psychology of conspiracy theorists

[justme]

For instance some insist that a third part means one third and thus think that our Heavenly Father and his divine plan was so weak that he lost 33 percent of his children right off the bat....

How exactly do you come to the conclusion that the plan was "weak" because some people chose not to follow it?

If you want to say that the Father's plan is a failure if too many people make the wrong choices and get the wrong consequences, then you have to end up concluding that agency isn't all that central to our progression, and that's what the other plan is for.

Which is strange, because on other threads, justme claims to believe agency is all-important.

Thanks EmmaLee. So let me clarify. Agency is all important and I believe is an axiom. The only way to become perdition is to use your agency to absolutely decline the Father when you have a full unveiled understanding of what you are doing and its consequences. I believe DC 76 makes that clear. My understanding and belief is that the Father has a plan that will reward us all beyond comprehension, my personal understanding of the plan is near universalism, that is eventually all, except for the few perdition, will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. That is what I mean by a weak plan. The idea that our Father's divine spiritual genetics creates a race where 33% of his children would choose perdition or one in which upwards of 90% fails to reach the reward he would have for them.

I do not view all important agency to be at odds with my view.

[David13]

I thought that today would be a good day to think and read more about the concept of conspiracy theories.


...


Is there an overlap between our cultural elitism and this psychological view of conspiracy theories?

I don't know what church you belong to, but a former prophet of the church I belong to has said that we don't believe in conspiracy theories. We believe in conspiracy FACTS.

But of course you are free to believe what you want.
dc

Oh, I should have read above, I now see someone has conveniently posted so that you may see in color the whole thing set out in black and white.

[justme]

I thought that today would be a good day to think and read more about the concept of conspiracy theories.


...


Is there an overlap between our cultural elitism and this psychological view of conspiracy theories?

I don't know what church you belong to, but a former prophet of the church I belong to has said that we don't believe in conspiracy theories. We believe in conspiracy FACTS.

But of course you are free to believe what you want.
dc

Oh, I should have read above, I now see someone has conveniently posted so that you may see in color the whole thing set out in black and white.

Of course I believe in evil, I believe in organized evil, and I believe in conspiracy. I thought it would be obvious in this thread of what I, and most people, would mean by conspiracy theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

I do not think President Benson was talking about fake moon landings, chemtrails and 9/11 truthers.

[David13]

The problem I am having with all this conspiracy stuff, even including the statements from President Benson is this. No one ever seem willing to give any specifics to this. They will not name names, date, places. They will not cite specific and verifiable actions of specific people. It's all this soft of vague notion that there are people, never named, who are involved in some grand conspiracy of some kind. No one is ever able to give an outline of just what specifically is being done and by who and for what reason.

A conspiracy on the scale spoken of would involved tens if not hundreds of thousands of people as well as organizations and even government yet not once in all the general conference talks do you get the names of these. Why is that? No offence is meant here but just how is anyone supposed to fight a conspiracy when we don't know who, where, or how to fight against it? Just some unspecific warning against an unspecific group of unnamed people really isn't very helpful.

...

Conspiracy "stuff"? Well I don't know what church you belong to but I know the words of the Prophet to be true. That the Book of Mormon is the handbook on this. You do not have to believe in any of it.

You sound like J Edgar Hoover. He used to deny that "organized crime" existed. But it was rather well known that there were certain individuals who had FBI immunity because they had some rather salacious information on Hoover.

There were of course many others in law enforcement who also denied the existence of "organized crime". Some of them were compromised, and others just wanted their job to be a lot easier, and that denial made it a lot easier.

Just because no one has told you the names does not mean something does not exist, unless you use the ostrich theory in your beliefs. If you haven't seen it, it doesn't exist.

And that includes the rather public information and evidence that is out there. And if you haven't caught on yet, in all probability I could bang you on the head with facts for a long time, and you still wouldn't get it. But again, no one says you have to believe the Book of Mormon or the obvious conspiracies presently in the world today.
dc

[David13]

For instance some insist that a third part means one third and thus think that our Heavenly Father and his divine plan was so weak that he lost 33 percent of his children right off the bat....

How exactly do you come to the conclusion that the plan was "weak" because some people chose not to follow it?

If you want to say that the Father's plan is a failure if too many people make the wrong choices and get the wrong consequences, then you have to end up concluding that agency isn't all that central to our progression, and that's what the other plan is for.

Which is strange, because on other threads, justme claims to believe agency is all-important.

Thanks EmmaLee. So let me clarify. Agency is all important and I believe is an axiom. The only way to become perdition is to use your agency to absolutely decline the Father when you have a full unveiled understanding of what you are doing and its consequences. I believe DC 76 makes that clear. My understanding and belief is that the Father has a plan that will reward us all beyond comprehension, my personal understanding of the plan is near universalism, that is eventually all, except for the few perdition, will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. That is what I mean by a weak plan. The idea that our Father's divine spiritual genetics creates a race where 33% of his children would choose perdition or one in which upwards of 90% fails to reach the reward he would have for them.

I do not view all important agency to be at odds with my view.

Oh, it is at odds. You are losing your freedom and thus your agency on a daily basis. Before long you will be a number, a cog in a giant wheel, and ... very expendable.
dc

[David13]

I thought that today would be a good day to think and read more about the concept of conspiracy theories.


...


Is there an overlap between our cultural elitism and this psychological view of conspiracy theories?

I don't know what church you belong to, but a former prophet of the church I belong to has said that we don't believe in conspiracy theories. We believe in conspiracy FACTS.

But of course you are free to believe what you want.
dc

Oh, I should have read above, I now see someone has conveniently posted so that you may see in color the whole thing set out in black and white.

Of course I believe in evil, I believe in organized evil, and I believe in conspiracy. I thought it would be obvious in this thread of what I, and most people, would mean by conspiracy theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

I do not think President Benson was talking about fake moon landings, chemtrails and 9/11 truthers.

In a sense that is true. Those are just little glimpses into the greater global evil. Little tips of the iceberg, and very little at that. It is all so much greater than that.
dc

[Juliet]

The problem I am having with all this conspiracy stuff, even including the statements from President Benson is this. No one ever seem willing to give any specifics to this. They will not name names, date, places. They will not cite specific and verifiable actions of specific people. It's all this soft of vague notion that there are people, never named, who are involved in some grand conspiracy of some kind. No one is ever able to give an outline of just what specifically is being done and by who and for what reason.

A conspiracy on the scale spoken of would involved tens if not hundreds of thousands of people as well as organizations and even government yet not once in all the general conference talks do you get the names of these. Why is that? No offence is meant here but just how is anyone supposed to fight a conspiracy when we don't know who, where, or how to fight against it? Just some unspecific warning against an unspecific group of unnamed people really isn't very helpful.

You wonder why we don't hear more about it anymore? Perhaps this is the reason.

It's kind of hard to segregate the guilty from the non guilty. It turns out we are all guilty in one way or another. It's a spiritual war first and foremost so I imagine that actually keeping our temple covenants would be step one to fighting this, as opposed to tar and feathering the supposed guilty.

[larsenb]

Mixing up very questionable propositions: faked moon landing, with very horrible, physical/psychological tragedies affecting people on a world-wide scale (e.g., the events of 9/11) is a form of straw man argumentation. There is nothing that would prevent high level conspirators from enabling/encouraging many of the things you mention as the main ills of the world, AND perpetrating events such as 9/11, etc., for their own purposes

I'm not equating the Moon Landing with 9/11, which was definitely a real tragedy - I'm just equating the belief that the Moon Landing was faked with the belief that 9/11 was an inside job, in the sense that both are conspiracy theories which I disbelieve.

No doubt there has been plenty of lying and evil intent behind getting America into the various Middle Eastern wars of the last quarter century; nevertheless, I think that for the 9/11 attacks, the simplest explanation is the best - namely, that Al Qaeda did it. There is no lack of motivation or means on their part, and no convincing evidence of a false-flag attack on the other hand.

But you seem to discount the really good scientific evidence that planes did not bring down the WTC Twin Towers by their resulting impact fire and damage; the same with the scientific/engineering evidence that was just presented on 3 Sept that office fires did not bring down WTC Bldg 7, which of course was not hit by an airplane. Why is that?

And the claim that 9/11 was “an inside job” is something of a red herring. Why? Because it sidesteps the issue that there could have been individuals outside of our government who likely played significant roles.

Also, do you understand that the official theory of 9/11, either having been perpetrated by al Kaeda or simply by 19 Muslim hijackers is itself a conspiracy theory? Why? Never proven in court or by any other judicial investigation. No real convictions. It's a theory about a conspiracy . . . because regardless of who planned 9/11, it was a conspiracy.

Plus, there is actually quite a bit of evidence, which you are apparently unaware of, that 9/11 was a false flag attack,

[larsenb]

. . . . This does not mean I don't believe there are secret combinations out there. There are. But 9/11 is not one of them.

I don't think anyone is claiming that 9/11 was a 'secret combination'. But it was certainly a conspiracy, regardless of whether you think it was planned and perpetrated by al Kaeda, 19 Muslim hijackers, the government, the deep state, or whoever you think planned and executed it.

[Fiannan]

The same problem exists with conspiracy theories. Though they often are the cause of things....defaulting to them as a response for most of how the world works is a TWISTED and INCORRECT worldview brought on by Mormonism...

How do you explain this quote from the father of modern advertising as well as being influential as a tool of the government in manipulation of the masses?

[larsenb]

The same problem exists with conspiracy theories. Though they often are the cause of things....defaulting to them as a response for most of how the world works is a TWISTED and INCORRECT worldview brought on by Mormonism...

How do you explain this quote from the father of modern advertising as well as being influential as a tool of the government in manipulation of the masses?

Also considered to be the father of modern propaganda methods. Oh. I posted before your image showed up indicating the propaganda part.

[Fiannan]

Conspiracies can involve coordinated, as well as informal group think behind the scenes of the so-called elite, to change the values of a people.

Examples:

Getting women to shave was started by a magazine one-hundred years ago and then supported by the fashion industry that wanted women to start wearing more revealing attire. Now it is considered weird for a woman not to shave and such women get scorned by society.

Getting people to stop seeing large families as a good thing was certainly an effort that one can recognize by studying population policy starting in the 1950s.

The sexual revolution was not an organic movement but was promoted by many of the same people who wanted to reduce population as well as the left which wanted to fracture the family structure which they saw as the foundations of "fascism."

Abortion "rights" was promoted at first by corporate interests, as it is today, to keep women in the workforce.

And we can go on and on. People who think things just happen without behind-the-scenes planning are naive and generally ignorant. Yet they call those who do their research paranoid and ill-informed.

[thestock]

If you rely on the supernatural or on conspiracies that cannot be proven, then your equation is not balanced correctly. This is the problem with the story of the translation of the gold plates. It introduces God into a the production of a book that is actually quite flawed and very, VERY easily explained by human production.

The same problem exists with conspiracy theories. Though they often are the cause of things....defaulting to them as a response for most of how the world works is a TWISTED and INCORRECT worldview brought on by Mormonism (in MY experience for ME, not speaking for anyone else) and the equation is so badly out of balance it would be nice if our Church could stop with the "persecution complex" and just focus on how to make the Members' lives as rewarding as possible.

"It introduces God into a the production of a book that is actually quite flawed and very, VERY easily explained by human production." You've GOT to be kidding. Explain away, budd.

And no, "conspiracy theories" are not "the cause of things". Conspiracies themselves, not theories about them, are the cause of ALL criminal, illegal, and tyrannical ploys, events, movements, etc., etc., indulged in by more than one person. And who exactly "defaults to them as a response for most of how the world works"? Nobody I know. Why is that? Because they understand that, by far, most activity and action in the world is not driven by criminal intent or activity.

The other flaw I see in your approach is to imply that this is a "worldview brought about by Mormonism". Again, almost by orders of magnitude, most of the evidence and thought going into discovering, understanding and outing conspiracies comes from people who probably know little or nothing about Mormonism.

I said for me, not speaking for anyone else. Mormonism gave me an unhealthy worldview.....all the "outsiders" are evil and need saving in the ordinances of the COJCOLDS. The second coming and preceding "great tribulation" is imminent etc. I wasted a lot of years being depressed and waiting for the shiz to hit the fan. Now I am an optimistic person and I dont worry about all the fearmongering anymore.

As for the flaws of the BOM, I detect some hostility and so I wont engage in this. There are plenty of resources available to see all the flaws...but something tells me you dont care. Thats cool.

[Serragon]

Conspiracies can involve coordinated, as well as informal group think behind the scenes of the so-called elite, to change the values of a people.

Examples:

Getting women to shave was started by a magazine one-hundred years ago and then supported by the fashion industry that wanted women to start wearing more revealing attire. Now it is considered weird for a woman not to shave and such women get scorned by society.

Getting people to stop seeing large families as a good thing was certainly an effort that one can recognize by studying population policy starting in the 1950s.

The sexual revolution was not an organic movement but was promoted by many of the same people who wanted to reduce population as well as the left which wanted to fracture the family structure which they saw as the foundations of "fascism."

Abortion "rights" was promoted at first by corporate interests, as it is today, to keep women in the workforce.

And we can go on and on. People who think things just happen without behind-the-scenes planning are naive and generally ignorant. Yet they call those who do their research paranoid and ill-informed.

If behind the scenes planning is a conspiracy, then nearly every human endeavor is a conspiracy.

These are all a good example of a conspiracy world view. Each of these has many other explanations, but to the conspiracy person the end result is evidence of the conspiracy. There is no doubt that certain groups of people actively work to make their viewpoints mainstream in society so that behavior changes, but that is not conspiracy. It is just basic human nature and tribalism at work.

9/11 was a conspiracy on the part of AQ. They planned the murder of thousands in secret and carried it out in secret. To call normal marketing and lobbying activities a conspiracy as you have done cheapens and obscures actual conspiracy.

[Fiannan]

Mormonism gave me an unhealthy worldview.....all the "outsiders" are evil and need saving in the ordinances of the COJCOLDS. The second coming and preceding "great tribulation" is imminent etc. I wasted a lot of years being depressed and waiting for the shiz to hit the fan. Now I am an optimistic person and I dont worry about all the fearmongering anymore.

Every sub-culture, every class, every religion, and every whatever sees themselves as in the "in group" and others as being different. It is part of human biology and psychology. Anyone who says differently is an idealistic fool who knows nothing of biology or psychology.

Every Abrahamic religion has a "great tribulation." For Christians, Jesus returns to smite the world and save the believers. In Judaism the savior appears and saves the Jews and smites their enemies. In Islam Jesus returns to assist Muslims and Christians in their fight against the infidels. After they are smitten then Jesus tells the Christians to convert to Islam. Half refuse and a new war develops.

And why be depressed? Civilizations grow and are destroyed - that is human history. Whether there is a god or not that is just what happens. And now we face the real possibility that the machines and computers we create will eventually kill us. Oh my gosh, if we think about all the horrid things that can occur we might get distracted and run off the road and die. Then that will be your destruction. Why stress?

[Fiannan]

9/11 was a conspiracy on the part of AQ. They planned the murder of thousands in secret and carried it out in secret. To call normal marketing and lobbying activities a conspiracy as you have done cheapens and obscures actual conspiracy.

Oh please, how many young women are stressed because Madison Avenue tells them they are worthless unless they buy all the makeup and clothes that are marketed to them? How many young women are persuaded to engage in premarital sex by Hollywood (leading to abortions, diseases, depression, etc) in slick programming? How are these not acts of conspiracy and, in a sense, moral terrorism by the agents of Lucifer himself? And what is the body count as opposed to what happened on 9-11? Recognizing that does not take away from the evil that took place in 2001, but pointing out the conspiracy aimed at us 24/7 is quite essential.

[Serragon]

9/11 was a conspiracy on the part of AQ. They planned the murder of thousands in secret and carried it out in secret. To call normal marketing and lobbying activities a conspiracy as you have done cheapens and obscures actual conspiracy.

Oh please, how many young women are stressed because Madison Avenue tells them they are worthless unless they buy all the makeup and clothes that are marketed to them? How many young women are persuaded to engage in premarital sex by Hollywood (leading to abortions, diseases, depression, etc) in slick programming? How are these not acts of conspiracy and, in a sense, moral terrorism by the agents of Lucifer himself? And what is the body count as opposed to what happened on 9-11?

Because that is not what the word conspiracy means. I am very sorry that the activities you are trying to attribute to that definition don't fit, but it is nevertheless true.

I agree that the things you reference are immoral. That does not make them a conspiracy.

Each of the things you reference are attempts to persuade people. In no case was their agency taken. They are simply groups of people doing immoral things for profit or groups trying to persuade people to engage in immorality for their own benefit. None of that is conspiratorial. It is not happening in secret. It does not take the agency of the target audience.

I can clearly see the difference between people trying to persuade versus people flying airplanes into buildings to murder people.

[JohnnyL]

Back to conspiracy theories: A social psychologist at the Johanes Gutenburg University Mainz states

"Belief in conspiracies can serve to set oneself apart from the ignorant masses—a self-serving boast about one’s exclusive knowledge. Adherence to conspiracy theory might not always be the result of some perceived lack of control, but rather a deep-seated need for uniqueness"
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9kg8 ... el-special

Is there an overlap between our cultural elitism and this psychological view of conspiracy theories?

No, but I do see one between it and Trump-haters.

[larsenb]

If you rely on the supernatural or on conspiracies that cannot be proven, then your equation is not balanced correctly. This is the problem with the story of the translation of the gold plates. It introduces God into a the production of a book that is actually quite flawed and very, VERY easily explained by human production.

The same problem exists with conspiracy theories. Though they often are the cause of things....defaulting to them as a response for most of how the world works is a TWISTED and INCORRECT worldview brought on by Mormonism (in MY experience for ME, not speaking for anyone else) and the equation is so badly out of balance it would be nice if our Church could stop with the "persecution complex" and just focus on how to make the Members' lives as rewarding as possible.

"It introduces God into a the production of a book that is actually quite flawed and very, VERY easily explained by human production." You've GOT to be kidding. Explain away, budd.

And no, "conspiracy theories" are not "the cause of things". Conspiracies themselves, not theories about them, are the cause of ALL criminal, illegal, and tyrannical ploys, events, movements, etc., etc., indulged in by more than one person. And who exactly "defaults to them as a response for most of how the world works"? Nobody I know. Why is that? Because they understand that, by far, most activity and action in the world is not driven by criminal intent or activity.

The other flaw I see in your approach is to imply that this is a "worldview brought about by Mormonism". Again, almost by orders of magnitude, most of the evidence and thought going into discovering, understanding and outing conspiracies comes from people who probably know little or nothing about Mormonism.

I said for me, not speaking for anyone else. Mormonism gave me an unhealthy worldview.....all the "outsiders" are evil and need saving in the ordinances of the COJCOLDS. The second coming and preceding "great tribulation" is imminent etc. I wasted a lot of years being depressed and waiting for the shiz to hit the fan. Now I am an optimistic person and I dont worry about all the fearmongering anymore.

As for the flaws of the BOM, I detect some hostility and so I wont engage in this. There are plenty of resources available to see all the flaws...but something tells me you dont care. Thats cool.

No hostility. I was just trying to get you to elucidate. But I detect great reluctance, so I don't want to push the issue. I'm quite aware of the arguments against the BoM. But I also detect that you don't seem to be very aware of the arguments FOR the BoM, or conveniently choose to ignore them, as well as all the direct witnesses to it, both physical and spiritual. Ah well.

A recent talk by one of the Apostles was to the effect that in our day, we all have easy access to all the pro and con arguments regarding the truth of the Church, Joseph Smith, the Gospel, the Restoration, etc. . . . . if we are of a mind to seek them out. So why not go with the pro arguments? You've apparently chosen to go with the con side of things. But that's cool. Your choice. I'll never be able to persuade you otherwise. In cases such as this, I just post for the general reader, as I'm sure many posters do.

[larsenb]

. . . . I said for me, not speaking for anyone else. Mormonism gave me an unhealthy worldview.....all the "outsiders" are evil and need saving in the ordinances of the COJCOLDS. The second coming and preceding "great tribulation" is imminent etc. I wasted a lot of years being depressed and waiting for the shiz to hit the fan. Now I am an optimistic person and I dont worry about all the fearmongering anymore. . . .

I can sympathize with this point of view to a degree. I had a lot of problems w/the Church/Gospel when I reached an age when I became consciously aware of some major flaws in the marriage of my parents.

But regarding the view that LDS view all outsiders as evil and needing saving, that was never big in my understanding or that of my family, and i actually think that LDS should have an advantage by understanding the reality of secret combinations in our day.

That's what Christopher Bollyn, a premier non-LDS 9/11 researcher, thought about it when he heard of the BoM emphasis on understanding secret combinations from Dr. Steven Jones.

[larsenb]

Conspiracies can involve coordinated, as well as informal group think behind the scenes of the so-called elite, to change the values of a people.

Examples:

Getting women to shave was started by a magazine one-hundred years ago and then supported by the fashion industry that wanted women to start wearing more revealing attire. Now it is considered weird for a woman not to shave and such women get scorned by society.

Getting people to stop seeing large families as a good thing was certainly an effort that one can recognize by studying population policy starting in the 1950s.

The sexual revolution was not an organic movement but was promoted by many of the same people who wanted to reduce population as well as the left which wanted to fracture the family structure which they saw as the foundations of "fascism."

Abortion "rights" was promoted at first by corporate interests, as it is today, to keep women in the workforce.

And we can go on and on. People who think things just happen without behind-the-scenes planning are naive and generally ignorant. Yet they call those who do their research paranoid and ill-informed.

. . . . 9/11 was a conspiracy on the part of AQ. They planned the murder of thousands in secret and carried it out in secret. To call normal marketing and lobbying activities a conspiracy as you have done cheapens and obscures actual conspiracy.

Osama bin Laden testifies that AQ didn't do it. Its never been really proven that they did. And by believing they did do it you are ignoring a vaaast amount of evidence that they didn't do it.

Just one example: unexploded nanothermite was found in multiple WTC/9/11 dust samples by more than one investigator, coupled with myriad small iron-laden spherules (found by at least 3 independent labs) formed from molten metal. Neither jet fuel nor office fires burn hot enough to melt steel, yet Iron-rich molten metal is a byproduct of the thermite/thermate redox reactions.

How did AQ get ahold of military-grade nano-thermite, which was being produced primarily in US/Israeli military labs and/or other research facilities. How did they place this material, as well as possible other explosive materials, in 3 separate WTC buildings?

'Al Qaeda did it' is what is known as a canard. Of course you're welcome to believe what you want.

[Fiannan]

Each of the things you reference are attempts to persuade people. In no case was their agency taken. They are simply groups of people doing immoral things for profit or groups trying to persuade people to engage in immorality for their own benefit. None of that is conspiratorial. It is not happening in secret. It does not take the agency of the target audience.

I disagree. People with free will make choices, people presented all the facts make choices, people subjected to mind control and manipulation by the powers-that-be are led to destruction because they are unaware. It is as if a group of people see a blind person at a train station trying to find his way. They each tell him to take this direction, then another direction, until he is led off the platform in front of an arriving train. He had free will, but he trusted the individuals to all be telling the truth.

Conspiracies don't always have to look like an episode of the X-Files.

[Fiannan]

a secret plan made by two or more people to do something that is harmful or illegal

Websters definition of conspiracy.

So if someone sets up a plan to demonize people who marry and have large families, contacting people in the media and education to carry out the objectives to persuade people, in subtle ways, to not want more kids, that is an absolute conspiracy. Few people in the USA are aware that this indeed takes place in entertainment they think is merely the product of someone's imagination put to film. The people doing this think they are doing the right thing. Few people conspire to do harm....it just happens to be what happens due to their quest to make humanity better.

[larsenb]

9/11 was a conspiracy on the part of AQ. They planned the murder of thousands in secret and carried it out in secret. To call normal marketing and lobbying activities a conspiracy as you have done cheapens and obscures actual conspiracy.

Oh please, how many young women are stressed because Madison Avenue tells them they are worthless unless they buy all the makeup and clothes that are marketed to them? How many young women are persuaded to engage in premarital sex by Hollywood (leading to abortions, diseases, depression, etc) in slick programming? How are these not acts of conspiracy and, in a sense, moral terrorism by the agents of Lucifer himself? And what is the body count as opposed to what happened on 9-11?

Because that is not what the word conspiracy means. I am very sorry that the activities you are trying to attribute to that definition don't fit, but it is nevertheless true.

I agree that the things you reference are immoral. That does not make them a conspiracy.

Each of the things you reference are attempts to persuade people. In no case was their agency taken. They are simply groups of people doing immoral things for profit or groups trying to persuade people to engage in immorality for their own benefit. None of that is conspiratorial. It is not happening in secret. It does not take the agency of the target audience.

I can clearly see the difference between people trying to persuade versus people flying airplanes into buildings to murder people.

There are clearly stated goals of communist/socialist/globalist factions and their followers (e.g., Antonio Gramsci, the Frankfurt group, the Fabians) to undermine certain societal 'institutions' such as marriage, the nuclear family, our Constitutional government, etc., through the promotion of activities that tend in this direction (you could throw in normalizing homosexuality, certain radical feminist attitudes, promotion of drug use; open borders, sexualizing young children and indoctrinating them regarding the 'normalcy of sexual deviency, etc., etc.)

In so far as they plan these activities outside of your purview, they are conspiring.

[thestock]

If you rely on the supernatural or on conspiracies that cannot be proven, then your equation is not balanced correctly. This is the problem with the story of the translation of the gold plates. It introduces God into a the production of a book that is actually quite flawed and very, VERY easily explained by human production.

The same problem exists with conspiracy theories. Though they often are the cause of things....defaulting to them as a response for most of how the world works is a TWISTED and INCORRECT worldview brought on by Mormonism (in MY experience for ME, not speaking for anyone else) and the equation is so badly out of balance it would be nice if our Church could stop with the "persecution complex" and just focus on how to make the Members' lives as rewarding as possible.

"It introduces God into a the production of a book that is actually quite flawed and very, VERY easily explained by human production." You've GOT to be kidding. Explain away, budd.

And no, "conspiracy theories" are not "the cause of things". Conspiracies themselves, not theories about them, are the cause of ALL criminal, illegal, and tyrannical ploys, events, movements, etc., etc., indulged in by more than one person. And who exactly "defaults to them as a response for most of how the world works"? Nobody I know. Why is that? Because they understand that, by far, most activity and action in the world is not driven by criminal intent or activity.

The other flaw I see in your approach is to imply that this is a "worldview brought about by Mormonism". Again, almost by orders of magnitude, most of the evidence and thought going into discovering, understanding and outing conspiracies comes from people who probably know little or nothing about Mormonism.

I said for me, not speaking for anyone else. Mormonism gave me an unhealthy worldview.....all the "outsiders" are evil and need saving in the ordinances of the COJCOLDS. The second coming and preceding "great tribulation" is imminent etc. I wasted a lot of years being depressed and waiting for the shiz to hit the fan. Now I am an optimistic person and I dont worry about all the fearmongering anymore.

As for the flaws of the BOM, I detect some hostility and so I wont engage in this. There are plenty of resources available to see all the flaws...but something tells me you dont care. Thats cool.

No hostility. I was just trying to get you to elucidate. But I detect great reluctance, so I don't want to push the issue. I'm quite aware of the arguments against the BoM. But I also detect that you don't seem to be very aware of the arguments FOR the BoM, or conveniently choose to ignore them, as well as all the direct witnesses to it, both physical and spiritual. Ah well.

A recent talk by one of the Apostles was to the effect that in our day, we all have easy access to all the pro and con arguments regarding the truth of the Church, Joseph Smith, the Gospel, the Restoration, etc. . . . . if we are of a mind to seek them out. So why not go with the pro arguments? You've apparently chosen to go with the con side of things. But that's cool. Your choice. I'll never be able to persuade you otherwise. In cases such as this, I just post for the general reader, as I'm sure many posters do.

Dont assume too much. I spent 38 years slurping down the pro-BOM arguments and ignoring all the evidence. I have now taken a more balanced approach and in MY OPINION (sorry to stress this, I just really want to make sure you dont feel I am attacking your faith or anyone else's faith).....the Book cannot pass the test of historical ancient text due to the mountains of evidence against it and Joseph Smith's particular talent for storytelling while dictating to scribes.