The Servant of the Vineyard

[Alaris]

I'm loving the article so far. I'm a bit puzzled at a couple of things:

The 8th angel (The Davidic Angel) is then seated upon the throne of Adam. The Destroyer - the Angel of the Lord - is the one who is then seated upon the throne by the Father. He is the one who works the vineyard. John describes him as "He who sitteth upon the throne."

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I'm not sure I'm following you here. It appears you are saying Revelation 5:12 is referring to Abaddon. However, I believe this is referring to Jesus who is the Lamb slain. I could be missing it, but where do we have record of Abaddon being slain? I realize the two Olive branches will be slain in defending Jerusalem from the great and terrible army, but is that sacrificial? After all, there are two there who are killed. That seems like a different thing than what this verse is taking about.

I truly appreciate the questions. I'm having a rough couple of days, so there's nothing like discussing these mysteries that perks my spirits up.

I'll first answer the question as to what I'm saying and then add in what I've suggested elsewhere.

Firstly, are these two verses about Jesus or the Davidic Servant? Yes. This understanding applies to what I'm saying and also to what I've suggested.

What I'm saying is Jesus Christ is the Lamb who was slain in verse 12 ... to what end? To receive: power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. For Himself? Of course not!!! Then for whom? The answer is in the next verse: "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever"

Who "sitteth" upon the throne? The Angel of the Lord. When John gets to the point where he ties this all together, what does he do? Mystery solved.

So the achievements of Jesus Christ are first for his Heir, the Davidic heir - and then because of His heir, they are then unto Him ... and for how long? Forever and ever (Ezekiel 37.)

That's seven rewards for the seven accomplishments of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11. The primary goal & accomplishment of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is ransoming His heir. On the day of Atonement, the High Priest makes Atonement for himself, his house, then Israel. A lamb per house on Passover is a clear indication that these sacrifices (yes plural sacrifices of Saviors for their Sons) are extremely intimate / personal primarily for a person (firstborn), then their house....then everyone else. That's why passover is all about passing over the firstborn. Without Jesus, His firstborn could never ascend to his own throne and receive his everlasting name. So, yes Jesus it the firstborn of Elohim, but the Holy Ghost is becoming the firstborn of Jesus Christ. The spiritually begotten son made Holy by Jesus Christ. The...Holy ...Spirit.

And who makes Atonement for everyone else? The High Priest of Israel by the blood of the Lamb. This is literally all over the place in regards to the Holy Ghost, the Davidic Servant, and the Angel of the Lord. All three have the keys of judgement - what is judgment if not Atonement?

I realize Jesus' dominion before being born to Mary was worlds, but He still had more to receive after the atonement. We do know that Jesus received a marked difference after His resurrection, as noted by Him referring to Himself and His Father both being perfect in 3 Nephi 12:48. But He ascended to the higher level of His Father after performing His atonement, which would probably indicate a reception of more "power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing," would it not? I don't think the DS is the only being who increases through the execution of duty in this round.

I do agree that 13 refers to both, and that the 8th angel is he who sitteth upon the throne.

This will make plain, clear sense to you I'm certain: As the Lucifer sought glory for himself, how do the actual Gods contrast? Jesus couldn't stop giving glory to His father and the ends of His sacrifice are for His heir, His house, Israel, then everybody else. Is that PC? Nope. True nonetheless.

So is it any wonder that when we take a closer look at the Gods they're constantly giving glory and power elsewhere? Michael vacates his throne for crying out loud - allows someone else to rule upon it. And who is that person? What's his name? That's right we don't know! He's been pruning the vineyard in freaking anonymity.

And Jesus? What's He all about? Blessing and glory and honor and power be unto Himself? Of course not. And who are the 24 elders toe declare the lamb as "worthy?" Certainly they have no dominion to make such a declaration unless these 24 elders are higher than Jesus Christ. Unless their declaration of "worthiness" pertains to the Angel of the Lord - "The sacrifice is worthy to ransom this man permanently from manhood into an everlasting dominion of godhood.

You literally can't find a legitimate God who gives glory unto himself.

As far as what I've suggested: There are two lambs sacrificed for seven days during the levite cleansing ritual. A morning lamb and an evening lamb. An alpha (dawn) lamb and an omega (dusk) lamb. So, could Jesus and the Davidic Servant be the first and final step of this path to join the Elohim as Joseph Smith suggests in King Follett? The anointing of the Davidic Servant as the Word of God is how Jesus was first anointed.

Jesus Christ - the Anointed Savior ... Or does it mean the Savior of the Anointed?

Are the two witnesses anointed to this same end? Are they participants of the davidic covenant in that they receive the same cup and same baptism but to lesser degrees as Jesus suggested to James and John?

Reading how you talked about the jews sacrificing a lamb in the morning...and then another lamb at night, made me think of Elijah

1st Kings 17

6And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook.
---------
Anyway.... I always assumed the DS was one of the Two Witnesses. Maybe the second is the one the DS gives his glory to.

If its isnt...who do you think the DS will give his place to? Assuming, like you said, all Gods make way for an heir.


Also...do you think the DS is old, young, or unborn?

Brilliant

A sacrament at the beginning and a sacrament at the end. Very interesting and that likely points to the same symbolism.

I agree the DS is one of the two witnesses, and I believe the ceremonial disrobing of Aaron on Mount Horeb to dress his son Eleazar symbolizes the ascent of the DS whereupon the second witness is clothed. I believe the "root of Jesse" in Isaiah 11 / D&C 113 is the second witness and that is why the priesthood rightly belongs to him - that statement is one of inheritance imho. After all, the DS is ascending from priesthood to both priesthood and kinghood.

Zechariah 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Just one question - how is it your username is now lowercase??

[Valo]

Nope. The Spirit isn't Heavenly Mother. The Spirit is the Davidic Servant.

Nope, the Spirit isn't the Davidic Servant...I jest...I respect that you have your opinions...

I just think its funny that you state your opinion as some absolute fact. It's funny because the nature of the topic of the identity of the Spirit/Davidic Servant is SOOOO open to alternative interpretations and opinions. They are a dime a dozen. Cheap and mostly useless. In any case, what I see is an opinion, not a fact. No disrespect intended.

Heavenly Father is more visible because...

A: a man has been likened to the Head (and thus is more visible/has more visible leadership), while the woman has been likened to the heart (which is protected and hidden behind the ribcage, but is no less important for the functioning of the body. Side note: The heart actually has a little brain of its own).

B: because of how ancient religions worshipped her inappropriately. Google the Canaanite goddess Asherah for starters, because that's where it started as far as I know.

The logic you present with your reasons for "why HF more visible" has some issues. Let me restate your assertion:

Heavenly Father is more visible because...a man has been likened to the Head, while the woman has been likened to the heart and because of how ancient religions worshipped [Heavenly Mother] inappropriately.

The underlined part doesn't answer a "because" question. Because someone likens somebody to something doesn't answer the "Why is HF more visible than HM" question. How does the fact that humans have "likened" the Father to the Head and the Mother to the heart have any bearing on how visible Heavenly Father or Mother might be? Your response here doesn't make any sense. To be more clear, its question begging.

You second reason is logically consistent, however, I'm not sure its factual. You got anything to back up this idea outside of your assertions and opinions? Or, maybe you have some original research to present that is relevant?

Thanks!

Valo

[Alaris]

“He”?
Assuming your not one of those ones who’ve fallen for the incorrect idea that 2 dads is as good as a mother and a father, tell me what makes more sense:
*Father, Male HG and Son, or...
*Father, Mother and Son??

“As above, so below.” We are created NOT by 2 males, but by a mother and father. Before the Universal theocracy (Catholic church) corrupted it, the Holy Ghost was symbolized by a Divine Feminine dove called, Astarte or Sophia.

I can see why people come to this conclusion...women are definitely represented by a deity, but it makes no sense to me that a mother would be lower than her son in authority and position.

Why is everything “father, son and Holy Ghost”? Not “father, Holy Ghost and son”? And why would Jesus send his mother “another comforter” when he was dead?

Again, not saying women don’t have equal importance to the male godhead (or their own equivalent godhead of grandmother, mother, daughter), I just think we don’t have that information at this time. We have knowledge of exactly half of the godhead...the male half.

I think it's possible that there is no other half to talk about.

"The Father" could be the same as "The Father and Mother" but we just use the word "Father". Think of it like saying "The Smiths".
I know to us, that sounds weird. "Father" indicates it's a male, and one male we are discussing but idk. Lots of things in the scriptures make no sense at first.

The Mother has to be every bit as important as the Father in the grand scheme of things, and I personally don't think there's a need for separate "roles" and definitions to try to explain why we don't hear about her. Truth be told I have not spend an awful amount of time thinking about this, but when we pray to "God", I think we are equally praying to the Father and Mother, even if we aren't explicitly addressing the Mother, because they are one. They respond to us through their mind(the spirit), of which they both possess a fullness. If we can become one with our spouse on earth, and become in harmony, how much more exponentially can this be done in the eternities? Idk. So.. I see no need to split it up. But again, I've spent little time on the topic. Speaking out of my comfort zone right now. No idea what I'm talkin about

Good points, very much agree.

But we still no next to nothing about the female path to Goddess-hood other than “submit to your husband’s priesthood authority” and become one with him.

There has to be more of a test than that....although it would be nice to kick back and let my husband do all the work

As you know, I've found some gems in the "Gospel of Bartholomew" - apparently it was referenced as a legitimate work of the Apostle Bartholomew as early as 400 AD (wikipedia) - however, that doesn't mean it's interpolation free, so pray for the Spirit while reading

II.4 And as they all doubted and disputed, Bartholomew came near unto her with a cheerful countenance and said to her: Thou that art highly favoured, the tabernacle of the Most High, unblemished we, even all the apostles, ask thee (or All the apostles have sent me to ask thee) to tell us how thou didst conceive the incomprehensible, or how thou didst bear him that cannot be

5 But Mary said unto them: Ask me not (or Do ye indeed ask me) concerning this mystery. If I should begin to tell you, fire will issue forth out of my mouth and consume all the world.

If you read on from there (google gospel of bartholomew full text) Mary seems to have some pretty awesome power to burn up the world and fire even starts to come out of her mouth before Jesus shows up and stops the world from being destroyed.

[Robbinius]

I can see why people come to this conclusion...women are definitely represented by a deity, but it makes no sense to me that a mother would be lower than her son in authority and position.

Why is everything “father, son and Holy Ghost”? Not “father, Holy Ghost and son”? And why would Jesus send his mother “another comforter” when he was dead?

Again, not saying women don’t have equal importance to the male godhead (or their own equivalent godhead of grandmother, mother, daughter), I just think we don’t have that information at this time. We have knowledge of exactly half of the godhead...the male half.

I think it's possible that there is no other half to talk about.

"The Father" could be the same as "The Father and Mother" but we just use the word "Father". Think of it like saying "The Smiths".
I know to us, that sounds weird. "Father" indicates it's a male, and one male we are discussing but idk. Lots of things in the scriptures make no sense at first.

The Mother has to be every bit as important as the Father in the grand scheme of things, and I personally don't think there's a need for separate "roles" and definitions to try to explain why we don't hear about her. Truth be told I have not spend an awful amount of time thinking about this, but when we pray to "God", I think we are equally praying to the Father and Mother, even if we aren't explicitly addressing the Mother, because they are one. They respond to us through their mind(the spirit), of which they both possess a fullness. If we can become one with our spouse on earth, and become in harmony, how much more exponentially can this be done in the eternities? Idk. So.. I see no need to split it up. But again, I've spent little time on the topic. Speaking out of my comfort zone right now. No idea what I'm talkin about

Good points, very much agree.

But we still no next to nothing about the female path to Goddess-hood other than “submit to your husband’s priesthood authority” and become one with him.

There has to be more of a test than that....although it would be nice to kick back and let my husband do all the work

As you know, I've found some gems in the "Gospel of Bartholomew" - apparently it was referenced as a legitimate work of the Apostle Bartholomew as early as 400 AD (wikipedia) - however, that doesn't mean it's interpolation free, so pray for the Spirit while reading

II.4 And as they all doubted and disputed, Bartholomew came near unto her with a cheerful countenance and said to her: Thou that art highly favoured, the tabernacle of the Most High, unblemished we, even all the apostles, ask thee (or All the apostles have sent me to ask thee) to tell us how thou didst conceive the incomprehensible, or how thou didst bear him that cannot be

5 But Mary said unto them: Ask me not (or Do ye indeed ask me) concerning this mystery. If I should begin to tell you, fire will issue forth out of my mouth and consume all the world.

If you read on from there (google gospel of bartholomew full text) Mary seems to have some pretty awesome power to burn up the world and fire even starts to come out of her mouth before Jesus shows up and stops the world from being destroyed.

Uh, thank you for showing me where I'll be reading next...

[Kingdom of ZION]

Honestly Alaris, I think the other threads are a bit easier to engage in because they aren't bringing such massive amounts of information in every paragraph. I read every one of your posts and articles slowly multiple times and I can honestly say it's changed my life. I'm grateful and pray (literally) that you keep going. But I need some time to even respond to this post intelligently. Know what I'm saying? I doubt I'm the only one... But I imagine you want conversation a little more than "cool story. Thanks."

Seriously, this is the meat of the gospel and it doesn't get digested nearly as quickly as the milk.

Your faith is greater than mine for I can not imagine awakening to this mystery by faith alone. And, of course, some things have been hidden, intentionally so. Eventually we will all see eye to eye.

Isaiah 35:3 ¶ Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.

4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

Wow - Isaiah is truly incredible. The way of holiness is the path of the Holy Ghost. Becoming holy is how one achieves Firstborn status. That is what the term Holy Ghost / Holy Spirit means ... the spiritually begotten heir who is holy. Not perfect - but a state where condemnation ceases, and the final progression towards become a Son of Elohim begins. You could say this is the beginning of the process - becoming the Word of God / The Messenger of Salvation. The alpha step.

I'm sorry, but yet again we see things vastly different. The Way of Holiness is the title of the Highway which is cast up from the deep, and no one is allowed to walk upon that path save the returning Ten Tribes.

I think you want to see how it all goes together so badly, that you make connections that are not really there... like making a puzzle piece fit when the picture clearly does not match, but you fail to notice. Sorry, but someone needs to try and kindly say it, though you probably will strongly disagree. If you continue to work on it... in the end you will receive the understanding sought, though it will only be about you and how things apply to you personally, but the blessing of obtaining such knowledge will be there and it will help you to see the next step that you need to take. It is always a personal journey, not a path of where everyone will come into harmony and embrace the same knowledge or doctrines together.

Shalom

[Robbinius]

Whoa is that an Infinite Lines Helm I spy there Alaris? I see what you did there

[Alaris]

Honestly Alaris, I think the other threads are a bit easier to engage in because they aren't bringing such massive amounts of information in every paragraph. I read every one of your posts and articles slowly multiple times and I can honestly say it's changed my life. I'm grateful and pray (literally) that you keep going. But I need some time to even respond to this post intelligently. Know what I'm saying? I doubt I'm the only one... But I imagine you want conversation a little more than "cool story. Thanks."

Seriously, this is the meat of the gospel and it doesn't get digested nearly as quickly as the milk.

Your faith is greater than mine for I can not imagine awakening to this mystery by faith alone. And, of course, some things have been hidden, intentionally so. Eventually we will all see eye to eye.

Isaiah 35:3 ¶ Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.

4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

Wow - Isaiah is truly incredible. The way of holiness is the path of the Holy Ghost. Becoming holy is how one achieves Firstborn status. That is what the term Holy Ghost / Holy Spirit means ... the spiritually begotten heir who is holy. Not perfect - but a state where condemnation ceases, and the final progression towards become a Son of Elohim begins. You could say this is the beginning of the process - becoming the Word of God / The Messenger of Salvation. The alpha step.

I'm sorry, but yet again we see things vastly different. The Way of Holiness is the title of the Highway which is cast up from the deep, and no one is allowed to walk upon that path save the returning Ten Tribes.

I think you want to see how it all goes together so badly, that you make connections that are not really there... like making a puzzle piece fit when the picture clearly does not match, but you fail to notice. Sorry, but someone needs to try and kindly say it, though you probably will strongly disagree. If you continue to work on it... in the end you will receive the understanding sought, though it will only be about you and how things apply to you personally, but the blessing of obtaining such knowledge will be there and it will help you to see the next step that you need to take. It is always a personal journey, not a path of where everyone will come into harmony and embrace the same knowledge or doctrines together.

Shalom

The way of holiness may be the highway that appears (D&C 133) - but the ten tribes are gathered to the Holy Ghost. If being on the path to godhood requires a sojourn as Holy Ghost ... and if Israel is on the path to Godhood .... see where I'm going? The way of holiness absolutely has layers of meaning. I hear what you're saying about different levels of understanding depending on where one is at - I do. That thought keeps me up at night. However, the time is now that we are receiving a fullness of knowledge. Joel 2 is being fulfilled as men and women dream dreams. The law is being written upon the hearts of Israel ... and knowing who is gathering them and to whom they are being gathered is central in this unveiling.

[Davka]

Honestly Alaris, I think the other threads are a bit easier to engage in because they aren't bringing such massive amounts of information in every paragraph. I read every one of your posts and articles slowly multiple times and I can honestly say it's changed my life. I'm grateful and pray (literally) that you keep going. But I need some time to even respond to this post intelligently. Know what I'm saying? I doubt I'm the only one... But I imagine you want conversation a little more than "cool story. Thanks."

Seriously, this is the meat of the gospel and it doesn't get digested nearly as quickly as the milk.

Your faith is greater than mine for I can not imagine awakening to this mystery by faith alone. And, of course, some things have been hidden, intentionally so. Eventually we will all see eye to eye.

Isaiah 35:3 ¶ Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.

4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

Wow - Isaiah is truly incredible. The way of holiness is the path of the Holy Ghost. Becoming holy is how one achieves Firstborn status. That is what the term Holy Ghost / Holy Spirit means ... the spiritually begotten heir who is holy. Not perfect - but a state where condemnation ceases, and the final progression towards become a Son of Elohim begins. You could say this is the beginning of the process - becoming the Word of God / The Messenger of Salvation. The alpha step.

I'm sorry, but yet again we see things vastly different. The Way of Holiness is the title of the Highway which is cast up from the deep, and no one is allowed to walk upon that path save the returning Ten Tribes.

I think you want to see how it all goes together so badly, that you make connections that are not really there... like making a puzzle piece fit when the picture clearly does not match, but you fail to notice. Sorry, but someone needs to try and kindly say it, though you probably will strongly disagree. If you continue to work on it... in the end you will receive the understanding sought, though it will only be about you and how things apply to you personally, but the blessing of obtaining such knowledge will be there and it will help you to see the next step that you need to take. It is always a personal journey, not a path of where everyone will come into harmony and embrace the same knowledge or doctrines together.

Shalom

The way of holiness may be the highway that appears (D&C 133) - but the ten tribes are gathered to the Holy Ghost. If being on the path to godhood requires a sojourn as Holy Ghost ... and if Israel is on the path to Godhood .... see where I'm going? The way of holiness absolutely has layers of meaning. I hear what you're saying about different levels of understanding depending on where one is at - I do. That thought keeps me up at night. However, the time is now that we are receiving a fullness of knowledge. Joel 2 is being fulfilled as men and women dream dreams. The law is being written upon the hearts of Israel ... and knowing who is gathering them and to whom they are being gathered is central in this unveiling.

Your new Avatar had me really confused for a minute. Lol. I was wondering how someone else was able to register with your name.

[Davka]

I can see why people come to this conclusion...women are definitely represented by a deity, but it makes no sense to me that a mother would be lower than her son in authority and position.

Why is everything “father, son and Holy Ghost”? Not “father, Holy Ghost and son”? And why would Jesus send his mother “another comforter” when he was dead?

Again, not saying women don’t have equal importance to the male godhead (or their own equivalent godhead of grandmother, mother, daughter), I just think we don’t have that information at this time. We have knowledge of exactly half of the godhead...the male half.

I think it's possible that there is no other half to talk about.

"The Father" could be the same as "The Father and Mother" but we just use the word "Father". Think of it like saying "The Smiths".
I know to us, that sounds weird. "Father" indicates it's a male, and one male we are discussing but idk. Lots of things in the scriptures make no sense at first.

The Mother has to be every bit as important as the Father in the grand scheme of things, and I personally don't think there's a need for separate "roles" and definitions to try to explain why we don't hear about her. Truth be told I have not spend an awful amount of time thinking about this, but when we pray to "God", I think we are equally praying to the Father and Mother, even if we aren't explicitly addressing the Mother, because they are one. They respond to us through their mind(the spirit), of which they both possess a fullness. If we can become one with our spouse on earth, and become in harmony, how much more exponentially can this be done in the eternities? Idk. So.. I see no need to split it up. But again, I've spent little time on the topic. Speaking out of my comfort zone right now. No idea what I'm talkin about

Good points, very much agree.

But we still no next to nothing about the female path to Goddess-hood other than “submit to your husband’s priesthood authority” and become one with him.

There has to be more of a test than that....although it would be nice to kick back and let my husband do all the work

As you know, I've found some gems in the "Gospel of Bartholomew" - apparently it was referenced as a legitimate work of the Apostle Bartholomew as early as 400 AD (wikipedia) - however, that doesn't mean it's interpolation free, so pray for the Spirit while reading

II.4 And as they all doubted and disputed, Bartholomew came near unto her with a cheerful countenance and said to her: Thou that art highly favoured, the tabernacle of the Most High, unblemished we, even all the apostles, ask thee (or All the apostles have sent me to ask thee) to tell us how thou didst conceive the incomprehensible, or how thou didst bear him that cannot be

5 But Mary said unto them: Ask me not (or Do ye indeed ask me) concerning this mystery. If I should begin to tell you, fire will issue forth out of my mouth and consume all the world.

If you read on from there (google gospel of bartholomew full text) Mary seems to have some pretty awesome power to burn up the world and fire even starts to come out of her mouth before Jesus shows up and stops the world from being destroyed.

I knew I liked Mary!

In all seriousness, I find it interesting that she answers their question by telling them what a great mystery it is. This connects to the introduction of the ordinance of the Red Heifer, where the word used connotes a great, incomprehensible mystery.

[Michael Sherwin]

I think it's possible that there is no other half to talk about.

"The Father" could be the same as "The Father and Mother" but we just use the word "Father". Think of it like saying "The Smiths".
I know to us, that sounds weird. "Father" indicates it's a male, and one male we are discussing but idk. Lots of things in the scriptures make no sense at first.

The Mother has to be every bit as important as the Father in the grand scheme of things, and I personally don't think there's a need for separate "roles" and definitions to try to explain why we don't hear about her. Truth be told I have not spend an awful amount of time thinking about this, but when we pray to "God", I think we are equally praying to the Father and Mother, even if we aren't explicitly addressing the Mother, because they are one. They respond to us through their mind(the spirit), of which they both possess a fullness. If we can become one with our spouse on earth, and become in harmony, how much more exponentially can this be done in the eternities? Idk. So.. I see no need to split it up. But again, I've spent little time on the topic. Speaking out of my comfort zone right now. No idea what I'm talkin about

Good points, very much agree.

But we still no next to nothing about the female path to Goddess-hood other than “submit to your husband’s priesthood authority” and become one with him.

There has to be more of a test than that....although it would be nice to kick back and let my husband do all the work

As you know, I've found some gems in the "Gospel of Bartholomew" - apparently it was referenced as a legitimate work of the Apostle Bartholomew as early as 400 AD (wikipedia) - however, that doesn't mean it's interpolation free, so pray for the Spirit while reading

II.4 And as they all doubted and disputed, Bartholomew came near unto her with a cheerful countenance and said to her: Thou that art highly favoured, the tabernacle of the Most High, unblemished we, even all the apostles, ask thee (or All the apostles have sent me to ask thee) to tell us how thou didst conceive the incomprehensible, or how thou didst bear him that cannot be

5 But Mary said unto them: Ask me not (or Do ye indeed ask me) concerning this mystery. If I should begin to tell you, fire will issue forth out of my mouth and consume all the world.

If you read on from there (google gospel of bartholomew full text) Mary seems to have some pretty awesome power to burn up the world and fire even starts to come out of her mouth before Jesus shows up and stops the world from being destroyed.

I knew I liked Mary!

In all seriousness, I find it interesting that she answers their question by telling them what a great mystery it is. This connects to the introduction of the ordinance of the Red Heifer, where the word used connotes a great, incomprehensible mystery.

There is a mystery that I have not revealed yet. We are not fully here on this earth. We are only avatars of our greater selves which are in heaven. Our greater selves are in a deep sleep in heaven. I know this from direct revelation from the Spirit. I can't prove it in scripture. I can only point to some related scriptures.

2Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Our house in heaven is our tabernacle there. It is eternal in the heavens. When we are there we are clothed upon by it. It is our body. Jesus also was just an avatar of his greater self when he was here.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

And we will be like Jesus.

1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Since we will be like Jesus and Jesus was clothed upon by the Father's own self, Jesus' greater self, we will be clothed upon by our greater self.

I think that this is the fifth edit, lol. I will reveal the hidden meaning of one of Jesus' parables.

Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

What can be taken away is our tabernacle which is in heaven. A wonderful body was ours in heaven. It was given to us by God. Depending on how we live our lives our tabernacle can be added to and made even more glorious or it can be taken away.

[nightlight]

I'm loving the article so far. I'm a bit puzzled at a couple of things:

The 8th angel (The Davidic Angel) is then seated upon the throne of Adam. The Destroyer - the Angel of the Lord - is the one who is then seated upon the throne by the Father. He is the one who works the vineyard. John describes him as "He who sitteth upon the throne."

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I'm not sure I'm following you here. It appears you are saying Revelation 5:12 is referring to Abaddon. However, I believe this is referring to Jesus who is the Lamb slain. I could be missing it, but where do we have record of Abaddon being slain? I realize the two Olive branches will be slain in defending Jerusalem from the great and terrible army, but is that sacrificial? After all, there are two there who are killed. That seems like a different thing than what this verse is taking about.

I truly appreciate the questions. I'm having a rough couple of days, so there's nothing like discussing these mysteries that perks my spirits up.

I'll first answer the question as to what I'm saying and then add in what I've suggested elsewhere.

Firstly, are these two verses about Jesus or the Davidic Servant? Yes. This understanding applies to what I'm saying and also to what I've suggested.

What I'm saying is Jesus Christ is the Lamb who was slain in verse 12 ... to what end? To receive: power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. For Himself? Of course not!!! Then for whom? The answer is in the next verse: "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever"

Who "sitteth" upon the throne? The Angel of the Lord. When John gets to the point where he ties this all together, what does he do? Mystery solved.

So the achievements of Jesus Christ are first for his Heir, the Davidic heir - and then because of His heir, they are then unto Him ... and for how long? Forever and ever (Ezekiel 37.)

That's seven rewards for the seven accomplishments of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11. The primary goal & accomplishment of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is ransoming His heir. On the day of Atonement, the High Priest makes Atonement for himself, his house, then Israel. A lamb per house on Passover is a clear indication that these sacrifices (yes plural sacrifices of Saviors for their Sons) are extremely intimate / personal primarily for a person (firstborn), then their house....then everyone else. That's why passover is all about passing over the firstborn. Without Jesus, His firstborn could never ascend to his own throne and receive his everlasting name. So, yes Jesus it the firstborn of Elohim, but the Holy Ghost is becoming the firstborn of Jesus Christ. The spiritually begotten son made Holy by Jesus Christ. The...Holy ...Spirit.

And who makes Atonement for everyone else? The High Priest of Israel by the blood of the Lamb. This is literally all over the place in regards to the Holy Ghost, the Davidic Servant, and the Angel of the Lord. All three have the keys of judgement - what is judgment if not Atonement?

I realize Jesus' dominion before being born to Mary was worlds, but He still had more to receive after the atonement. We do know that Jesus received a marked difference after His resurrection, as noted by Him referring to Himself and His Father both being perfect in 3 Nephi 12:48. But He ascended to the higher level of His Father after performing His atonement, which would probably indicate a reception of more "power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing," would it not? I don't think the DS is the only being who increases through the execution of duty in this round.

I do agree that 13 refers to both, and that the 8th angel is he who sitteth upon the throne.

This will make plain, clear sense to you I'm certain: As the Lucifer sought glory for himself, how do the actual Gods contrast? Jesus couldn't stop giving glory to His father and the ends of His sacrifice are for His heir, His house, Israel, then everybody else. Is that PC? Nope. True nonetheless.

So is it any wonder that when we take a closer look at the Gods they're constantly giving glory and power elsewhere? Michael vacates his throne for crying out loud - allows someone else to rule upon it. And who is that person? What's his name? That's right we don't know! He's been pruning the vineyard in freaking anonymity.

And Jesus? What's He all about? Blessing and glory and honor and power be unto Himself? Of course not. And who are the 24 elders toe declare the lamb as "worthy?" Certainly they have no dominion to make such a declaration unless these 24 elders are higher than Jesus Christ. Unless their declaration of "worthiness" pertains to the Angel of the Lord - "The sacrifice is worthy to ransom this man permanently from manhood into an everlasting dominion of godhood.

You literally can't find a legitimate God who gives glory unto himself.

As far as what I've suggested: There are two lambs sacrificed for seven days during the levite cleansing ritual. A morning lamb and an evening lamb. An alpha (dawn) lamb and an omega (dusk) lamb. So, could Jesus and the Davidic Servant be the first and final step of this path to join the Elohim as Joseph Smith suggests in King Follett? The anointing of the Davidic Servant as the Word of God is how Jesus was first anointed.

Jesus Christ - the Anointed Savior ... Or does it mean the Savior of the Anointed?

Are the two witnesses anointed to this same end? Are they participants of the davidic covenant in that they receive the same cup and same baptism but to lesser degrees as Jesus suggested to James and John?

Reading how you talked about the jews sacrificing a lamb in the morning...and then another lamb at night, made me think of Elijah

1st Kings 17

6And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook.
---------
Anyway.... I always assumed the DS was one of the Two Witnesses. Maybe the second is the one the DS gives his glory to.

If its isnt...who do you think the DS will give his place to? Assuming, like you said, all Gods make way for an heir.


Also...do you think the DS is old, young, or unborn?

Brilliant

A sacrament at the beginning and a sacrament at the end. Very interesting and that likely points to the same symbolism.

I agree the DS is one of the two witnesses, and I believe the ceremonial disrobing of Aaron on Mount Horeb to dress his son Eleazar symbolizes the ascent of the DS whereupon the second witness is clothed. I believe the "root of Jesse" in Isaiah 11 / D&C 113 is the second witness and that is why the priesthood rightly belongs to him - that statement is one of inheritance imho. After all, the DS is ascending from priesthood to both priesthood and kinghood.

Zechariah 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Just one question - how is it your username is now lowercase??

Speaking of names ..... IMO, the Angel of the Lord, who represents/head the Holy Ghost, is not named because he represent the Holy Ghost...which is the collective effort of us. Imo, all who's names are written in the Book of Life..... are the Holy Ghost. This,imo, is why he won't allow personal worship, unlike Christ.......... who allows us to personally worship Him.

I love/appreciate your scripture research/work! You have inspired me to dive into the Old Testament...it's different than I thought it would be. It's like the old is making a full round to the now! Once I feel I've got a better grip on the OT, I'll be able to go at Isaiah harder and more equipped

When do think we (average members) will be made aware of the DS? Do you think he'll be revealed when the saints are under bondage, like D&C eludes to?

To be honest. ...this all sounds ridiculous to me...that some guy like Moses, parts the bloody sea...that will be America, and leads the Saints out!? It's even more ridiculous to think a mini Jesus is coming.
But...one can't deny this is in the scriptures.

Also, I fully believe it will be Jesus who comes in the cloud, and the DS will be the last to be lifted up for the Burning.

Weird stuff, bro...

[Alaris]

Speaking of names ..... IMO, the Angel of the Lord, who represents/head the Holy Ghost, is not named because he represent the Holy Ghost...which is the collective effort of us. Imo, all who's names are written in the Book of Life..... are the Holy Ghost. This,imo, is why he won't allow personal worship, unlike Christ.......... who allows us to personally worship Him.

I love/appreciate your scripture research/work! You have inspired me to dive into the Old Testament...it's different than I thought it would be. It's like the old is making a full round to the now! Once I feel I've got a better grip on the OT, I'll be able to go at Isaiah harder and more equipped

Thank you! I'm sure you will pay close attention to the mentions of the Angel of the Lord and the ordinances.

When do think we (average members) will be made aware of the DS? Do you think he'll be revealed when the saints are under bondage, like D&C eludes to?

I really don't know, though I will admit I should focus my studies here. "When" is so taboo in my mind and why so many have a blind understanding of the end times because they've neglected "who, what, where, and why."

To be honest. ...this all sounds ridiculous to me...that some guy like Moses, parts the bloody sea...that will be America, and leads the Saints out!? It's even more ridiculous to think a mini Jesus is coming.
But...one can't deny this is in the scriptures.

Yet the Lord said ZION must be redeemed in this manner. Might this end times Moses be important? Though it may be difficult to see how we could be persecuted in short order, consider how Trump has shined a bright light on just how much overt, in-your-face corruption there is in our own government. We're a finger's snap away from gun confiscation and all that follows.

Also, I fully believe it will be Jesus who comes in the cloud, and the DS will be the last to be lifted up for the Burning.

Despite it all (this thread, the many articles, and the sacred experiences I've never shared publicly) this was extremely hard for me to let go of, so I won't even begin to try to persuade you here. I can't imagine having come to this understanding by some other means. I'll just ask you keep an open mind here and let the spirit guide. Also, consider Joseph Smith's inspired version of Matthew begins with the final verse of the prior chapter - "Ye shall not see me again until ye shall say blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord and all the holy angels with him." That's about as clearly "not Jesus" as can be - especially for we members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who know Jesus won't come in His own name.

OK ... so a little persuasion

Weird stuff, bro...

Isaiah 28:21 For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

[Kingdom of ZION]

I can see why people come to this conclusion...women are definitely represented by a deity, but it makes no sense to me that a mother would be lower than her son in authority and position.

Why is everything “father, son and Holy Ghost”? Not “father, Holy Ghost and son”? And why would Jesus send his mother “another comforter” when he was dead?

Again, not saying women don’t have equal importance to the male godhead (or their own equivalent godhead of grandmother, mother, daughter), I just think we don’t have that information at this time. We have knowledge of exactly half of the godhead...the male half.

Tradition is strong - makes anything seem true because it’s all many have known (or thought they knew) for centuries.

• E.g.:“The first chapter of Matthew traces Jesus' lineage through his father Joseph back to King David through something like 18 generations. But as we know, Jesus was born through the agency of the Holy Spirit meaning that Joseph did not impregnate his mother, the Virgin Mary.”

That’s taking the (unfortunately usual) literal approach. I believe that except when it is obviously literal (like thou shalt not kill etc), “without a parable spake he NOT unto them.” Jesus wasn’t the type to share his birth story just so we all could adore him and celebrate his birthday. His story was a parable to teach spiritual truths like the significance and miracle of being born physically and spiritually, and how we ALL are sons and daughters of God.

I believe that Heavenly Father (Intelligent Design) and Heavenly Mother (the Spirit) are so intertwined as to be inseparably connected and related. They work together as One. You know the story, “Wizard of Oz”? Symbolism in that reflects the 3 main Divine principles:
*Brain (Intelligent Design: Heavenly Father)
*Heart (Spirit: Heavenly Mother)
*Courage (Love/Exercising Free Will to do what’s right: Son of God)

Interesting idea, I do appreciate your thoughts. I have no problem looking at this figuratively, but the fact of the matter is that the Godhead is hierarchal, and the Son is below the Father and the Holy Ghost is below the Son. The temple endowment also depicts a patriarchal order. Women are conspicuously absent in these lines. So we can conclude it’s because a) women don’t matter b) it’s all so figurative that we just missed that there was a woman there all along or c) we only have the male side of the story. I go with B, as this is in line with my personal experiences and understanding, and is actually quite clear in the scriptures.

It actually seems more limited to me to think that women *must* represent the heart and men *must* represent the intelligence. I think the Wizard of Oz idea is...cute...but I’d rather learn about the character of God from the scriptures than Mr. Baum.

Of course there is more depth to the nativity story than most people realize, but I just don’t see a correlation between Mary and the Holy Ghost. Not to mention that that’s a rather awkward triangle when you bring Joseph into the picture. I would contend that the story of Jesus’ birth teaches us about one of the rungs in the ladder that women climb to become Heavenly Mothers...successfully raising a Savior to redeem all those Spirit babies. The mystery lies in what rung of the male ladder is on the equivalent level as Mary? God the Father? Her Son, Jesus? Or someone else?

The purpose of this life is to become like our father (and mother) in heaven. There’s a reason we learn about all these scripture characters...they show how to act and what to do so that we can someday do it. Just like a child watching as their older siblings graduate high school, go to college, get married, have their own family and...become like mom and dad.

We’re pretty much on agreement as far as Heavenly Mother & Feminine Divinity. Personally, I’m finding the need to establish faith in a more healthy Mother - to heal.

The question still up is the supposed hierarchical order of the Godhead. It seems (though I could be mistaken) that the Catholic church took the apparent/literal chronological order. In their dogma, God came first, then the Son, then the Son sent the Comforter. Yet...did the Holy Spirit dwell with believers before that?

• Yes! Believers before the Pentecost (outpouring of the Spirit) did experience the Spirit...
  Believers were...
  1) Conscious of God’s Spirit as the Creator & Sustainer of their natural life. Job33:4, Psalm 104
  2) Experienced the “new birth & indwelling of the Holy Spirit.” Romans 8:7-9, John 3:10 (Christ explaining his teaching is not new)
  3) Enjoyed the constant presence of God’s Spirit. Psalm 139:7
  4) Experienced the Spirit as “their Counselor & Teacher.” Nehemiah 9:20,30
  5) Believed craftsmanship & artistic ability in the service of God was a gift of the Holy Spirit. Exodus 31:1-5
  6) Experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit as a power to denounce evil and declare righteousness. Micah 3:8
  7) Saw victory over fear by the presence of the Spirit. Haggai 2:5, Zechariah 4:6
  8) Experienced extraordinary feats of power to help them. Judges 14:6, 15:14
  9) The Spirit enabled some with ability to interpret God’s revelation in dreams. Acts 2:17
  10) The Holy Spirit gave some the gift of prophecy. Numbers 11:25, 29, Corinthians 12-14
  https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/ho ... -pentecost

So, no matter how the Catholic church has set up centuries old tradition, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (or The Father and Spirit) work together and are not higher or lower than the other. The Son, though, & all of us sons and daughters of God are as you explained, following after God.

Another consideration is that the Pentecost was said to be for ALL - including us. So, if the Spirit was so strong before the outpouring of the Spirit (as the above 10 points show)... how much stronger can it be with us!!

The Holy Ghost was from thew beginning with man... the Messiah said He was going that the Father might send Another Comforter... the Holy Spirit. Yes there is a lot of inner changing uses of these two titles, but that does not change that there is actually a real difference. They talk about Resurrection as that is the only path... when in fact, it is actually Born Again for the most part. That does not make the scriptures untrue because of poor translation or faulty understandings of the original speaker of the word.

For what is it worth...

[Thinker]

Tradition is strong - makes anything seem true because it’s all many have known (or thought they knew) for centuries.

• E.g.:“The first chapter of Matthew traces Jesus' lineage through his father Joseph back to King David through something like 18 generations. But as we know, Jesus was born through the agency of the Holy Spirit meaning that Joseph did not impregnate his mother, the Virgin Mary.”

That’s taking the (unfortunately usual) literal approach. I believe that except when it is obviously literal (like thou shalt not kill etc), “without a parable spake he NOT unto them.” Jesus wasn’t the type to share his birth story just so we all could adore him and celebrate his birthday. His story was a parable to teach spiritual truths like the significance and miracle of being born physically and spiritually, and how we ALL are sons and daughters of God.

I believe that Heavenly Father (Intelligent Design) and Heavenly Mother (the Spirit) are so intertwined as to be inseparably connected and related. They work together as One. You know the story, “Wizard of Oz”? Symbolism in that reflects the 3 main Divine principles:
*Brain (Intelligent Design: Heavenly Father)
*Heart (Spirit: Heavenly Mother)
*Courage (Love/Exercising Free Will to do what’s right: Son of God)

Interesting idea, I do appreciate your thoughts. I have no problem looking at this figuratively, but the fact of the matter is that the Godhead is hierarchal, and the Son is below the Father and the Holy Ghost is below the Son. The temple endowment also depicts a patriarchal order. Women are conspicuously absent in these lines. So we can conclude it’s because a) women don’t matter b) it’s all so figurative that we just missed that there was a woman there all along or c) we only have the male side of the story. I go with B, as this is in line with my personal experiences and understanding, and is actually quite clear in the scriptures.

It actually seems more limited to me to think that women *must* represent the heart and men *must* represent the intelligence. I think the Wizard of Oz idea is...cute...but I’d rather learn about the character of God from the scriptures than Mr. Baum.

Of course there is more depth to the nativity story than most people realize, but I just don’t see a correlation between Mary and the Holy Ghost. Not to mention that that’s a rather awkward triangle when you bring Joseph into the picture. I would contend that the story of Jesus’ birth teaches us about one of the rungs in the ladder that women climb to become Heavenly Mothers...successfully raising a Savior to redeem all those Spirit babies. The mystery lies in what rung of the male ladder is on the equivalent level as Mary? God the Father? Her Son, Jesus? Or someone else?

The purpose of this life is to become like our father (and mother) in heaven. There’s a reason we learn about all these scripture characters...they show how to act and what to do so that we can someday do it. Just like a child watching as their older siblings graduate high school, go to college, get married, have their own family and...become like mom and dad.

We’re pretty much on agreement as far as Heavenly Mother & Feminine Divinity. Personally, I’m finding the need to establish faith in a more healthy Mother - to heal.

The question still up is the supposed hierarchical order of the Godhead. It seems (though I could be mistaken) that the Catholic church took the apparent/literal chronological order. In their dogma, God came first, then the Son, then the Son sent the Comforter. Yet...did the Holy Spirit dwell with believers before that?

• Yes! Believers before the Pentecost (outpouring of the Spirit) did experience the Spirit...
  Believers were...
  1) Conscious of God’s Spirit as the Creator & Sustainer of their natural life. Job33:4, Psalm 104
  2) Experienced the “new birth & indwelling of the Holy Spirit.” Romans 8:7-9, John 3:10 (Christ explaining his teaching is not new)
  3) Enjoyed the constant presence of God’s Spirit. Psalm 139:7
  4) Experienced the Spirit as “their Counselor & Teacher.” Nehemiah 9:20,30
  5) Believed craftsmanship & artistic ability in the service of God was a gift of the Holy Spirit. Exodus 31:1-5
  6) Experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit as a power to denounce evil and declare righteousness. Micah 3:8
  7) Saw victory over fear by the presence of the Spirit. Haggai 2:5, Zechariah 4:6
  8) Experienced extraordinary feats of power to help them. Judges 14:6, 15:14
  9) The Spirit enabled some with ability to interpret God’s revelation in dreams. Acts 2:17
  10) The Holy Spirit gave some the gift of prophecy. Numbers 11:25, 29, Corinthians 12-14
  https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/ho ... -pentecost

So, no matter how the Catholic church has set up centuries old tradition, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (or The Father and Spirit) work together and are not higher or lower than the other. The Son, though, & all of us sons and daughters of God are as you explained, following after God.

Another consideration is that the Pentecost was said to be for ALL - including us. So, if the Spirit was so strong before the outpouring of the Spirit (as the above 10 points show)... how much stronger can it be with us!!

The Holy Ghost was from thew beginning with man... the Messiah said He was going that the Father might send Another Comforter... the Holy Spirit. Yes there is a lot of inner changing uses of these two titles, but that does not change that there is actually a real difference. They talk about Resurrection as that is the only path... when in fact, it is actually Born Again for the most part. That does not make the scriptures untrue because of poor translation or faulty understandings of the original speaker of the word.

For what is it worth...

Yeah, maybe “a rose by any other name would smell as sweet” yet words are powerful! And how we define God and the Spirit does affect us!

It seems we (not just our church but many religions) have neglected a major part of God. I’m not for the extreme feminist evil, but I wonder if it is in part a subconscious attempt to correct that. And now it’s gone to the other extreme in imbalance.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Interesting idea, I do appreciate your thoughts. I have no problem looking at this figuratively, but the fact of the matter is that the Godhead is hierarchal, and the Son is below the Father and the Holy Ghost is below the Son. The temple endowment also depicts a patriarchal order. Women are conspicuously absent in these lines. So we can conclude it’s because a) women don’t matter b) it’s all so figurative that we just missed that there was a woman there all along or c) we only have the male side of the story. I go with B, as this is in line with my personal experiences and understanding, and is actually quite clear in the scriptures.

It actually seems more limited to me to think that women *must* represent the heart and men *must* represent the intelligence. I think the Wizard of Oz idea is...cute...but I’d rather learn about the character of God from the scriptures than Mr. Baum.

Of course there is more depth to the nativity story than most people realize, but I just don’t see a correlation between Mary and the Holy Ghost. Not to mention that that’s a rather awkward triangle when you bring Joseph into the picture. I would contend that the story of Jesus’ birth teaches us about one of the rungs in the ladder that women climb to become Heavenly Mothers...successfully raising a Savior to redeem all those Spirit babies. The mystery lies in what rung of the male ladder is on the equivalent level as Mary? God the Father? Her Son, Jesus? Or someone else?

The purpose of this life is to become like our father (and mother) in heaven. There’s a reason we learn about all these scripture characters...they show how to act and what to do so that we can someday do it. Just like a child watching as their older siblings graduate high school, go to college, get married, have their own family and...become like mom and dad.

We’re pretty much on agreement as far as Heavenly Mother & Feminine Divinity. Personally, I’m finding the need to establish faith in a more healthy Mother - to heal.

The question still up is the supposed hierarchical order of the Godhead. It seems (though I could be mistaken) that the Catholic church took the apparent/literal chronological order. In their dogma, God came first, then the Son, then the Son sent the Comforter. Yet...did the Holy Spirit dwell with believers before that?

• Yes! Believers before the Pentecost (outpouring of the Spirit) did experience the Spirit...
  Believers were...
  1) Conscious of God’s Spirit as the Creator & Sustainer of their natural life. Job33:4, Psalm 104
  2) Experienced the “new birth & indwelling of the Holy Spirit.” Romans 8:7-9, John 3:10 (Christ explaining his teaching is not new)
  3) Enjoyed the constant presence of God’s Spirit. Psalm 139:7
  4) Experienced the Spirit as “their Counselor & Teacher.” Nehemiah 9:20,30
  5) Believed craftsmanship & artistic ability in the service of God was a gift of the Holy Spirit. Exodus 31:1-5
  6) Experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit as a power to denounce evil and declare righteousness. Micah 3:8
  7) Saw victory over fear by the presence of the Spirit. Haggai 2:5, Zechariah 4:6
  8) Experienced extraordinary feats of power to help them. Judges 14:6, 15:14
  9) The Spirit enabled some with ability to interpret God’s revelation in dreams. Acts 2:17
  10) The Holy Spirit gave some the gift of prophecy. Numbers 11:25, 29, Corinthians 12-14
  https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/ho ... -pentecost

So, no matter how the Catholic church has set up centuries old tradition, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (or The Father and Spirit) work together and are not higher or lower than the other. The Son, though, & all of us sons and daughters of God are as you explained, following after God.

Another consideration is that the Pentecost was said to be for ALL - including us. So, if the Spirit was so strong before the outpouring of the Spirit (as the above 10 points show)... how much stronger can it be with us!!

The Holy Ghost was from the beginning with man... the Messiah said He was going that the Father might send Another Comforter... the Holy Spirit. Yes there is a lot of inner changing uses of these two titles, but that does not change that there is actually a real difference. They talk about Resurrection as that is the only path... when in fact, it is actually Born Again for the most part. That does not make the scriptures untrue because of poor translation or faulty understandings of the original speaker of the word.

For what is it worth...

Yeah, maybe “a rose by any other name would smell as sweet” yet words are powerful! And how we define God and the Spirit does affect us!

It seems we (not just our church but many religions) have neglected a major part of God. I’m not for the extreme feminist evil, but I wonder if it is in part a subconscious attempt to correct that. And now it’s gone to the other extreme in imbalance.

Words are powerful but we have no control over those choosing these words or those who are translating them.

I do not feel G_d has neglected anything that is important for salvation or needful to know! If He has not told us about something in heaven, it aught not to be speculated about or defiled by our most likely inaccurate guesses. If there is a purpose as to why womankind, their part, callings, or status is not revealed... for millenniums. All these want-to-be prophets and prophetess should leave it alone until the Father sees fit to reveal such through a Holy Anointed.

[Thinker]

Words are powerful but we have no control over those choosing these words or those who are translating them.

I do not feel G_d has neglected anything that is important for salvation or needful to know! If He has not told us about something in heaven, it aught not to be speculated about or defiled by our most likely inaccurate guesses. It there is a purpose as to why womankind, their part, callings, or status is not revealed... for millenniums. All these want-to-be prophets and prophetess should leave it alone until the Father sees fit to reveal such through a Holy Anointed.

We do have some control over words! It may be one of the few things we have control over. The word, “God” is considered by many to bring to mind ideas of a tyrannical grandpa in the sky. For this reason, some have rejected anything to do with God. Atheism is based on strawman logical fallacy - taking the most ridiculous idea of God, shooting it down, while ignoring most of the +800 definitions in the bible and more in other religions. I have suggested focusing on healthier ideas of God - like Truth, Love and highest GOoD.

Jordan Peterson suggested that the WORD is what allows us to turn chaos into order. This is why free speech is so important to progress - we all think and say stupid words at times - but often the stupidity of them isn’t discovered until they’re expressed. Sometimes it’s just hearing it myself - and sometimes others know more and help me learn better - to know when I’ve been mistaken. We all need this - yet it’s lacking in our church, which shames and punishes any WORDS that threaten leaders - even if they’re based in truth and God.

God is a God of TRUTH - so seeking and worshipping God should not involve fearing & avoiding truth. Paul Tillech suggested the challenge is not to prove God - since everyone worships something - and thereby proves some false god (aka “ultimate concern”). The real challenge is to worship the type of ultimate concern that has the least idolatry. This means, always being open to learning more - never getting stuck on lower ideas of God than those which we are capable to understand and prioritize.

If God is our Creator - God is as Feminine as Masculine, no matter if “the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.” A true principle is “there must needs be opposition in all things” - especially how religious leaders going back to Catholicism especially, have warped ideas of God to prevent many from looking to God instead of them.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Words are powerful but we have no control over those choosing these words or those who are translating them.

I do not feel G_d has neglected anything that is important for salvation or needful to know! If He has not told us about something in heaven, it aught not to be speculated about or defiled by our most likely inaccurate guesses. It there is a purpose as to why womankind, their part, callings, or status is not revealed... for millenniums. All these want-to-be prophets and prophetess should leave it alone until the Father sees fit to reveal such through a Holy Anointed.

We do have some control over words! It may be one of the few things we have control over. The word, “God” is considered by many to bring to mind ideas of a tyrannical grandpa in the sky. For this reason, some have rejected anything to do with God. Atheism is based on strawman logical fallacy - taking the most ridiculous idea of God, shooting it down, while ignoring most of the +800 definitions in the bible and more in other religions. I have suggested focusing on healthier ideas of God - like Truth, Love and highest GOoD.

Jordan Peterson suggested that the WORD is what allows us to turn chaos into order. This is why free speech is so important to progress - we all think and say stupid words at times - but often the stupidity of them isn’t discovered until they’re expressed. Sometimes it’s just hearing it myself - and sometimes others know more and help me learn better - to know when I’ve been mistaken. We all need this - yet it’s lacking in our church, which shames and punishes any WORDS that threaten leaders - even if they’re based in truth and God.

God is a God of TRUTH - so seeking and worshipping God should not involve fearing & avoiding truth. Paul Tillech suggested the challenge is not to prove God - since everyone worships something - and thereby proves some false god (aka “ultimate concern”). The real challenge is to worship the type of ultimate concern that has the least idolatry. This means, always being open to learning more - never getting stuck on lower ideas of God than those which we are capable to understand and prioritize.

If God is our Creator - God is as Feminine as Masculine, no matter if “the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.” A true principle is “there must needs be opposition in all things” - especially how religious leaders going back to Catholicism especially, have warped ideas of God to prevent many from looking to God instead of them.

You certainly do have power over the words you use... it is the meaning of a word and how it changes. What a person said cannot be unsaid unless forgotten, and over time, it is made into whatever the next generation happens to do with it. I have only been speaking to the use of words found in the scriptures, not language in general.

G_d's opposite is the adversary or devil. Both are male, and I do not see the feminine in the written word when speaking of deity. Knowing that something must exist because it exist here does not prove what is there. I believe that heaven is made up almost totally of females, and where males are a rarity. However, that does not proof it is so, and the scriptures do not confirm this.

[Thinker]

G_d's opposite is the adversary or devil. Both are male, and I do not see the feminine in the written word when speeding of deity. Knowing that something must exist because it exist here does not prove what is there. I believe that heaven is made up of almost totally of females, and where males are a rarity. However, that does not proof it is so, and the scriptures do not confirm this.

I don’t trust the scriptures completely. They have a lot of wisdom and truth, but they’re written, edited, cherry-picked and translated by many imperfect people. I trust more in God and my God-given ability to reason and spiritually discern. I exist by the union of a mother and father - both played essential rolls in my conception. “As above so below” (that was one of the cherry-picked out scriptures ).