The Servant of the Vineyard

[Thinker]

The Servant of the Vineyard is The Holy Ghost...

These are all the same person - the heir to the Davidic Covenant. He is the one who has been pruning, digging, nourishing, and destroying the dead branches by casting them into the fire; and, the servant is the one who leads the gathering of fruit of the vineyard at the end. The servant is not "The Prophet." He is the Angel of the Lord.

...But which Father...?

“He”?
Assuming your not one of those ones who’ve fallen for the incorrect idea that 2 dads is as good as a mother and a father, tell me what makes more sense:
*Father, Male HG and Son, or...
*Father, Mother and Son??

“As above, so below.” We are created NOT by 2 males, but by a mother and father. Before the Universal theocracy (Catholic church) corrupted it, the Holy Ghost was symbolized by a Divine Feminine dove called, Astarte or Sophia.

[Davka]

The Servant of the Vineyard is The Holy Ghost...

These are all the same person - the heir to the Davidic Covenant. He is the one who has been pruning, digging, nourishing, and destroying the dead branches by casting them into the fire; and, the servant is the one who leads the gathering of fruit of the vineyard at the end. The servant is not "The Prophet." He is the Angel of the Lord.

“He”?
Assuming your not one of those ones who’ve fallen for the incorrect idea that 2 dads is as good as a mother and a father, tell me what makes more sense:
*Father, Male HG and Son, or...
*Father, Mother and Son??

“As above, so below.” We are created NOT by 2 males, but by a mother and father. Before the Universal theocracy (Catholic church) corrupted it, the Holy Ghost was symbolized by a Divine Feminine dove called, Astarte or Sophia.

I can see why people come to this conclusion...women are definitely represented by a deity, but it makes no sense to me that a mother would be lower than her son in authority and position.

Why is everything “father, son and Holy Ghost”? Not “father, Holy Ghost and son”? And why would Jesus send his mother “another comforter” when he was dead?

Again, not saying women don’t have equal importance to the male godhead (or their own equivalent godhead of grandmother, mother, daughter), I just think we don’t have that information at this time. We have knowledge of exactly half of the godhead...the male half.

[Thinker]

The Servant of the Vineyard is The Holy Ghost...

These are all the same person - the heir to the Davidic Covenant. He is the one who has been pruning, digging, nourishing, and destroying the dead branches by casting them into the fire; and, the servant is the one who leads the gathering of fruit of the vineyard at the end. The servant is not "The Prophet." He is the Angel of the Lord.

“He”?
Assuming your not one of those ones who’ve fallen for the incorrect idea that 2 dads is as good as a mother and a father, tell me what makes more sense:
*Father, Male HG and Son, or...
*Father, Mother and Son??

“As above, so below.” We are created NOT by 2 males, but by a mother and father. Before the Universal theocracy (Catholic church) corrupted it, the Holy Ghost was symbolized by a Divine Feminine dove called, Astarte or Sophia.

I can see why people come to this conclusion...women are definitely represented by a deity, but it makes no sense to me that a mother would be lower than her son in authority and position.

Why is everything “father, son and Holy Ghost”? Not “father, Holy Ghost and son”? And why would Jesus send his mother “another comforter” when he was dead?

Again, not saying women don’t have equal importance to the male godhead (or their own equivalent godhead of grandmother, mother, daughter), I just think we don’t have that information at this time. We have knowledge of exactly half of the godhead...the male half.

Tradition is strong - makes anything seem true because it’s all many have known (or thought they knew) for centuries.

• E.g.:“The first chapter of Matthew traces Jesus' lineage through his father Joseph back to King David through something like 18 generations. But as we know, Jesus was born through the agency of the Holy Spirit meaning that Joseph did not impregnate his mother, the Virgin Mary.”

That’s taking the (unfortunately usual) literal approach. I believe that except when it is obviously literal (like thou shalt not kill etc), “without a parable spake he NOT unto them.” Jesus wasn’t the type to share his birth story just so we all could adore him and celebrate his birthday. His story was a parable to teach spiritual truths like the significance and miracle of being born physically and spiritually, and how we ALL are sons and daughters of God.

I believe that Heavenly Father (Intelligent Design) and Heavenly Mother (the Spirit) are so intertwined as to be inseparably connected and related. They work together as One. You know the story, “Wizard of Oz”? Symbolism in that reflects the 3 main Divine principles:
*Brain (Intelligent Design: Heavenly Father)
*Heart (Spirit: Heavenly Mother)
*Courage (Love/Exercising Free Will to do what’s right: Son of God)

[Baurak Ale]

The Servant of the Vineyard is The Holy Ghost...

These are all the same person - the heir to the Davidic Covenant. He is the one who has been pruning, digging, nourishing, and destroying the dead branches by casting them into the fire; and, the servant is the one who leads the gathering of fruit of the vineyard at the end. The servant is not "The Prophet." He is the Angel of the Lord.

“He”?
Assuming your not one of those ones who’ve fallen for the incorrect idea that 2 dads is as good as a mother and a father, tell me what makes more sense:
*Father, Male HG and Son, or...
*Father, Mother and Son??

“As above, so below.” We are created NOT by 2 males, but by a mother and father. Before the Universal theocracy (Catholic church) corrupted it, the Holy Ghost was symbolized by a Divine Feminine dove called, Astarte or Sophia.

I can see why people come to this conclusion...women are definitely represented by a deity, but it makes no sense to me that a mother would be lower than her son in authority and position.

Why is everything “father, son and Holy Ghost”? Not “father, Holy Ghost and son”? And why would Jesus send his mother “another comforter” when he was dead?

Again, not saying women don’t have equal importance to the male godhead (or their own equivalent godhead of grandmother, mother, daughter), I just think we don’t have that information at this time. We have knowledge of exactly half of the godhead...the male half.

Yes, I think it much more fitting for our mother in heaven to be equal with the father as he could not be a God without a Godess. Hence the Elohim is a plural in Hebrew, which at least symbolizes Heavenly Father and Mother. She is better represented by Ashera, the tree of life who bears the fruit, than Astarte. Sophia or wisdom, pneuma or breath/spirit, etc, are all feminine words in languages that use gender casing, but that doesn’t mean those things are actually female.

[Zathura]

The Servant of the Vineyard is The Holy Ghost...

These are all the same person - the heir to the Davidic Covenant. He is the one who has been pruning, digging, nourishing, and destroying the dead branches by casting them into the fire; and, the servant is the one who leads the gathering of fruit of the vineyard at the end. The servant is not "The Prophet." He is the Angel of the Lord.

“He”?
Assuming your not one of those ones who’ve fallen for the incorrect idea that 2 dads is as good as a mother and a father, tell me what makes more sense:
*Father, Male HG and Son, or...
*Father, Mother and Son??

“As above, so below.” We are created NOT by 2 males, but by a mother and father. Before the Universal theocracy (Catholic church) corrupted it, the Holy Ghost was symbolized by a Divine Feminine dove called, Astarte or Sophia.

I can see why people come to this conclusion...women are definitely represented by a deity, but it makes no sense to me that a mother would be lower than her son in authority and position.

Why is everything “father, son and Holy Ghost”? Not “father, Holy Ghost and son”? And why would Jesus send his mother “another comforter” when he was dead?

Again, not saying women don’t have equal importance to the male godhead (or their own equivalent godhead of grandmother, mother, daughter), I just think we don’t have that information at this time. We have knowledge of exactly half of the godhead...the male half.

I think it's possible that there is no other half to talk about.

"The Father" could be the same as "The Father and Mother" but we just use the word "Father". Think of it like saying "The Smiths".
I know to us, that sounds weird. "Father" indicates it's a male, and one male we are discussing but idk. Lots of things in the scriptures make no sense at first.

The Mother has to be every bit as important as the Father in the grand scheme of things, and I personally don't think there's a need for separate "roles" and definitions to try to explain why we don't hear about her. Truth be told I have not spend an awful amount of time thinking about this, but when we pray to "God", I think we are equally praying to the Father and Mother, even if we aren't explicitly addressing the Mother, because they are one. They respond to us through their mind(the spirit), of which they both possess a fullness. If we can become one with our spouse on earth, and become in harmony, how much more exponentially can this be done in the eternities? Idk. So.. I see no need to split it up. But again, I've spent little time on the topic. Speaking out of my comfort zone right now. No idea what I'm talkin about

[Thinker]

...Elohim is a plural in Hebrew, which at least symbolizes Heavenly Father and Mother. She is better represented by Ashera, the tree of life who bears the fruit, than Astarte. Sophia or wisdom, pneuma or breath/spirit, etc, are all feminine words...

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I hadn’t heard of Ashera so I looked up that term...

• “Eve remained closely associated with a snake and with 'every tree that is pleasant to see and good for food, the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil' (Gen 1:9” (Merker 1988). Again like her earthly conterpart Eve, who was the Mother of All Living, Ashera, was also known as the Mother of All Gods.
  
  The ancient Canaanites and later Hebrews paid particular reverence to a Near Eastern Goddess known by the name Ashera, whose cult was particularly focused around the cultic use of hemp.
  
  Icons dedicated to her have depictions of a 'sacred-tree', or plant, most likely made as a visual reference to the hemp that her followers grew and revered, utilizing it as an entheogen but also as a food and oil source, along with using the fibers in ritual weavings. Sula Benet believed that it was here amongst the worshippers of the goddess that the cultic use of cannabis originated: “Taking into account the matriarchal element of Semitic culture, one is led to believe that Asia Minor was the original point of expansion for both the society based on the matriachal circle and the mass use of hashish.” (Benetowa, [Benet], 1936).
  
  An ancient ivory cosmetic casket lid from the 14th century site of Minet al-beida, depicts the goddes herself in the role of the Tree of life, offering two caprids, vegetation which clearly resembles buds of cannabis, but has been erroneously described as both ears of wheat or corn. “This [depiction] seems to indicate finally the explanation of the biblical references to the 'ashera as a natural or stylized tree in the fertility cult. This was the symbol of the mother-goddess, now known from the Ras Shamra texts as Ashera, the counterpart of Mesopotamian Ishtar, or Inanna.... The tree of life...is called the ashera in the OLD TESTAMENT. (In the Authorized version, it is called 'the grove'.)”(Gray 1969).
  
  The word that the Bible, with evident distaste, translates 'grove' was not really a grove at all, but an Asherah: the stylized multi-branched tree symbolizing the Great Goddess of Canaan... Asherah's... tree symbol was alternately the 'tree of knowledge' or 'tree of life.' In northern Babylon she was known as the Goddess of the Tree of Life, or the Divine Lady of Eden. (Walker 1988)
  
  ...Moslem groups refered to cannabis by the name ashirah. They saw it as an endearing term for their hempen girlfriend, (Rosenthal 1971).
  
  Throughout the many centuries that this popular goddess was worshipped, her mythology combined and overlapped with that of other near Eastern goddesses, (Astarte, Anath, Astargatis, Eshitar), making it hard at times to see a historical distinction between them.
  http://www.herbmuseum.ca/content/goddess-and-tree-life

Another thing mentioned in the link above is prehistorically, women seemed to be considered to become pregnant on their own, since sex was common but conception sporadic. Like a virgin birth by divine conception. It also explained that Eve was considered mother of all, including Adam & Mother of all Gods - took human form and got Adam to eat fruit to become as the gods.

All this makes me wonder about past collective symbolic tradition and worshipping God - not in part but in whole.

[Davka]

The Servant of the Vineyard is The Holy Ghost...

These are all the same person - the heir to the Davidic Covenant. He is the one who has been pruning, digging, nourishing, and destroying the dead branches by casting them into the fire; and, the servant is the one who leads the gathering of fruit of the vineyard at the end. The servant is not "The Prophet." He is the Angel of the Lord.

“He”?
Assuming your not one of those ones who’ve fallen for the incorrect idea that 2 dads is as good as a mother and a father, tell me what makes more sense:
*Father, Male HG and Son, or...
*Father, Mother and Son??

“As above, so below.” We are created NOT by 2 males, but by a mother and father. Before the Universal theocracy (Catholic church) corrupted it, the Holy Ghost was symbolized by a Divine Feminine dove called, Astarte or Sophia.

I can see why people come to this conclusion...women are definitely represented by a deity, but it makes no sense to me that a mother would be lower than her son in authority and position.

Why is everything “father, son and Holy Ghost”? Not “father, Holy Ghost and son”? And why would Jesus send his mother “another comforter” when he was dead?

Again, not saying women don’t have equal importance to the male godhead (or their own equivalent godhead of grandmother, mother, daughter), I just think we don’t have that information at this time. We have knowledge of exactly half of the godhead...the male half.

Tradition is strong - makes anything seem true because it’s all many have known (or thought they knew) for centuries.

• E.g.:“The first chapter of Matthew traces Jesus' lineage through his father Joseph back to King David through something like 18 generations. But as we know, Jesus was born through the agency of the Holy Spirit meaning that Joseph did not impregnate his mother, the Virgin Mary.”

That’s taking the (unfortunately usual) literal approach. I believe that except when it is obviously literal (like thou shalt not kill etc), “without a parable spake he NOT unto them.” Jesus wasn’t the type to share his birth story just so we all could adore him and celebrate his birthday. His story was a parable to teach spiritual truths like the significance and miracle of being born physically and spiritually, and how we ALL are sons and daughters of God.

I believe that Heavenly Father (Intelligent Design) and Heavenly Mother (the Spirit) are so intertwined as to be inseparably connected and related. They work together as One. You know the story, “Wizard of Oz”? Symbolism in that reflects the 3 main Divine principles:
*Brain (Intelligent Design: Heavenly Father)
*Heart (Spirit: Heavenly Mother)
*Courage (Love/Exercising Free Will to do what’s right: Son of God)

Interesting idea, I do appreciate your thoughts. I have no problem looking at this figuratively, but the fact of the matter is that the Godhead is hierarchal, and the Son is below the Father and the Holy Ghost is below the Son. The temple endowment also depicts a patriarchal order. Women are conspicuously absent in these lines. So we can conclude it’s because a) women don’t matter b) it’s all so figurative that we just missed that there was a woman there all along or c) we only have the male side of the story. I go with B, as this is in line with my personal experiences and understanding, and is actually quite clear in the scriptures.

It actually seems more limited to me to think that women *must* represent the heart and men *must* represent the intelligence. I think the Wizard of Oz idea is...cute...but I’d rather learn about the character of God from the scriptures than Mr. Baum.

Of course there is more depth to the nativity story than most people realize, but I just don’t see a correlation between Mary and the Holy Ghost. Not to mention that that’s a rather awkward triangle when you bring Joseph into the picture. I would contend that the story of Jesus’ birth teaches us about one of the rungs in the ladder that women climb to become Heavenly Mothers...successfully raising a Savior to redeem all those Spirit babies. The mystery lies in what rung of the male ladder is on the equivalent level as Mary? God the Father? Her Son, Jesus? Or someone else?

The purpose of this life is to become like our father (and mother) in heaven. There’s a reason we learn about all these scripture characters...they show how to act and what to do so that we can someday do it. Just like a child watching as their older siblings graduate high school, go to college, get married, have their own family and...become like mom and dad.

[Davka]

The Servant of the Vineyard is The Holy Ghost...

These are all the same person - the heir to the Davidic Covenant. He is the one who has been pruning, digging, nourishing, and destroying the dead branches by casting them into the fire; and, the servant is the one who leads the gathering of fruit of the vineyard at the end. The servant is not "The Prophet." He is the Angel of the Lord.

“He”?
Assuming your not one of those ones who’ve fallen for the incorrect idea that 2 dads is as good as a mother and a father, tell me what makes more sense:
*Father, Male HG and Son, or...
*Father, Mother and Son??

“As above, so below.” We are created NOT by 2 males, but by a mother and father. Before the Universal theocracy (Catholic church) corrupted it, the Holy Ghost was symbolized by a Divine Feminine dove called, Astarte or Sophia.

I can see why people come to this conclusion...women are definitely represented by a deity, but it makes no sense to me that a mother would be lower than her son in authority and position.

Why is everything “father, son and Holy Ghost”? Not “father, Holy Ghost and son”? And why would Jesus send his mother “another comforter” when he was dead?

Again, not saying women don’t have equal importance to the male godhead (or their own equivalent godhead of grandmother, mother, daughter), I just think we don’t have that information at this time. We have knowledge of exactly half of the godhead...the male half.

I think it's possible that there is no other half to talk about.

"The Father" could be the same as "The Father and Mother" but we just use the word "Father". Think of it like saying "The Smiths".
I know to us, that sounds weird. "Father" indicates it's a male, and one male we are discussing but idk. Lots of things in the scriptures make no sense at first.

The Mother has to be every bit as important as the Father in the grand scheme of things, and I personally don't think there's a need for separate "roles" and definitions to try to explain why we don't hear about her. Truth be told I have not spend an awful amount of time thinking about this, but when we pray to "God", I think we are equally praying to the Father and Mother, even if we aren't explicitly addressing the Mother, because they are one. They respond to us through their mind(the spirit), of which they both possess a fullness. If we can become one with our spouse on earth, and become in harmony, how much more exponentially can this be done in the eternities? Idk. So.. I see no need to split it up. But again, I've spent little time on the topic. Speaking out of my comfort zone right now. No idea what I'm talkin about

Good points, very much agree.

But we still no next to nothing about the female path to Godess-hood other than “submit to your husband’s priesthood authority” and become one with him.

There has to be more of a test than that....although it would be nice to kick back and let my husband do all the work

[Thinker]

“He”?
Assuming your not one of those ones who’ve fallen for the incorrect idea that 2 dads is as good as a mother and a father, tell me what makes more sense:
*Father, Male HG and Son, or...
*Father, Mother and Son??

“As above, so below.” We are created NOT by 2 males, but by a mother and father. Before the Universal theocracy (Catholic church) corrupted it, the Holy Ghost was symbolized by a Divine Feminine dove called, Astarte or Sophia.

I can see why people come to this conclusion...women are definitely represented by a deity, but it makes no sense to me that a mother would be lower than her son in authority and position.

Why is everything “father, son and Holy Ghost”? Not “father, Holy Ghost and son”? And why would Jesus send his mother “another comforter” when he was dead?

Again, not saying women don’t have equal importance to the male godhead (or their own equivalent godhead of grandmother, mother, daughter), I just think we don’t have that information at this time. We have knowledge of exactly half of the godhead...the male half.

Tradition is strong - makes anything seem true because it’s all many have known (or thought they knew) for centuries.

• E.g.:“The first chapter of Matthew traces Jesus' lineage through his father Joseph back to King David through something like 18 generations. But as we know, Jesus was born through the agency of the Holy Spirit meaning that Joseph did not impregnate his mother, the Virgin Mary.”

That’s taking the (unfortunately usual) literal approach. I believe that except when it is obviously literal (like thou shalt not kill etc), “without a parable spake he NOT unto them.” Jesus wasn’t the type to share his birth story just so we all could adore him and celebrate his birthday. His story was a parable to teach spiritual truths like the significance and miracle of being born physically and spiritually, and how we ALL are sons and daughters of God.

I believe that Heavenly Father (Intelligent Design) and Heavenly Mother (the Spirit) are so intertwined as to be inseparably connected and related. They work together as One. You know the story, “Wizard of Oz”? Symbolism in that reflects the 3 main Divine principles:
*Brain (Intelligent Design: Heavenly Father)
*Heart (Spirit: Heavenly Mother)
*Courage (Love/Exercising Free Will to do what’s right: Son of God)

Interesting idea, I do appreciate your thoughts. I have no problem looking at this figuratively, but the fact of the matter is that the Godhead is hierarchal, and the Son is below the Father and the Holy Ghost is below the Son. The temple endowment also depicts a patriarchal order. Women are conspicuously absent in these lines. So we can conclude it’s because a) women don’t matter b) it’s all so figurative that we just missed that there was a woman there all along or c) we only have the male side of the story. I go with B, as this is in line with my personal experiences and understanding, and is actually quite clear in the scriptures.

It actually seems more limited to me to think that women *must* represent the heart and men *must* represent the intelligence. I think the Wizard of Oz idea is...cute...but I’d rather learn about the character of God from the scriptures than Mr. Baum.

Of course there is more depth to the nativity story than most people realize, but I just don’t see a correlation between Mary and the Holy Ghost. Not to mention that that’s a rather awkward triangle when you bring Joseph into the picture. I would contend that the story of Jesus’ birth teaches us about one of the rungs in the ladder that women climb to become Heavenly Mothers...successfully raising a Savior to redeem all those Spirit babies. The mystery lies in what rung of the male ladder is on the equivalent level as Mary? God the Father? Her Son, Jesus? Or someone else?

The purpose of this life is to become like our father (and mother) in heaven. There’s a reason we learn about all these scripture characters...they show how to act and what to do so that we can someday do it. Just like a child watching as their older siblings graduate high school, go to college, get married, have their own family and...become like mom and dad.

We’re pretty much on agreement as far as Heavenly Mother & Feminine Divinity. Personally, I’m finding the need to establish faith in a more healthy Mother - to heal.

The question still up is the supposed hierarchical order of the Godhead. It seems (though I could be mistaken) that the Catholic church took the apparent/literal chronological order. In their dogma, God came first, then the Son, then the Son sent the Comforter. Yet...did the Holy Spirit dwell with believers before that?

• Yes! Believers before the Pentecost (outpouring of the Spirit) did experience the Spirit...
  Believers were...
  1) Conscious of God’s Spirit as the Creator & Sustainer of their natural life. Job33:4, Psalm 104
  2) Experienced the “new birth & indwelling of the Holy Spirit.” Romans 8:7-9, John 3:10 (Christ explaining his teaching is not new)
  3) Enjoyed the constant presence of God’s Spirit. Psalm 139:7
  4) Experienced the Spirit as “their Counselor & Teacher.” Nehemiah 9:20,30
  5) Believed craftsmanship & artistic ability in the service of God was a gift of the Holy Spirit. Exodus 31:1-5
  6) Experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit as a power to denounce evil and declare righteousness. Micah 3:8
  7) Saw victory over fear by the presence of the Spirit. Haggai 2:5, Zechariah 4:6
  8) Experienced extraordinary feats of power to help them. Judges 14:6, 15:14
  9) The Spirit enabled some with ability to interpret God’s revelation in dreams. Acts 2:17
  10) The Holy Spirit gave some the gift of prophecy. Numbers 11:25, 29, Corinthians 12-14
  https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/ho ... -pentecost

So, no matter how the Catholic church has set up centuries old tradition, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (or The Father and Spirit) work together and are not higher or lower than the other. The Son, though, & all of us sons and daughters of God are as you explained, following after God.

Another consideration is that the Pentecost was said to be for ALL - including us. So, if the Spirit was so strong before the outpouring of the Spirit (as the above 10 points show)... how much stronger can it be with us!!

[XEmilyX]

Your faith is greater than mine for I can not imagine awakening to this mystery by faith alone. And, of course, some things have been hidden, intentionally so. Eventually we will all see eye to eye.

Isaiah 35:3 ¶ Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.

4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

Wow - Isaiah is truly incredible. The way of holiness is the path of the Holy Ghost. Becoming holy is how one achieves Firstborn status. That is what the term Holy Ghost / Holy Spirit means ... the spiritually begotten heir who is holy. Not perfect - but a state where condemnation ceases, and the final progression towards become a Son of Elohim begins. You could say this is the beginning of the process - becoming the Word of God / The Messenger of Salvation. The alpha step.

I have yet to dig into your posts or deep knowledge, however I have a question about this. Are you suggesting (as I've wondered before) that the path to godhood is through taking the positions of Holy Ghost (a davidic servant of sorts), a Savior (redeemer or ultimate sacrifice), and then a Father? Maybe I'm reading to far into it.

That's exactly what he's saying

It sounds fair to me. If Jesus had to make that sacrifice to obtain the keys to death and hell, then I would assume I’d have to do the same. No scriptural support (at least spelled out obviously) but logically, makes sense.

What about people who dont die in this life for the gospel? You get your body back at the resurrection and it doesnt separate from your spirit. That would make it a great deal harder for people to be like christ by dying if they haven't been killed for the gospel.
I dont know if you absolutely need to be sacrificed, it doesnt make sense if you're thinking about this being an equal opportunity thing. Not everyone has the "opportunity" to be sacrificed. (Totally Weird to call dying an opportunity) but yeah.

[Thinker]

Interesting idea, I do appreciate your thoughts. I have no problem looking at this figuratively, but the fact of the matter is that the Godhead is hierarchal...

Davka, something related...



Ra was considered the sun god, the son of the goddess, Isis.
El was the Father of creation, the main God.

(I’ll start another thread...)

[Durzan]

I can see why people come to this conclusion...women are definitely represented by a deity, but it makes no sense to me that a mother would be lower than her son in authority and position.

Why is everything “father, son and Holy Ghost”? Not “father, Holy Ghost and son”? And why would Jesus send his mother “another comforter” when he was dead?

Again, not saying women don’t have equal importance to the male godhead (or their own equivalent godhead of grandmother, mother, daughter), I just think we don’t have that information at this time. We have knowledge of exactly half of the godhead...the male half.

Tradition is strong - makes anything seem true because it’s all many have known (or thought they knew) for centuries.

• E.g.:“The first chapter of Matthew traces Jesus' lineage through his father Joseph back to King David through something like 18 generations. But as we know, Jesus was born through the agency of the Holy Spirit meaning that Joseph did not impregnate his mother, the Virgin Mary.”

That’s taking the (unfortunately usual) literal approach. I believe that except when it is obviously literal (like thou shalt not kill etc), “without a parable spake he NOT unto them.” Jesus wasn’t the type to share his birth story just so we all could adore him and celebrate his birthday. His story was a parable to teach spiritual truths like the significance and miracle of being born physically and spiritually, and how we ALL are sons and daughters of God.

I believe that Heavenly Father (Intelligent Design) and Heavenly Mother (the Spirit) are so intertwined as to be inseparably connected and related. They work together as One. You know the story, “Wizard of Oz”? Symbolism in that reflects the 3 main Divine principles:
*Brain (Intelligent Design: Heavenly Father)
*Heart (Spirit: Heavenly Mother)
*Courage (Love/Exercising Free Will to do what’s right: Son of God)

Interesting idea, I do appreciate your thoughts. I have no problem looking at this figuratively, but the fact of the matter is that the Godhead is hierarchal, and the Son is below the Father and the Holy Ghost is below the Son. The temple endowment also depicts a patriarchal order. Women are conspicuously absent in these lines. So we can conclude it’s because a) women don’t matter b) it’s all so figurative that we just missed that there was a woman there all along or c) we only have the male side of the story. I go with B, as this is in line with my personal experiences and understanding, and is actually quite clear in the scriptures.

It actually seems more limited to me to think that women *must* represent the heart and men *must* represent the intelligence. I think the Wizard of Oz idea is...cute...but I’d rather learn about the character of God from the scriptures than Mr. Baum.

Of course there is more depth to the nativity story than most people realize, but I just don’t see a correlation between Mary and the Holy Ghost. Not to mention that that’s a rather awkward triangle when you bring Joseph into the picture. I would contend that the story of Jesus’ birth teaches us about one of the rungs in the ladder that women climb to become Heavenly Mothers...successfully raising a Savior to redeem all those Spirit babies. The mystery lies in what rung of the male ladder is on the equivalent level as Mary? God the Father? Her Son, Jesus? Or someone else?

The purpose of this life is to become like our father (and mother) in heaven. There’s a reason we learn about all these scripture characters...they show how to act and what to do so that we can someday do it. Just like a child watching as their older siblings graduate high school, go to college, get married, have their own family and...become like mom and dad.

We’re pretty much on agreement as far as Heavenly Mother & Feminine Divinity. Personally, I’m finding the need to establish faith in a more healthy Mother - to heal.

The question still up is the supposed hierarchical order of the Godhead. It seems (though I could be mistaken) that the Catholic church took the apparent/literal chronological order. In their dogma, God came first, then the Son, then the Son sent the Comforter. Yet...did the Holy Spirit dwell with believers before that?

• Yes! Believers before the Pentecost (outpouring of the Spirit) did experience the Spirit...
  Believers were...
  1) Conscious of God’s Spirit as the Creator & Sustainer of their natural life. Job33:4, Psalm 104
  2) Experienced the “new birth & indwelling of the Holy Spirit.” Romans 8:7-9, John 3:10 (Christ explaining his teaching is not new)
  3) Enjoyed the constant presence of God’s Spirit. Psalm 139:7
  4) Experienced the Spirit as “their Counselor & Teacher.” Nehemiah 9:20,30
  5) Believed craftsmanship & artistic ability in the service of God was a gift of the Holy Spirit. Exodus 31:1-5
  6) Experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit as a power to denounce evil and declare righteousness. Micah 3:8
  7) Saw victory over fear by the presence of the Spirit. Haggai 2:5, Zechariah 4:6
  8) Experienced extraordinary feats of power to help them. Judges 14:6, 15:14
  9) The Spirit enabled some with ability to interpret God’s revelation in dreams. Acts 2:17
  10) The Holy Spirit gave some the gift of prophecy. Numbers 11:25, 29, Corinthians 12-14
  https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/ho ... -pentecost

So, no matter how the Catholic church has set up centuries old tradition, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (or The Father and Spirit) work together and are not higher or lower than the other. The Son, though, & all of us sons and daughters of God are as you explained, following after God.

Another consideration is that the Pentecost was said to be for ALL - including us. So, if the Spirit was so strong before the outpouring of the Spirit (as the above 10 points show)... how much stronger can it be with us!!

Nope. The Spirit isn't Heavenly Mother. The Spirit is the Davidic Servant. Remember that in Israeli theology, God is simultaneously both masculine and feminine, so that aspect is shared among all the members of the Godhead. In Hindu Mythology, there is a Triumverate of head goddesses as well as gods. By merging these two distorted pieces of information, we can get a clearer picture of the actual truth, and realize that balance is achieved. Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother are one God together... NOT Separate. They fill two halves of the same position in the Godhead; two individuals sealed... one effective soul... one Heavenly Parent. This is what marriage and sealing is symbolic of, and is for... the merging of two complementary halves into one soul.

Heavenly Father is more visible because...

A: a man has been likened to the Head (and thus is more visible/has more visible leadership), while the woman has been likened to the heart (which is protected and hidden behind the ribcage, but is no less important for the functioning of the body. Side note: The heart actually has a little brain of its own).

B: because of how ancient religions worshipped her inappropriately. Google the Canaanite goddess Asherah for starters, because that's where it started as far as I know.

[Davka]

Interesting idea, I do appreciate your thoughts. I have no problem looking at this figuratively, but the fact of the matter is that the Godhead is hierarchal...

Davka, something related...



Ra was considered the sun god, the son of the goddess, Isis.
El was the Father of creation, the main God.

(I’ll start another thread...)

Very interesting. Thank you!

[Thinker]

Tradition is strong - makes anything seem true because it’s all many have known (or thought they knew) for centuries.

• E.g.:“The first chapter of Matthew traces Jesus' lineage through his father Joseph back to King David through something like 18 generations. But as we know, Jesus was born through the agency of the Holy Spirit meaning that Joseph did not impregnate his mother, the Virgin Mary.”

That’s taking the (unfortunately usual) literal approach. I believe that except when it is obviously literal (like thou shalt not kill etc), “without a parable spake he NOT unto them.” Jesus wasn’t the type to share his birth story just so we all could adore him and celebrate his birthday. His story was a parable to teach spiritual truths like the significance and miracle of being born physically and spiritually, and how we ALL are sons and daughters of God.

I believe that Heavenly Father (Intelligent Design) and Heavenly Mother (the Spirit) are so intertwined as to be inseparably connected and related. They work together as One. You know the story, “Wizard of Oz”? Symbolism in that reflects the 3 main Divine principles:
*Brain (Intelligent Design: Heavenly Father)
*Heart (Spirit: Heavenly Mother)
*Courage (Love/Exercising Free Will to do what’s right: Son of God)

Interesting idea, I do appreciate your thoughts. I have no problem looking at this figuratively, but the fact of the matter is that the Godhead is hierarchal, and the Son is below the Father and the Holy Ghost is below the Son. The temple endowment also depicts a patriarchal order. Women are conspicuously absent in these lines. So we can conclude it’s because a) women don’t matter b) it’s all so figurative that we just missed that there was a woman there all along or c) we only have the male side of the story. I go with B, as this is in line with my personal experiences and understanding, and is actually quite clear in the scriptures.

It actually seems more limited to me to think that women *must* represent the heart and men *must* represent the intelligence. I think the Wizard of Oz idea is...cute...but I’d rather learn about the character of God from the scriptures than Mr. Baum.

Of course there is more depth to the nativity story than most people realize, but I just don’t see a correlation between Mary and the Holy Ghost. Not to mention that that’s a rather awkward triangle when you bring Joseph into the picture. I would contend that the story of Jesus’ birth teaches us about one of the rungs in the ladder that women climb to become Heavenly Mothers...successfully raising a Savior to redeem all those Spirit babies. The mystery lies in what rung of the male ladder is on the equivalent level as Mary? God the Father? Her Son, Jesus? Or someone else?

The purpose of this life is to become like our father (and mother) in heaven. There’s a reason we learn about all these scripture characters...they show how to act and what to do so that we can someday do it. Just like a child watching as their older siblings graduate high school, go to college, get married, have their own family and...become like mom and dad.

We’re pretty much on agreement as far as Heavenly Mother & Feminine Divinity. Personally, I’m finding the need to establish faith in a more healthy Mother - to heal.

The question still up is the supposed hierarchical order of the Godhead. It seems (though I could be mistaken) that the Catholic church took the apparent/literal chronological order. In their dogma, God came first, then the Son, then the Son sent the Comforter. Yet...did the Holy Spirit dwell with believers before that?

• Yes! Believers before the Pentecost (outpouring of the Spirit) did experience the Spirit...
  Believers were...
  1) Conscious of God’s Spirit as the Creator & Sustainer of their natural life. Job33:4, Psalm 104
  2) Experienced the “new birth & indwelling of the Holy Spirit.” Romans 8:7-9, John 3:10 (Christ explaining his teaching is not new)
  3) Enjoyed the constant presence of God’s Spirit. Psalm 139:7
  4) Experienced the Spirit as “their Counselor & Teacher.” Nehemiah 9:20,30
  5) Believed craftsmanship & artistic ability in the service of God was a gift of the Holy Spirit. Exodus 31:1-5
  6) Experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit as a power to denounce evil and declare righteousness. Micah 3:8
  7) Saw victory over fear by the presence of the Spirit. Haggai 2:5, Zechariah 4:6
  8) Experienced extraordinary feats of power to help them. Judges 14:6, 15:14
  9) The Spirit enabled some with ability to interpret God’s revelation in dreams. Acts 2:17
  10) The Holy Spirit gave some the gift of prophecy. Numbers 11:25, 29, Corinthians 12-14
  https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/ho ... -pentecost

So, no matter how the Catholic church has set up centuries old tradition, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (or The Father and Spirit) work together and are not higher or lower than the other. The Son, though, & all of us sons and daughters of God are as you explained, following after God.

Another consideration is that the Pentecost was said to be for ALL - including us. So, if the Spirit was so strong before the outpouring of the Spirit (as the above 10 points show)... how much stronger can it be with us!!

Nope. The Spirit isn't Heavenly Mother. The Spirit is the Davidic Servant. Remember that in Israeli theology, God is simultaneously both masculine and feminine, so that aspect is shared among all the members of the Godhead. In Hindu Mythology, there is a Triumverate of head goddesses as well as gods. By merging these two distorted pieces of information, we can get a clearer picture of the actual truth, and realize that balance is achieved. Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother are one God together... NOT Separate. They fill two halves of the same position in the Godhead; two individuals sealed... one effective soul... one Heavenly Parent. This is what marriage and sealing is symbolic of, and is for... the merging of two complementary halves into one soul.

Heavenly Father is more visible because...

A: a man has been likened to the Head (and thus is more visible/has more visible leadership), while the woman has been likened to the heart (which is protected and hidden behind the ribcage, but is no less important for the functioning of the body. Side note: The heart actually has a little brain of its own).

B: because of how ancient religions worshipped her inappropriately. Google the Canaanite goddess Asherah for starters, because that's where it started as far as I know.

I agree that God is both Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. But I also see the Spirit as inseparably one with God.

• Jesus said, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”- John 4:24

[Alaris]

I just received these notes from a dear friend who received the notes from a friend who saw Ferris pass out at 31 flavors last night. The final line is from said person.

Personally - seeing Gileadi use Jacob 5 to illustrate the Davidic Servant's works is a nice confirmation. There's a lot more in these notes - great scriptures to study!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Transitional Events that Bring the Millennial Age

AVRAHAM GILEADI

09-14-19

Isaiah is written in code. We can understand it if we study and search and break the code.

Nine Categories for the Transitional Events

Awaiting a Forerunner of Jesus’ Second Coming
Preparing the Way for Jehovah’s Coming to Reign
Gathering Israel from the Four Parts of the Earth
Delivering God’s Elect from End time Calamities
Applying the Terms of the Davidic Covenant
Establishing Zion among the House of Israel
Restoring Israel’s Tribes to Lands of Inheritance
Ascending to a Translated or to Seraphic Condition
Transitioning from the Telestial to the Terrestrial World

*1 Awaiting a Forerunner of Jesus’ Second Coming


Isa 42:1

Isa 41:26-27

Isa 49:8-10

Isa 49:2-4

Isa 50:7-9 - He has enemies

Isa 52:13-15 – He is marred

3 N. 21:10-11 – He is marred

3N. 26:8-9, 11 – He is marred

Isa 40:3-5 – John the Baptist

Mal 3:1 – He prepares the way, see footnote, Joel 2:11

D&C 77:9 – Comes to the temple, given seal of God over 12 Tribes

Isa 49:6 – Raise up the Tribe of Jacob

Jacob 5:61-62 – Calls up other Servants, fruits, we bear fruits

D&C 77:11 – The Church of the Firstborn/Calling and Election/Just men made perfect


*2 Preparing the Way for Jehovah’s Coming to Reign


3 N. 21:26-28 – The Father’s Work (through the 144k) Prepares the Way. It is the restoration of the House of Israel, not the gospel.

Isa 41:2 – Called Righteousness form the elect.

Elect will go through a descent phase (suffering) and then and ascent phase to become the 144k

Isa 46:11-13 – Summons the Servant (Bird of Prey = Servant)


*3 Gathering Israel from the Four Parts of the Earth


Isa 49:22-23 – Raises an Ensign (Kings and Queens to come) (think temple endowment)

Isa 55:3-5 Summons a New Nation, a prince a law giver of the people

Isa 52:11-12

2N. 10:7-9 – Gentiles gather Israel

3 N. 16:4-5 – Ephraim’s Role

Moses 7:62 – Righteousness (Servant) and Truth (Sealed Portion) Gather the Elect,

New Jerusalem! Zion! We will be translated to do our job.


*4 Delivering God’s Elect from End time Calamities


Isa 10:22-23 – Calamities happening all at once, everywhere. “Only a remnant shall return”

Isa 27:12-13 – Gathering the Gleanings of Israel, one by one, Egypt = America,

Jerusalem = New Jerusalem

Isa 35:10 – Elect gather to Zion

Isa 41:11-12 Enemies of God Perish

Isa 35:3-4 Strengthen Others, God will avenge your enemies

Isa 43:5-7 Exodus of the Elect from all Directions

Isa 43:2 – Power over the elements

Isa 4:5-6 Protective Cloud of Glory

Isa 25:4-5 We will help others


*5 Applying the Terms of the Davidic Covenant


Isa 65:8 – Servants are Proxy Saviors

Isa 56:6-7 Gentile origins of Servants, keep the Sabbath, Hold fast to the covenant, bring to my temple offerings and sacrifices are accepted.

Romans 21:1 Bodies are a Holy sacrifice acceptable to God

Romans 8:16-19 Suffering w/Christ to Sons of God, suffer with him that we may be glorified together.

Isa 38:1-6 Davidic Covenant in action

Hezekiah suffers on behalf of his people. Put your house in order, you will die. Hez cries out and the Lord grants him an additional 15 years.
Isa 53:11-12 – Servant vindicates many.

Isa 54:17 – Servants have power over enemy

Isa 62:6-7 – Watchmen are intercessors appointed to be watchmen

Isa 62:1 Servants are advocates for Zion


*6 Establishing Zion among the House of Israel


Isa 62:10-12 Servants are Preparing for the Savior’s Second Coming

Isa 54:4-5- Jehovah’s wife (think marriage supper) is remarried

Isa 54:6-8 Zion marries by Everlasting Covenant

Isa 14:31-32 Invasion comes from the North

Isa 9:2-3 Passing from Darkness to Light

Isa 1:25-26 Jehovah’s people are refined and restored, the dross is gone

Isa 51:16 Zion is established on the earth

3N. 21:1 – You are my people


*7 Restoring Israel’s Tribes to the Land of Inheritance


Isa 60:1-4 Elect arrive in Zion

Isa 26:2-3 Righteous find safety in Zion

Isa 49:17-18 Zion’s children return to her

Isa 54:1-3 Zion expands throughout the earth “resettle desolate cities)

Isa 54:11-13 Jehovah beautifies Zion’s land “peace of your posterity”

Isa 60:10-11 Zion is a place of pilgrimage

Isa 60:15-16 Zion becomes an eternal city

Isa 60:21 Zion’s people inherit the earth


* 8 Ascending to a Translated or to Seraphic Condition


Isa 26:7-9 Jehovah’s ordinances lead to his presence

Isa 40:31 Ascending to a translated state, renewed in strength, ascend on angel wings

D&C 58:9-11 Marriage supper of the Lamb (before the days of destruction) – 3 years long

Isa 25:6-8 Transitioning from Mortality to Immortality

1N. 14:13-14 Power of the Lamb descends, abominations to gather against the Lame of God, It is when we are threatened that we are protected

(Gentiles change to Saints title in the Book of Mormon)

Isa 52:1-3 Zion rises from the dust, put on your robes of glory

Isa 35:5-6 Earth is regenerated

Isa 59:21 Jehovah’s spirit becomes permanent (now it is conditional upon our faith)

Isa 61:10 Celestial marriage for God’s elect

Isa 61:8-9 Jehovah’s unconditional covenant, a sure reward


*9 Transitioning from the Telestial to the Terrestrial World


Isa 26:19 and Rev 20:5 – Resurrection

Isa 12:4-6 Jehovah comes to dwell

3N. 20:22 Jehovah comes to dwell in New Jerusalem

Isa 65:25 Harmony among men and beasts

Isa 54:10 Jehovah’s Millennial covenant of peace

Isa 65:17-18 New creation of heaven and earth, former events not remembered or recalled

Isa 62:2-3 Jehovah exalts his people called Zion

Isa 60:13-14 Zion is epitome of beauty; many will bow before you

Isa 66:12-14 Zion is the consolation of its people

The Book of Isaiah testifies of 3 things: Jehovah, Davidic Servant, Jehovah’s Servants


These are my notes from the event. OK to share. Please share!

[Michael Sherwin]

The almighty God, the FIRST CAUSE, is beyond time and space and man's ability to understand. The FC is neither male or female and yet within the FC is both male and female. The FC is not the Father or the Son or the Holy Ghost. The Father proceeds from the FC into this 'reality' through the throne in heaven. The throne is not a literal chair that the Father sits on. It is the portal into this reality that the portion of the FC known as the Father manifest through. Within the Father are the energies that we think of as male and female. However, these energies are not sexual in anyway at this point. Therefore the Father is also Mother as well. In Revelation is an analogy of the FC manifesting into this reality through the throne.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Out of the throne (portal) emanates great power. The seven Spirits of God emanate from the throne. That is why they are before the throne. The Seven Spirits of God are ONE.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

The complete Lamb united together with the seven Spirits of God is the Father. So yes there are eight Spirits in total. Jesus after he ascended into heaven reunited with the Father.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Actually in Revelation 5:6 we see the Lamb complete as all seven Spirits of God have reunited with the Lamb. The last to go out and return is the DS. He is not the eighth in authority, imo. He is eighth because he is the last to go out into the earth. Also we have seen that Jesus was the first to be born directly from the Father. It is unknown if the rest emanated directly from the Father. It seems likely that the other six then emanated from Jesus. At least it seems that the DS did emanate from Jesus. Anyway that would make Jesus their God and the Father is Jesus God. Jesus also created mankind and that is why he is our God.

Psalm 89 speaks almost exclusively about Jesus, as LORD of host, that sends another Lord into the earth as the DS.

Psalm 89:1 I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.

Psalm 89:2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.

Psalm 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David (the beloved) my servant,

Psalm 89:4 Thy seed (not his progeny, but the immortal seed within him that is resurrected with eternal life, 1st Cor 15:35-38) will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

Psalm 89:5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD (Lord, the DS): thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

Psalm 89:6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD (Lord, DS)? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD (Lord, DS)?

Psalm 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

Psalm 89:8 O LORD God of hosts (Jesus), who is a strong LORD(Lord, DS) like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?

Psalm 89:9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.

Psalm 89:10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.

Psalm 89:11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.

Psalm 89:12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.

Psalm 89:13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand (DS).

Psalm 89:14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

Psalm 89:15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.

Psalm 89:16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.

Psalm 89:17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.

Psalm 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

Psalm 89:19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

Psalm 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

Psalm 89:21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.

Psalm 89:22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

Psalm 89:23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.

Psalm 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

Psalm 89:25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.

Psalm 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

Psalm 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Psalm 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

Psalm 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

Psalm 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

Psalm 89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

Psalm 89:32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Psalm 89:33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Psalm 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

Psalm 89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

Psalm 89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Psalm 89:38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.

Psalm 89:39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.

Psalm 89:40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.

Psalm 89:41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.

Psalm 89:42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.

Psalm 89:43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.

Psalm 89:44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.

Psalm 89:45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.

Psalm 89:46 How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?

Psalm 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Psalm 89:49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?

Psalm 89:50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;

Psalm 89:51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O LORD; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.

Psalm 89:52 Blessed be the LORD for evermore. Amen, and Amen.

[simpleton]

The almighty God, the FIRST CAUSE, is beyond time and space and man's ability to understand. The FC is neither male or female and yet within the FC is both male and female. The FC is not the Father or the Son or the Holy Ghost. The Father proceeds from the FC into this 'reality' through the throne in heaven. The throne is not a literal chair that the Father sits on. It is the portal into this reality that the portion of the FC known as the Father manifest through. Within the Father are the energies that we think of as male and female. However, these energies are not sexual in anyway at this point. Therefore the Father is also Mother as well. In Revelation is an analogy of the FC manifesting into this reality through the throne.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Out of the throne (portal) emanates great power. The seven Spirits of God emanate from the throne. That is why they are before the throne. The Seven Spirits of God are ONE.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

The complete Lamb united together with the seven Spirits of God is the Father. So yes there are eight Spirits in total. Jesus after he ascended into heaven reunited with the Father.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Actually in Revelation 5:6 we see the Lamb complete as all seven Spirits of God have reunited with the Lamb. The last to go out and return is the DS. He is not the eighth in authority, imo. He is eighth because he is the last to go out into the earth. Also we have seen that Jesus was the first to be born directly from the Father. It is unknown if the rest emanated directly from the Father. It seems likely that the other six then emanated from Jesus. At least it seems that the DS did emanate from Jesus. Anyway that would make Jesus their God and the Father is Jesus God. Jesus also created mankind and that is why he is our God.

Psalm 89 speaks almost exclusively about Jesus, as LORD of host, that sends another Lord into the earth as the DS.

Psalm 89:1 I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.

Psalm 89:2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.

Psalm 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David (the beloved) my servant,

Psalm 89:4 Thy seed (not his progeny, but the immortal seed within him that is resurrected with eternal life, 1st Cor 15:35-38) will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

Psalm 89:5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD (Lord, the DS): thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

Psalm 89:6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD (Lord, DS)? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD (Lord, DS)?

Psalm 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

Psalm 89:8 O LORD God of hosts (Jesus), who is a strong LORD(Lord, DS) like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?

Psalm 89:9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.

Psalm 89:10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.

Psalm 89:11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.

Psalm 89:12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.

Psalm 89:13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand (DS).

Psalm 89:14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

Psalm 89:15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.

Psalm 89:16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.

Psalm 89:17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.

Psalm 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

Psalm 89:19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

Psalm 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

Psalm 89:21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.

Psalm 89:22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

Psalm 89:23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.

Psalm 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

Psalm 89:25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.

Psalm 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

Psalm 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Psalm 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

Psalm 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

Psalm 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

Psalm 89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

Psalm 89:32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Psalm 89:33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Psalm 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

Psalm 89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

Psalm 89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Psalm 89:38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.

Psalm 89:39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.

Psalm 89:40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.

Psalm 89:41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.

Psalm 89:42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.

Psalm 89:43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.

Psalm 89:44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.

Psalm 89:45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.

Psalm 89:46 How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?

Psalm 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Psalm 89:49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?

Psalm 89:50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;

Psalm 89:51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O LORD; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.

Psalm 89:52 Blessed be the LORD for evermore. Amen, and Amen.

Is this "bouncing"?

[BeNotDeceived]

The almighty God, the FIRST CAUSE, is beyond time and space and man's ability to understand. The FC is neither male or female and yet within the FC is both male and female. The FC is not the Father or the Son or the Holy Ghost. The Father proceeds from the FC into this 'reality' through the throne in heaven. The throne is not a literal chair that the Father sits on. It is the portal into this reality that the portion of the FC known as the Father manifest through. Within the Father are the energies that we think of as male and female. However, these energies are not sexual in anyway at this point. Therefore the Father is also Mother as well. In Revelation is an analogy of the FC manifesting into this reality through the throne.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Out of the throne (portal) emanates great power. The seven Spirits of God emanate from the throne. That is why they are before the throne. The Seven Spirits of God are ONE.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

The complete Lamb united together with the seven Spirits of God is the Father. So yes there are eight Spirits in total. Jesus after he ascended into heaven reunited with the Father.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Actually in Revelation 5:6 we see the Lamb complete as all seven Spirits of God have reunited with the Lamb. The last to go out and return is the DS. He is not the eighth in authority, imo. He is eighth because he is the last to go out into the earth. Also we have seen that Jesus was the first to be born directly from the Father. It is unknown if the rest emanated directly from the Father. It seems likely that the other six then emanated from Jesus. At least it seems that the DS did emanate from Jesus. Anyway that would make Jesus their God and the Father is Jesus God. Jesus also created mankind and that is why he is our God.

Psalm 89 speaks almost exclusively about Jesus, as LORD of host, that sends another Lord into the earth as the DS.

Psalm 89:1 I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.

Psalm 89:2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.

Psalm 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David (the beloved) my servant,

Psalm 89:4 Thy seed (not his progeny, but the immortal seed within him that is resurrected with eternal life, 1st Cor 15:35-38) will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

Psalm 89:5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD (Lord, the DS): thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

Psalm 89:6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD (Lord, DS)? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD (Lord, DS)?

Psalm 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

Psalm 89:8 O LORD God of hosts (Jesus), who is a strong LORD(Lord, DS) like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?

Psalm 89:9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.

Psalm 89:10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.

Psalm 89:11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.

Psalm 89:12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.

Psalm 89:13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand (DS).

Psalm 89:14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

Psalm 89:15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.

Psalm 89:16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.

Psalm 89:17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.

Psalm 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

Psalm 89:19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

Psalm 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

Psalm 89:21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.

Psalm 89:22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

Psalm 89:23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.

Psalm 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

Psalm 89:25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.

Psalm 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

Psalm 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Psalm 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

Psalm 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

Psalm 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

Psalm 89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

Psalm 89:32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Psalm 89:33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Psalm 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

Psalm 89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

Psalm 89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Psalm 89:38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.

Psalm 89:39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.

Psalm 89:40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.

Psalm 89:41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.

Psalm 89:42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.

Psalm 89:43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.

Psalm 89:44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.

Psalm 89:45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.

Psalm 89:46 How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?

Psalm 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Psalm 89:49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?

Psalm 89:50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;

Psalm 89:51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O LORD; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.

Psalm 89:52 Blessed be the LORD for evermore. Amen, and Amen.

Is this "bouncing"?

Taking off is optional, landing is mandatory.

Flying is the 2nd greatest thrill,
Landing, is first !

[Robbinius]

I'm loving the article so far. I'm a bit puzzled at a couple of things:

The 8th angel (The Davidic Angel) is then seated upon the throne of Adam. The Destroyer - the Angel of the Lord - is the one who is then seated upon the throne by the Father. He is the one who works the vineyard. John describes him as "He who sitteth upon the throne."

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I'm not sure I'm following you here. It appears you are saying Revelation 5:12 is referring to Abaddon. However, I believe this is referring to Jesus who is the Lamb slain. I could be missing it, but where do we have record of Abaddon being slain? I realize the two Olive branches will be slain in defending Jerusalem from the great and terrible army, but is that sacrificial? After all, there are two there who are killed. That seems like a different thing than what this verse is taking about.

I realize Jesus' dominion before being born to Mary was worlds, but He still had more to receive after the atonement. We do know that Jesus received a marked difference after His resurrection, as noted by Him referring to Himself and His Father both being perfect in 3 Nephi 12:48. But He ascended to the higher level of His Father after performing His atonement, which would probably indicate a reception of more "power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing," would it not? I don't think the DS is the only being who increases through the execution of duty in this round.

I do agree that 13 refers to both, and that the 8th angel is he who sitteth upon the throne.

[Michael Sherwin]

I stumbled upon this about the eighth angel. I don't know if there is anything insightful. It is interesting that others know of this eighth angel.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5V5HD ... el&f=false

[Alaris]

I stumbled upon this about the eighth angel. I don't know if there is anything insightful. It is interesting that others know of this eighth angel.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5V5HD ... el&f=false

After a quick glance at the intro, this book wasn't published by deseret book, so I'm even more impressed that an apparently nonmember sees the importance of the sequence seven then eight.

Moreover, this eighth angel appears to be doing the duties of the high priest. Although the author ties the acts of this 8th angel to the temple / tabernacle and duties of the high priest, he doesn't connect the angel himself to the office of high priest of Israel - the ultimate high priest of Israel. His last sentence does connect the ascent of this high priest (who has been receiving the prayers of the saints) to God with the last contingency before the trumps start sound. Feast ... of ... trumpets.

Thanks for the link Michael.

Apocalypse of Thomas: And on the seventh day at the eighth hour there shall be voices in the four corners of the heaven. And all the air shall be shaken, and filled with holy angels, and they shall make war among them all the day long. And in that day shall mine elect be sought out by the holy angels from the destruction of the world. Then shall all men see that the hour of their destruction draweth near. These are the signs of the seventh day.

And when the seven days are passed by, on the eighth day at the sixth hour there shall be a sweet and tender voice in heaven from the east. Then shall that angel be revealed which hath power over the holy angels: and all the angels shall go forth with him, sitting upon chariots of the clouds of mine holy Father (so) rejoicing and running upon the air beneath the heaven to deliver the elect that have believed in me. And they shall rejoice that the destruction of this world hath come.

[Alaris]

I'm loving the article so far. I'm a bit puzzled at a couple of things:

The 8th angel (The Davidic Angel) is then seated upon the throne of Adam. The Destroyer - the Angel of the Lord - is the one who is then seated upon the throne by the Father. He is the one who works the vineyard. John describes him as "He who sitteth upon the throne."

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I'm not sure I'm following you here. It appears you are saying Revelation 5:12 is referring to Abaddon. However, I believe this is referring to Jesus who is the Lamb slain. I could be missing it, but where do we have record of Abaddon being slain? I realize the two Olive branches will be slain in defending Jerusalem from the great and terrible army, but is that sacrificial? After all, there are two there who are killed. That seems like a different thing than what this verse is taking about.

I truly appreciate the questions. I'm having a rough couple of days, so there's nothing like discussing these mysteries that perks my spirits up.

I'll first answer the question as to what I'm saying and then add in what I've suggested elsewhere.

Firstly, are these two verses about Jesus or the Davidic Servant? Yes. This understanding applies to what I'm saying and also to what I've suggested.

What I'm saying is Jesus Christ is the Lamb who was slain in verse 12 ... to what end? To receive: power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. For Himself? Of course not!!! Then for whom? The answer is in the next verse: "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever"

Who "sitteth" upon the throne? The Angel of the Lord. When John gets to the point where he ties this all together, what does he do? Mystery solved.

So the achievements of Jesus Christ are first for his Heir, the Davidic heir - and then because of His heir, they are then unto Him ... and for how long? Forever and ever (Ezekiel 37.)

That's seven rewards for the seven accomplishments of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11. The primary goal & accomplishment of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is ransoming His heir. On the day of Atonement, the High Priest makes Atonement for himself, his house, then Israel. A lamb per house on Passover is a clear indication that these sacrifices (yes plural sacrifices of Saviors for their Sons) are extremely intimate / personal primarily for a person (firstborn), then their house....then everyone else. That's why passover is all about passing over the firstborn. Without Jesus, His firstborn could never ascend to his own throne and receive his everlasting name. So, yes Jesus it the firstborn of Elohim, but the Holy Ghost is becoming the firstborn of Jesus Christ. The spiritually begotten son made Holy by Jesus Christ. The...Holy ...Spirit.

And who makes Atonement for everyone else? The High Priest of Israel by the blood of the Lamb. This is literally all over the place in regards to the Holy Ghost, the Davidic Servant, and the Angel of the Lord. All three have the keys of judgement - what is judgment if not Atonement?

I realize Jesus' dominion before being born to Mary was worlds, but He still had more to receive after the atonement. We do know that Jesus received a marked difference after His resurrection, as noted by Him referring to Himself and His Father both being perfect in 3 Nephi 12:48. But He ascended to the higher level of His Father after performing His atonement, which would probably indicate a reception of more "power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing," would it not? I don't think the DS is the only being who increases through the execution of duty in this round.

I do agree that 13 refers to both, and that the 8th angel is he who sitteth upon the throne.

This will make plain, clear sense to you I'm certain: As the Lucifer sought glory for himself, how do the actual Gods contrast? Jesus couldn't stop giving glory to His father and the ends of His sacrifice are for His heir, His house, Israel, then everybody else. Is that PC? Nope. True nonetheless.

So is it any wonder that when we take a closer look at the Gods they're constantly giving glory and power elsewhere? Michael vacates his throne for crying out loud - allows someone else to rule upon it. And who is that person? What's his name? That's right we don't know! He's been pruning the vineyard in freaking anonymity.

And Jesus? What's He all about? Blessing and glory and honor and power be unto Himself? Of course not. And who are the 24 elders toe declare the lamb as "worthy?" Certainly they have no dominion to make such a declaration unless these 24 elders are higher than Jesus Christ. Unless their declaration of "worthiness" pertains to the Angel of the Lord - "The sacrifice is worthy to ransom this man permanently from manhood into an everlasting dominion of godhood.

You literally can't find a legitimate God who gives glory unto himself.

As far as what I've suggested: There are two lambs sacrificed for seven days during the levite cleansing ritual. A morning lamb and an evening lamb. An alpha (dawn) lamb and an omega (dusk) lamb. So, could Jesus and the Davidic Servant be the first and final step of this path to join the Elohim as Joseph Smith suggests in King Follett? The anointing of the Davidic Servant as the Word of God is how Jesus was first anointed.

Jesus Christ - the Anointed Savior ... Or does it mean the Savior of the Anointed?

Are the two witnesses anointed to this same end? Are they participants of the davidic covenant in that they receive the same cup and same baptism but to lesser degrees as Jesus suggested to James and John?

[Robbinius]

I'm loving the article so far. I'm a bit puzzled at a couple of things:

The 8th angel (The Davidic Angel) is then seated upon the throne of Adam. The Destroyer - the Angel of the Lord - is the one who is then seated upon the throne by the Father. He is the one who works the vineyard. John describes him as "He who sitteth upon the throne."

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I'm not sure I'm following you here. It appears you are saying Revelation 5:12 is referring to Abaddon. However, I believe this is referring to Jesus who is the Lamb slain. I could be missing it, but where do we have record of Abaddon being slain? I realize the two Olive branches will be slain in defending Jerusalem from the great and terrible army, but is that sacrificial? After all, there are two there who are killed. That seems like a different thing than what this verse is taking about.

I truly appreciate the questions. I'm having a rough couple of days, so there's nothing like discussing these mysteries that perks my spirits up.

I'll first answer the question as to what I'm saying and then add in what I've suggested elsewhere.

Firstly, are these two verses about Jesus or the Davidic Servant? Yes. This understanding applies to what I'm saying and also to what I've suggested.

What I'm saying is Jesus Christ is the Lamb who was slain in verse 12 ... to what end? To receive: power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. For Himself? Of course not!!! Then for whom? The answer is in the next verse: "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever"

Who "sitteth" upon the throne? The Angel of the Lord. When John gets to the point where he ties this all together, what does he do? Mystery solved.

So the achievements of Jesus Christ are first for his Heir, the Davidic heir - and then because of His heir, they are then unto Him ... and for how long? Forever and ever (Ezekiel 37.)

That's seven rewards for the seven accomplishments of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11. The primary goal & accomplishment of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is ransoming His heir. On the day of Atonement, the High Priest makes Atonement for himself, his house, then Israel. A lamb per house on Passover is a clear indication that these sacrifices (yes plural sacrifices of Saviors for their Sons) are extremely intimate / personal primarily for a person (firstborn), then their house....then everyone else. That's why passover is all about passing over the firstborn. Without Jesus, His firstborn could never ascend to his own throne and receive his everlasting name. So, yes Jesus it the firstborn of Elohim, but the Holy Ghost is becoming the firstborn of Jesus Christ. The spiritually begotten son made Holy by Jesus Christ. The...Holy ...Spirit.

And who makes Atonement for everyone else? The High Priest of Israel by the blood of the Lamb. This is literally all over the place in regards to the Holy Ghost, the Davidic Servant, and the Angel of the Lord. All three have the keys of judgement - what is judgment if not Atonement?

I realize Jesus' dominion before being born to Mary was worlds, but He still had more to receive after the atonement. We do know that Jesus received a marked difference after His resurrection, as noted by Him referring to Himself and His Father both being perfect in 3 Nephi 12:48. But He ascended to the higher level of His Father after performing His atonement, which would probably indicate a reception of more "power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing," would it not? I don't think the DS is the only being who increases through the execution of duty in this round.

I do agree that 13 refers to both, and that the 8th angel is he who sitteth upon the throne.

This will make plain, clear sense to you I'm certain: As the Lucifer sought glory for himself, how do the actual Gods contrast? Jesus couldn't stop giving glory to His father and the ends of His sacrifice are for His heir, His house, Israel, then everybody else. Is that PC? Nope. True nonetheless.

So is it any wonder that when we take a closer look at the Gods they're constantly giving glory and power elsewhere? Michael vacates his throne for crying out loud - allows someone else to rule upon it. And who is that person? What's his name? That's right we don't know! He's been pruning the vineyard in freaking anonymity.

And Jesus? What's He all about? Blessing and glory and honor and power be unto Himself? Of course not. And who are the 24 elders toe declare the lamb as "worthy?" Certainly they have no dominion to make such a declaration unless these 24 elders are higher than Jesus Christ. Unless their declaration of "worthiness" pertains to the Angel of the Lord - "The sacrifice is worthy to ransom this man permanently from manhood into an everlasting dominion of godhood.

You literally can't find a legitimate God who gives glory unto himself.

As far as what I've suggested: There are two lambs sacrificed for seven days during the levite cleansing ritual. A morning lamb and an evening lamb. An alpha (dawn) lamb and an omega (dusk) lamb. So, could Jesus and the Davidic Servant be the first and final step of this path to join the Elohim as Joseph Smith suggests in King Follett? The anointing of the Davidic Servant as the Word of God is how Jesus was first anointed.

Jesus Christ - the Anointed Savior ... Or does it mean the Savior of the Anointed?

Are the two witnesses anointed to this same end? Are they participants of the davidic covenant in that they receive the same cup and same baptism but to lesser degrees as Jesus suggested to James and John?

I'm really sorry to hear things aren't going well. I was starting to wonder if you were ok after this went a full day unanswered. That's quite unlike the Alaris I know I'm sorry to hear that though and hope things pick up.

Your answers were spot on. I see it the exact same way, and didn't mean to suggest a selfish motive on the Savior's behalf. Rather just speaking to his ascending to a higher level which would, of course entail more glory, etc. I completely agree on His giving those blessings in v12 to the Heir in v13. We agree that Jesus is the Lamb, and that he is offered by the High Priest... Just wanted to clarify, because in the article it sounded like you were saying the DS was also the Lamb slain in v12. Clarified and I appreciate it. We are on the same page.

[Alaris]

I'm loving the article so far. I'm a bit puzzled at a couple of things:

The 8th angel (The Davidic Angel) is then seated upon the throne of Adam. The Destroyer - the Angel of the Lord - is the one who is then seated upon the throne by the Father. He is the one who works the vineyard. John describes him as "He who sitteth upon the throne."

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I'm not sure I'm following you here. It appears you are saying Revelation 5:12 is referring to Abaddon. However, I believe this is referring to Jesus who is the Lamb slain. I could be missing it, but where do we have record of Abaddon being slain? I realize the two Olive branches will be slain in defending Jerusalem from the great and terrible army, but is that sacrificial? After all, there are two there who are killed. That seems like a different thing than what this verse is taking about.

I truly appreciate the questions. I'm having a rough couple of days, so there's nothing like discussing these mysteries that perks my spirits up.

I'll first answer the question as to what I'm saying and then add in what I've suggested elsewhere.

Firstly, are these two verses about Jesus or the Davidic Servant? Yes. This understanding applies to what I'm saying and also to what I've suggested.

What I'm saying is Jesus Christ is the Lamb who was slain in verse 12 ... to what end? To receive: power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. For Himself? Of course not!!! Then for whom? The answer is in the next verse: "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever"

Who "sitteth" upon the throne? The Angel of the Lord. When John gets to the point where he ties this all together, what does he do? Mystery solved.

So the achievements of Jesus Christ are first for his Heir, the Davidic heir - and then because of His heir, they are then unto Him ... and for how long? Forever and ever (Ezekiel 37.)

That's seven rewards for the seven accomplishments of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11. The primary goal & accomplishment of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is ransoming His heir. On the day of Atonement, the High Priest makes Atonement for himself, his house, then Israel. A lamb per house on Passover is a clear indication that these sacrifices (yes plural sacrifices of Saviors for their Sons) are extremely intimate / personal primarily for a person (firstborn), then their house....then everyone else. That's why passover is all about passing over the firstborn. Without Jesus, His firstborn could never ascend to his own throne and receive his everlasting name. So, yes Jesus it the firstborn of Elohim, but the Holy Ghost is becoming the firstborn of Jesus Christ. The spiritually begotten son made Holy by Jesus Christ. The...Holy ...Spirit.

And who makes Atonement for everyone else? The High Priest of Israel by the blood of the Lamb. This is literally all over the place in regards to the Holy Ghost, the Davidic Servant, and the Angel of the Lord. All three have the keys of judgement - what is judgment if not Atonement?

I realize Jesus' dominion before being born to Mary was worlds, but He still had more to receive after the atonement. We do know that Jesus received a marked difference after His resurrection, as noted by Him referring to Himself and His Father both being perfect in 3 Nephi 12:48. But He ascended to the higher level of His Father after performing His atonement, which would probably indicate a reception of more "power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing," would it not? I don't think the DS is the only being who increases through the execution of duty in this round.

I do agree that 13 refers to both, and that the 8th angel is he who sitteth upon the throne.

This will make plain, clear sense to you I'm certain: As the Lucifer sought glory for himself, how do the actual Gods contrast? Jesus couldn't stop giving glory to His father and the ends of His sacrifice are for His heir, His house, Israel, then everybody else. Is that PC? Nope. True nonetheless.

So is it any wonder that when we take a closer look at the Gods they're constantly giving glory and power elsewhere? Michael vacates his throne for crying out loud - allows someone else to rule upon it. And who is that person? What's his name? That's right we don't know! He's been pruning the vineyard in freaking anonymity.

And Jesus? What's He all about? Blessing and glory and honor and power be unto Himself? Of course not. And who are the 24 elders toe declare the lamb as "worthy?" Certainly they have no dominion to make such a declaration unless these 24 elders are higher than Jesus Christ. Unless their declaration of "worthiness" pertains to the Angel of the Lord - "The sacrifice is worthy to ransom this man permanently from manhood into an everlasting dominion of godhood.

You literally can't find a legitimate God who gives glory unto himself.

As far as what I've suggested: There are two lambs sacrificed for seven days during the levite cleansing ritual. A morning lamb and an evening lamb. An alpha (dawn) lamb and an omega (dusk) lamb. So, could Jesus and the Davidic Servant be the first and final step of this path to join the Elohim as Joseph Smith suggests in King Follett? The anointing of the Davidic Servant as the Word of God is how Jesus was first anointed.

Jesus Christ - the Anointed Savior ... Or does it mean the Savior of the Anointed?

Are the two witnesses anointed to this same end? Are they participants of the davidic covenant in that they receive the same cup and same baptism but to lesser degrees as Jesus suggested to James and John?

I'm really sorry to hear things aren't going well. I was starting to wonder if you were ok after this went a full day unanswered. That's quite unlike the Alaris I know I'm sorry to hear that though and hope things pick up.

Your answers were spot on. I see it the exact same way, and didn't mean to suggest a selfish motive on the Savior's behalf. Rather just speaking to his ascending to a higher level which would, of course go entail more glory, etc. I completely agree on His giving those blessings in v12 to the Heir in v13. We agree that Jesus is the Lamb, and that he is offered by the High Priest... Just wanted to clarify, because in the article it sounded like you were saying the DS was also the Lamb slain in v12. Clarified and I appreciate it. We are on the same page.

A weakness of mine in writing for sure, but at least I don't use as many pronouns as are found in the scriptures. I can see the godhood 101 courses in heaven where one is called mysteries 101:

Chapter 1: pronouns are your best friend
Chapter 2: code words. Repeat them as often as you like and folks still won't see what you're getting at
Chapter 3: Parables
Etc

I'll edit the article for clarity. Thank you!

[nightlight]

I'm loving the article so far. I'm a bit puzzled at a couple of things:

The 8th angel (The Davidic Angel) is then seated upon the throne of Adam. The Destroyer - the Angel of the Lord - is the one who is then seated upon the throne by the Father. He is the one who works the vineyard. John describes him as "He who sitteth upon the throne."

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I'm not sure I'm following you here. It appears you are saying Revelation 5:12 is referring to Abaddon. However, I believe this is referring to Jesus who is the Lamb slain. I could be missing it, but where do we have record of Abaddon being slain? I realize the two Olive branches will be slain in defending Jerusalem from the great and terrible army, but is that sacrificial? After all, there are two there who are killed. That seems like a different thing than what this verse is taking about.

I truly appreciate the questions. I'm having a rough couple of days, so there's nothing like discussing these mysteries that perks my spirits up.

I'll first answer the question as to what I'm saying and then add in what I've suggested elsewhere.

Firstly, are these two verses about Jesus or the Davidic Servant? Yes. This understanding applies to what I'm saying and also to what I've suggested.

What I'm saying is Jesus Christ is the Lamb who was slain in verse 12 ... to what end? To receive: power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. For Himself? Of course not!!! Then for whom? The answer is in the next verse: "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever"

Who "sitteth" upon the throne? The Angel of the Lord. When John gets to the point where he ties this all together, what does he do? Mystery solved.

So the achievements of Jesus Christ are first for his Heir, the Davidic heir - and then because of His heir, they are then unto Him ... and for how long? Forever and ever (Ezekiel 37.)

That's seven rewards for the seven accomplishments of the Rod of Jesse in Isaiah 11. The primary goal & accomplishment of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is ransoming His heir. On the day of Atonement, the High Priest makes Atonement for himself, his house, then Israel. A lamb per house on Passover is a clear indication that these sacrifices (yes plural sacrifices of Saviors for their Sons) are extremely intimate / personal primarily for a person (firstborn), then their house....then everyone else. That's why passover is all about passing over the firstborn. Without Jesus, His firstborn could never ascend to his own throne and receive his everlasting name. So, yes Jesus it the firstborn of Elohim, but the Holy Ghost is becoming the firstborn of Jesus Christ. The spiritually begotten son made Holy by Jesus Christ. The...Holy ...Spirit.

And who makes Atonement for everyone else? The High Priest of Israel by the blood of the Lamb. This is literally all over the place in regards to the Holy Ghost, the Davidic Servant, and the Angel of the Lord. All three have the keys of judgement - what is judgment if not Atonement?

I realize Jesus' dominion before being born to Mary was worlds, but He still had more to receive after the atonement. We do know that Jesus received a marked difference after His resurrection, as noted by Him referring to Himself and His Father both being perfect in 3 Nephi 12:48. But He ascended to the higher level of His Father after performing His atonement, which would probably indicate a reception of more "power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing," would it not? I don't think the DS is the only being who increases through the execution of duty in this round.

I do agree that 13 refers to both, and that the 8th angel is he who sitteth upon the throne.

This will make plain, clear sense to you I'm certain: As the Lucifer sought glory for himself, how do the actual Gods contrast? Jesus couldn't stop giving glory to His father and the ends of His sacrifice are for His heir, His house, Israel, then everybody else. Is that PC? Nope. True nonetheless.

So is it any wonder that when we take a closer look at the Gods they're constantly giving glory and power elsewhere? Michael vacates his throne for crying out loud - allows someone else to rule upon it. And who is that person? What's his name? That's right we don't know! He's been pruning the vineyard in freaking anonymity.

And Jesus? What's He all about? Blessing and glory and honor and power be unto Himself? Of course not. And who are the 24 elders toe declare the lamb as "worthy?" Certainly they have no dominion to make such a declaration unless these 24 elders are higher than Jesus Christ. Unless their declaration of "worthiness" pertains to the Angel of the Lord - "The sacrifice is worthy to ransom this man permanently from manhood into an everlasting dominion of godhood.

You literally can't find a legitimate God who gives glory unto himself.

As far as what I've suggested: There are two lambs sacrificed for seven days during the levite cleansing ritual. A morning lamb and an evening lamb. An alpha (dawn) lamb and an omega (dusk) lamb. So, could Jesus and the Davidic Servant be the first and final step of this path to join the Elohim as Joseph Smith suggests in King Follett? The anointing of the Davidic Servant as the Word of God is how Jesus was first anointed.

Jesus Christ - the Anointed Savior ... Or does it mean the Savior of the Anointed?

Are the two witnesses anointed to this same end? Are they participants of the davidic covenant in that they receive the same cup and same baptism but to lesser degrees as Jesus suggested to James and John?

Reading how you talked about the jews sacrificing a lamb in the morning...and then another lamb at night, made me think of Elijah

1st Kings 17

6And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook.
---------
Anyway.... I always assumed the DS was one of the Two Witnesses. Maybe the second is the one the DS gives his glory to.

If its isnt...who do you think the DS will give his place to? Assuming, like you said, all Gods make way for an heir.


Also...do you think the DS is old, young, or unborn?