LDS Freedom Forum

larsenb wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 11:27 am

thestock wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 8:33 am

larsenb wrote: ↑September 18th, 2019, 4:23 pm There are people that see discussion forums/boards as a place to vent their opinions, again, and again and again. Then there are those who see these platforms as places where discussion, dialogue and dissemination of verifiable information, analysis and evidence, as well as logically supported ideas, can take place. I'm in the later group, and am most likely to forego searching out information allegedly contained in YouTube videos and various other URL links.

You bring up an allegation or make certain assumptions. You are responsible for supporting the allegations or assumptions with good validation. Otherwise, you are just looking for an echo chamber. May be harsh, but is also true. I see it as a kind of need to be allowed to whine about this, that and maybe everything. I have a certain amount of sympathy for the condition you find yourself in, but not much else.

I have provided countless links and references in countless threads. It is exhausting. The information is THERE if you will simply LOOK. Stop being lazy and trying to get other people to do the work for you. If you want to ignore what I am saying because it challenges your long held beliefs, then that is fine. But dont blame me for that.........that's on you.

Doesn't challenge me. I already told you where I'm coming from. I've heard what you are saying, and I've heard these allegations elsewhere, so I'm not ignoring them. I'm just not that interested to try to dig out the so-called 'corroboration' from your links. You as a poster are responsible for that.

Obviously you see yourself as being on a mission to help poor deluded believers such as myself. However, you fail in your mission by not documenting your allegations. If you've posted all these myriad references, simply give me a link to where you have done so. Simple, ts. I'll see what you can do . . . . maybe.

thestock wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 1:06 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 11:27 am

thestock wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 8:33 am

larsenb wrote: ↑September 18th, 2019, 4:23 pm There are people that see discussion forums/boards as a place to vent their opinions, again, and again and again. Then there are those who see these platforms as places where discussion, dialogue and dissemination of verifiable information, analysis and evidence, as well as logically supported ideas, can take place. I'm in the later group, and am most likely to forego searching out information allegedly contained in YouTube videos and various other URL links.

You bring up an allegation or make certain assumptions. You are responsible for supporting the allegations or assumptions with good validation. Otherwise, you are just looking for an echo chamber. May be harsh, but is also true. I see it as a kind of need to be allowed to whine about this, that and maybe everything. I have a certain amount of sympathy for the condition you find yourself in, but not much else.

I have provided countless links and references in countless threads. It is exhausting. The information is THERE if you will simply LOOK. Stop being lazy and trying to get other people to do the work for you. If you want to ignore what I am saying because it challenges your long held beliefs, then that is fine. But dont blame me for that.........that's on you.

Doesn't challenge me. I already told you where I'm coming from. I've heard what you are saying, and I've heard these allegations elsewhere, so I'm not ignoring them. I'm just not that interested to try to dig out the so-called 'corroboration' from your links. You as a poster are responsible for that.

Obviously you see yourself as being on a mission to help poor deluded believers such as myself. However, you fail in your mission by not documenting your allegations. If you've posted all these myriad references, simply give me a link to where you have done so. Simple, ts. I'll see what you can do . . . . maybe.

Huh? So now I am on a mission to make you accept what I believe? No, you have misunderstood. As I stated only 2 replies ago, my intent is not to prove to you or convince you of anything......it was simply to explain why I believe as I do. It is actually you who comes at me with the "but here's what my narrative says, so why do you believe this?" and then I respond. If you want to research my answers, that's up to you. Its not hard to do so......but if you want to feel better about yourself for ignoring what I have said, that is 100% on you and not on me. Oh sure, I could say "Go read Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History" (one of the most complete and respected Joseph Smith biographies in the whole world complete with all the references you'd ever need), but I suspect you'd simply discount the PhD female historian from 1945 as "one of those Apostates" and so you would disregard it, as you've disregarded what I say.

So tell me.....why should I cast my pearls before swine? I have said what I have said. You can either move on with your life and not care about it (as you seem to be doing), or some curiosity as to the veracity of my claims may be sparked.....and you can see for yourself what history has to say about it.

the truth is "knowledge of things as they are." If you want to think the witnesses never said what I "claimed" they said, then think that, but it wont be the truth.

larsenb wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 3:04 pm So now I'm swine? You're a funny fellow.

larsenb wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 3:04 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 1:06 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 11:27 am

thestock wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 8:33 am

I have provided countless links and references in countless threads. It is exhausting. The information is THERE if you will simply LOOK. Stop being lazy and trying to get other people to do the work for you. If you want to ignore what I am saying because it challenges your long held beliefs, then that is fine. But dont blame me for that.........that's on you.

Doesn't challenge me. I already told you where I'm coming from. I've heard what you are saying, and I've heard these allegations elsewhere, so I'm not ignoring them. I'm just not that interested to try to dig out the so-called 'corroboration' from your links. You as a poster are responsible for that.

Obviously you see yourself as being on a mission to help poor deluded believers such as myself. However, you fail in your mission by not documenting your allegations. If you've posted all these myriad references, simply give me a link to where you have done so. Simple, ts. I'll see what you can do . . . . maybe.

Huh? So now I am on a mission to make you accept what I believe? No, you have misunderstood. As I stated only 2 replies ago, my intent is not to prove to you or convince you of anything......it was simply to explain why I believe as I do. It is actually you who comes at me with the "but here's what my narrative says, so why do you believe this?" and then I respond. If you want to research my answers, that's up to you. Its not hard to do so......but if you want to feel better about yourself for ignoring what I have said, that is 100% on you and not on me. Oh sure, I could say "Go read Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History" (one of the most complete and respected Joseph Smith biographies in the whole world complete with all the references you'd ever need), but I suspect you'd simply discount the PhD female historian from 1945 as "one of those Apostates" and so you would disregard it, as you've disregarded what I say.

So tell me.....why should I cast my pearls before swine? I have said what I have said. You can either move on with your life and not care about it (as you seem to be doing), or some curiosity as to the veracity of my claims may be sparked.....and you can see for yourself what history has to say about it.

the truth is "knowledge of things as they are." If you want to think the witnesses never said what I "claimed" they said, then think that, but it wont be the truth.

So now I'm swine? You're a funny fellow. Only you can answer what particular mission you are on. This post of yours confirms to me you are on some type of mission. Have fun. But you've already explained why you believe the way you do. I get it. And no, "my feeling better about myself" has nothing to do w/interacting w/you on this blog thread. Nothing.

I see you as being in a tough position, which as I mentioned, I can sympathize with . . . to a degree; but I certainly won't be much help to you, as you should have discerned by now.

AZRob wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 3:39 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 3:04 pm So now I'm swine? You're a funny fellow.

That's a little too literal for my taste. I think Thestock is trying to tell you that he has knowledge that is characteristic of pearls, and that your unwillingness to accept what he perceives as hard-earned wisdom can be likened unto what swine might do when confronted with something inedible.

In my opinion, you shouldn't take the analogy too far. No one is expecting you'll be on the breakfast menu as a choice of ham, bacon, or sausage. Also, if the shoe fits, wear it proudly (the proverbial shoe, that is ).

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 7:42 am

larsenb wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 3:04 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 1:06 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 11:27 am
Doesn't challenge me. I already told you where I'm coming from. I've heard what you are saying, and I've heard these allegations elsewhere, so I'm not ignoring them. I'm just not that interested to try to dig out the so-called 'corroboration' from your links. You as a poster are responsible for that.

Obviously you see yourself as being on a mission to help poor deluded believers such as myself. However, you fail in your mission by not documenting your allegations. If you've posted all these myriad references, simply give me a link to where you have done so. Simple, ts. I'll see what you can do . . . . maybe.

Huh? So now I am on a mission to make you accept what I believe? No, you have misunderstood. As I stated only 2 replies ago, my intent is not to prove to you or convince you of anything......it was simply to explain why I believe as I do. It is actually you who comes at me with the "but here's what my narrative says, so why do you believe this?" and then I respond. If you want to research my answers, that's up to you. Its not hard to do so......but if you want to feel better about yourself for ignoring what I have said, that is 100% on you and not on me. Oh sure, I could say "Go read Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History" (one of the most complete and respected Joseph Smith biographies in the whole world complete with all the references you'd ever need), but I suspect you'd simply discount the PhD female historian from 1945 as "one of those Apostates" and so you would disregard it, as you've disregarded what I say.

So tell me.....why should I cast my pearls before swine? I have said what I have said. You can either move on with your life and not care about it (as you seem to be doing), or some curiosity as to the veracity of my claims may be sparked.....and you can see for yourself what history has to say about it.

the truth is "knowledge of things as they are." If you want to think the witnesses never said what I "claimed" they said, then think that, but it wont be the truth.

So now I'm swine? You're a funny fellow. Only you can answer what particular mission you are on. This post of yours confirms to me you are on some type of mission. Have fun. But you've already explained why you believe the way you do. I get it. And no, "my feeling better about myself" has nothing to do w/interacting w/you on this blog thread. Nothing.

I see you as being in a tough position, which as I mentioned, I can sympathize with . . . to a degree; but I certainly won't be much help to you, as you should have discerned by now.

No. you seem to have trouble remembering what people have said. I have told you a few times in this thread that I appreciate you and your respectful attitude. I was quoting a well-known scripture for a situation that fits well is all. And you actually did exactly as I said, I gave you a great reference and you went on the offensive. That is why the scripture fits.

Also, I dont know why you feel I am in need of your pity or help or sympathy. Nothing I have said in this thread suggests you need to feel sorry for me......unless its because you think I need your pity because I dont believe in everything you believe.....in which case, that is your problem and not mine. I am a happy and healthy family man, but thanks for the misplaced concern, I guess?

larsenb wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:09 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 7:42 am

larsenb wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 3:04 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 1:06 pm

Huh? So now I am on a mission to make you accept what I believe? No, you have misunderstood. As I stated only 2 replies ago, my intent is not to prove to you or convince you of anything......it was simply to explain why I believe as I do. It is actually you who comes at me with the "but here's what my narrative says, so why do you believe this?" and then I respond. If you want to research my answers, that's up to you. Its not hard to do so......but if you want to feel better about yourself for ignoring what I have said, that is 100% on you and not on me. Oh sure, I could say "Go read Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History" (one of the most complete and respected Joseph Smith biographies in the whole world complete with all the references you'd ever need), but I suspect you'd simply discount the PhD female historian from 1945 as "one of those Apostates" and so you would disregard it, as you've disregarded what I say.

So tell me.....why should I cast my pearls before swine? I have said what I have said. You can either move on with your life and not care about it (as you seem to be doing), or some curiosity as to the veracity of my claims may be sparked.....and you can see for yourself what history has to say about it.

the truth is "knowledge of things as they are." If you want to think the witnesses never said what I "claimed" they said, then think that, but it wont be the truth.

So now I'm swine? You're a funny fellow. Only you can answer what particular mission you are on. This post of yours confirms to me you are on some type of mission. Have fun. But you've already explained why you believe the way you do. I get it. And no, "my feeling better about myself" has nothing to do w/interacting w/you on this blog thread. Nothing.

I see you as being in a tough position, which as I mentioned, I can sympathize with . . . to a degree; but I certainly won't be much help to you, as you should have discerned by now.

No. you seem to have trouble remembering what people have said. I have told you a few times in this thread that I appreciate you and your respectful attitude. I was quoting a well-known scripture for a situation that fits well is all. And you actually did exactly as I said, I gave you a great reference and you went on the offensive. That is why the scripture fits.

Also, I dont know why you feel I am in need of your pity or help or sympathy. Nothing I have said in this thread suggests you need to feel sorry for me......unless its because you think I need your pity because I dont believe in everything you believe.....in which case, that is your problem and not mine. I am a happy and healthy family man, but thanks for the misplaced concern, I guess?

What was your great reference? Fawn McKay Brodie?? Try reading "No Ma'am, That's Not History, by Hugh Nibley, if you have any desire to get a different perspective on the woman. Anyway, its a relief to learn you're a happy and healthy family man. But if that's the case, why bother posting on an LDS forum? That indicates something is gnawing at you.

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:12 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:09 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 7:42 am

larsenb wrote: ↑September 19th, 2019, 3:04 pm
So now I'm swine? You're a funny fellow. Only you can answer what particular mission you are on. This post of yours confirms to me you are on some type of mission. Have fun. But you've already explained why you believe the way you do. I get it. And no, "my feeling better about myself" has nothing to do w/interacting w/you on this blog thread. Nothing.

I see you as being in a tough position, which as I mentioned, I can sympathize with . . . to a degree; but I certainly won't be much help to you, as you should have discerned by now.

No. you seem to have trouble remembering what people have said. I have told you a few times in this thread that I appreciate you and your respectful attitude. I was quoting a well-known scripture for a situation that fits well is all. And you actually did exactly as I said, I gave you a great reference and you went on the offensive. That is why the scripture fits.

Also, I dont know why you feel I am in need of your pity or help or sympathy. Nothing I have said in this thread suggests you need to feel sorry for me......unless its because you think I need your pity because I dont believe in everything you believe.....in which case, that is your problem and not mine. I am a happy and healthy family man, but thanks for the misplaced concern, I guess?

What was your great reference? Fawn McKay Brodie?? Try reading "No Ma'am, That's Not History, by Hugh Nibley, if you have any desire to get a different perspective on the woman. Anyway, its a relief to learn you're a happy and healthy family man. But if that's the case, why bother posting on an LDS forum? That indicates something is gnawing at you.

I would think this forum is an appropriate place for an active latter-day saint to post on?

larsenb wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:19 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:12 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:09 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 7:42 am

No. you seem to have trouble remembering what people have said. I have told you a few times in this thread that I appreciate you and your respectful attitude. I was quoting a well-known scripture for a situation that fits well is all. And you actually did exactly as I said, I gave you a great reference and you went on the offensive. That is why the scripture fits.

Also, I dont know why you feel I am in need of your pity or help or sympathy. Nothing I have said in this thread suggests you need to feel sorry for me......unless its because you think I need your pity because I dont believe in everything you believe.....in which case, that is your problem and not mine. I am a happy and healthy family man, but thanks for the misplaced concern, I guess?

What was your great reference? Fawn McKay Brodie?? Try reading "No Ma'am, That's Not History, by Hugh Nibley, if you have any desire to get a different perspective on the woman. Anyway, its a relief to learn you're a happy and healthy family man. But if that's the case, why bother posting on an LDS forum? That indicates something is gnawing at you.

I would think this forum is an appropriate place for an active latter-day saint to post on?

So you're an active LDS? But if you don't believe in the BoM, etc., etc., Why bother? Is it a social thing with you?

larsenb wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:19 pm So you're an active LDS? But if you don't believe in the BoM, etc., etc., Why bother? Is it a social thing with you?

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:25 pm I said I dont believe it was translated from a literal historical document. I still find the actual book and its teachings very valuable and I still like many things about the Church and the culture. I take the best, leave the rest. Temple recommend holder, have a calling....the whole shebang.

Believing Joseph wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:50 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:19 pm So you're an active LDS? But if you don't believe in the BoM, etc., etc., Why bother? Is it a social thing with you?

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:25 pm I said I dont believe it was translated from a literal historical document. I still find the actual book and its teachings very valuable and I still like many things about the Church and the culture. I take the best, leave the rest. Temple recommend holder, have a calling....the whole shebang.

If we've gotten to the point where holding a temple recommend is more fundamental to our religious identity than believing that Joseph Smith told the truth about the Book of Mormon, then I fear that we are placing our faith in the wrong things.

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:25 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:19 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:12 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:09 pm
What was your great reference? Fawn McKay Brodie?? Try reading "No Ma'am, That's Not History, by Hugh Nibley, if you have any desire to get a different perspective on the woman. Anyway, its a relief to learn you're a happy and healthy family man. But if that's the case, why bother posting on an LDS forum? That indicates something is gnawing at you.

I would think this forum is an appropriate place for an active latter-day saint to post on?

So you're an active LDS? But if you don't believe in the BoM, etc., etc., Why bother? Is it a social thing with you?

I said I dont believe it was translated from a literal historical document. I still find the actual book and its teachings very valuable and I still like many things about the Church and the culture. I take the best, leave the rest. Temple recommend holder, have a calling....the whole shebang.

larsenb wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 2:05 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:25 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:19 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:12 pm

I would think this forum is an appropriate place for an active latter-day saint to post on?

So you're an active LDS? But if you don't believe in the BoM, etc., etc., Why bother? Is it a social thing with you?

I said I dont believe it was translated from a literal historical document. I still find the actual book and its teachings very valuable and I still like many things about the Church and the culture. I take the best, leave the rest. Temple recommend holder, have a calling....the whole shebang.

My, my. Always fascinating to run into an end member of a behavioral spectrum. If I were in your place, however, I would have a tough time getting a temple recommend.

Always fascinating to run into an end member of a behavioral spectrum.

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:53 pm Well, sorry that it feels to y'all like I dont belong. You don't need to believe in Santa Claus to celebrate and feel the Christmas spirit.

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:53 pm

Believing Joseph wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:50 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:19 pm So you're an active LDS? But if you don't believe in the BoM, etc., etc., Why bother? Is it a social thing with you?

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:25 pm I said I dont believe it was translated from a literal historical document. I still find the actual book and its teachings very valuable and I still like many things about the Church and the culture. I take the best, leave the rest. Temple recommend holder, have a calling....the whole shebang.

If we've gotten to the point where holding a temple recommend is more fundamental to our religious identity than believing that Joseph Smith told the truth about the Book of Mormon, then I fear that we are placing our faith in the wrong things.

Well, sorry that it feels to y'all like I dont belong. You don't need to believe in Santa Claus to celebrate and feel the Christmas spirit.

Stahura wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 3:07 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:53 pm

Believing Joseph wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:50 pm

larsenb wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:19 pm So you're an active LDS? But if you don't believe in the BoM, etc., etc., Why bother? Is it a social thing with you?

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:25 pm I said I dont believe it was translated from a literal historical document. I still find the actual book and its teachings very valuable and I still like many things about the Church and the culture. I take the best, leave the rest. Temple recommend holder, have a calling....the whole shebang.

If we've gotten to the point where holding a temple recommend is more fundamental to our religious identity than believing that Joseph Smith told the truth about the Book of Mormon, then I fear that we are placing our faith in the wrong things.

Well, sorry that it feels to y'all like I dont belong. You don't need to believe in Santa Claus to celebrate and feel the Christmas spirit.

I think a better comparison would be that you don't need to believe in Jesus to feel the Christmas spirit.

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 3:44 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 3:07 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:53 pm

Believing Joseph wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:50 pm



If we've gotten to the point where holding a temple recommend is more fundamental to our religious identity than believing that Joseph Smith told the truth about the Book of Mormon, then I fear that we are placing our faith in the wrong things.

Well, sorry that it feels to y'all like I dont belong. You don't need to believe in Santa Claus to celebrate and feel the Christmas spirit.

I think a better comparison would be that you don't need to believe in Jesus to feel the Christmas spirit.

Did you just compare Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ? Yeah.....no cult mentality here. Move along.

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 3:44 pm Did you just compare Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ? Yeah.....no cult mentality here. Move along.

Stahura wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 4:10 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 3:44 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 3:07 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 1:53 pm

Well, sorry that it feels to y'all like I dont belong. You don't need to believe in Santa Claus to celebrate and feel the Christmas spirit.

I think a better comparison would be that you don't need to believe in Jesus to feel the Christmas spirit.

Did you just compare Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ? Yeah.....no cult mentality here. Move along.

lolol. Get out of here with that. You know I'm not comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ.

Plenty of people celebrate Christmas without Santa. Aint nobody celebrating Christmas without Jesus. Cause, you know, it's called CHRISTmas, not SANTAmas. Your analogy wasn't a good one. There are millions of people who celebrate Christmas whose world view has never and will never include Santa Clause, so your analogy doesn't help the point you're trying to make.

And , beyond that, if you really want to take my comment in that direction, you would have to say I'm comparing Jesus connection to Christmas to the Book of Mormon's connection to the LDS Church. Throwing Joseph Smith in there is a strawman argument, I never spoke of Joseph and the comment I followed didn't refer to Joseph either.

Not sure why you decided to pick a fight with me. I'm not anywhere near the ballpark you're claiming to have found me in.

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 4:57 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 4:10 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 3:44 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 3:07 pm

I think a better comparison would be that you don't need to believe in Jesus to feel the Christmas spirit.

Did you just compare Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ? Yeah.....no cult mentality here. Move along.

lolol. Get out of here with that. You know I'm not comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ.

Plenty of people celebrate Christmas without Santa. Aint nobody celebrating Christmas without Jesus. Cause, you know, it's called CHRISTmas, not SANTAmas. Your analogy wasn't a good one. There are millions of people who celebrate Christmas whose world view has never and will never include Santa Clause, so your analogy doesn't help the point you're trying to make.

And , beyond that, if you really want to take my comment in that direction, you would have to say I'm comparing Jesus connection to Christmas to the Book of Mormon's connection to the LDS Church. Throwing Joseph Smith in there is a strawman argument, I never spoke of Joseph and the comment I followed didn't refer to Joseph either.

Not sure why you decided to pick a fight with me. I'm not anywhere near the ballpark you're claiming to have found me in.

Ok then. Thanks for explaining.

I do admit I am a bit defensive today after thinking I was having an open and honest discussion with Brother Larsen only to find his intentions were to label me and make unfounded assumptions about my intentions.

I’ll aim to be better about keeping my heart in a neutral place about all. Thanks again.

Believing Joseph wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 4:29 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 3:44 pm Did you just compare Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ? Yeah.....no cult mentality here. Move along.

You are ducking the implications of what I actually did, which was to criticize you for comparing Joseph to Santa Claus.

If you believe that Joseph Smith was an honest man and that he really had a message from the Lord, then it isn't really possible to focus on that message too much. And if you don't believe that, then qualifying your doubts with "but I hold a temple recommend" is rather pointless.

There is nothing cultlike about comparing Joseph to Jesus in the sense that faithful Mormons believe that both of them have messages from God that people need to hear.

Or do you think that God is somehow incapable of sending an important message by the hand of anybody other than his Son?

In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you
(Doctrine and Covenants 89:4)

22 And whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed; for the Lord will not suffer that the blood of his saints, which shall be shed by them, shall always cry unto him from the ground for vengeance upon them and yet he avenge them not.
23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.
24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.
25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.
(Ether 8:22–25)

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 5:05 pmI can simultaneously believe in what Joseph intended and allow it to uplift and inspire me while also believing he embellished a great deal to achieve his ends.

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 4:57 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 4:10 pm

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 3:44 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 3:07 pm

I think a better comparison would be that you don't need to believe in Jesus to feel the Christmas spirit.

Did you just compare Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ? Yeah.....no cult mentality here. Move along.

lolol. Get out of here with that. You know I'm not comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ.

Plenty of people celebrate Christmas without Santa. Aint nobody celebrating Christmas without Jesus. Cause, you know, it's called CHRISTmas, not SANTAmas. Your analogy wasn't a good one. There are millions of people who celebrate Christmas whose world view has never and will never include Santa Clause, so your analogy doesn't help the point you're trying to make.

And , beyond that, if you really want to take my comment in that direction, you would have to say I'm comparing Jesus connection to Christmas to the Book of Mormon's connection to the LDS Church. Throwing Joseph Smith in there is a strawman argument, I never spoke of Joseph and the comment I followed didn't refer to Joseph either.

Not sure why you decided to pick a fight with me. I'm not anywhere near the ballpark you're claiming to have found me in.

Ok then. Thanks for explaining.

I do admit I am a bit defensive today after thinking I was having an open and honest discussion with Brother Larsen only to find his intentions were to label me and make unfounded assumptions about my intentions.

I’ll aim to be better about keeping my heart in a neutral place about all. Thanks again.

thestock wrote: ↑September 20th, 2019, 5:05 pm Again, please allow me to clarify an assumption here.

I am actually a huge Joseph Smith fan. Honestly, I would put my knowledge of the man and his works up against anybody. he was brilliant.

I don’t prescribe to the “all or nothing” mindset. I don’t discount and dismiss anyone who doesn’t tow whatever line I would want them to toe. Everyone is brilliant in something; everyone has weaknesses.

I can simultaneously believe in what Joseph intended and allow it to uplift and inspire me while also believing he embellished a great deal to achieve his ends. I can also believe his heart and works were built upon the rock of Christ.

It is only courtesy to wish myself to be afforded from you and others the agency to hold my own experiences, perspectives, and beliefs.

I think, mostly, I do get that here.

Friday!! Have a nice weekend.