norm. All of this is as natural a process as another but we don't like to think like that, we seek order, we seek a explanation for why that mall or store sit empty. Something more satisfying to us than the simple fact that retail changed. So we construct in our minds that these places are bing emptied out for some other reason, something darker and sinister. Because that is order, that is understandable and the winds of retail change are not.
Of course there is also the tactic of referring to a conspiracy but never naming the conspirators. This is handy because the conspirators can be an ever shifting set of people or institutions, trade unions, fascists, communists, leftists the conspirators neatly fit into whoever one favourite boogyman might be. Once you name names however you're painting yourself into a corner and if it turns out you wrong then that's a problem. Far better to leave the Gadiantons unnamed and let everyone fill in the blanks for themselves.
So we seek order, we seek to understand forces outside of our control. If we can't understand it some will construct a framework to do so. Sometimes that framework is based on the sciences and sometimes it is based on emotions but it is a fundamental human need and we all will do it.
Funny how we have a Mason downplaying conspiracy.
Yeah.
But in saying: "He had been working the story in his mind for YEARS. He was inspired by the big issues of the day. Ethan Smith's "View of the Hebrews". He even references Ethan Smith years later but I digress.", you're making some pretty big assumptions.thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:01 pm . . . . . . Lucy Mack Smith said:
This was before he ever found the plates. He had been working the story in his mind for YEARS. He was inspired by the big issues of the day. Ethan Smith's "View of the Hebrews". He even references Ethan Smith years later but I digress.During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined: he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent; their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, and their buildings, with every particular; he would describe their <mode of> warfare, as also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ry-1845/94
^in case you want a reference
gkearney wrote: ↑September 13th, 2019, 6:11 pm I've been thinking here about the original topic, the psychology of conspiracy theorists. I think the driving motivation to want to believe in such things, and they run a full range from the political and financial to to things like flat and hollow earth and weather manipulation, is a deep need to bring order to the world.
Much of the time the world appears to be a chaotic, dangerous and disturbing place. Storms strike and destroy property and kill the innocent, the vagaries of the markets seem unpredictable and can upend our lives, despots rule and even shopping centres closed. The world is a constant state of change much of it well beyond our, or anyone else's control.
But we humans like order, we want to understand why things are happening to us. This is why we study the sciences be it physical, biological, social, mathematical or financial, we seek to understand the forces which act upon us. Some people look to find this order in dark forces, forces beyond our control but still within the realm of the human experience. This gives them someone to blame, because blaming a financial crisis of the vagaries of little understood market dynamics is not very satisfying. Blaming it on the dark hand of powerful families bent on word domination is in some way satisfying. It give people someone to point to.
In this thread there is a post about closed, sometimes referred to as "dead" shopping malls and how such must be part of some dark plan to turn such into concentration camps. I think this post demonstrates what I am talking about. Retail has undergone in the past and continue to undergo massive change. At one time the big department stores were all downtown and that is where people went to shop, Then as people moved from the city centres to the suburbs after WWII the shopping centre and then the mall displaced those large in town department stores, Eventually those building were revamped for other uses. Then the trend became the "big box" stand alone stores, and now we are moving to a retail environment where delivery is the norm. All of this is as natural a process as another but we don't like to think like that, we seek order, we seek a explanation for why that mall or store sit empty. Something more satisfying to us than the simple fact that retail changed. So we construct in our minds that these places are bing emptied out for some other reason, something darker and sinister. Because that is order, that is understandable and the winds of retail change are not.
Of course there is also the tactic of referring to a conspiracy but never naming the conspirators. This is handy because the conspirators can be an ever shifting set of people or institutions, trade unions, fascists, communists, leftists the conspirators neatly fit into whoever one favourite boogyman might be. Once you name names however you're painting yourself into a corner and if it turns out you wrong then that's a problem. Far better to leave the Gadiantons unnamed and let everyone fill in the blanks for themselves.
So we seek order, we seek to understand forces outside of our control. If we can't understand it some will construct a framework to do so. Sometimes that framework is based on the sciences and sometimes it is based on emotions but it is a fundamental human need and we all will do it.
caburnha wrote: ↑September 13th, 2019, 7:26 pmgkearney wrote: ↑September 13th, 2019, 6:11 pm I've been thinking here about the original topic, the psychology of conspiracy theorists. I think the driving motivation to want to believe in such things, and they run a full range from the political and financial to to things like flat and hollow earth and weather manipulation, is a deep need to bring order to the world.
Much of the time the world appears to be a chaotic, dangerous and disturbing place. Storms strike and destroy property and kill the innocent, the vagaries of the markets seem unpredictable and can upend our lives, despots rule and even shopping centres closed. The world is a constant state of change much of it well beyond our, or anyone else's control.
But we humans like order, we want to understand why things are happening to us. This is why we study the sciences be it physical, biological, social, mathematical or financial, we seek to understand the forces which act upon us. Some people look to find this order in dark forces, forces beyond our control but still within the realm of the human experience. This gives them someone to blame, because blaming a financial crisis of the vagaries of little understood market dynamics is not very satisfying. Blaming it on the dark hand of powerful families bent on word domination is in some way satisfying. It give people someone to point to.
In this thread there is a post about closed, sometimes referred to as "dead" shopping malls and how such must be part of some dark plan to turn such into concentration camps. I think this post demonstrates what I am talking about. Retail has undergone in the past and continue to undergo massive change. At one time the big department stores were all downtown and that is where people went to shop, Then as people moved from the city centres to the suburbs after WWII the shopping centre and then the mall displaced those large in town department stores, Eventually those building were revamped for other uses. Then the trend became the "big box" stand alone stores, and now we are moving to a retail environment where delivery is the norm. All of this is as natural a process as another but we don't like to think like that, we seek order, we seek a explanation for why that mall or store sit empty. Something more satisfying to us than the simple fact that retail changed. So we construct in our minds that these places are bing emptied out for some other reason, something darker and sinister. Because that is order, that is understandable and the winds of retail change are not.
Of course there is also the tactic of referring to a conspiracy but never naming the conspirators. This is handy because the conspirators can be an ever shifting set of people or institutions, trade unions, fascists, communists, leftists the conspirators neatly fit into whoever one favourite boogyman might be. Once you name names however you're painting yourself into a corner and if it turns out you wrong then that's a problem. Far better to leave the Gadiantons unnamed and let everyone fill in the blanks for themselves.
So we seek order, we seek to understand forces outside of our control. If we can't understand it some will construct a framework to do so. Sometimes that framework is based on the sciences and sometimes it is based on emotions but it is a fundamental human need and we all will do it.
Funny how we have a Mason downplaying conspiracy.
Then all herd mentality - including our cultish church - is conspiracy. Actually - was it the 1960’s when conspiring correlation began - so we now have our cookie cutter religion? And anyone who dares not obey is punished.Fiannan wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 11:24 amI disagree. People with free will make choices, people presented all the facts make choices, people subjected to mind control and manipulation by the powers-that-be are led to destruction because they are unaware. It is as if a group of people see a blind person at a train station trying to find his way. They each tell him to take this direction, then another direction, until he is led off the platform in front of an arriving train. He had free will, but he trusted the individuals to all be telling the truth.Each of the things you reference are attempts to persuade people. In no case was their agency taken. They are simply groups of people doing immoral things for profit or groups trying to persuade people to engage in immorality for their own benefit. None of that is conspiratorial. It is not happening in secret. It does not take the agency of the target audience.
Conspiracies don't always have to look like an episode of the X-Files.
I didn't say there were no conspiracies and indeed the death of Epstein clarly would suggest a murder. However it is also the case that not EVERYTHING is a result of a conspiracy. Every time some shopping mall goes bust it isn't the result of some dark hand at play. Sometimes, even most of the time things just happen.David13 wrote: ↑September 14th, 2019, 6:15 pm
And some things are just so preposterous that you cannot believe them.
Look at all the evidence on the JFK assassination.
None of the government's explanation fits.
Epstein in the New York jail cell. That's just preposterous without any evidence. The entire story has no plausibility to it.
And if you think that more than 1 person was involved, then you too, just like the Mormons believe not inn conspiracy theories, but conspiracy facts.
As to the names, no one will ever know all the names. On many of these conspiracies, even the conspirators do not know all the names of those in the conspiracy. It's part of doing it. Compartmentalization. The ringleaders don't want their name known and they don't want any of theconspiratoores to know who the others are, unless they need to know.
I guess you don't know anything about crime anc criminal conspiracies, and don't have much imagination.
dc
David13 wrote: ↑September 14th, 2019, 6:20 pmcaburnha wrote: ↑September 13th, 2019, 7:26 pmgkearney wrote: ↑September 13th, 2019, 6:11 pm I've been thinking here about the original topic, the psychology of conspiracy theorists. I think the driving motivation to want to believe in such things, and they run a full range from the political and financial to to things like flat and hollow earth and weather manipulation, is a deep need to bring order to the world.
Much of the time the world appears to be a chaotic, dangerous and disturbing place. Storms strike and destroy property and kill the innocent, the vagaries of the markets seem unpredictable and can upend our lives, despots rule and even shopping centres closed. The world is a constant state of change much of it well beyond our, or anyone else's control.
But we humans like order, we want to understand why things are happening to us. This is why we study the sciences be it physical, biological, social, mathematical or financial, we seek to understand the forces which act upon us. Some people look to find this order in dark forces, forces beyond our control but still within the realm of the human experience. This gives them someone to blame, because blaming a financial crisis of the vagaries of little understood market dynamics is not very satisfying. Blaming it on the dark hand of powerful families bent on word domination is in some way satisfying. It give people someone to point to.
In this thread there is a post about closed, sometimes referred to as "dead" shopping malls and how such must be part of some dark plan to turn such into concentration camps. I think this post demonstrates what I am talking about. Retail has undergone in the past and continue to undergo massive change. At one time the big department stores were all downtown and that is where people went to shop, Then as people moved from the city centres to the suburbs after WWII the shopping centre and then the mall displaced those large in town department stores, Eventually those building were revamped for other uses. Then the trend became the "big box" stand alone stores, and now we are moving to a retail environment where delivery is the norm. All of this is as natural a process as another but we don't like to think like that, we seek order, we seek a explanation for why that mall or store sit empty. Something more satisfying to us than the simple fact that retail changed. So we construct in our minds that these places are bing emptied out for some other reason, something darker and sinister. Because that is order, that is understandable and the winds of retail change are not.
Of course there is also the tactic of referring to a conspiracy but never naming the conspirators. This is handy because the conspirators can be an ever shifting set of people or institutions, trade unions, fascists, communists, leftists the conspirators neatly fit into whoever one favourite boogyman might be. Once you name names however you're painting yourself into a corner and if it turns out you wrong then that's a problem. Far better to leave the Gadiantons unnamed and let everyone fill in the blanks for themselves.
So we seek order, we seek to understand forces outside of our control. If we can't understand it some will construct a framework to do so. Sometimes that framework is based on the sciences and sometimes it is based on emotions but it is a fundamental human need and we all will do it.
Funny how we have a Mason downplaying conspiracy.
What an excellent comment. Laughable indeed.
But consider. Even if gk thinks he is at the top of their game, do you really think they would let him in on what they really have going? I certainly don't think so.
dc
Every religion, every marketing firm, every school and every government conspires. If we define conspiracy as two or more people working for an objective in relations to one or more people unaware of the agenda then even parents conspire. The big difference is if we also include in the definition the intent to do harm, and that is where it gets tricky. Maybe the parents are atheist and are worried that their daughter is beginning to take an interest in religion. Rather than confront her they are subtle, maybe choosing entertainment in the home that presents religion as evil. Maybe they encourage her to do a report on child abuse by Catholic priests for a high school project. Yes, they are conspiring, and to people who are religious they are adding the element in the general definition of doing harm. Yet they believe they are doing the right thing and hoping she has a better life without religion.Then all herd mentality - including our cultish church - is conspiracy. Actually - was it the 1960’s when conspiring correlation began - so we now have our cookie cutter religion? And anyone who dares not obey is punished.
gkearney wrote: ↑September 14th, 2019, 7:48 pmI didn't say there were no conspiracies and indeed the death of Epstein clarly would suggest a murder. However it is also the case that not EVERYTHING is a result of a conspiracy. Every time some shopping mall goes bust it isn't the result of some dark hand at play. Sometimes, even most of the time things just happen.David13 wrote: ↑September 14th, 2019, 6:15 pm
And some things are just so preposterous that you cannot believe them.
Look at all the evidence on the JFK assassination.
None of the government's explanation fits.
Epstein in the New York jail cell. That's just preposterous without any evidence. The entire story has no plausibility to it.
And if you think that more than 1 person was involved, then you too, just like the Mormons believe not inn conspiracy theories, but conspiracy facts.
As to the names, no one will ever know all the names. On many of these conspiracies, even the conspirators do not know all the names of those in the conspiracy. It's part of doing it. Compartmentalization. The ringleaders don't want their name known and they don't want any of theconspiratoores to know who the others are, unless they need to know.
I guess you don't know anything about crime anc criminal conspiracies, and don't have much imagination.
dc
This reminds me of...Fiannan wrote: ↑September 15th, 2019, 1:16 amEvery religion, every marketing firm, every school and every government conspires. If we define conspiracy as two or more people working for an objective in relations to one or more people unaware of the agenda then even parents conspire. The big difference is if we also include in the definition the intent to do harm, and that is where it gets tricky. Maybe the parents are atheist and are worried that their daughter is beginning to take an interest in religion. Rather than confront her they are subtle, maybe choosing entertainment in the home that presents religion as evil. Maybe they encourage her to do a report on child abuse by Catholic priests for a high school project. Yes, they are conspiring, and to people who are religious they are adding the element in the general definition of doing harm. Yet they believe they are doing the right thing and hoping she has a better life without religion.Then all herd mentality - including our cultish church - is conspiracy. Actually - was it the 1960’s when conspiring correlation began - so we now have our cookie cutter religion? And anyone who dares not obey is punished.
Of course all religions conspire as well, but we hope their intent is to help people have better lives and make it to a higher place in the afterlife. The people who are in charge of correlation believe they are doing the right thing, just as Jesuits with their own agendas believe they are doing God's work. All I think people should be aware of is that they really do not have much free will once they choose a certain path. The influences upon them will nudge them more and more towards the desired aim.