LDS Freedom Forum

larsenb wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 11:00 am

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 9:34 am . . . . I said for me, not speaking for anyone else. Mormonism gave me an unhealthy worldview.....all the "outsiders" are evil and need saving in the ordinances of the COJCOLDS. The second coming and preceding "great tribulation" is imminent etc. I wasted a lot of years being depressed and waiting for the shiz to hit the fan. Now I am an optimistic person and I dont worry about all the fearmongering anymore. . . .

I can sympathize with this point of view to a degree. I had a lot of problems w/the Church/Gospel when I reached an age when I became consciously aware of some major flaws in the marriage of my parents.

But regarding the view that LDS view all outsiders as evil and needing saving, that was never big in my understanding or that of my family, and i actually think that LDS should have an advantage by understanding the reality of secret combinations in our day.

That's what Christopher Bollyn, a premier non-LDS 9/11 researcher, thought about it when he heard of the BoM emphasis on understanding secret combinations from Dr. Steven Jones.

Fiannan wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 11:49 am So much projecting on this thread. People saying that believing in conspiracies is an attempt to be superior while they are the ones making it sound like they are superior. Ironic, huh?

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 11:57 am

Fiannan wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 11:49 am So much projecting on this thread. People saying that believing in conspiracies is an attempt to be superior while they are the ones making it sound like they are superior. Ironic, huh?

Its funny that you mention this. I didnt get the same vibe when I read through the thread...but since you brought it up, I actually felt like everyone around me was an idiot for not knowing about or caring to learn about the conspiracies that I believed in (many of which I still believe in). I used the term "sheep" a lot. I still feel that way about our society lol...looking to Kim Kardashian while the Constitution gets more and more shredded each day. Regardless, I became a happier and more fulfilled person when I stopped focusing on the conspiracies and the evil in the world and anticipating the "Cleansing of America" and all the other foretold Doom and just went about the business of pulling myself out of depression and putting my focus on positive things.

I dont think I am superior to anyone who is where I used to be.....I just view it as their time to be staring into the abyss and I anticipate when they will come out the other side of it a happier person, like I did.

larsenb wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 11:16 am

Serragon wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 9:53 am

Fiannan wrote: ↑September 11th, 2019, 11:04 pm Conspiracies can involve coordinated, as well as informal group think behind the scenes of the so-called elite, to change the values of a people.

Examples:

Getting women to shave was started by a magazine one-hundred years ago and then supported by the fashion industry that wanted women to start wearing more revealing attire. Now it is considered weird for a woman not to shave and such women get scorned by society.

Getting people to stop seeing large families as a good thing was certainly an effort that one can recognize by studying population policy starting in the 1950s.

The sexual revolution was not an organic movement but was promoted by many of the same people who wanted to reduce population as well as the left which wanted to fracture the family structure which they saw as the foundations of "fascism."

Abortion "rights" was promoted at first by corporate interests, as it is today, to keep women in the workforce.

And we can go on and on. People who think things just happen without behind-the-scenes planning are naive and generally ignorant. Yet they call those who do their research paranoid and ill-informed.

. . . . 9/11 was a conspiracy on the part of AQ. They planned the murder of thousands in secret and carried it out in secret. To call normal marketing and lobbying activities a conspiracy as you have done cheapens and obscures actual conspiracy.

Osama bin Laden testifies that AQ didn't do it. Its never been really proven that they did. And by believing they did do it you are ignoring a vaaast amount of evidence that they didn't do it.

Just one example: unexploded nanothermite was found in multiple WTC/9/11 dust samples by more than one investigator, coupled with myriad small iron-laden spherules (found by at least 3 independent labs) formed from molten metal. Neither jet fuel nor office fires burn hot enough to melt steel, yet Iron-rich molten metal is a byproduct of the thermite/thermate redox reactions.

How did AQ get ahold of military-grade nano-thermite, which was being produced primarily in US/Israeli military labs and/or other research facilities. How did they place this material, as well as possible other explosive materials, in 3 separate WTC buildings?

'Al Qaeda did it' is what is known as a canard. Of course you're welcome to believe what you want.

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 11:45 am

larsenb wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 11:00 am

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 9:34 am . . . . I said for me, not speaking for anyone else. Mormonism gave me an unhealthy worldview.....all the "outsiders" are evil and need saving in the ordinances of the COJCOLDS. The second coming and preceding "great tribulation" is imminent etc. I wasted a lot of years being depressed and waiting for the shiz to hit the fan. Now I am an optimistic person and I dont worry about all the fearmongering anymore. . . .

I can sympathize with this point of view to a degree. I had a lot of problems w/the Church/Gospel when I reached an age when I became consciously aware of some major flaws in the marriage of my parents.

But regarding the view that LDS view all outsiders as evil and needing saving, that was never big in my understanding or that of my family, and i actually think that LDS should have an advantage by understanding the reality of secret combinations in our day.

That's what Christopher Bollyn, a premier non-LDS 9/11 researcher, thought about it when he heard of the BoM emphasis on understanding secret combinations from Dr. Steven Jones.

Indeed. Thanks for sharing. I commented in this thread because I very much believe in the New World Order conspiracy and 9/11 was the one that made me particularly depressed and buying gold/silver/bitcoin/food storage/ammo until I realized that the future events, as prophecied, cannot be changed and the real protection comes from following Christ and doing the best you can do. I dont pay attention to the conspiracies as much, and I am a happier person. Lastly, I will say....I began to view EVERYTHING with the lense of "conspiracy theory" and it was unhealthy for me. And that worldview, for me, came from my belief in the doctrines and teachings of the church.

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 11:42 am

larsenb wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 10:45 am

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 9:34 am

larsenb wrote: ↑September 11th, 2019, 3:45 pm

"It introduces God into a the production of a book that is actually quite flawed and very, VERY easily explained by human production." You've GOT to be kidding. Explain away, budd.

And no, "conspiracy theories" are not "the cause of things". Conspiracies themselves, not theories about them, are the cause of ALL criminal, illegal, and tyrannical ploys, events, movements, etc., etc., indulged in by more than one person. And who exactly "defaults to them as a response for most of how the world works"? Nobody I know. Why is that? Because they understand that, by far, most activity and action in the world is not driven by criminal intent or activity.

The other flaw I see in your approach is to imply that this is a "worldview brought about by Mormonism". Again, almost by orders of magnitude, most of the evidence and thought going into discovering, understanding and outing conspiracies comes from people who probably know little or nothing about Mormonism.

I said for me, not speaking for anyone else. Mormonism gave me an unhealthy worldview.....all the "outsiders" are evil and need saving in the ordinances of the COJCOLDS. The second coming and preceding "great tribulation" is imminent etc. I wasted a lot of years being depressed and waiting for the shiz to hit the fan. Now I am an optimistic person and I dont worry about all the fearmongering anymore.

As for the flaws of the BOM, I detect some hostility and so I wont engage in this. There are plenty of resources available to see all the flaws...but something tells me you dont care. Thats cool.

No hostility. I was just trying to get you to elucidate. But I detect great reluctance, so I don't want to push the issue. I'm quite aware of the arguments against the BoM. But I also detect that you don't seem to be very aware of the arguments FOR the BoM, or conveniently choose to ignore them, as well as all the direct witnesses to it, both physical and spiritual. Ah well.

A recent talk by one of the Apostles was to the effect that in our day, we all have easy access to all the pro and con arguments regarding the truth of the Church, Joseph Smith, the Gospel, the Restoration, etc. . . . . if we are of a mind to seek them out. So why not go with the pro arguments? You've apparently chosen to go with the con side of things. But that's cool. Your choice. I'll never be able to persuade you otherwise. In cases such as this, I just post for the general reader, as I'm sure many posters do.

Dont assume too much. I spent 38 years slurping down the pro-BOM arguments and ignoring all the evidence. I have now taken a more balanced approach and in MY OPINION (sorry to stress this, I just really want to make sure you dont feel I am attacking your faith or anyone else's faith).....the Book cannot pass the test of historical ancient text due to the mountains of evidence against it and Joseph Smith's particular talent for storytelling while dictating to scribes.

Yeah, there can be a danger in staring into darkness. We have to be aware of it, but if our eye is focused on darkness we will be filled with darkness - which is why the Lord told us to have our eye single to the light.

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

larsenb wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 1:17 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 11:42 am

larsenb wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 10:45 am

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 9:34 am

I said for me, not speaking for anyone else. Mormonism gave me an unhealthy worldview.....all the "outsiders" are evil and need saving in the ordinances of the COJCOLDS. The second coming and preceding "great tribulation" is imminent etc. I wasted a lot of years being depressed and waiting for the shiz to hit the fan. Now I am an optimistic person and I dont worry about all the fearmongering anymore.

As for the flaws of the BOM, I detect some hostility and so I wont engage in this. There are plenty of resources available to see all the flaws...but something tells me you dont care. Thats cool.

No hostility. I was just trying to get you to elucidate. But I detect great reluctance, so I don't want to push the issue. I'm quite aware of the arguments against the BoM. But I also detect that you don't seem to be very aware of the arguments FOR the BoM, or conveniently choose to ignore them, as well as all the direct witnesses to it, both physical and spiritual. Ah well.

A recent talk by one of the Apostles was to the effect that in our day, we all have easy access to all the pro and con arguments regarding the truth of the Church, Joseph Smith, the Gospel, the Restoration, etc. . . . . if we are of a mind to seek them out. So why not go with the pro arguments? You've apparently chosen to go with the con side of things. But that's cool. Your choice. I'll never be able to persuade you otherwise. In cases such as this, I just post for the general reader, as I'm sure many posters do.

Dont assume too much. I spent 38 years slurping down the pro-BOM arguments and ignoring all the evidence. I have now taken a more balanced approach and in MY OPINION (sorry to stress this, I just really want to make sure you dont feel I am attacking your faith or anyone else's faith).....the Book cannot pass the test of historical ancient text due to the mountains of evidence against it and Joseph Smith's particular talent for storytelling while dictating to scribes.

Attack away. I always like to test my ideas against opposition.

But from my point of view, you've let yourself actually go past the balance point. So much of the so called evidence against the Book of Mormon consists of what appear to be historical anomalies/anachronisms. But the number of these has continued to dwindle since the book first came out.

For me the copy and paste of Duetero-Isaiah is what killed my testimony that the Book is an actual historical document. I say balanced because I still derive much value from it and from Joseph Smith....but I no longer believe the book is anything more than a contemporary work dictated by a BRILLIANT orator and a man who was more familiar with the Bible than perhaps any person we've seen since.

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 1:20 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 1:17 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 11:42 am

larsenb wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 10:45 am

No hostility. I was just trying to get you to elucidate. But I detect great reluctance, so I don't want to push the issue. I'm quite aware of the arguments against the BoM. But I also detect that you don't seem to be very aware of the arguments FOR the BoM, or conveniently choose to ignore them, as well as all the direct witnesses to it, both physical and spiritual. Ah well.

A recent talk by one of the Apostles was to the effect that in our day, we all have easy access to all the pro and con arguments regarding the truth of the Church, Joseph Smith, the Gospel, the Restoration, etc. . . . . if we are of a mind to seek them out. So why not go with the pro arguments? You've apparently chosen to go with the con side of things. But that's cool. Your choice. I'll never be able to persuade you otherwise. In cases such as this, I just post for the general reader, as I'm sure many posters do.

Dont assume too much. I spent 38 years slurping down the pro-BOM arguments and ignoring all the evidence. I have now taken a more balanced approach and in MY OPINION (sorry to stress this, I just really want to make sure you dont feel I am attacking your faith or anyone else's faith).....the Book cannot pass the test of historical ancient text due to the mountains of evidence against it and Joseph Smith's particular talent for storytelling while dictating to scribes.

Attack away. I always like to test my ideas against opposition.

But from my point of view, you've let yourself actually go past the balance point. So much of the so called evidence against the Book of Mormon consists of what appear to be historical anomalies/anachronisms. But the number of these has continued to dwindle since the book first came out.

For me the copy and paste of Duetero-Isaiah is what killed my testimony that the Book is an actual historical document. I say balanced because I still derive much value from it and from Joseph Smith....but I no longer believe the book is anything more than a contemporary work dictated by a BRILLIANT orator and a man who was more familiar with the Bible than perhaps any person we've seen since.

Fiannan wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 1:27 pm

For me the copy and paste of Duetero-Isaiah is what killed my testimony that the Book is an actual historical document. I say balanced because I still derive much value from it and from Joseph Smith....but I no longer believe the book is anything more than a contemporary work dictated by a BRILLIANT orator and a man who was more familiar with the Bible than perhaps any person we've seen since.

And yet many people point to Enki, Enlil, Anu and Ninhursag and say the parallels with between Jesus, Lucifer, God the Father and the Holy Spirit mean it was copied. Then again, in the future, people could say that Brigham Young did not exist because it sounds as if someone copied the story of Moses.

larsenb wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 1:55 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 1:20 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 1:17 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 11:42 am

Dont assume too much. I spent 38 years slurping down the pro-BOM arguments and ignoring all the evidence. I have now taken a more balanced approach and in MY OPINION (sorry to stress this, I just really want to make sure you dont feel I am attacking your faith or anyone else's faith).....the Book cannot pass the test of historical ancient text due to the mountains of evidence against it and Joseph Smith's particular talent for storytelling while dictating to scribes.

Attack away. I always like to test my ideas against opposition.

But from my point of view, you've let yourself actually go past the balance point. So much of the so called evidence against the Book of Mormon consists of what appear to be historical anomalies/anachronisms. But the number of these has continued to dwindle since the book first came out.

For me the copy and paste of Duetero-Isaiah is what killed my testimony that the Book is an actual historical document. I say balanced because I still derive much value from it and from Joseph Smith....but I no longer believe the book is anything more than a contemporary work dictated by a BRILLIANT orator and a man who was more familiar with the Bible than perhaps any person we've seen since.

That's a stretch, given the testimony of his family and those who knew him regarding his level of education. I don't think any of them ever commented on his genius level photographic memory, for instance. This ability would have been very evident to his family.

The coherence alone of the various elements of the book are beyond belief. Done with no back-tracking or editing outside of correcting passages not written correctly by the scribe as they came from JS's mouth. If you've ever done extensive writing of articles/books/reports you would know how extremely difficult, nay, impossible, this would be. And then, what about the myriad witnesses: the three, the 8 and the others, including the wife of Peter Whitmer, as I recall, Emma and JS's mother, etc.

During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined: he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent; their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, and their buildings, with every particular; he would describe their <​mode of​> warfare, as also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.

What are you getting at? Are you saying the text in the BOM Isaiah verses is not the same as in the KJV? Are you ignoring this fact because it is inconvenient by bringing up other issues unrelated to the Book of Mormon?

Its not impossible. Human beings are capable of amazing things. I would not be surprised if Star Wars was a full fledged religion in 100 years.

Fiannan wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:08 pm

What are you getting at? Are you saying the text in the BOM Isaiah verses is not the same as in the KJV? Are you ignoring this fact because it is inconvenient by bringing up other issues unrelated to the Book of Mormon?

Not really unrelated. Some people think the name Nephi is from the Nephilim. He is described as tall, isn't he.

You know, Jews could say that our Bible has many books the Jews find holy. Why? Because the foundations of both faiths find them important. So is it so hard to believe that Nephi found a relatively contemporary prophet like Isaiah very important - so important as to pass these on to future generations? And is it so hard to believe that Lehi's family had more documents on them than their family histories?

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:12 pm

Fiannan wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:08 pm

What are you getting at? Are you saying the text in the BOM Isaiah verses is not the same as in the KJV? Are you ignoring this fact because it is inconvenient by bringing up other issues unrelated to the Book of Mormon?

Not really unrelated. Some people think the name Nephi is from the Nephilim. He is described as tall, isn't he.

You know, Jews could say that our Bible has many books the Jews find holy. Why? Because the foundations of both faiths find them important. So is it so hard to believe that Nephi found a relatively contemporary prophet like Isaiah very important - so important as to pass these on to future generations? And is it so hard to believe that Lehi's family had more documents on them than their family histories?

No, I believed it my whole life.

The problem is Deutero-Isaiah did not exist at the time Lehi left Jerusalem. This has been confirmed by Bible Scholars, including our own David Bokovy who laughed when his contemporaries told him he'd lose his testimony of the BOM if he decided to pursue his PhD. He came to realize they were right unfortunately, and Duetero-Isaiah is one of the biggest smoking guns.

larsenb wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:21 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:12 pm

Fiannan wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:08 pm

What are you getting at? Are you saying the text in the BOM Isaiah verses is not the same as in the KJV? Are you ignoring this fact because it is inconvenient by bringing up other issues unrelated to the Book of Mormon?

Not really unrelated. Some people think the name Nephi is from the Nephilim. He is described as tall, isn't he.

You know, Jews could say that our Bible has many books the Jews find holy. Why? Because the foundations of both faiths find them important. So is it so hard to believe that Nephi found a relatively contemporary prophet like Isaiah very important - so important as to pass these on to future generations? And is it so hard to believe that Lehi's family had more documents on them than their family histories?

No, I believed it my whole life.

The problem is Deutero-Isaiah did not exist at the time Lehi left Jerusalem. This has been confirmed by Bible Scholars, including our own David Bokovy who laughed when his contemporaries told him he'd lose his testimony of the BOM if he decided to pursue his PhD. He came to realize they were right unfortunately, and Duetero-Isaiah is one of the biggest smoking guns.

Give us some links. So Bokovy discovered that Isaiah didn't write the Book of Isaiah? Who did, then . . . and when?

larsenb wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:21 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:12 pm

Fiannan wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:08 pm

What are you getting at? Are you saying the text in the BOM Isaiah verses is not the same as in the KJV? Are you ignoring this fact because it is inconvenient by bringing up other issues unrelated to the Book of Mormon?

Not really unrelated. Some people think the name Nephi is from the Nephilim. He is described as tall, isn't he.

You know, Jews could say that our Bible has many books the Jews find holy. Why? Because the foundations of both faiths find them important. So is it so hard to believe that Nephi found a relatively contemporary prophet like Isaiah very important - so important as to pass these on to future generations? And is it so hard to believe that Lehi's family had more documents on them than their family histories?

No, I believed it my whole life.

The problem is Deutero-Isaiah did not exist at the time Lehi left Jerusalem. This has been confirmed by Bible Scholars, including our own David Bokovy who laughed when his contemporaries told him he'd lose his testimony of the BOM if he decided to pursue his PhD. He came to realize they were right unfortunately, and Duetero-Isaiah is one of the biggest smoking guns.

Give us some links. So Bokovy discovered that Isaiah didn't write the Book of Isaiah? Who did, then . . . and when?

justme wrote: ↑September 11th, 2019, 5:30 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑September 11th, 2019, 4:13 pm

Believing Joseph wrote: ↑September 11th, 2019, 3:07 pm

justme wrote: ↑September 11th, 2019, 9:01 am For instance some insist that a third part means one third and thus think that our Heavenly Father and his divine plan was so weak that he lost 33 percent of his children right off the bat....

How exactly do you come to the conclusion that the plan was "weak" because some people chose not to follow it?

If you want to say that the Father's plan is a failure if too many people make the wrong choices and get the wrong consequences, then you have to end up concluding that agency isn't all that central to our progression, and that's what the other plan is for.

Which is strange, because on other threads, justme claims to believe agency is all-important.

Thanks EmmaLee. So let me clarify. Agency is all important and I believe is an axiom. The only way to become perdition is to use your agency to absolutely decline the Father when you have a full unveiled understanding of what you are doing and its consequences. I believe DC 76 makes that clear. My understanding and belief is that the Father has a plan that will reward us all beyond comprehension, my personal understanding of the plan is near universalism, that is eventually all, except for the few perdition, will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. That is what I mean by a weak plan. The idea that our Father's divine spiritual genetics creates a race where 33% of his children would choose perdition or one in which upwards of 90% fails to reach the reward he would have for them.

I do not view all important agency to be at odds with my view.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 2:38 pm

justme wrote: ↑September 11th, 2019, 5:30 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑September 11th, 2019, 4:13 pm

Believing Joseph wrote: ↑September 11th, 2019, 3:07 pm

How exactly do you come to the conclusion that the plan was "weak" because some people chose not to follow it?

If you want to say that the Father's plan is a failure if too many people make the wrong choices and get the wrong consequences, then you have to end up concluding that agency isn't all that central to our progression, and that's what the other plan is for.

Which is strange, because on other threads, justme claims to believe agency is all-important.

Thanks EmmaLee. So let me clarify. Agency is all important and I believe is an axiom. The only way to become perdition is to use your agency to absolutely decline the Father when you have a full unveiled understanding of what you are doing and its consequences. I believe DC 76 makes that clear. My understanding and belief is that the Father has a plan that will reward us all beyond comprehension, my personal understanding of the plan is near universalism, that is eventually all, except for the few perdition, will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. That is what I mean by a weak plan. The idea that our Father's divine spiritual genetics creates a race where 33% of his children would choose perdition or one in which upwards of 90% fails to reach the reward he would have for them.

I do not view all important agency to be at odds with my view.

That was someone's plan, for sure -

"I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it" - Lucifer/Satan

He proposed to do this by force, by destroying the agency of man.

Contrasted with -

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” - Jesus Christ

The Savior also gave us the parable of the Ten Virgins - only 1/2 of whom were permitted into the wedding. This is akin to the other scriptures speaking of 1/2 being 'taken' and 1/2 being 'left' -

"Then shall two be in a field: the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken and the other left." etc. etc.

I understand your beliefs, as you've stated them before. I believe differently. God would cease to be God if he forced anyone to heaven. From one of our hymns -

Know this, that ev’ry soul is free
To choose his life and what he’ll be;
For this eternal truth is giv’n:
That God will force no man to heav’n.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/mus ... g=eng&_r=1

I believe that, as the scriptures say, the same spirit we have when we are alive, goes with us when we die - “That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:34.). If someone does not want to (try to) live as our Heavenly Father lives in their mortal life, they are not going to magically want to live with or like him in the next - and God is not going to force them to. Again, he would cease to be God if he did so, or even attempted to do so. Agency is supreme - he will not cross that boundary. That is my belief. Mankind has agency - not all will want to live with or like God again (and I personally think that number is/will be very high, sadly) - and he will not force them to. I am forever grateful for Heavenly Father's plan, and that he affords us our agency at all cost.

Serragon wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 9:53 am

Fiannan wrote: ↑September 11th, 2019, 11:04 pm Conspiracies can involve coordinated, as well as informal group think behind the scenes of the so-called elite, to change the values of a people.

Examples:

Getting women to shave was started by a magazine one-hundred years ago and then supported by the fashion industry that wanted women to start wearing more revealing attire. Now it is considered weird for a woman not to shave and such women get scorned by society.

Getting people to stop seeing large families as a good thing was certainly an effort that one can recognize by studying population policy starting in the 1950s.

The sexual revolution was not an organic movement but was promoted by many of the same people who wanted to reduce population as well as the left which wanted to fracture the family structure which they saw as the foundations of "fascism."

Abortion "rights" was promoted at first by corporate interests, as it is today, to keep women in the workforce.

And we can go on and on. People who think things just happen without behind-the-scenes planning are naive and generally ignorant. Yet they call those who do their research paranoid and ill-informed.

If behind the scenes planning is a conspiracy, then nearly every human endeavor is a conspiracy.
... There is no doubt that certain groups of people actively work to make their viewpoints mainstream in society so that behavior changes, but that is not conspiracy.

...

Fiannan wrote: ↑September 12th, 2019, 11:29 am

a secret plan made by two or more people to do something that is harmful or illegal

Websters definition of conspiracy.

So if someone sets up a plan to demonize people who marry and have large families, contacting people in the media and education to carry out the objectives to persuade people, in subtle ways, to not want more kids, that is an absolute conspiracy. Few people in the USA are aware that this indeed takes place in entertainment they think is merely the product of someone's imagination put to film. The people doing this think they are doing the right thing. Few people conspire to do harm....it just happens to be what happens due to their quest to make humanity better.

DesertWonderer2 wrote: ↑September 11th, 2019, 1:13 pm With those that I have known personally, let’s just say that life has not gone the way they had hoped. It’s easier and more convenient to blame some nameless group of satan worshipers / pedophiles for the lack of success in your life than to take responsibility for it yourself.

“I can never get out of this rental bc the Fed has the monetary system rigged against me”